RightChannel:


With Quran reference tell me how Jesus Christ was created

Even there was confusion on how Adam was created in your Quran, you will exposed yourself further with that above question. So please tell us how Jesus Christ was created with Quran reference


Jesus is a Spirit proceeding from God and his very own Word, whereas Adam was given life by God's Spirit and was created by God's command.

Quran 4:171 presupposes that Jesus existed before he was born from the virgin. After all, for the Quran to identify Jesus as God’s Word which he committed or gave to Mary indicates that he was with God even before he was given to his mother. Furthermore, both Christians and Muslims agree that God’s Word is uncreated since he has never lacked his communicative ability. Thus, for Jesus Christ to be God’s Word implies that he is uncreated, that he is eternal. Notice the logic behind this:

A. God’s Word is eternal.
B. Jesus is God’s Word.
C. Therefore, Jesus Christ is eternal.

AbuTwins:
The original no dey in the first place!
All Christian theologians agree to this!

I will be expecting!

Not really, but it's complicated!

The councils of Nicaea, Constantinople and others were done to fix these!
There was never a consensus on it from the Biblical manuscripts.

AbuTwins:


Everyone is created by God's word and not only Jesus!
And even if you claim Jesus is God's word, Qur'an is God's word too. So Jesus = Qur'an in your logic!

AbuTwins:


1. God does not need a son or helper in His dominion as He is All-Powerful to do all things!
2. Only Allah (God, the creator of All) alone deserves our entire worship!
3. God does not become man!
4. God does not debase Himself. He is at all times greater than all His creations!

Ken4Christ:


Jesus prayed to God because he was human on earth.

Jesus off course claimed to be God in many occasions.

1. When he said, : before Abraham was I Am.

2. When he forgave sins. Can ordinary human forgive sin.

3. When he called God his Father. Not even Moses or Elijah addressed God as their father.

4. When he said, he who has seen me has seen the Father.

5. When he said that he is the first and last.

6. When he said he will send down the Holy Spirit. Which mortal man has the power to send down the Holy Spirit. Remember that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.

7. When he accepted worship on several occasions.

I could go on and on.

Yes, there were angels called sons of God. But Jesus is the only incarnate son of God or the only begotten Son of God. And he also became the first begotten from the dead.

AbuTwins:


It is simple!

God called himself God many times in the old testament!
Even Jesus directed all worship to the father by saying "Our Father who is in heaven....(never on earth).

How many times did Jesus prayed to God in the Bible?

He never for once without ambiguity call himself God!

If Jesus is the son of God!
And Sons of God came to have sex with daughters of men in Genesis 6:1-4!
Was Jesus among them then?

So Son of God can only be a metaphor!

LordAbove:


He never called himself God?
I don’t know what Bible you read, but Jesus declared himself to be God on multiple occasions.
And the Apostles, even Paul, recognized him as God.

SIRTee15:


I will repeat this important question just in case U pretend to miss it.

My question is based on what's written in your Qur'an.

If Jesus is indeed is the son of God, should he be worshipped?
If Allah has a son, should the son be worshipped?

Answer the question.

RightChannel:


Should we believe that this question is very difficult for you to answer?

With Quran reference tell me how Jesus Christ was created


We will know if Jesus Christ is God or not if you can answer the question

Emusan:


So, which copies was tailored, translated and retranslated to make Jesus God and By who?

What do you mean by this?

But the manuscripts we have in possession today predated all these councils.

So, what do you mean by THE NEW TESTAMENT WAS CREATED TO MAKE JESUS GOD?

The NT manuscripts we have today is the only source of information for now.

AbuTwins:


Where exactly did he did that without ambiguity?

The God in the old testament didn't wait for recognition before declaring Himself openly several times!

AbuTwins:


Your premises is wrong!
Allah begets not nor is He begotten!
Only Allah deserves our worship!

SIRTee15:


It's obvious U are ashamed of your Qur'an.

U cannot answer a simple question. A question that is already answered in your quran.
Your Koran has the answer to my question but U are too ashamed to say it.

This shows not only are U ashamed of the Qur'an but U are embarrassed by what's written in the Qur'an.

I will report u to your colleagues... Ohyoudidn't, expanse, Qasim6, antichristian

Your friend here Abutwins is embarrassed by what's written in the Qur'an.
I have asked him a question lifted from the Qur'an but he's too ashamed of the Qur'an to answer it.

A Muslim who is ashamed of the Qur'an cannot be called Muslim. He's left Islam.

AbuTwin redeem yourself and answer my question. Look into your Qur'an and give me my answer.

If Jesus is indeed is the son of God, should he be worshipped?
If Allah has a son, should the son be worshipped?

Answer the question.

LordAbove:


You forget that the God who didn’t wait for recognition before declaring himself openly went on to take on the form of a human, and then called himself the Son of God. Why?
Because in humbling himself to take the form of a human, he could get hungry, he could get tired, he was like humans were.
So he didn’t declare himself God outrightly due to this. Instead he interchangeably declared himself to be God, and the Son of God. And that is where confusion sets in for most.

Even his disciples didn’t know this at first. Philip said to him “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us”.
What was Jesus’ response?
Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’.
Jesus in this verse declared himself to be the Father who is God.

When Thomas saw Jesus after the resurrection, what did he do?
Thomas worshipped Jesus. But only God is to worshipped, so why did Jesus allow himself to be worshipped?
Thomas worshipped Jesus and called him “My Lord and my God”.

Or do we talk about Isaiah 44:6 where the Old Testament God as you put it called himself the “First and the Last”?.
Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the Lord says-Israel's King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Then in the book of Revelations, Jesus uses the same name that the God of the Old Testament uses too.
Revelations 22:13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.“

So we see here that Jesus declares himself to be God, yet again. But Isaiah 44:6 just said there is no other God apart from the God of the Old Testament. Well, this just proves that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament that you mentioned yourself.

You see, the Godhead is a doctrine we can never understand. And if you try to define God in a way that fits your human thinking, then you would be only confining God and not believing him to be all-powerful.

God is God. Jesus is God. Jesus is the Son of God.

AbuTwins:
You mean the person that did that will write down his name in what he did?

If you want the truth you can read the two prefaces to RSV 1952 and 1971. Your Bible DDs did revealed a lot in the ways they've been toying with your brains!

Your claim about trinitarian Bible etc!

If this was true then the councils won't needed to have happened! The councils fixed so many things unproven in the Bible. And then it was gradually read into it.

The activity of the church fathers, the councils, the copyists errors, the canonisation of the books of the Bible while excluding others, etc was tailored to meet such criteria!

Yes, and the more latest manuscripts are discovered the more the translations increases and the more errors are discovered in past Bible translations!

AbuTwins:
Did God in the Old Testament did same? Why the change? Does God change?

Jesus always speak in Parables!
Even his disciples never understood him! Anyone who has seen the messenger has seen the sender of the message!
This is not an express claim where Jesus said he is God. I knew you will retranslate a verse with your mindset before you can get it.


Thomas was surprised! It was an exclamation at least! And it could mean Thomas was calling the Father or calling Jesus god (no capital/small god in Greek)! Jesus later said “Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’” John 20:17 So Jesus had a God who is your God too! God does not have God!

This in no way mentions Jesus. The context was in reference to God not Jesus!

This was just tailored to fit in that Isaiah verse but didn't fit in wholly!

God is never afraid to call Himself God below!
Isaiah 44:6
“This is what the LORD says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

But Jesus will always hide in ambiguity refusing to call himself God directly!
Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

You must translate and retranslate to get what you want with the Bible! Jesus didn't for once call himself God!


We understood God in the Torah to be just one!
The Godhead was created later after Jesus!
Jesus didn't ever call himself God!
You always need to perform miracles to fit in the gaps to make Jesus God!

Jesus worshipped God many times!
Jesus did great miracles but does not know the hour!
Jesus claimed he had a God!
Jesus said the father is greater than him!
Jesus said in John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. The only true God is the God that sent Jesus as a Messenger!

And Acts 2:22
“Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

SIRTee15:


It's obvious U are ashamed of your Qur'an.

U cannot answer a simple question. A question that is already answered in your quran.
Your Koran has the answer to my question but U are too ashamed to say it.

This shows not only are U ashamed of the Qur'an but U are embarrassed by what's written in the Qur'an.

I will report u to your colleagues... Ohyoudidn't, expanse, Qasim6, antichristian

Your friend here Abutwins is embarrassed by what's written in the Qur'an.
I have asked him a question lifted from the Qur'an but he's too ashamed of the Qur'an to answer it.

A Muslim who is ashamed of the Qur'an cannot be called Muslim. He's left Islam.

AbuTwin redeem yourself and answer my question. Look into your Qur'an and give me my answer.

If Jesus is indeed is the son of God, should he be worshipped?
If Allah has a son, should the son be worshipped?

Answer the question.

AbuTwins:


You are funny and you made me laugh!

I don't answer "if" questions till it happens!
Especially as this is about the oneness of Allah!
You sound frustrated!

Allah does not have a son!
Neither is Jesus a son but a slave of Allah!
There is no "ifs".

Qasim6:


What is it with the If?
God says he has no son, so why waste your time with the ifs?

Q 21:26
And they say: the Merciful has adopted a son; glorified is He, but they are honoured servants.

The term "son of God" is just honorific title. That's how the Jews understood it, it's the pagan Romans that took the term to another level with Jesus.

SIRTee15:

If Jesus is indeed is the son of God, should he be worshipped?
If Allah has a son, should the son be worshipped?

Emusan:


So the person doesn't have a name.

You claimed there's no ORIGINAL!

So to you all the NEW TESTAMENT copies we have today ARE ALL FAKE, RIGHT?

So you believe what RSV wrote and don't believe their translation.

Well, this isn't where we're going.

So what makes it complicated?

Are you serious?

So you don't know we have manuscripts that dated back to the early 2nd century.

If they are copies it means there's original.

Or are they copy from empty space?

But there are manuscripts to back it up.

So, definitely it can't be manipulated without changing the manuscripts.

You don't have point here.

Pure lie.

Provide your evidence.

Your claim that New Testament was created to make Jesus God is false.

SIRTee15:


U don't answer if questions BUT YOUR QUR'AN ANSWERED THE IF QUESTION.

YOUR QUR'AN WHICH IS THE MIRACLE OF ISLAM ANSWERED THE IF QUESTION I'M LOOKING FOR

But you here saying U can't answer if question that's already answered in your Qur'an.
Are U greater than the Qur'an?
AbuTwin are U greater than Muhammed who answered the if question? Are U?

Walahi...not only are U ashamed of the Qur'an but you are embarrassed by what's written in it.

Even me I'm now ashamed for U...walahi.

Breaking news...
Abutwins denies the Qur'an: says it's wrong for Muslims to answer if questions.

Qasim6:


What is it with the If?
God says he has no son, so why waste your time with the ifs?

Q 21:26
And they say: the Merciful has adopted a son; glorified is He, but they are honoured servants.

The term "son of God" is just honorific title. That's how the Jews understood it, it's the pagan Romans that took the term to another level with Jesus.

LordAbove:


“Did God in the Old Testament did same? Why the change? Does God change?“

I do not understand this question of yours. Could you rephrase it for me?
And it’s funny you’re saying I’m translating the verses when I just said them as they were written. You’re the one who is translating and claiming they were tailor fit.
Thomas called Jesus God, and here you are saying that he meant “god”. Who is the one trying to translate it to fit our own view? It is you, my friend.
You just tried to misinterpret it to make it fit into your narrative. So do not project that onto me.

Jesus later said “Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’” John 20:17 So Jesus had a God who is your God too! God does not have God!”

“I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
[b]This is the mystery of the Godhead that I tell you we cannot possibly fathom. You cannot make it make sense, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t true.
Yes, Jesus said “My God and your God”, but God also said the same thing about Jesus!
Hebrews 1:6-12;
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
"Let all God's angels worship him."
In speaking of the angels he says,
"He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire."
But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
•You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your
companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.
10 He also says,
"In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the
earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
"They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same, and your years will never end."
Did you see that?
But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
•You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your
companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.
He calls Jesus God. And in the latter parts of that chapter, he goes on to say that Jesus laid the foundations of the earth. Thereby, solidifying him as the Creator, God.[/b]

“Jesus said the father is greater than him!“
As I said in the first comment I made on here, God took on the form of a human and called that the Son of God.
Humans hungers, thirst, sleep, and they get tired. The Son(God in human form) was subject to all these, so that’s why he said that the Father(God in his true form) is greater than the Son.
In other words, when he said “The Father is greater than the Son”, he meant “My divine nature is greater than my human nature.”


You cannot understand God. But Jesus is God, and the Son of God.

PS: I can’t get some parts of this to highlight. I hope you don’t mind.

AbuTwins:


Allaah says in Soorat al-Nisa’ (interpretation of the meaning):
“O people of the Scripture (Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allaah aught but the truth. The Messiah ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allaah and His Word, (“Be!” — and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rooh) created by Him; so believe in Allaah and His Messengers. Say not: ‘Three (trinity)!’ Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allaah is (the only) One Ilaah (God), glory is to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allaah is All‑Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.

172. The Messiah will never be proud to reject to be a slave of Allaah, nor the angels who are the near (to Allaah). And whosoever rejects His worship and is proud, then He will gather them all together unto Himself.

173. So, as for those who believed (in the Oneness of Allaah — Islamic Monotheism) and did deeds of righteousness, He will give them their (due) rewards — and more out of His Bounty. But as for those who refused His worship and were proud, He will punish them with a painful torment. And they will not find for themselves besides Allaah any protector or helper”

[al-Nisa’ 4:171-173]

AbuTwins:


It would have been better if you had done it as usual.
Jesus was never on earth in Hebrew or Revelations!

Show us where Jesus called himself God like the God in the OT did!

Isaiah 44:6
“This is what the LORD says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Deuteronomy 4:35
You were shown these things so that you would know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides Him.

Psalm 86:10
For You are great and perform wonders; You alone are God.

Isaiah 43:15
I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

Isaiah 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,

Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I am He; there is no God besides Me. I bring death and I give life; I wound and I heal, and there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

Psalm 18:31
For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

Isaiah 43:10
"You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may consider and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me no god was formed, and after Me none will come.

LordAbove:


“ It would have been better if you had done it as usual.”
I don’t comment on Nairaland that much, so I never cared to understand how the attributes work.
You may have to deal with this for now, please.

And the verses you just put down do not disprove anything I said. It is only reiterating that Jesus is indeed God.
Look at the verses you put down, and see how God says that there is no other God apart from him. But then in Hebrews 1, he calls Jesus God.
Whoa, did God just lie?
Or could it be that truly Jesus and God are one and the same?
The latter is the case, my friend, because Jesus also declared that when he said “I and my Father are one”, and “The Father is in me, and I am in the Father”.

And since you’re springing out verses from the Old Testament, why did you leave out the part where God is the Creator?
Then in the New Testament, Jesus is called the Creator.

You do not understand the doctrine of God. No one can. Know this and know peace.

Jesus is God, and the Son of God.

AbuTwins:


This is exactly what i have been saying. The verses in the old testament did not mention Jesus!
Nowhere in the New Testament did Jesus call himself the creator! Someone will write a statement and it will be attributed to Jesus!

I and my father are one if read in context exposes the meaning as oneness of purpose and not oneness of persons!

You are still interpreting and reinterpreting to derive your Jesus is God!

The verses i stated didn't need any interpretation!
Show us where Jesus said clearly "I am God" or "worship me" or "There's no God beside me"!

AbuTwins:


This is exactly what i have been saying. The verses in the old testament did not mention Jesus!
Nowhere in the New Testament did Jesus call himself the creator! Someone will write a statement and it will be attributed to Jesus!

I and my father are one if read in context exposes the meaning as oneness of purpose and not oneness of persons!

You are still interpreting and reinterpreting to derive your Jesus is God!

The verses i stated didn't need any interpretation!
Show us where Jesus said clearly "I am God" or "worship me" or "There's no God beside me"!

AbuTwins:
They are all copies of copies!
There's no original manuscript anywhere!
And even at that, no two manuscripts is exactly the same!

How will i believe something as clearly dubious as that!

It is unfounded yet read into the Bible so much so that you'll think it is written there in black and white!
And the way the Bible translators are removing trinity verses and readding it later needs to be studied!

Even if you have such manuscripts that's about a hundred years after Jesus! There are many manuscripts but no two manuscripts are exactly the same!

What do you know about the manuscripts? Who wrote it? Where was it copied from? Who preserved it? When was it written? Are the writers Christians and of sound memory/moral character?

So which of the manuscripts you have is the original?

It can be manipulated!

Let me give you an example in the Old Testament to ginger you!

How old was Saul when he became King?
How long did he reigned over Israel?

1 Samuel 13:1
1.NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION
Saul was thirty years old when he became king, and he reigned over Israel forty- two years.

2. ENGLISH STANDARD VERSION
Saul lived for one year and then became king, and when he had reigned for two years over Israel.

3. KING JAMES BIBLE
Saul reigned one year; and when he had reigned two years over Israel

4. NET BIBLE
Saul was [thirty] years old when he began to reign; he ruled over Israel for [forty] years.

5. NEW AMERICAN STANDARD BIBLE 1977
Saul was forty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned thirty-two years over Israel.

6. JPS TANAKH 1917
Saul was --years old when he began to reign; and two years he reigned over Israel.

7. AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION
Saul was forty years old when he began to reign; and when he had reigned two years over Israel

8. YOUNG'S LITERAL VERSION
A son of a year is Saul in his reigning, yea, two years he hath reigned over Israel

I lie you not!

https://www.nairaland.com/8067594/abu-chats-two-christians-bible

SIRTee15:


Another gbagaun.
I will show U where Jesus said worship me and also where he's called creator in the new testament.

Jesus as creator of life

Colossians 1
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in Jesus all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him
and for him.

1 Corinthians 8
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Acts 3
15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.

Jesus demands worship.

John 5
22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honour the Father who sent him.

Abu twin has no shame. This is someone who can not defend the Qur'an but denied it. First go and read the Qur'an and answer my simple question

If Jesus is the indeed the son of Allah, should he be worshipped?

Your knowledge of the bible is zero and very embarrassing for a Muslim apologetics. U dont know the bible.
Take this as a sincere advice.

SIRTee15:


Another gbagaun.
I will show U where Jesus said worship me and also where he's called creator in the new testament.

Jesus as creator of life

Colossians 1
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in Jesus all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him
and for him.

1 Corinthians 8
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Acts 3
15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.

Jesus demands worship.

John 5
22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honour the Father who sent him.

Abu twin has no shame. This is someone who can not defend the Qur'an but denied it. First go and read the Qur'an and answer my simple question

If Jesus is the indeed the son of Allah, should he be worshipped?

Your knowledge of the bible is zero and very embarrassing for a Muslim apologetics. U dont know the bible.
Take this as a sincere advice.