Have you ever been open to the idea that The Lord can plunge you into deep deception...?
A deception so deep that you may end up realizing only after death!

You disagree? Well I agree, just like this man's message:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0W2svdpSs8?si=yRTgLY95LnHt6WRr

No God except Allah is a deceiver

MightySparrow:
No God except Allah is a deceiver

.

preciousee17:


Absolutely.
It's just that though God wouldn't steal, He can organize for your properties to be stolen
Though God doesn't lie, He can release lying spirits to you
Though won't deceive you, he can allow a spirit of deception to overshadow you.

So are you saying that evil that happens to good people comes from God too?

Michael547:

So are you saying that evil that happens to good people comes from God too?

Evil happening to good people? Coming from God?
Nah! I didn't say that.
That's very much the devil's handwork, but yes, God gives approval to any and everything that happens. To God, you're being tested, and according to Scriptures, God doesn't allow you to be tempted/tested more than what you can handle.

But let's look at this good people from another angle entirely: many times, those good people are just reaping what had been sown. Being good doesn't exactly exempt us from every punishment fir previous evil.

preciousee17:


Evil happening to good people? Coming from God?
Nah! I didn't say that.
That's very much the devil's handwork, but yes, God gives approval to any and everything that happens. To God, you're being tested, and according to Scriptures, God doesn't allow you to be tempted/tested more than what you can handle.

But let's look at this good people from another angle entirely: many times, those good people are just reaping what had been sown. Being good doesn't exactly exempt us from every punishment fir previous evil.

So God 'approves' temptations that comes from the devil? Even when people change from their bad ways, he approves the devil to punish them for their past sins?

Michael547:

So God 'approves' temptations that comes from the devil? Even when people change from their bad ways, he approves the devil to punish them for their past sins?

Oh yes. He Himself might even punish you if the devil doesn't, infact, He usually punishes the ones He loves more thoroughly

preciousee17:


Oh yes. He Himself might even punish you if the devil doesn't, infact, He usually punishes the ones He loves more thoroughly

So therefore the devil works for God right?

Michael547:

So therefore the devil works for God right?

Devil has his own motives. But whenever God commands... Whenever God's Will needs to be done, even the devil obeys.
But the Devil being a full-time servant of God? No.

preciousee17:


Devil has his own motives. But whenever God commands... Whenever God's Will needs to be done, even the devil obeys.
But the Devil being a full-time servant of God? No.

Buy you stated up there in your submission that God 'gives approval to anything and everything that happens' which would include all works of the devil. So I find it hard why we label the devil an evil person when his acts are actually the will of God according to you?

preciousee17:
realizing only after death!

realizing with what mind, dead mind ?

Please dead people don't realize anything.
They know nothing anymore and can never be said to be deceived at that state of their death, just like a new born born baby can never be said to be deceived at that state of birth.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

paxonel:
realizing with what mind, dead mind ?

Please dead people don't realize anything.
They know nothing anymore and can never be said to be deceived at that state of their death, just like a new born born baby can never be said to be deceived at that state of birth.

Sorry sir, but I'm afraid the mind never dies.
Your mind is your Soul, it's Spirit-like. Spirits don't die.
If you're a Christian, check the story of Prophet Samuel whose Soul was summoned from the grave by Paul, and he still remembered things properly.
Also make reference to the Transfiguration of Jesus on the mountain where He was found speaking to Moses and Elijah, people who had died for ages.
Any other Bible passage to uphold your point?

If you're non-christian, sorry I may not be able to get an elaborate explanation for you.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

This scripture, I think you need to explain to me how you understand it. Cos after reading above and below, especially verse 19, it is understood that according to the Paul, If anybody accepts to walk with Christ, to live for Christ, then that person's previous sins and other lifestyle has been forgotten (forgiven) and everything starts afresh for the person. All things become new.

Michael547:

Buy you stated up there in your submission that God 'gives approval to anything and everything that happens' which would include all works of the devil. So I find it hard why we label the devil an evil person when his acts are actually the will of God according to you?

God gives approval to everything. Yes.
Does it mean that everything God approves is His Will? You'll answer that later.

God is a Just Judge. No partiality, apart from that stuff called Grace, and Grace is meant to help you repent.
The Devil is an accuser, more like a lawyer.

Let's fit ourselves in a real-world scenario.
A person (John) steals 5k from a Lady, because of that the lady couldn't buy her monthly drugs, she got sicker, lost her job due to not being able to work, later died after months of trying to survive on side hustles.

Now somehow, a lawyer brings the case up to court, with all the evidence that John stole from this lady, made her lose her job and later caused her death.

You are the judge, now if John is actually found guilty of these charges:
Theft and indirect Manslaughter (murder),
What would be your verdict against John?

Plot twist: John is your son by the way.

Question: Whatever your verdict is, does this mean that was your original plan for John your son, or you're just doing what is right as a Judge?

preciousee17:


God gives approval to everything. Yes.
Does it mean that everything God approves is His Will? You'll answer that later.

God is a Just Judge. No partiality, apart from that stuff called Grace, and Grace is meant to help you repent.
The Devil is an accuser, more like a lawyer.

Let's fit ourselves in a real-world scenario.
A person (John) steals 5k from a Lady, because of that the lady couldn't buy her monthly drugs, she got sicker, lost her job due to not being able to work, later died after months of trying to survive on side hustles.

Now somehow, a lawyer brings the case up to court, with all the evidence that John stole from this lady, made her lose her job and later caused her death.

You are the judge, now if John is actually found guilty of these charges:
Theft and indirect Manslaughter (murder),
What would be your verdict against John?

Plot twist: John is your son by the way.

Question: Whatever your verdict is, does this mean that was your original plan for John your son, or you're just doing what is right as a Judge?

Please what does it mean to approve? Probably that is where we have issues?

Michael547:

Please what does it mean to approve? Probably that is where we have issues?

Approval... How do I put it?
Before any bad thing (caused by the Devil) happens for instance, the Devil presents what he wants to do and why he wants to do it to God. And God analyzes the petition and gives the devil permission to carry out his request, according to what the victim deserves.

preciousee17:


Approval... How do I put it?
Before any bad thing (caused by the Devil) happens for instance, the Devil presents what he wants to do and why he wants to do it to God. And God analyzes the petition and gives the devil permission to carry out his request, according to what the victim deserves.

So why does God permit the devil to do what he wants to do?

Michael547:

So why does God permit the devil to do what he wants to do?

1.) That's the devil's job.
But to understand my point, you have to answer this my question please?
The devil is the lawyer in this illustration, ready to accuse and persecute those who break the Law.




God gives approval to everything. Yes.
Does it mean that everything God approves is His Will? You'll answer that later.

God is a Just Judge. No partiality, apart from that stuff called Grace, and Grace is meant to help you repent.
The Devil is an accuser, more like a lawyer.

Let's fit ourselves in a real-world scenario.
A person (John) steals 5k from a Lady, because of that the lady couldn't buy her monthly drugs, she got sicker, lost her job due to not being able to work, later died after months of trying to survive on side hustles.

Now somehow, a lawyer brings the case up to court, with all the evidence that John stole from this lady, made her lose her job and later caused her death.

You are the judge, now if John is actually found guilty of these charges:
Theft and indirect Manslaughter (murder),
What would be your verdict against John?

Plot twist: John is your son by the way.

Question: Whatever your verdict is, does this mean that was your original plan for John your son, or you're just doing what is right as a Judge?

preciousee17:


1.) That's the devil's job.
But to understand my point, you have to answer this my question please?
The devil is the lawyer in this illustration, ready to accuse and persecute those who break the Law.




God gives approval to everything. Yes.
Does it mean that everything God approves is His Will? You'll answer that later.

God is a Just Judge. No partiality, apart from that stuff called Grace, and Grace is meant to help you repent.
The Devil is an accuser, more like a lawyer.

Let's fit ourselves in a real-world scenario.
A person (John) steals 5k from a Lady, because of that the lady couldn't buy her monthly drugs, she got sicker, lost her job due to not being able to work, later died after months of trying to survive on side hustles.

Now somehow, a lawyer brings the case up to court, with all the evidence that John stole from this lady, made her lose her job and later caused her death.

You are the judge, now if John is actually found guilty of these charges:
Theft and indirect Manslaughter (murder),
What would be your verdict against John?

Plot twist: John is your son by the way.

Question: Whatever your verdict is, does this mean that was your original plan for John your son, or you're just doing what is right as a Judge?

From your illustration, John Is guilty. So are you implying that the devil fights for justice and that God uses him to accomplish justice? Why do people who do good too suffer? Are we to deny that there are no good people who suffer too?

Michael547:

From your illustration, John Is guilty. So are you implying that the devil fights for justice and that God uses him to accomplish justice? Why do people who do good too suffer? Are we to deny that there are no good people who suffer too?

I hope I'm not annoying, but you didn't answer the question, don't worry about the rest, it's your answers that I will use to answer the rest of your questions.

Question 1: You are the judge, now if John is actually found guilty of these charges:
Theft and indirect Manslaughter (murder),
What would be your verdict against John?

Plot twist: John is your son by the way.

Question: Whatever your verdict is, does this mean that was your original plan for John your son, or you're just doing what is right as a Judge?

preciousee17:


I hope I'm not annoying, but you didn't answer the question, don't worry about the rest, it's your answers that I will use to answer the rest of your questions.

Question 1: You are the judge, now if John is actually found guilty of these charges:
Theft and indirect Manslaughter (murder),
What would be your verdict against John?

Plot twist: John is your son by the way.

Question: Whatever your verdict is, does this mean that was your original plan for John your son, or you're just doing what is right as a Judge?

I beli

preciousee17:


I hope I'm not annoying, but you didn't answer the question, don't worry about the rest, it's your answers that I will use to answer the rest of your questions.

Question 1: You are the judge, now if John is actually found guilty of these charges:
Theft and indirect Manslaughter (murder),
What would be your verdict against John?

Plot twist: John is your son by the way.

Question: Whatever your verdict is, does this mean that was your original plan for John your son, or you're just doing what is right as a Judge?

I believe John should serve the punishment for his sins because he guilty. That is the right thing to do. So now please answer the questions I raised above in my previous response.

Alright, your response wasn't quite complete but let's carry on...

Michael547:

I believe John should serve the punishment for his sins because he guilty. That is the right thing to do. So now please answer the questions I raised above in my previous response.

Michael547:

From your illustration, John Is guilty. So are you implying that the devil fights for justice and that God uses him to accomplish justice? Why do people who do good too suffer? Are we to deny that there are no good people who suffer too?

Now, from the whole analogy, you've seen that John must suffer, but who's happy in the process? Definitely not the Judge, but the lawyer. Only the lawyer is happy.

Now again, I never said bad things can't happen to good people, infact, if you check well, John wasn't particularly living a bad life when his case was brought back up... This happened many months later...
Most likely, John now had a good job and was living a normal life, but the sin he committed some months ago came back for him.
That's typically the concept of sowing and reaping. Many times we reap, just know that someone had sown a seed.
Remember this phrase, “The Long Arm Of Justice...” you can almost never outrun justice.

The devil doesn't fight for justice, no. His aim is to destroy people with punishment, God only allows punishment that you can bear. So John for instance may be locked up for years, that's his punishment.
If he comes out from prison with a hard heart, ready to cause some serious havoc, then the devil's plan is achieved. If he comes out from prison with a repentant heart, and a determination never to commit those sort of little crimes again, then God's plan is achieved.

But the aim is: Justice must be served. Every seed that was sown has to be reaped.

2. God doesn't use the devil to accomplish justice, rather it's the other way round... The devil uses the excuse of serving justice to actually gain permission to persecute people.
As I always say, whenever the devil doesn't, God as a Just Judge, will judge you and make you bear the consequences for your wrongs simply because He is Just.
And the people He loves the most (most likely good people) will suffer the most here on Earth.
Why? So that they will serve the punishments for all their sins before death, and on the Judgement Day, there'll be no sin that they'll need to be punished for again (since they've already suffered all the punishments here on Earth).
Meanwhile those who didn't suffer for their sins will start arranging to do that on the Day of Judgement...

The more I type, the more I feel like I've not said enough.
My explanations are not the final say, there are other correct points of views, but everything I say is Biblical and you can request for prove wherever you disagree.

Another nice and simple reason why good people suffer is simply Mistakes, they make mistakes that have consequences.

preciousee17:
Alright, your response wasn't quite complete but let's carry on...




Now, from the whole analogy, you've seen that John must suffer, but who's happy in the process? Definitely not the Judge, but the lawyer. Only the lawyer is happy.

Now again, I never said bad things can't happen to good people, infact, if you check well, John wasn't particularly living a bad life when his case was brought back up... This happened many months later...
Most likely, John now had a good job and was living a normal life, but the sin he committed some months ago came back for him.
That's typically the concept of sowing and reaping. Many times we reap, just know that someone had sown a seed.
Remember this phrase, “The Long Arm Of Justice...” you can almost never outrun justice.

The devil doesn't fight for justice, no. His aim is to destroy people with punishment, God only allows punishment that you can bear. So John for instance may be locked up for years, that's his punishment.
If he comes out from prison with a hard heart, ready to cause some serious havoc, then the devil's plan is achieved. If he comes out from prison with a repentant heart, and a determination never to commit those sort of little crimes again, then God's plan is achieved.

But the aim is: Justice must be served. Every seed that was sown has to be reaped.

2. God doesn't use the devil to accomplish justice, rather it's the other way round... The devil uses the excuse of serving justice to actually gain permission to persecute people.
As I always say, whenever the devil doesn't, God as a Just Judge, will judge you and make you bear the consequences for your wrongs simply because He is Just.
And the people He loves the most (most likely good people) will suffer the most here on Earth.
Why? So that they will serve the punishments for all their sins before death, and on the Judgement Day, there'll be no sin that they'll need to be punished for again (since they've already suffered all the punishments here on Earth).
Meanwhile those who didn't suffer for their sins will start arranging to do that on the Day of Judgement...

The more I type, the more I feel like I've not said enough.
My explanations are not the final say, there are other correct points of views, but everything I say is Biblical and you can request for prove wherever you disagree.

Another nice and simple reason why good people suffer is simply Mistakes, they make mistakes that have consequences.

Alright....So why does God approves the devil to cause suffering to good people, who are not like John? Is that Justice? Remember that you said God approves anything and everything that happens.

Michael547:

I beli I believe John should serve the punishment for his sins because he guilty. That is the right thing to do. So now please answer the questions I raised above in my previous response.

A last reason (actually another interpretation of the above reasons) is Baptism Of Fire... This is the Christians POV
We must suffer to prove ourselves worthy of the Kingdom Of God.
Not like it's random suffering here and there. It's still more like reaping from the evil they committed when they were still sinners.
But this particular suffering just comes because you chose to follow Christ. Like people laughing at you and calling you virgin Mary (and as a sinner you had been laughing at people who wore torn shoes).
Or being hated at your job place because you tell the truth (and as a sinner, you had hated your class perfect because she always told the truth).
Or worse, being beaten for preaching (and as a sinner, you had lied against people and caused them to be beaten). Many examples

On the day of judgement, these are the little things that people will suffer for. But you'll be shocked to realize that you've already suffered yours while on Earth.

The last one I'll point out is inherited suffering.
That one is simple:

A child can inherit the father's wealth
A child can also inherit the father's debt.

A sinner can inherit blessings from the parents or the environment he/she finds him/herself.
A normal person can also inherit punishment from the parents or the environment he/she finds him/herself.
Being born again usually reduces the things we inherit, and yes, if you're setting things right with God, He'll show you the source of the problem and you can get rid of it. But the unbeliever won't even know.

Michael547:

Alright....So why does God approves the devil to cause suffering to good people, who are not like John? Is that Justice? Remember that you said God approves anything and everything that happens.

I had to break my response into two parts, you can read the second part and re-ask this if you feel this point hasn't been properly addressed.

preciousee17:


A last reason (actually another interpretation of the above reasons) is Baptism Of Fire... This is the Christians POV
We must suffer to prove ourselves worthy of the Kingdom Of God.
Not like it's random suffering here and there. It's still more like reaping from the evil they committed when they were still sinners.
But this particular suffering just comes because you chose to follow Christ. Like people laughing at you and calling you virgin Mary (and as a sinner you had been laughing at people who wore torn shoes).
Or being hated at your job place because you tell the truth (and as a sinner, you had hated your class perfect because she always told the truth).
Or worse, being beaten for preaching (and as a sinner, you had lied against people and caused them to be beaten). Many examples

On the day of judgement, these are the little things that people will suffer for. But you'll be shocked to realize that you've already suffered yours while on Earth.

The last one I'll point out is inherited suffering.
That one is simple:

A child can inherit the father's wealth
A child can also inherit the father's debt.

A sinner can inherit blessings from the parents or the environment he/she finds him/herself.
A normal person can also inherit punishment from the parents or the environment he/she finds him/herself.
Being born again usually reduces the things we inherit, and yes, if you're setting things right with God, He'll show you the source of the problem and you can get rid of it. But the unbeliever won't even know.

OK I get your point......but what is the source of the suffering that shows we are worthy of the kingdom of God? Is it from the Devil or God or both of them?

preciousee17:
Have you ever been open to the idea that The Lord can plunge you into deep deception...?
A deception so deep that you may end up realizing only after death!

You disagree? Well I agree, just like this man's message:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0W2svdpSs8?si=yRTgLY95LnHt6WRr

I'm so blessed to come across your thread. This is the truest and most humbling Truth.
Grace multiplied to you.

Michael547:

OK I get your point......but what is the source of the suffering that shows we are worthy of the kingdom of God? Is it from the Devil or God or both of them?

Both.
I'll be tempted to say mostly from God, but the reality is that it's actually mostly from the devil.
For him, he's trying his best to make you disobey God and compromise.

Let me try and visualize.

God sends a person (John) to preach to the management of a club at closing hours and the Holy Spirit makes it clear that he shouldn't accept anything from them, like money or drink.
The devil goes ahead and creates a scheme, he reminds God of when John stole the 5k and tell God that because if this, he wants to make John to lose his money. So God approves this as part of the punishment for John's theft.

Now John loses his money in the bus while going to the club to preach and only has enough money to pay hos way coming.
John arrives and pays his fare, he now realizes that he is completely broke and helpless (just as that Lady was helpless when he stole her cash).
He doesn't remember all these, but he must teach

After teaching, the managers of the club may learn something good and decide to repent, then they offer John 1k for transport.
(Remember, he isn't meant to collect money from them. Why? Because that's dirty money. And he's also serving a punishment and must suffer sufficiently so that that sin he had committed can be forgotten.)

John will surely be tempted, the devil will say all sorts of stuff to make him accept.

But let's assume John didn't accept and ends up walking for about 6hrs to get back home.

That's a classic example of Baptism Of Fire. You're suffering because you chose to obey God.
In all that, you just served the punishment for the other sin you committed.

But how do you know that your suffering is making you worthy of the Kingdom Of God? Well, first thing is to clear yourself from sinful acts, live in God, live for God, walk in His light, then if anything happens, He'll let you understand why. Sooner or later.

Michael547:

OK I get your point......but what is the source of the suffering that shows we are worthy of the kingdom of God? Is it from the Devil or God or both of them?

To add to everything I said, if John violates God and accepts that gift.
He may end up entering a bus that was bound for accidents and God may make sure that He us well injured in that accident. Just as he caused a woman to die...

That's a wild example.

But we don't walk around pointing each and everything and deciding whether it came from God or not.
We just walk in the light and follow God's directions.
Then we can be sure that whatever happens to us, God knows and has arranged what we should do next, because we are walking with Him.

preciousee17:


To add to everything I said, if John violates God and accepts that gift.
He may end up entering a bus that was bound for accidents and God may make sure that He us well injured in that accident. Just as he caused a woman to die...

That's a wild example.

But we don't walk around pointing each and everything and deciding whether it came from God or not.
We just walk in the light and follow God's directions.
Then we can be sure that whatever happens to us, God knows and has arranged what we should do next, because we are walking with Him.

Alright thanks for your submission.....please I want you to read James 1:12, 13 and explain what you understand.

Michael547:

Alright thanks for your submission.....please I want you to read James 1:12, 13 and explain what you understand.

You're welcome sir.

I don't really know what to say, I've read from verse 1-18 for full context.
It seems to console Believers that whenever they pass through tough times, they should endure, that a reward is coming.
Then it goes on to point out that God doesn't tempt people.

It sounds like the Baptism Of Fire that I was insinuating... Where everyone who wants to follow Christ must end up suffering simply because of that decision. I think there's an explanation you have for me?

preciousee17:


You're welcome sir.

I don't really know what to say, I've read from verse 1-18 for full context.
It seems to console Believers that whenever they pass through tough times, they should endure, that a reward is coming.
Then it goes on to point out that God doesn't tempt people.

It sounds like the Baptism Of Fire that I was insinuating... Where everyone who wants to follow Christ must end up suffering simply because of that decision. I think there's an explanation you have for me?

What does verse 13 say about the source of the suffering a Christian suffers? Does that verse say it comes from God?