Notice: For anyone who is coming here because the thread is bulky, please don't bother to read everything line by line looking for the atheists' reply cos there's no reply yet, only frantic useless arguments from both parties. Thanks.


Hello again NL... How's it going?

Recently I've been having many questions for atheists and since I don't have any atheist around me, I've decided to come to Nairaland. Maybe you guys will have a suitable answer for me.
And please, it's not to incite insultive arguments. I won't insult anyone here and I'm begging others not to.

Okay, here's my question, and it goes out to Africans:

If there's no God, and the supernatural realm is just a figment of our imagination, then how do we explain these kind of cases —
For instance, a man steals a village property and no one knows about it. The village gathers everyone and asks and there's no response.
The village gives an ultimatum, and after that, the person is to run mad or fall sick or die.
Eventually, after the deadline, someone dies while confessing.

The question is, how does this always work? (If anyone has any experience on this, please share... I'll share mine too)

Personally, my dad had a friend, someone that was always willing to work for him for any little pay. He usually helped us to cut coconuts and everything went smooth, but my dad always gave hints that he's a cunny person.
One fateful day, the man came to the front of our compound and was just sitting by the road, he couldn't speak, he seemed all weak... Many people tried questioning him but no response, he couldn't eat also when we offered, he later came into our compound and was just sitting by the wall.
He later left, and about three days later, he died and decayed on the road.
We later realized that he had stolen something and a charm was sent after the thief.
We later learnt that people didn't want to bury him because of the nature of his death and because if you do, the charm will hit you too.

Our atheists in the house, let's hear from you please...?


Notice: For anyone who is coming here because the thread is bulky, please don't bother to read everything line by line looking for the atheists' reply cos there's no reply yet, only frantic useless arguments from both parties. Thanks.

How does this prove the existence of any deity?

Who confirmed what killed the man?

Another instance is the one on land disputes...
Usually, once in a while, when someone takes another person's land and plants or builds, and the owner reports it to the village head, after some enquires are made and tye village can't find who is planting on someone else's land, they usually just make a straight-up decision.
They will make some incantations on the land and use a red cloth and some palm leaves to mark the boundary of that land.

And of anyone (even the real owner or an innocent person) steps a foot into that land, the person dies.

So that's it, please is there a different explanation?

Anyone with experience of this too?

gsegun43:
How does this prove the existence of any deity?

Who confirmed what killed the man?

Forget my example if that will help.

The idea is that a charm is sent after a thief and the charm always finds a way to affect the thief exactly as the village priest describes.

gsegun43:
How does this prove the existence of any deity?

Who confirmed what killed the man?

As for my example, it's also similar with other cultures, by the way you die, people can tell if you died because of a charm. Because it's a recurring matter, anyone who dies by charm always dies in the exact same pattern, depending on the culture or community.

Now, I was trying to tell my story from my ignorant and unbiased point of view back then when it happened in my childhood

Remember I mentioned that nobody buried him (or touched his dead body on the road).
This was because the elderly people saw the pattern of his death and realized that it's the normal pattern of death for people who are affected by a charm. And it's a law that no one should bury the dead bodies of those types of people.
Later evidences reveal that he actually, was the thief.

ANormalHuman:


As for my example, it's also similar with other cultures, by the way you die, people can tell if you died because of a charm. Because it's a recurring matter, anyone who dies by charm always dies in the exact same pattern, depending on the culture or community.

Now, I was trying to tell my story from my ignorant and unbiased point of view back then when it happened in my childhood

Remember I mentioned that nobody buried him (or touched his dead body on the road).
This was because the elderly people saw the pattern of his death and realized that it's the normal pattern of death for people who are affected by a charm. And it's a law that no one should bury the dead bodies of those types of people.
Later evidences reveal that he actually, was the thief.

These are bogus claims and superstitious beliefs with no concrete evidence.

Also, since we are talking about the supernatural, let me also ask atheist their Point of Views on how the Earth began...

There's always the question of a First Cause, the origin of everything.
Scientists gather that it is the big bang or something similar... But the particles in the big bang needs to have a first cause too, which would be?
The pattern of looking for the cause of the first cause will continue forever in any scientific explanation, unless we arrive at an uncaused first cause.
Just like a painter paints his work, but he in himself, was not painted (the way we think)

Another argument is that simple things kept on becoming more and more complex and later gave birth to complex life-forms which later gave birth to humans and other animals.
But we've all seen that if something is left in it's original state here on Earth, the thing doesn't become better and better, instead it degrades into nothingness with time, just like any energy chain or food chain.
So why do we always say it the other way round?


So yh, to atheists, hint me on what you think about our creation

Keep scrolling...

MrsTwrite:
Keep scrolling...

You're not an atheist right?

Let me watch and see what's going on here!

I assume no serious atheist has seen this, so let me bring this up again

Jargons.

Still no serious atheist?

But honestly, when you have no answer to a question, should your first instinct lead you to start insulting? Or maybe to start making false claims in order to render the question useless?

I dunno, just checking, more replies are appreciated.

ANormalHuman:
■ Okay, here's my question, and it goes out to Africans:

If there's no God, and the supernatural realm is just a figment of our imagination, then how do we explain these kind of cases —
For instance, a man steals a village property and no one knows about it. The village gathers everyone and asks and there's no response.
The village gives an ultimatum, and after that, the person is to run mad or fall sick or die.
Eventually, after the deadline, someone dies while confessing.
The question is, how does this [i]always work? (If anyone has any experience on this, please share... I'll share mine too) [/i]

It doesn't always "work". As a matter of fact, if you go to the same villages, and dig for truth, you will find that so many known thieves roam and probably even rule over the same villagers with them, the villagers,being helpless against the thieves.

As for your father's friend, he could have been murdered and maybe framed after his death as a thief. Sadly, since near none of your village deaths are thoroughly investjgated, and people are all too quick to jump to blind conclusions about these things, we may never know the real truth.

Kobojunkie:
It doesn't always "work". As a matter of fact, if you go to the same villages, and dig for truth, you will find that so many known thieves roam and probably even rule over the same villagers with them, the villagers,being helpless against the thieves.

Yes true, not all of them work.
And I was asking about the ones that always work, why do they always work...?
And the second point on thieves ruling villages, yes that's s possible thing, there's corruption in every aspect.
But I wasn't aiming to take a dig at corrupt people whatsoever, I was just wondering, if the spirit realm is not real, why do some babalawo charms always work exactly as they describe

As for your father's friend, he could have been murdered and maybe framed after his death as a thief. Sadly, since near none of your village deaths are thoroughly investigated, and people are all too quick to jump to blind conclusions about these things, we may never know the real truth.

That's a valid point. He couldn't have been betrayed by his own friend (who probably knew it was him).

I'm not opposing your observation but let me ask:

1. Is there any drug that causes a person to lose his ability to talk or eat while still keeping the mind intact?
And even then, will the drug prevent the person from writing out his supposed words on a book or something?

The reason I'm asking is this: this man could remember our house properly and he managed to bring himself there unaided from wherever he was... At least his senses were a bit intact. (I feel he came for us to help help).
But at the same time, his mouth couldn't speak, though I think he opened his mouth but words couldn't come out...
If he had something to say, I guess he could draw or write on the sand, but whatever poison he was given didn't create room for him to make any communication.

Then, the man died out of hunger, it's obvious (he had a house and people that could feed for those few days but he couldn't take in food).
And the place he died was a very open place, almost like a mini park/market combined, so it wasn't murder.

2. If this drug exists, how do you think the always manage to nail the right person? (Evidences always prove that the affected person was indeed the thief).
Is it that close friends always betray?
Remember, it's happens across different cultures, not limited to my village.


Yh that's it. I was actually banking on the hopes that other people with similar experiences will share and try to explain as well, and I don't want to go into other things I witnessed first hand (I can say I've witnessed some Nollywood stuff).

Well I still appreciate your input, it keeps us thinking smarter.

ANormalHuman:
■ Yes true, not all of them work.
And I was asking about the ones that always work, why do they always work...? And the second point on thieves ruling villages, yes that's s possible thing, there's corruption in every aspect. But I wasn't aiming to take a dig at corrupt people whatsoever, I was just wondering, if the spirit realm is not real, why do some babalawo charms always work exactly as they describe
■ That's a valid point. He couldn't have been betrayed by his own friend (who probably knew it was him).

1. Thieving and corruption no be stealing from the village people dem both be?

2. Or he may bave been framed by his own friend who knew it wasn't him but saw a good opportunity to pin the theft on a man already dead.

Wicked spirits (demons) exists, even Bible stories confirm that
Don't be fooled
Their wicked influence is felt on mankind
One can also interact with them too in the art called Spiritism, deminism, necromancy, fortune-telling, magic, astrology, witchcraft, etc and many people use this powers to harm others or to protect themselves.

ANormalHuman:
■ I'm not opposing your observation but let me ask:
1. Is there any drug that causes a person to lose his ability to talk or eat while still keeping the mind intact?
And even then, will the drug prevent the person from writing out his supposed words on a book or something?
The reason I'm asking is this: this man could remember our house properly and he managed to bring himself there unaided from wherever he was... At least his senses were a bit intact. (I feel he came for us to help help). But at the same time, his mouth couldn't speak, though I think he opened his mouth but words couldn't come out... If he had something to say, I guess he could draw or write on the sand, but whatever poison he was given didn't create room for him to make any communication.
Then, the man died out of hunger, it's obvious (he had a house and people that could feed for those few days but he couldn't take in food). And the place he died was a very open place, almost like a mini park/market combined, so it wasn't murder.

2. If this drug exists, how do you think the always manage to nail the right person? (Evidences always prove that the affected person was indeed the thief).
Is it that close friends always betray?
Remember, it's happens across different cultures, not limited to my village.
Yh that's it. I was actually banking on the hopes that other people with similar experiences will share and try to explain as well, and I don't want to go into other things I witnessed first hand (I can say I've witnessed some Nollywood stuff).
Well I still appreciate your input, it keeps us thinking smarter.

1. According to your story, the man was unable to speak or eat. How could you tell that his mind was intact even with all that? He remembered places and faces is no confirmation that a mind is intact.

And you say an adult man died out of hunger in 3 days. That's almost impossible since a human adult can exist up to at least 11 days without food and still function OK. And your insistence that his body being found in an open place means he must not have need murdered is baseless. That makes no sense at all.

Sadly, since no autopsy was done, we won't know what really happened or why a man died in such a way.

2. There is possibility that your friend may have been poisoned,yes, but that does not mean he was and since no autopsy was done to determine actual cause of death, there is no telling. All your narrative does is present a possibility for many things including murder.

Kobojunkie:
1. Thieving and corruption no be stealing from the village people dem both be?

2. Or he may bave been framed by his own friend who knew it wasn't him but saw a good opportunity to pin the theft on a man already dead.

Sorry, I meant to say,

That's a valid point. He could have been betrayed by his own friend (who probably knew it was him).

Kobojunkie:
1. According to your story, the man was unable to speak or eat. How could you tell that his mind was intact even with all that? He remembered places and faces is no confirmation that a mind is intact.

And you say an adult man died out of hunger in 3 days. That's almost impossible since a human adult can exist up to at least 11 days without food and still function OK. And your insistence that his body being found in an open place means he must not have need murdered is baseless. That makes no sense at all.

Sadly, since no autopsy was done, we won't know what really happened or why a man died in such a way.

2. There is possibility that your friend may have been poisoned,yes, but that does not mean he was and since no autopsy was done to determine actual cause of death, there is no telling. All your narrative does is present a possibility for many things including murder.

And water?

Kobojunkie:
1. Thieving and corruption no be stealing from the village people dem both be?

2. Or he may bave been framed by his own friend who knew it wasn't him but saw a good opportunity to pin the theft on a man already dead.

I didn't argue with point 1., I accept it.

For 2.
I meant to say it's a valid point you say he was betrayed by his close friend.

Then again you've made a new point, that someone saw an opportunity to lay the blame on a dying man.
But I wouldn't really consider that because it would lead to a more complex question that asks:

Why is it that whenever the village priest makes incantations concerning theft, lo and behold, a dying man always appear and the blame will be heaped on him?
Moreso, why is it that the dying man always manage to die in the same manner (unable to eat or speak and later dies, or any other similar trend)?

I prefer the concept where the close friend knew it was him and probably poisoned him (and will secretly get a ransom from the village head maybe).

The Torah pointed out that the heart of man is desperately wicked. the basic understanding of this will save you.

like i always say here, through my other moniker, whatever happens, happened because it is the will of GOD.

i want to recall a story or oracle about Solomon the son of David.

God asked him 'What do you want me to do for you''?

and he said, Give me the wisdom to govern your people...

and God said, you have not asked for wealth or riches....because he has asked for the best gift from God God added every other thing to him.

some people are not like Solomon, .THEY ASK FOR HE LIFE OF THEIR ENEMY. They do not ask for wisdom.

they have asked for the life of their enemy...God will grant it for them because they have asked and it is what they want....


FYI: The universe is God....

kkins25:
■ And water?

Read!

Kobojunkie:
1. According to your story, the man was unable to speak or eat. How could you tell that his mind was intact even with all that? He remembered places and faces is no confirmation that a mind is intact.

From what I've given, it's obvious that his mind wasn't 100% intact.
But his mind was good enough to help him locate an important person that might be able to help him (with zero intention of bragging, there are many people in that village, but people always happened to look up to my father for any kind of help back then (remember it's a village, not a big town), so my dad was more like a popular voice in the small village.

This dying man left his house, came straight to the 'popular helper's' house and later left to an open place to continue his dying process, it doesn't look like a mistake and also his mind wasn't 100% stable but it was working good enough for a hungry dumb man.

And you say an adult man died out of hunger in 3 days. That's almost impossible since a human adult can exist up to at least 11 days without food and still function OK. And your insistence that his body being found in an open place means he must not have need murdered is baseless. That makes no sense at all.

Remember I said he died in about 3 days after leaving our compound, I didn't know how long he must have been hungry before arriving.

Sadly, since no autopsy was done, we won't know what really happened or why a man died in such a way.

2. There is possibility that your friend may have been poisoned,yes, but that does not mean he was and since no autopsy was done to determine actual cause of death, there is no telling. All your narrative does is present a possibility for many things including murder.

Hmm, well well...

Your contribution is appreciated.

Aemmyjah:
Wicked spirits (demons) exists, even Bible stories confirm that
Don't be fooled
Their wicked influence is felt on mankind
One can also interact with them too in the art called Spiritism, deminism, necromancy, fortune-telling, magic, astrology, witchcraft, etc and many people use this powers to harm others or to protect themselves.

100% agreed by me.

I think I've heard the theist's point of view, that's why I need atheists to contribute but I'm not seeing much yet.
How do I say pounded yam is nice if I haven't tasted it...?
How do they say pounded yam is nice if they haven't tasted it...?

22jumpstreet1:
The Torah pointed out that the heart of man is desperately wicked. the basic understanding of this will save you.

like i always say here, through my other moniker, whatever happens, happened because it is the will of GOD.

i want to recall a story or oracle about Solomon the son of David.

God asked him 'What do you want me to do for you''?

and he said, Give me the wisdom to govern your people...

and God said, you have not asked for wealth or riches....because he has asked for the best gift from God God added every other thing to him.

some people are not like Solomon, .THEY ASK FOR HE LIFE OF THEIR ENEMY. They do not ask for wisdom.

they have asked for the life of their enemy...God will grant it for them because they have asked and it is what they want....


FYI: The universe is God....

Man I don't really understand your contribution, please help me break it down.

kkins25:


And water?

Kobojunkie:
Read!

I'm not certain if the man in question was able to drink water as well, he was just irresponsive.

So yh kobojunkie, please reevaluate for us how long a human can stay without water as well..

ANormalHuman:
■ I'm not certain if the man in question was able to drink water as well, he was just irresponsive.

So yh kobojunkie, please reevaluate for us how long a human can stay without water as well..

You can easily Google this for yourself.

According to one study, you cannot survive for more than 8 to 21 days without food and water. Individuals on their deathbeds who use little energy may only last a few days or weeks without food or water. Water is far more important to the human body than food.May 17 How long can a man survive without food and water

ANormalHuman:
■ From what I've given, it's obvious that his mind wasn't 100% intact.
But his mind was good enough to help him locate an important person that might be able to help him (with zero intention of bragging, there are many people in that village, but people always happened to look up to my father for any kind of help back then (remember it's a village, not a big town), so my dad was more like a popular voice in the small village.
This dying man left his house, came straight to the 'popular helper's' house and later left to an open place to continue his dying process, it doesn't look like a mistake and also his mind wasn't 100% stable but it was working good enough for a hungry dumb man.
■ Remember I said he died in about 3 days after leaving our compound, I didn't know how long he must have been hungry before arriving.
■ Hmm, well well...Your contribution is appreciated.

1. Clearly you are trying to access what you clearly do not understand well here, the human mind.

2. So, was the man already looking severely emaciated when he showed up at your house 3 days before?

3. You cannot jump pass the many questions to a conclusion. The answers to the questions are instead meant to lead you to a conclusion and clearly there are so very many unanswered questions in this case and little to no real answers. So how did you jump pass to the conclusion you have and agree with?

Kobojunkie:
You can easily Google this for yourself.

That was your argument point, I don't want to interfere...

Especially because I know that Google can give different results...

For instance, I just got this:

As a general rule of thumb, a person can survive without water for about 3 days. However, some factors, such as how much water an individual body needs, and how it uses water, can affect this. Factors that may change how much water a person needs include: age

I agree with your point on 11 days, and I also know it varies per person. You made your point, I agreed.

I was just asking again because if the fellow that pointed out water.

Kobojunkie:
1. Clearly you are trying to access what you clearly do not understand well here, the human mind.

I think it's kind of hilarious because that's what you are doing also, everyone who contributes on this thread is trying to explain/access what he/she doesn't clearly understand.

2. So, was the man already looking severely emaciated when he showed up at your house 3 days before?

My memory may fail me, but before this incident, he was already a slim guy, at the arrival time,I think he was still as slim as usual, or slimmer.

3. You cannot jump pass the many questions to a conclusion. The answers to the questions are instead meant to lead you to a conclusion and clearly there are so very many unanswered questions in this case and little to no real answers. So how did you jump pass to the conclusion you have and agree with?

There's a motive to it. I'm actually good at jumping pass an argument.

If it's questions, you can ask me to answer and I will answer you from my POV, but when you assume something else and use it to ask a question, I see it leading to an argument so I try to avoid.
Also I'm still trying to make room for the atheists and I shouldn't allow this thread to become unnecessarily bulky without them.

And let me interrupt you please... We've revolved round my example for so long that i think we've lost the concept. So I want you to just give a straight reply to the general question:

For the charms that always work, how is it possible?

ANormalHuman:
■ I didn't argue with point 1., I accept it.
For 2.
I meant to say it's a valid point you say he was betrayed by his close friend.
Then again you've made a new point, that someone saw an opportunity to lay the blame on a dying man.
But I wouldn't really consider that because it would lead to a more complex question that asks:
■ Why is it that whenever the village priest makes incantations concerning theft, lo and behold, a dying man always appear and the blame will be heaped on him?
■ Moreso, why is it that the dying man always manage to die in the same manner (unable to eat or speak and later dies, or any other similar trend)?
■ I prefer the concept where the close friend knew it was him and probably poisoned him (and will secretly get a ransom from the village head maybe).

1. You refuse to attempt the simple questions and you refuse to consider the seemingly complex questions ... it seems you have some sort of aversion to questions that may in fact lead you to the truth.

Let's take a poke at some of the questions you came up with.

#1. It may just be that your Priests do in fact go all out to do whatever it takes to keep the people believing in their schemes in order to keep them controlled. They may have even touts working the scheme for them. It is not unheard of.

#2. Your #2 assertion actually lends credence to my #1 hypothesis. You folks need to look into it. Sadly, you would rather believe the touts are demons and the victims of their schemes guilty parties.

2. So, this secret friend committed a murder --- a crime --- and will then get rewarded for committing a murder by your village head? Do you people listen to yourselves at all?