AbuTwins:
You inferred this. He was human born through the vagina, was breast fed, cried, was even protected by humans!

This is a misinterpretation from your Bible translators. Ego Eimi occurs in many places in the New Testament but only in John 8:58 was it translated as I am!

Prophets of God can intercede for humans to seek God's forgiveness!

So if you call your dad father then you become equal to him? How does this make sense to you?

So if i send you a message at a time when there was no SMS, internet, phones, etc, is seeing the messenger not the same as seeing the sender of the message?

Jesus forgot to say this when he was walking around preaching to people! Na John come dey see things for vision!

So if God sent Jesus message that means Jesus is not God! If Jesus too can send Holy spirit message then that means the three are not coequal. They don't have equal power! So God is not the son nor the spirit!

He never accepted worship but homage! Many other men of God accepted such homage like Joseph whose whole family worshipped him.

Give us a Bible verse that describes Jesus as only incarnate son of God? Abeg John 3:16 didn't say incarnate son o!

How can son of God = God?

I know you guys are desperate to make Jesus God!
But he is simply human!

LordAbove:


Do I have to go over what I already said before?
I told you that God took on human form and called that form the Son of God. We know that as Jesus.

So prior to that, Jesus could not have been seen in the Old Testament except you mention the rare occasions he appeared to Abraham as Melchizedek. Or when he wrestled with Jacob as The Angel of the Lord, and afterwards, Jacob even said I have wrestled with “God”. Or when he appeared to Manoah as The Angel of the Lord, and Manoah said “We have seen God”.
These are all the pre-incarnate forms of Jesus before he ever took on flesh.

When he declared himself as God, I am, he said to the Pharisees;
“Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
This is the meeting of Melchizedek and Abraham as he returned from the slaughter of kings. This heavenly event recorded the first tithe, but most importantly, the first communion of our Lord and God, Jesus Christ.

The Pharisees claimed he was too young to claim he ever met Abraham, and what did Jesus answer?
He declared himself God.
“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
He used the very first name God used when he spoke to Moses on the burning bush. I AM!
That is why the Pharisees got mad and tried to stone him because they thought he was blaspheming. But he wasn’t.

About Jesus being the Creator, have you ever read John 1?
The verse 3 of it says;
“Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.”

Colossians 1:15-17 also says the same thing.
“The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

I already explained to you why he didn’t declare himself as God outrightly. It was because he had taken the form of human, therefore he had become human.
After the resurrection, he could walk through walls and even ascend. He glorified that human form he called the Son. And that is why when Thomas worshipped him saying “My Lord and my God”, he answered Thomas and said "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Jesus is the Creator. Jesus is God. Jesus is the Son of God.

Ken4Christ:


You asked, how can Son of God be God?

Is like asking, how can Son of man be man?

Use your common sense.

LordAbove:
AbuTwins,
SIRTee just provided you with other verses of Scripture that show that Jesus is the Creator.
There are other verses too that haven’t even been mentioned.
Please do your due diligence first, before trying to refute Scripture with Scripture that only prove Scripture.

Let him who reads, understand.

AbuTwins:


Show me a verse where God Himself said He took human form! It was not God talking in John 1:1.
Jesus was never in Hebrew or all this Colossians and Corinthians you are quoting!

How did you know it was Jesus in the Old testament from the old testament without reading your thoughts into it?

How did he declare himself as God here? The Ego Eimi in John 8:58 is not the same as in Exodus 3:14. And there are many verses that has same eigo eimi but was translated as "i am he".

I think this has been cleared just above! Ego eimi is "i am he" not "i am"!


Was it Jesus talking in John 1:1?

Was it Jesus talking here?



Even after the resurrection he still said he was going to his God to your God!
God does not have another God!

Emusan:


But there must be the FIRST COPY which is original.

You're lying

Majority of manuscripts are the same.

So why do you want me to read it, if you don't believe what was written there?

This has not proved your point that THE NEW TESTAMENT was created to make Jesus God.

Now, can we agree that The New Testament actually attested that Jesus God?
So that we move to next line.

Stop this lies.

Majority of the manuscripts we have in possession read the same and this is the reason why people can compare them to each other.

Manuscripts are the written of the olds we found and are using today.

The original writer wrote it.

Copied from the Original.

Those in possession of it during their time preserve it.

Each have the date as we know today.

Yes! They are all Christians.

Or is it Muslims who wrote them?

This is senseless question.

All manuscripts are their own original but the first WRITING where those manuscripts copy from are different.

Yes! Just like Quran too but the fact that we have different manuscripts written at different time and places shows there are not manipulated to much extended.

We're talking about the New Testament and who it was created to make Jesus God.

So, do you agree that reading the New Testament one can actually conclude that Jesus is God?

So that we move one.

You lied!

I don't need to be directed to another thread.

In Summary:

1. You can't proof that the New Testament was CREATED to make Jesus God.

2. One reading the New Testament can actually conclude that Jesus is God.

These are the two points.

AbuTwins:


Where did Jesus say he is God?

You are bringing other's opinion of Jesus!

Paul said..
John said..
Luke said..
Translations and retranslations....
Where did Jesus mentioned himself to be God?


Where did Jesus preached "I am God" or "Worship me" to anyone he ever preached to?

AbuTwins:
Where did Jesus say he is God?

You are bringing other's opinion of Jesus!

Paul said..
John said..
Luke said..
Translations and retranslations....

Where did Jesus mentioned himself to be God?

Where did Jesus preached "I am God" or "Worship me" to anyone he ever preached to?

LordAbove:


This is comical at this point. You’re not even providing anything else to support your argument. You’re just trying to misinterpret Scripture.
It’s pathetic.

“Was it Jesus talking here”, “Was it Jesus talking here”, “Was it Jesus talking here”.
Does that sound like an argument to you, my friend?
These were the accounts of people who were with Jesus. Who fellowshiped with him, and heard him speak.
They agreed that he is God, but you would rather come up to me 2000+ years later and tell me they misunderstood Jesus?
Listen to yourself. Does that make sense to you?

And I have explained the pre-incarnate form of Jesus to you, but you do not believe that either. I cannot force you to believe, my friend. Far be it from me.

What, do you want me to show to you in the genealogy of Adam, the prophecy that Jesus is God?
“Man is appointed mortal sorrow. But the blessed God shall come down teaching, and his death shall bring the despairing comfort.”
Doesn’t that again just prove that God took on the form of a human as stated in Philippians 2, and he called that human form the Son of God.

You would argue that too, just as you would argue everything that I show you while you are unable to prove anything yourself, but just trying to misinterpret Scripture.

As I said to you in my last comment, do your due diligence first. Try to get some education on the doctrine of God before coming at us with your heretic beliefs.
Until then, God bless you and yours.
Have a wonderful rest of your day.

AbuTwins:


Paul who wrote over half of the New testament never fellowshipped with Jesus!
Same as Luke who wrote 2 Books and Mark!

Jesus preached to thousands and fed them! But never for once say He was God!
He did miracles! But never for once say He was God!
He said he was not all-Knowing! He was asked the hour and he said only the Father knows it not the son!
He worshipped God many times! Of course he can't worship himself!

If the Bible actually preached Jesus was God, there won't be need for the council of Nicaea and others to fix the divinity of Christ, the Holy spirit and their relationship!

The doctrine of God is Hear O Israel the Lord our God is One (not three in one)!

Emusan:


This is the reason why, you're trying to claim what is not.

With this, it's evident that reading New Testament alone one can conclude that Jesus is God.

About this let's me use this approach (if only you will not run away from it).

If I stand in front of you and I tell you 'from today I want you to honour me JUST AS you honour Allah's

1. Will you call for my head as blasphemy?

2. How will you interpret that?

LordAbove:


Paul never fellowshipped with Jesus, but he encountered him on the road to Damascus. And every of his letters were inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Isn’t it interesting that you would try to isolate Paul’s testimony and try to discredit it, while you ignore the accounts of Luke and John who had firsthand witness of this?

Get some education on this.
God is three, and God is one.
Jesus is God, and the Son of God.

AbuTwins:
There is no first copy! All manuscripts available are copies of copies! You must have researched this already instead of you covering up this with a counter accusation! All Bible scholars are agreed on this! The originals does not exists anywhere! And no one ever memorized the NT in Greek to preserve it by such method!

I am not a fool. I read the KJV then the RSV writers claim KJV is marred with great defects....! What the heck!
How will i believe such when millions died reading and believing the KJV hook, line and sinker!

Where did Jesus himself say he is God? The councils made Jesus God! And this interpretation was made into the Bible.

Mention two manuscripts that is exactly the same to the letters?


Where was it written?

What are their names?

Where is the original?

Who are they?

Where is your proof?

Where is your proof? Christianity is a name first used by non-christians!

So why did the RSV writers claim the manuscript Erasmus used in compiling the KJV is marred with serious defects?

Do you know who Erasmus was? Is his manuscript too copied from the originals as you said?

If you asked me who copied the Qur'an into one book and all those questions i asked which you refused to answer i will answer you! You don't need divert at this point!

If someone without prior knowledge of trinity as Christians believed it nowadays reads the Bible he would only see a worshipper of God in Jesus not him as God!

These are false!
Jesus didn't make any claim to be God!

Some of the proofs has been stated at the OP in the beginning of this thread!

AbuTwins:
Of course this if a false conclusion!

No, i won't call for your head as i am not authorised to do that! But i can help the authorities to catch you for the law to try you.

The interpretation is easy! The Biblical context does not exist in the Qur'an!

Allah already said He begets no one nor is He begotten!
And there's no one comparable unto Him!

The Biblical context is clear
Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son, so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. John 5:22-25

Does "honor" here mean "worship" to you?
The word in red shows Jesus was a messenger!
God is not sending himself message!

Honor the messenger as you would honor the sender of the message!
This does not mean we should call Jesus God!

Emusan:


Wrong conclusion yet you claimed the New Testament was created to make Jesus God.

Where did you derive your point from then?

Good which means you know the gravity of that statement.

This is just smoke screen.

You already stated above that you'll call the authority for me because you know the gravity of that state.

So, why will you call the authority for me?

AbuTwins:
Go to the OP!

The statement is ludicrous!

The smokescreen is the truth!

You always disregard context and just pick verses on face value!

I will call the authority on you so that you won't be lynched by those who take laws into their hands!

AbuTwins:


Paul Himself says in 2 Corinthians 11:14
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

So the light he saw coming from Damascus is no different!

So we agree Paul, Luke and Mark didn't fellowshipped with Jesus!

There are clear verses God is One but not three!
There are clear verses God is God and Lord!
But none for Jesus is God!
Even no clear verses for the Holy Spirit is God!

You all used the trinitarian mindset to interpret the Bible!

AbuTwins:


O Apologies my good!

How can the son of God = God the father himself?

Emusan:


You're still confusing yourself here.

That scholars says the original does not exist doesn't mean there's no ORIGINAL, what that means is that of what we have today, we haven't discovered the very WRITING OF REVELATION pen down by John himself.

But before copy THERE MUST BE ORIGINAL.

KJV is just a version NOT A MANUSCRIPTS, RSV is also a version translated to English Language.

So I don't know your point here.

You're going back.

I've already told you that New Testament text already in existence before those councils.

So the councils can't made Jesus God, rather it was The New Testament the Council derived that Jesus is God.

No need to drag this for long.

Just answer my question,

Do you then mean that the New Testament is fake?

KJV used Textual Receptus for the New Testament. You can't blame them if there's any error on it.

But this supported my claim that the New Testament was not manipulated as more manuscripts were discovered to compare with each other.

So how did you come with your statement "How the New Testament was used to create Jesus as God?"

Then you're contradicting yourself.

You claimed "The New Testament was created to make Jesus God" and on the other hands you are trying to claim the same New Testament proves Jesus isn't God.

So make your final decision and stop preambulating.

AbuTwins:


Paul Himself says in 2 Corinthians 11:14
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

So the light he saw coming from Damascus is no different!

So we agree Paul, Luke and Mark didn't fellowshipped with Jesus!

There are clear verses God is One but not three!
There are clear verses God is God and Lord!
But none for Jesus is God!
Even no clear verses for the Holy Spirit is God!

You all used the trinitarian mindset to interpret the Bible!

LordAbove:


Oh, so now Jesus is Satan? Lol.
I’m glad you brought that verse up. I did not want to cross any line by bringing it up, but since you have then so be it.

And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
This was written through the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit, and we know that God is all-knowing, right?
So it’s safe to assume that the Angel that appeared to Muhammad and gave him the Quran is of unknown origins even if you testify that it was Gabriel.
We can not authenticate that. Therefore, It was Satan masquerading as an Angel of light.
Paul goes on to say in Galatians 1:8;
“But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!“
So we know that whatever testimony that is not inspired by God just like the Books of Moses for example, who went up to Mount Sinai and wrote down the word of God. Or the books of the Apostles who the Spirit of God inspired to write the Gospels, anything else is of the Devil.

I tried to end this on a good note, and asked you to get more education on that subject. But if you choose to cross lines, and say that Jesus is Satan, then I can do the same and call your book the word of Satan.

AbuTwins:


Jesus is not Satan and i never said or meant that in any way!

Ken4Christ:


Who said he is God the Father himself?

He is not. But he has the very nature of God in him. He is God in human flesh. He is the full expression of God the Father.

LordAbove:


I may have misunderstood you then.
If you have any Scriptural texts to prove your doctrine, then I will hear you out.

Until then.

LordAbove:



I honestly think you should get some more education on this, and we can continue at a later time.
You’re not looking at the evidences submitted, instead you’re looking for ways to interpret them to fit your narrative.
Every one can do that.

Get some more education on this, and if you feel you have enough to prove your doctrine to me, I’ll hear you out.
Thank you.

AbuTwins:
The originals does not exist! And as usual copyist error always crept it when voluminous books are copied as far back as about 2000 years ago! There's no originals to fact check the copies!

The copies of copies can't be like the originals!

Of course i will reframe my point.

The King James Version (KJV) was translated using the Textus Receptus.
The Revised Standard Version (RSV) on the other hand uses the Masoretic Text and the Greek critical texts! Hence the writers of the latter affirms grave errors in the Textus Receptus used for the former!

They said:
The King James Version of the New Testament was based upon a Greek text that was marred by mistakes, containing the accumulated errors of fourteen centuries of manuscript copying. It was essentially the Greek text of the New Testament as edited by Beza, 1589, who closely followed that published by Erasmus, 1516-1535, which was based upon a few medieval manuscripts. The earliest and best of the eight manuscripts which Erasmus consulted was from the tenth century, and he made the least use of it because it differed most from the commonly received text; Beza had access to two manuscripts of great value, dating from the fifth and sixth centuries, but he made very little use of them because they differed from the text published by Erasmus.

If this was true then then the Arian controversy won't have existed!

Arius was a Christian priest in Alexandria in the 4th century.
He believed that Jesus was a created being and not equal to God the Father.
His teachings led to the Arian controversy, a major theological dispute in early Christianity.

You should convince me otherwise!

But you said the manuscripts were the same! Where did the error come from? Can you believe that God would allow millions die on a error filled version of the Bible? KJV has been translated to many languages even the ones in Nigerian languages are mostly KJV!

This is clear in the OP!

By translating the word which means bowing or kneeling as homage to mean worship whenever Jesus is around!

In the Old and New Testament, men of God were greeting with bowing and kneeling!
The word worship was only used when God was around!

Then in the new testament people bow and kneel for humans like themselves but the word worship was never used!

Whenever Jesus was in the picture the bowing and kneeling turns to worship!

And when Jesus put his face to the ground to pray...that was not called worship!

AbuTwins:
The doctrine of the Council of Nicaea and Constantinople affirmed the creed of trinity and divinity of Christ!
This is the creed that you all use to interpret the Bible!

Emusan:


Let's recap from here, is the problem you have is BIBLE INTERPRETATION (which means you agree all Bible text are correct) or HOW NEW TESTAMENT WAS CREATED TO MAKE JESUS GOD?

AbuTwins:
Was that response for you?
Why are you jumping from yours to others?

AbuTwins:


Show me a verse where God Himself said He took human form! It was not God talking in John 1:1.
Jesus was never in Hebrew or all this Colossians and Corinthians you are quoting!

How did you know it was Jesus in the Old testament from the old testament without reading your thoughts into it?

How did he declare himself as God here? The Ego Eimi in John 8:58 is not the same as in Exodus 3:14. And there are many verses that has same eigo eimi but was translated as "i am he".

I think this has been cleared just above! Ego eimi is "i am he" not "i am"!


Was it Jesus talking in John 1:1?

Was it Jesus talking here?



Even after the resurrection he still said he was going to his God to your God!
God does not have another God!

AbuTwins:


So Jesus is God in Human flesh and yet still worshipped God? Where did Jesus say he has the same nature of God in him?

Does it mean that the father and spirit too can become human and die like Jesus?

Is Jesus coequal with the father and Spirit? If yes, Prove it?

Qasim6:


What is it with the If?
God says he has no son, so why waste your time with the ifs?

Q 21:26
And they say: the Merciful has adopted a son; glorified is He, but they are honoured servants.

The term "son of God" is just honorific title. That's how the Jews understood it, it's the pagan Romans that took the term to another level with Jesus.