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Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by Ken4Christ: 11:53am On Apr 30 |
AbuTwins: You asked, how can Son of God be God? Is like asking, how can Son of man be man? Use your common sense. |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by AbuTwins: 12:09pm On Apr 30 |
LordAbove: Show me a verse where God Himself said He took human form! It was not God talking in John 1:1. Jesus was never in Hebrew or all this Colossians and Corinthians you are quoting! So prior to that, Jesus could not have been seen in the Old Testament except you mention the rare occasions he appeared to Abraham as Melchizedek. Or when he wrestled with Jacob as The Angel of the Lord, and afterwards, Jacob even said I have wrestled with “God”. Or when he appeared to Manoah as The Angel of the Lord, and Manoah said “We have seen God”.How did you know it was Jesus in the Old testament from the old testament without reading your thoughts into it? When he declared himself as God, I am, he said to the Pharisees;How did he declare himself as God here? The Ego Eimi in John 8:58 is not the same as in Exodus 3:14. And there are many verses that has same eigo eimi but was translated as "i am he". The Pharisees claimed he was too young to claim he ever met Abraham, and what did Jesus answer?I think this has been cleared just above! Ego eimi is "i am he" not "i am"! About Jesus being the Creator, have you ever read John 1?Was it Jesus talking in John 1:1? Colossians 1:15-17 also says the same thing.Was it Jesus talking here? I already explained to you why he didn’t declare himself as God outrightly. It was because he had taken the form of human, therefore he had become human. Even after the resurrection he still said he was going to his God to your God! God does not have another God! |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by AbuTwins: 12:11pm On Apr 30 |
Ken4Christ: O Apologies my good! How can the son of God = God the father himself? |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by AbuTwins: 12:16pm On Apr 30 |
LordAbove: Where did Jesus say he is God? You are bringing other's opinion of Jesus! Paul said.. John said.. Luke said.. Translations and retranslations.... Where did Jesus mentioned himself to be God? Where did Jesus preached "I am God" or "Worship me" to anyone he ever preached to? |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by LordAbove: 12:26pm On Apr 30 |
AbuTwins: This is comical at this point. You’re not even providing anything else to support your argument. You’re just trying to misinterpret Scripture. It’s pathetic. “Was it Jesus talking here”, “Was it Jesus talking here”, “Was it Jesus talking here”. Does that sound like an argument to you, my friend? These were the accounts of people who were with Jesus. Who fellowshiped with him, and heard him speak. They agreed that he is God, but you would rather come up to me 2000+ years later and tell me they misunderstood Jesus? Listen to yourself. Does that make sense to you? And I have explained the pre-incarnate form of Jesus to you, but you do not believe that either. I cannot force you to believe, my friend. Far be it from me. What, do you want me to show to you in the genealogy of Adam, the prophecy that Jesus is God? “Man is appointed mortal sorrow. But the blessed God shall come down teaching, and his death shall bring the despairing comfort.” Doesn’t that again just prove that God took on the form of a human as stated in Philippians 2, and he called that human form the Son of God. You would argue that too, just as you would argue everything that I show you while you are unable to prove anything yourself, but just trying to misinterpret Scripture. As I said to you in my last comment, do your due diligence first. Try to get some education on the doctrine of God before coming at us with your heretic beliefs. Until then, God bless you and yours. Have a wonderful rest of your day.
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Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by AbuTwins: 12:36pm On Apr 30 |
Emusan:There is no first copy! All manuscripts available are copies of copies! You must have researched this already instead of you covering up this with a counter accusation! All Bible scholars are agreed on this! The originals does not exists anywhere! And no one ever memorized the NT in Greek to preserve it by such method! So why do you want me to read it, if you don't believe what was written there?I am not a fool. I read the KJV then the RSV writers claim KJV is marred with great defects....! What the heck! How will i believe such when millions died reading and believing the KJV hook, line and sinker! This has not proved your point that THE NEW TESTAMENT was created to make Jesus God. Where did Jesus himself say he is God? The councils made Jesus God! And this interpretation was made into the Bible. Stop this lies. Mention two manuscripts that is exactly the same to the letters? Manuscripts are the written of the olds we found and are using today.Where was it written? The original writer wrote it.What are their names? Copied from the Original.Where is the original? Those in possession of it during their time preserve it.Who are they? Each have the date as we know today.Where is your proof? Yes! They are all Christians.Where is your proof? Christianity is a name first used by non-christians! This is senseless question. So why did the RSV writers claim the manuscript Erasmus used in compiling the KJV is marred with serious defects? Do you know who Erasmus was? Is his manuscript too copied from the originals as you said? ![]() Yes! Just like Quran too but the fact that we have different manuscripts written at different time and places shows there are not manipulated to much extended.If you asked me who copied the Qur'an into one book and all those questions i asked which you refused to answer i will answer you! You don't need divert at this point! We're talking about the New Testament and who it was created to make Jesus God.If someone without prior knowledge of trinity as Christians believed it nowadays reads the Bible he would only see a worshipper of God in Jesus not him as God! You lied! These are false! Jesus didn't make any claim to be God! Some of the proofs has been stated at the OP in the beginning of this thread! |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by LordAbove: 12:38pm On Apr 30 |
AbuTwins: I already answered this in my last post to you. |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by Emusan(m): 12:41pm On Apr 30 |
AbuTwins: This is the reason why, you're trying to claim what is not. With this, it's evident that reading New Testament alone one can conclude that Jesus is God. Where did Jesus mentioned himself to be God? About this let's me use this approach (if only you will not run away from it). If I stand in front of you and I tell you 'from today I want you to honour me JUST AS you honour Allah's 1. Will you call for my head as blasphemy? 2. How will you interpret that? |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by AbuTwins: 12:44pm On Apr 30 |
LordAbove: Paul who wrote over half of the New testament never fellowshipped with Jesus! Same as Luke who wrote 2 Books and Mark! Jesus preached to thousands and fed them! But never for once say He was God! He did miracles! But never for once say He was God! He said he was not all-Knowing! He was asked the hour and he said only the Father knows it not the son! He worshipped God many times! Of course he can't worship himself! If the Bible actually preached Jesus was God, there won't be need for the council of Nicaea and others to fix the divinity of Christ, the Holy spirit and their relationship! The doctrine of God is Hear O Israel the Lord our God is One (not three in one)! |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by LordAbove: 12:49pm On Apr 30 |
AbuTwins: Paul never fellowshipped with Jesus, but he encountered him on the road to Damascus. And every of his letters were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Isn’t it interesting that you would try to isolate Paul’s testimony and try to discredit it, while you ignore the accounts of Luke and John who had firsthand witness of this? Get some education on this. God is three, and God is one. Jesus is God, and the Son of God. |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by AbuTwins: 1:00pm On Apr 30 |
Emusan: Of course this if a false conclusion! About this let's me use this approach (if only you will not run away from it).No, i won't call for your head as i am not authorised to do that! But i can help the authorities to catch you for the law to try you. 2. How will you interpret that?The interpretation is easy! The Biblical context does not exist in the Qur'an! Allah already said He begets no one nor is He begotten! And there's no one comparable unto Him! The Biblical context is clear Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son, so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. John 5:22-25 Does "honor" here mean "worship" to you? The word in red shows Jesus was a messenger! God is not sending himself message! Honor the messenger as you would honor the sender of the message! This does not mean we should call Jesus God! |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by AbuTwins: 1:05pm On Apr 30 |
LordAbove: Paul Himself says in 2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. So the light he saw coming from Damascus is no different! So we agree Paul, Luke and Mark didn't fellowshipped with Jesus! There are clear verses God is One but not three! There are clear verses God is God and Lord! But none for Jesus is God! Even no clear verses for the Holy Spirit is God! You all used the trinitarian mindset to interpret the Bible! |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by Emusan(m): 1:06pm On Apr 30 |
AbuTwins: You're still confusing yourself here. That scholars says the original does not exist doesn't mean there's no ORIGINAL, what that means is that of what we have today, we haven't discovered the very WRITING OF REVELATION pen down by John himself. But before copy THERE MUST BE ORIGINAL. I am not a fool. I read the KJV then the RSV writers claim KJV is marred with great defects....! What the heck! KJV is just a version NOT A MANUSCRIPTS, RSV is also a version translated to English Language. So I don't know your point here. Where did Jesus himself say he is God? The councils made Jesus God! And this interpretation was made into the Bible. You're going back. I've already told you that New Testament text already in existence before those councils. So the councils can't made Jesus God, rather it was The New Testament the Council derived that Jesus is God. Mention two manuscripts that is exactly the same to the letters? No need to drag this for long. Just answer my question, Do you then mean that the New Testament is fake? So why did the RSV writers claim the manuscript Erasmus used in compiling the KJV is marred with serious defects? KJV used Textual Receptus for the New Testament. You can't blame them if there's any error on it. But this supported my claim that the New Testament was not manipulated as more manuscripts were discovered to compare with each other. If you asked me who copied the Qur'an into one book and all those questions i asked which you refused to answer i will answer you! You don't need divert at this point! No point here! If someone without prior knowledge of trinity as Christians believed it nowadays reads the Bible he would only see a worshipper of God in Jesus not him as God! So how did you come with your statement "How the New Testament was used to create Jesus as God?" These are false! Answer the above question then Some of the proofs has been stated at the OP in the beginning of this thread! Then you're contradicting yourself. You claimed "The New Testament was created to make Jesus God" and on the other hands you are trying to claim the same New Testament proves Jesus isn't God. So make your final decision and stop preambulating. |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by Emusan(m): 1:10pm On Apr 30 |
AbuTwins: Wrong conclusion yet you claimed the New Testament was created to make Jesus God. Where did you derive your point from then? No, i won't call for your head as i am not authorised to do that! But i can help the authorities to catch you for the law to try you. Good which means you know the gravity of that statement. The interpretation is easy! The Biblical context does not exist in the Qur'an! This is just smoke screen. You already stated above that you'll call the authority for me because you know the gravity of that state. So, why will you call the authority for me? |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by AbuTwins: 1:17pm On Apr 30 |
Emusan:Go to the OP! Good which means you know the gravity of that statement.The statement is ludicrous! This is just smoke screen. The smokescreen is the truth! You always disregard context and just pick verses on face value! I will call the authority on you so that you won't be lynched by those who take laws into their hands! |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by Emusan(m): 1:23pm On Apr 30 |
AbuTwins: From the OP Who are those who made Jesus God for the Christian? The statement is ludicrous! It's not! If it is you won't call the authority. The smokescreen is the truth! Never! You always disregard context and just pick verses on face value! You do that not me. I will call the authority on you so that you won't be lynched by those who take laws into their hands! Good! This is because you know the gravity of that statement even though you want to shy away from it causing you nothing. But the truth is, for you to say PEOPLE WILL LYNCH ME says a lot which I'm very sure you're the first person who will start the lynching. |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by LordAbove: 1:26pm On Apr 30 |
AbuTwins: Oh, so now Jesus is Satan? Lol. I’m glad you brought that verse up. I did not want to cross any line by bringing it up, but since you have then so be it. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. This was written through the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit, and we know that God is all-knowing, right? So it’s safe to assume that the Angel that appeared to Muhammad and gave him the Quran is of unknown origins even if you testify that it was Gabriel. We can not authenticate that. Therefore, It was Satan masquerading as an Angel of light. Paul goes on to say in Galatians 1:8; “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!“ So we know that whatever testimony that is not inspired by God just like the Books of Moses for example, who went up to Mount Sinai and wrote down the word of God. Or the books of the Apostles who the Spirit of God inspired to write the Gospels, anything else is of the Devil. I tried to end this on a good note, and asked you to get more education on that subject. But if you choose to cross lines, and say that Jesus is Satan, then I can do the same and call your book the word of Satan. 1 Like |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by Ken4Christ: 1:31pm On Apr 30 |
AbuTwins: Who said he is God the Father himself? He is not. But he has the very nature of God in him. He is God in human flesh. He is the full expression of God the Father. |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by AbuTwins: 1:40pm On Apr 30 |
Emusan:The originals does not exist! And as usual copyist error always crept it when voluminous books are copied as far back as about 2000 years ago! There's no originals to fact check the copies! The copies of copies can't be like the originals! KJV is just a version NOT A MANUSCRIPTS, RSV is also a version translated to English Language.Of course i will reframe my point. The King James Version (KJV) was translated using the Textus Receptus. The Revised Standard Version (RSV) on the other hand uses the Masoretic Text and the Greek critical texts! Hence the writers of the latter affirms grave errors in the Textus Receptus used for the former! They said: The King James Version of the New Testament was based upon a Greek text that was marred by mistakes, containing the accumulated errors of fourteen centuries of manuscript copying. It was essentially the Greek text of the New Testament as edited by Beza, 1589, who closely followed that published by Erasmus, 1516-1535, which was based upon a few medieval manuscripts. The earliest and best of the eight manuscripts which Erasmus consulted was from the tenth century, and he made the least use of it because it differed most from the commonly received text; Beza had access to two manuscripts of great value, dating from the fifth and sixth centuries, but he made very little use of them because they differed from the text published by Erasmus. You're going back.If this was true then then the Arian controversy won't have existed! Arius was a Christian priest in Alexandria in the 4th century. He believed that Jesus was a created being and not equal to God the Father. His teachings led to the Arian controversy, a major theological dispute in early Christianity. No need to drag this for long.You should convince me otherwise! KJV used Textual Receptus for the New Testament. You can't blame them if there's any error on it.But you said the manuscripts were the same! Where did the error come from? Can you believe that God would allow millions die on a error filled version of the Bible? KJV has been translated to many languages even the ones in Nigerian languages are mostly KJV! So how did you come with your statement "How the New Testament was used to create Jesus as God?"This is clear in the OP! By translating the word which means bowing or kneeling as homage to mean worship whenever Jesus is around! Then you're contradicting yourself. In the Old and New Testament, men of God were greeting with bowing and kneeling! The word worship was only used when God was around! Then in the new testament people bow and kneel for humans like themselves but the word worship was never used! Whenever Jesus was in the picture the bowing and kneeling turns to worship! And when Jesus put his face to the ground to pray...that was not called worship! |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by LordAbove: 1:41pm On Apr 30 |
AbuTwins: I honestly think you should get some more education on this, and we can continue at a later time. You’re not looking at the evidences submitted, instead you’re looking for ways to interpret them to fit your narrative. Every one can do that. Get some more education on this, and if you feel you have enough to prove your doctrine to me, I’ll hear you out. Thank you. |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by AbuTwins: 2:09pm On Apr 30 |
LordAbove: Jesus is not Satan and i never said or meant that in any way! Satan masquerade himself as Jesus! Jesus wasn't available at all! That's why Paul alone was able to write more Bible Books than all the disciples Jesus appointed while on earth! The Angel that appeared to Muhammad did appear to him as an Angel in the real form and this greatly disturbs the Prophet at first! The Angel did also appear to him when he was with his companions to teach them Islam! So the companions saw the Angel in human form asking the Prophet questions and confirming that he answered rightly! Paul couldn't have gone against himself in what he wrote bro! What is clear is that Jesus didn't appoint him before he left! He wasn't a fellow of Jesus! As for the curse, how did Paul end? Did he have any son after him? |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by LordAbove: 2:12pm On Apr 30 |
AbuTwins: I may have misunderstood you then. I do not want to respond to the other comments in your post because we would keep going back and forth all day. And neither of us will budge. If you have any Scriptural texts to prove your doctrine, then I will hear you out. Until then. |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by AbuTwins: 2:12pm On Apr 30 |
Ken4Christ: So Jesus is God in Human flesh and yet still worshipped God? Where did Jesus say he has the same nature of God in him? Does it mean that the father and spirit too can become human and die like Jesus? Is Jesus coequal with the father and Spirit? If yes, Prove it? |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by AbuTwins: 2:15pm On Apr 30 |
LordAbove: The doctrine of the Council of Nicaea and Constantinople affirmed the creed of trinity and divinity of Christ! This is the creed that you all use to interpret the Bible! |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by AbuTwins: 2:18pm On Apr 30 |
LordAbove: You have forgotten there are unitarian Christians who believe Jesus is not God and don't believe in trinity too! |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by Emusan(m): 2:27pm On Apr 30 |
AbuTwins: Here is the issue! If the original does not EXIST, how come we have COPIES? Just like you said, KJV is a VERSION not a manuscripts. If this was true then then the Arian controversy won't have existed! Good! So where did the Arian get their own book from that proves Jesus is a created being and not equal to the Father? Do you have this book today? You should convince me otherwise! That's what I'm doing here. But you said the manuscripts were the same! Where did the error come from? Can you believe that God would allow millions die on a error filled version of the Bible? KJV has been translated to many languages even the ones in Nigerian languages are mostly KJV! I said MAJORITY of the manuscripts we have today are the same. You don't get it, KJV is a version and as we're speaking there are THOUSANDS of Bible translations out there. This is clear in the OP! And you couldn't answer my question. Do you then mean the New Testament we have today is fake? Another thing I can infer from your post is that you're talking about translation. So it it translation you have problem with or the WHOLE OF THE NEW TESTAMENT for you to conclude that the New Testament was CREATED TO MAKE JESUS GOD? By translating the word which means bowing or kneeling as homage to mean worship whenever Jesus is around! That's the true meaning of those words. Jesus was worshipped and He accepted Worship. In the Old and New Testament, men of God were greeting with bowing and kneeling! You're right! But the claim of Jesus makes Him more than just man of God. That's why He accepted worship. Then in the new testament people bow and kneel for humans like themselves but the word worship was never used! It can't be used because they Are not God! Whenever Jesus was in the picture the bowing and kneeling turns to worship! Because Jesus is God And when Jesus put his face to the ground to pray...that was not called worship! You don't expect them to add to it. If the word worship was used there it will be added. |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by Emusan(m): 2:31pm On Apr 30 |
AbuTwins: Let's recap from here, is the problem you have is BIBLE INTERPRETATION (which means you agree all Bible text are correct) or HOW NEW TESTAMENT WAS CREATED TO MAKE JESUS GOD? |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by AbuTwins: 2:33pm On Apr 30 |
Emusan: Was that response for you? Why are you jumping from yours to others? |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by Emusan(m): 2:35pm On Apr 30 |
AbuTwins: This doesn't answer my question. I can jump to anywhere or is it not the same issue we're addressing? |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by SIRTee15: 3:24pm On Apr 30 |
AbuTwins: Jesus himself use his mouth to say he was physically present in the old testament. Matthew 22 41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?” “The son of David,” they replied. 43 Jesus said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says, 44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.”’[e] 45 If then David calls the Messiah ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” 46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions. Now Jesus was referring to psalm 110 in this passage and was making it clear David in the spirit saw the Messiah and wrote about him. I think we will turn this debate into a bible study class for AbuTwin. We will teach him out bible and not the dawahgandist he's been trained to parrot in the mosque. Here we will give him sound and true knowledge of our scriptures. Hopefully one day he will join his nairaland Muslim colleague to admit and confess Jesus Christ is divine. 1 Like |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by SIRTee15: 3:28pm On Apr 30 |
AbuTwins: Jesus said I and the Father are one. That's same nature. Another one... John 5 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but Jesus was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. I will come back later and explain divinity of Jesus and hypostatic union for you. Its only fair U understand what we believe. whether U accept or not is up to U. 1 Like |
Re: They Made Jesus God For Christians! by Antilslaam: 4:23pm On Apr 30 |
Qasim6: Is like you get small sense than your fellow slaves, oya explain the below verses as read in Quran Your allah wish to have a son Quran 39:4 If Allah had willed to choose a son, He could have chosen what He would of that which He hath created. Be He Glorified! He is Allah, the One, the Absolute. Meanwhile your allah has daughters Quran 37:153 Muhammad Asad “He has chosen daughters in preference to sons” Quran 37:153 Wahiduddin Khan Has He chosen daughters over sons Quran 37:153 Muhammad Ahmed & Samira He chose/purified the daughters on/over the sons AND THE DAUGTHERS ARE: Quran 53:19-21 Have you then considered Lat and ‘Uzza And another, the third, Manat Are the males for you and for Him the females |
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