Stats: 3,186,802 members, 7,930,736 topics. Date: Sunday, 25 August 2024 at 07:17 AM |
Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Does God Exist? (20950 Views)
Is There A Way To Prove God Exist Apart From The Scripture? (2) (3) (4)
(1) (2) (3) ... (55) (56) (57) (58) (59) (60) (61) ... (63) (Reply) (Go Down)
Re: Does God Exist? by Dtruthspeaker: 6:58am On Jan 13 |
Image123: Oh oooh! You catch am well well. ![]() Typical Atheists double standard. What is good for the gander the goose miust be stopped from having it. |
Re: Does God Exist? by SIRTeee15: 12:44pm On Jan 13 |
, |
Re: Does God Exist? by kkins25(m): 1:17pm On Jan 13 |
SIRTeee15:I hope you know that logos can be used in different contexts. So, saying you don't want to discuss John 1:1 which is the only place the logos was used to designate Jesus as a manifestation of God, shocks me. Now let's talk about the Aramaic bible called Targum, the same Aramaic bible used by Jesus in the 1st century AD.Interesting. I did find that the Aramaic bible you speak of were translations done in an attempt to revert the hebrew bible to Aramaic and not the first iterations of the bible as you insinuate. Writing down the targum was initially prohibited; nevertheless, some targumitic writings appeared as early as the middle of the first century AD. They were not recognized as authoritative by the religious leaders. Some subsequent Jewish traditions (beginning with the Babylonian Jews) accepted the written targumim as authoritative translations of the Hebrew scriptures into Aramaic. Today, the common meaning of targum is a written Aramaic translation of the Bible. Only Yemenite Jews continue to use the targumim liturgically. ---https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targum This aramaic bible use of the word memra stem from the understanding of the Jews belief in what is the word of God. They understand it to be an active force proceeding from God with a life of it's own. In Hebrew, the places you mentioned used "Messenger of God." This is the Christian understanding of TRINITY- The original Christians wouldn't understand what you're saying. They didn't know anything like Trinity. They mostly didn't speak Greek either, and mind you, LOGOS as seen in John 1:1 is purely a hellenized concept. Other instances of Logos tally with the hebrew equivalent of the word except in the case of John 1:1. And this is the same JEWISH belief John wrote about in his gospel by letting us know memra became flesh and dwelt among us. Whoever wrote the book of John must have been schooled in Greek. There's a common consensus that Jesus if he understood Greek, spoke very little of it. The same goes for his disciples. Even though Judea, Galilee, where Jesus was born, was probably bilingual, the Jews generally didn't speak it. Even Josephus, who was learned in Greek, made blunders when he was translating and had to call Romans to assist. Therefore, John, Peter, James, etc couldn't have understood what Logos meant as used in John 1:1. If the Logos was something the Jews where conversant with, then it doesn't make sense that the Jewish preist, the disciples of jesus would doubt his claims, right? You are arguing using the bible as bases of historical event when the bible itself is what we are trying to dissect. It's like using the testimony of an alleged thief to judge a case. No, Sirtee, that's not how arguments are done. Use external sources, please. FYI, there's a difference between biblical scholars and theologians. The latter are not very different from your pastors. If you want clarity, seek the biblical scholars. |
Re: Does God Exist? by kkins25(m): 1:24pm On Jan 13 |
SIRTeee15: Once, Jesus privately asked his apostles, “‘who do you say that I am?’ And Simon Peter answered, ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matthew 16.15-16). Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1.3) “Through him you have come to trust in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are set on God” (v. 21). Some traditionalists cite the last clause in 2 Peter 1.1 to support that Peter believed Jesus was God. Nearly all English Bibles translate it as the New American Standard Bible (NASB) does, which reads, “of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.” One Person is in view, which calls Jesus “God.” But the King James Version (KJV) reads, “of God and our Savior Jesus Christ.” Two Persons are in view, so that Jesus is not called “God.” Who is the Man behind 2 Peter 1? 2 Peter 1 is the first chapter of the Second Epistle of Peter in the New Testament of the Christian Bible. The author identifies himself as "Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ" and the epistle is traditionally attributed to Peter the Apostle, but some writers argue that it is the work of Peter's followers in Rome between the years 70 and 100. --------------------https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Peter_1 |
Re: Does God Exist? by SIRTeee15: 2:09pm On Jan 13 |
kkins25: What do U mean by Aramaic bible is irrelevant. As at the time of Jesus, few Jews could read and understand Hebrew exception being religious leaders. The common people had to rely on translation from Hebrew to Aramaic to understand the bible. The written form had memra replaced for the personhood of the LORD in Aramaic translation. This was before Christianity and had nothing to do with greeco-roman influence. So why did the Jews in 2nd temple period start using memra for God. That's my point. What do U mean by Hebrew bible use messenger of God for the LORD. Stop capping bro, quit the lies. If u don't know something, either ignore or learn. U don't win all argument. Check Hebrew bible verses for places it says memra in Aramaic translation. It never said messenger of God. What do u mean by theologian? Is Bart Erhman a theologian? Do U know Bart Erhman? He's a core atheist as it comes. I brought Bart Erhman here because he's the most popular liberal bible scholar and he's not a theologian. Pls read about him. I'm happy to debate u the authorship of new testament writers starting with letters of Peter. That will be later in the day. Both internal and external evidence of a book are used to validate claims in a book. Pls study textual criticism in the academic world. It's funny u quoting the bible to debunk Christian claims but u don't want me to do the same. We not debating theology here, what we doing is bring up textual evidence to back my claim- this could be internal or external so long as it meets textual criticism criteria. Finally, once again u don't know the bible enough. Reason U left. How can u bring Peter's writing saying father is God to invalidate his claim that Jesus is not God. Peter called Jesus a man in the book of acts. That doesn't mean Jesus can't be God. That Jesus is the son of God is the main reason he's God. The question is do u know what the son of God means in the new testament. No u don't. because if u do U won't bring Jesus as the son of God as evidence of Jesus can't be God. Do U even know Jesus was killed by the religious leaders? The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.” 64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”[e] 65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66 What do you think?” “He is worthy of death,” they answered. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. Jesus couldn't have been God if he isn't the son of God. Do U get it now? 2 Likes
|
Re: Does God Exist? by SIRTeee15: 10:51pm On Jan 13 |
So I've always made this clear. All atheist who left Christianity did so because they don't understand Christianity. Not because they understood it and felt it doesn't make sense. You cant say something doesn't make sense or it's false if u don't understand it. This is the case of virtually all atheist and none has disappointed me or disprove my theory. Their understanding of Christian theology is extremely poor. Case in point is kkins25 who I debated if Peter actually said Jesus is God. Kkins is of the opinion Peter never called Jesus God because Peter called Jesus the son of God. He also argued Peter used the title God for the Father. According to kkins, if Jesus is the son of God then he couldn't be God and Peter couldn't have called father and son (Jesus) God the same time. From the above, it's obvious kkins had never studied the bible, didn't attend bible study class and knows nothing about christology/Christophany when he was a Christian. He did not have sound Christian doctrine b4 leaving the faith. It's unfortunate his church failed him, his pastor failed him, his Christian community failed him. And for this, I apologise on their behalf for a soul is lost in the process. You cant understand Christianity and then decide to leave. It's impossible. Jesus Christ is the TRUTH and once u KNOW HIM, U get stuck to the truth. It's an eternal union. The day I meet an atheist or an ex Christian that fully understands Christianity and it's doctrine is the day I will renounce my faith. I will leave u with this bible verse from John 1.18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. |
Re: Does God Exist? by Maynmann: 8:09am On Jan 14 |
SIRTeee15:The son of god is the holy spirit, Jesus became son of god after the spirit descended on him. Remember spirit begats spirit. God's son is the holy spirit not Jesus, son of Mary. In that same john you are quoting, it told you when Jesus became the son of god. John 1:32-34 32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One. The spirit is the son of God that came down from heaven, not Jesus son of Mary. John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man It's you that lacks knowledge on the books you are basing your life on, you gave your life to a mere man and even eat his flesh and drink his blood 😂 Cc kkins25 1 Like 1 Share
|
Re: Does God Exist? by Maynmann: 8:18am On Jan 14 |
SIRTeee15:Good that you are using the correct Hebrew translation of the Tanakh, hope you know that Isaiah 9:5 is talking about Hezekiah, the translation you have in your various bible VERSIONS is the main problem. https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15940 When we are done we'll move to Isaiah 53. Religion thrives on ignorance that's why you think a man born in 1st century Palestine is a god, come on 😂😂
|
Re: Does God Exist? by Maynmann: 8:32am On Jan 14 |
SIRTeee15:Checking the original Greek of john 1:1, what's the difference between Theo and Theon? Remember, the word was WITH God(Theon). The word THEN became theos not Theon. John 17:3 (ESV), "And this is eternal life, that they know you, the ONLY TRUE God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." It's more correct to even translate logos as reason rather than "word" 🙃
|
Re: Does God Exist? by SIRTeee15: 9:54am On Jan 14 |
Maynmann: U this mad man is here again. |
Re: Does God Exist? by LordReed(m): 10:52am On Jan 14 |
SIRTeee15: So any Christian who doesn't interpret the bible the same way you do is not a true Christian? Is that an inference that should be drawn from your statements? BTW do you think there's any Christian that has been posting on NL that you think has the same interpretation of the bible as you have and who is that person? 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Does God Exist? by kkins25(m): 11:12pm On Jan 17 |
SIRTeee15: If only you'd read the text in the images you posted, you'd find that they actually support my post. I answered your Qs.. now answer mine from before. |
Re: Does God Exist? by SIRTeee15: 11:45am On Jan 18 |
LordReed:11 There are ways u interpret the scriptures based on the hermeneutic phenomenology developed by the early church, and primarily related to understanding the Hebrew Scriptures. Each passage in Scripture is understood to have four meanings: Literal: What the passage says about the narratives itself. Allegorical: What the passage can tell us about Christ Moral: What the passage can teach us about how to live Anagogical/exegesis: What the passage tells us about our ultimate fate When I debate atheist, the only way I interpret the scriptures with them is literal. Exegesis has no meaning to U guys and the general consensus is that I guys base your conscience on subjective morality. Liberal bible scholars also interpret the scripture strictly literally. Does the passage or verse actually meant what Christians claim or we are simply reading meaning to it. If the bible say Jesus is the son of God and also God. That means the bible confirm jesus to be God. Simple. Now exegetical interpretation may want to explain the verse another way e.g some may say the verse is claiming Jesus is a lesser god or Jesus is divine but not God.... But that's for theist to debate i.e people who actually believe in the bible. For example all liberal bible scholars including academic Muslim scholars have admitted that if the gospel of John is true, then Jesus is definitely God. 1 Like |
Re: Does God Exist? by SIRTeee15: 11:48am On Jan 18 |
kkins25: I think u should do a bit more study on historical theology. You made so many assumptions here that cannot be backed by any substantial evidence. I want to assume your argument is based on a book called Caesar's Messiah...if this is the case, I will advise u to read academic criticism of the book. I can't remember any question or claim U brought up that I didn't shred to pieces here. 1 Like |
Re: Does God Exist? by LordReed(m): 12:36pm On Jan 18 |
SIRTeee15: Dude you didn't answer the question I asked. |
Re: Does God Exist? by SIRTeee15: 1:44pm On Jan 18 |
LordReed: Dude all Christians and non Christians have the same literal interpretation of the bible. That's what I'm saying. All my argument on this thread is strictly literal interpretation of the scriptures. So all Christians will define the scriptures same way literally As for exegesis, the interpretation may differ because that has to do with faith. But that's btw theist and that's not what I'm doing here. For example, all Christians will interpret John 1.18 the same. Jesus is the son of God and that makes him God. That's what the verse say- literal interpretation. However, Christians may defer on the exegesis- what the verse actually meant when context is applied. It doesn't matter if the Christian is a nairalander or not. I rarely come here to debate Christian nairalanders including Unitarians who have a different doctrine of Jesus. So I don't know if they will disagree with me on my exegesis- I'm not here for that I here to expose the ignorance of Muslims and atheist not Christians. 1 Like |
Re: Does God Exist? by LordReed(m): 2:10pm On Jan 18 |
SIRTeee15: These are my questions again: So any Christian who doesn't interpret the bible the same way you do is not a true Christian? Is that an inference that should be drawn from your statements? BTW do you think there's any Christian that has been posting on NL that you think has the same interpretation of the bible as you have and who is that person? On Nairaland there're several Christians I can mention who do not share your interpretation so please answer the questions. |
Re: Does God Exist? by SIRTeee15: 2:46pm On Jan 18 |
LordReed:Literal or exegesis? Or let me ask, how do I interpret scriptures to your own understanding? LordReed:I told u I don't debate Christians on nairaland so don't know if they will agree with me or not. LordReed: Do not share the literal interpretation or exegesis? Which one. Pls if u do not answer above questions, I will end the conversation. The answer u looking for is already in my previous answers. |
Re: Does God Exist? by kkins25(m): 4:41pm On Jan 18 |
Sirtee15 dodging questions left and right.... |
Re: Does God Exist? by budaatum: 7:51pm On Jan 18 |
SIRTeee15: I guess some are telling you that they don't accept the Bible, which was written by humans with an agenda, is true or confirms anything. Atheists will go further and tell you it does not even confirm a God exists not to talk of said god having a child. Thankfully, it is written in the Bible that humans should not live by only one book but by every book the gods wrote, which helps reduce one's confirmation bias and ignorance. Just imagine not reading anything about the ancient Egyptians from who the gods grew, and you might get a clue. SIRTeee15:Many have resolved that "if", and found it to be not as true as some claim. And it's not healthy to just believe whatever one reads in a book without investigating it's validity by oneself. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Does God Exist? by LordReed(m): 10:07pm On Jan 18 |
SIRTeee15: You don't answer my question but want me to answer yours, really? LoLz. 1 Like |
Re: Does God Exist? by Aemmyjah(m): 6:08pm On Jan 20 |
kkins25: The highlighted shows that it is wrong for me to keep arguing with someone that is holding onto 17th century belief Keep typing nonsense. Even a fake chatgpt or textbook written today of won't call abiogenesis a fact Keep shooting your shot all over the field and shouting goal |
Re: Does God Exist? by LordReed(m): 7:15pm On Jan 20 |
Aemmyjah: You are holding on to centuries old belief so you are even more wrong by your own logic. |
Re: Does God Exist? by kkins25(m): 8:48pm On Jan 20 |
Aemmyjah: care to explain? |
Re: Does God Exist? by SIRTeee15: 1:37pm On Jan 21 |
budaatum:I believe in Christianity because it's historically, archeological, philosophical and logically valid and real. It's not a make believe faith. Even today, U can test it and confirm it's validity. budaatum: Can U tell us the bible verse that states the highlighted. budaatum:Did any of the Egyptian gods ever claimed to be a universal supreme deity? I do t think so. Then why should waste my time on such deity when it doesn't acknowledge my existence? budaatum: There's no religion or faith that has been scrutinised or critiqued like Christianity. Yet all bible scholars- am talking of liberal/secular agree the core tenet of Christianity remains the same since it began. It's never been changed. I'm happy to discuss the validity of John gospel with u if u sincerely want to learn. |
Re: Does God Exist? by budaatum: 3:15pm On Jan 21 |
SIRTeee15:I hope you mean you "believe the Bible", because Christianity, being an ideology, is not as valid and real as you claim. SIRTeee15:https://www.nairaland.com/7348804/those-read-only-one-book SIRTeee15:The Egyptians were not do arrogant as to claim their God was a universal supreme deity, and neither were the Israelites, who's god was for them alone. It is the Western world, having killed their own gods, that adopted the god of the Israelites and promoted it as a universal god. The Israelites themselves wouldn't share their parochial god with gentiles. And the reason it was easily shared was the fact that it had a paper book, as opposed to the word of the gods of Egypt who's words were written in stone. SIRTeee15:A Yoruba proverb goes, a person who hasn't seen another another person's father's farm would claim their father's farm is the biggest. You know nothing about Buddhism for instance, which has gone through more study and critique for longer than Christianity. They just never colonised you with it, but those who were will say the same as you've said about your religion. SIRTeee15:Yes it has changed. It began as a change from parochial Judaism, and became Catholic, before going Protestant, and now Evangelical with lots of variants along the way. I'd even claim it came out of Egypt, but that might involve me trying to convince you of what the sort of indoctrination 400 years of slavery the Israelites went through can do to one. But I doubt your countenance that idea, even though it's similar to the indoctrination that's made us Nigerians abandon our own gods and adopt the colonisers' ones. Humans always change, and how they will see and understand things changes too. That is how we grow and develop and evolve. SIRTeee15:If I want to learn, Sirtee? So, you want a relationship with me whereby you are the superior and I your student? At least show you have knowledge to share before asking me to sit at your feet in the congregation you preside over please, or perhaps consider you might want to learn too. I've included the verse you requested below, plus another for you to think about learning.
|
Re: Does God Exist? by HellVictorinho6(m): 3:37pm On Jan 21 |
budaatum: Cant u write what is useful? |
Re: Does God Exist? by SIRTeee15: 7:47pm On Jan 21 |
budaatum: The verse up there has nothing to do with your claim. I noticed u always yapping about indoctrination of foreign religion via colonialism. Let me ask u some questions since U quoting the Koran, When was the first mosque built in yorubaland. Do U know balogun Aare Latosa, the great warrior of the kiriji war died a Muslim. Was it Arabic colonialism that made him drop his ancestral worship for Arabic one? I'm not in the mood for your up and down conspiracy junks. Christianity hasn't changed, this was the conclusion of liberal experts in bible scholarship. You can't know more than them. These are statements from Bart Erhman, read about him if u don't know him.
|
Re: Does God Exist? by budaatum: 8:25pm On Jan 21 |
SIRTeee15:It is not how you understand it, you mean. The fact remains that those who believe one book would likely not learn from other books. SIRTeee15:I don't know how you could have "noticed u always yapping about indoctrination of foreign religion via colonialism", when that is not a thing I do. Perhaps you could provide evidence of such "yapping" so you can be believed. Also consider the stupidity of "yapping about indoctrination of foreign religion via colonialism", in the language of the colonialiser. One should yap against colonialism in one's uncolonized language, is my preferred position, and I am thankful for my proficiency in the language of the coloniser and the books it empowers me to be able to read. SIRTeee15:I quote the Bible too, so why haven't you asked me where the first church was built? What has quoting the Koran got to do with the first mosque built anywhere? I detect needless deflection here, and an attempt to waste my time on irrelevants. SIRTeee15:Not only has Christianity changed, Christianity itself was a change from 'Salvation by the Ark' Judaism, to salvation by Christ. In fact, not only did 'Thou shalt worship no other God", change, but today same God is not exactly so jealous anymore. SIRTeee15:Bart Erhman is required reading for anyone who truly questions the Bible, but is at the beginning of one's search for knowledge. No one is claiming here that the Bible is not real, just that much that is described in it isn't historically nor archeologically accurate. |
(1) (2) (3) ... (55) (56) (57) (58) (59) (60) (61) ... (63) (Reply)
$1k Seed: Kasali To Funke Adejumo "Judgement Is Coming On You Soon" / Why Don't Catholics Eat Meat/flesh On Good Friday? / Don Moen: Enugu Is Nice, Calm And Peaceful
(Go Up)
Sections: politics (1) business autos (1) jobs (1) career education (1) romance computers phones travel sports fashion health religion celebs tv-movies music-radio literature webmasters programming techmarket Links: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) Nairaland - Copyright © 2005 - 2024 Oluwaseun Osewa. All rights reserved. See How To Advertise. 151 |