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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless (3891 Views)
Religion ,atheism ,and Men's perspectives Concerning God. / The Hateful Language Of Atheism And Its Possible Effects On Society. / The Power Of A Simple Idea- Atheism And Its Spread (2) (3) (4)
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Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by FxMasterz: 6:48pm On Sep 04 |
Wilgrea7:Why should we concern ourselves with things external to our universe. The bolded is actually enough. Since you have admitted that these things are true as we view them from our universe, that's just enough. The rules of a system, including it's nature and how it functions say little to nothing about the nature of things external to the system. We have observed in our system that minds (a product of the rules of the system) create things with purpose.No one has assumed anything outside of our system. We do not even know if there's anything outside of our universe. So, why should we bother? I gave the example of a car earlier. I will try to give a more precise example.But we don't know if there are things outside the universe, so that's no argument at all. Going by this your logic, you make all knowledge acquired in this universe invalid because all the data, knowledge, education and all information we have in all our libraries were all gleaned from our observations and experiences within our universe. We got absolutely nothing from or about an extra-universe. Hence, you're saying that all knowledge humans have acquired within this universe might be right or wrong. We can never say because what we think we know might be different from what actually obtains outside our universe. I think, this is a very big flaw of this logic. Or is there any form of knowledge on earth that was gotten from outside of the universe? Point me to one. But until then, if your argument for the nature of something external to a system is based only on what you've observed in the system... then you're doing it all wrong.1. I do not concern myself with the nature of anything. The nature of the Creator is of no concern to me. My only point is that only the mind can create purpose. 2. I do not presume that the 'something' is external to our universe. Do you have any proof that this 'something' you're talking about is external to our universe? Also, I'll quickly point out that the reason I'm talking about outside the universe is because we're talking about a possible creator. Said creator would need to be outside something to "create" it.Humans create houses inside which they live. People create fences around themselves while they're still within the fence. The spider builds a web around itself while it still abides within the web. The Eastern Ten Caterpillar surrounds itself with froth from within itself. It builds and abides within its own froth. It is not true that a creator must be outside something to create it. If this wasn't clear enough, let me know. But i don't know how else I can try to explain this to you. I clearly understand your points right from the very beginning. Also... on a side note... I find your exchanges with the AI very laughable. Particularly the natural selection vs intelligent design argument. The fact that for some reason they're seen as opposites by anyone is downright laughable. You can't find it laughable after you yourself admitted in the beginning of this your response that my position is true from the perspective of our universe. What else do you want AI to do? |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by FxMasterz: 7:32pm On Sep 04 |
Wilgrea7:First, purpose is not a vague thing. For example, the purpose of Nairaland is to socialize. Is that vague? I will make some statements to try to better describe your position accurately. Feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.No, that's not correct. That's not the argument. It's not about a super mind wanting these things to happen and exist. No no no. The existence and/or sustenance of life itself is the purpose. We can confirm scientifically that these complex things are well designed and delicately calibrated to fulfil this singular purpose. Take note of the word 'calibrated.' The argument is that a mind wanted life to exist and therefore created such complex things that work harmoniously to make life exist. The problem with this line of thought is that the very chaos it tries to deny is not nothing. It is a something. A random box of metals won't create a car. But a box of metals is something. Please keep this in mindNo, this argument doesn't seek to deny chaos in anywa. I never said anything like that. If chaos can create monstrous complex things that can work in unison to fulfil a shared purpose, then it means chaos has a reasoning mind, and it can thus assume the position of a creator. The ability to create purposeful things is only vested in a mind because of the mind's ability to reason. Now my first question to you is, do you think/believe that things can exist without a purpose? Regardless of if the purpose is known or not.Things can exist without a purpose. But when some complex things exist to work harmoniously to fulfil a collective purpose, then that's not the result of any random occurrence. If your answer is no, then it means you believe everything that exists has a purpose, and therefore, was brought about by a mind. Welcome to infinite regress.[/quote[The creative mind of course . Thirdly, if a mind creates something, you'd agree it's not random. It's purposeful. Question is.. how then did said purposeful mind exist? Why would it exist?If you don't know how the creative mind existed, that does not mean the creative mind does not exist. I do not bother about how the mind exists. I do not need to see the sun or know how the sun rose to know that the sun has risen. If I see the effect of the sun or its rays, I'll know the sun has risen without asking any question. I have seen the effects of a mind and I can see the rays of a mind in the universe, and therefore know without asking questions that a mind has risen. These things are things only a mind can do. Only a mind can create a purpose. It doesn't matter if you appeal to complexity or purpose. The argument still shifts forward, and you are faced with either infinite regress, or determining some arbitrary point where something purposeful just has to exist without a preceding mind. The argument shifts nowhere. My argument does not hang on complexity or purpose. My argument hangs on intelligence plus complexity, plus harmony plus purpose. Those 4 cannot come together by chance. |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by Wilgrea7(m): 8:49pm On Sep 09 |
Apologies for the late response. It's been a busy week/weekend. FxMasterz: I disagree with you. I think the purpose of nairaland was simply to make the creator money. I change my mind. I think the purpose of nairaland was to have a platform where you could create as many threads as possible. Now do you get my point? No, that's not correct. That's not the argument. It's not about a super mind wanting these things to happen and exist. No no no. The existence and/or sustenance of life itself is the purpose. We can confirm scientifically that these complex things are well designed and delicately calibrated to fulfil this singular purpose. Take note of the word 'calibrated.' Okay. Noted No, this argument doesn't seek to deny chaos in anywa. I never said anything like that. If chaos can create monstrous complex things that can work in unison to fulfil a shared purpose, then it means chaos has a reasoning mind, and it can thus assume the position of a creator. The ability to create purposeful things is only vested in a mind because of the mind's ability to reason. I don't know if I already said this before. But when talking of the why things exist, I don't subscribe to the chaos vs order argument. I was initially trying to make a point which I think you responded to later on. Things can exist without a purpose. In what sense? How exactly? But when some complex things exist to work harmoniously to fulfil a collective purpose, then that's not the result of any random occurrence. So a short recap so we don't go around in circles. You believe things can exist without a purpose. You also believe the creator of a thing determines the purpose. Then without knowledge of the creator of a thing, how are you sure that something fulfils the purpose for which it was intended (by the creator)? Basically.. do you think your observation (as NOT the creator) of a thing could be wrong? Also... I want you to answer my question regarding how something purposeless can just "exist" but something purposeful can't. I'm very very curious to know. |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by jaephoenix(m): 9:45pm On Sep 09 |
FxMasterz:So calling someone a liar, deceitful, shameless etc isn't insult, when in fact, the person in question didn’t lie? |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by Wilgrea7(m): 10:42pm On Sep 09 |
FxMasterz: Enough in what sense? I literally talked about systems and how things aren't always the same outside a system as they are inside. No one has assumed anything outside of our system. We do not even know if there's anything outside of our universe. So, why should we bother? I feel like this is pretty self explanatory. We are talking about a possible creator of the universe... where else are we supposed to look? If you're trying to find out who made a pencil.. do you search inside the pencil? But we don't know if there are things outside the universe, so that's no argument at all. You're the one trying to posit the existence of some external super-mind. We don't know what exists outside our universe. You're using the idea of what we've observed to try to describe what could exist outside it. I'm just pointing out that it's faulty logic. Going by this your logic, you make all knowledge acquired in this universe invalid because all the data, knowledge, education and all information we have in all our libraries were all gleaned from our observations and experiences within our universe. We got absolutely nothing from or about an extra-universe. Hence, you're saying that all knowledge humans have acquired within this universe might be right or wrong. The person who observes that things fall down when you toss them up is 100% correct if he applies his logic to the boundaries of the system, being earth. No one is negating our observations here so far. Observations within the system do not necessarily translate to the reality outside the system. That was my point all along. We can never say because what we think we know might be different from what actually obtains outside our universe. I think, this is a very big flaw of this logic. Or is there any form of knowledge on earth that was gotten from outside of the universe? Point me to one. You've lost me... what do you mean? 1. I do not concern myself with the nature of anything. The nature of the Creator is of no concern to me. My only point is that only the mind can create purpose. You talk of a mind able to create purpose.... is that not something about the nature of said creator? 2. I do not presume that the 'something' is external to our universe. Do you have any proof that this 'something' you're talking about is external to our universe? Before the house was created, there was no "inside" or "outside".. there was just the environment. The creation of the house and living in it doesn't negate the fact that the builders of the house were in the area that would now be considered "outside" before the house was created. Let me give a very clear example. A plot of land is bought in a field... A house is built there.. fields have discernable properties, as do houses. When we talk of the creation of the house, we're talking of the time when the house, and the properties that define the house did not exist. The properties that defined the field are what existed on that plot of land. When we talk of the creation of the house, we are referring to the activities and processes that took place outside what you refer to as the house.. because at the time, the properties that defined the house did not exist in that area. To sum it all up... It is impossible to talk about the creation of a thing without making reference to what conditions existed before it was created. Also... if you're trying to imply that the creator may be inside said universe, then the floor is yours to prove it. Remember, you believe the creator is a super-mind capable of creating purpose. I'm curious to see how you define what a mind is, and how exactly the said mind would be clearly identified as existing within the system and not outside it. |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by HellVictorinho8(m): 12:34pm On Sep 10 |
Wilgrea7: can u help me wit any murni pls |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by jaephoenix(m): 2:55pm On Sep 10 |
FxMasterz:Oga, you said your post isn't about intelligent design. Now I have proved that your post was actually about intelligent design. Now you're screaming I should have added other posts. How do I cram all your posts in one screenshot? How do you think it would fit? Are you always dense 24/7? |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by jaephoenix(m): 2:59pm On Sep 10 |
FxMasterz:https://www.nairaland.com/8193100/completely-destroys-atheism-renders-atheists#131647987 Above is my first mention of you. Where did I insult you this mo.. ron? Also which insults did I crop out? |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by jaephoenix(m): 9:48am On Sep 11 |
FxMasterz:You ignore posts you can't counter. Oya counter that one |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by jaephoenix(m): 9:50am On Sep 11 |
FxMasterz:I thought said AI argues against creationism. Now youre saying it doesn't believe or disbelieve anything. LMAO |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by FxMasterz: 2:01pm On Sep 11 |
jaephoenix: That it can argue doesn't mean it can believe. It's argument is knowledge based. Not because it believes anything. |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by FxMasterz: 2:02pm On Sep 11 |
jaephoenix: Every post have been countered. |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by FxMasterz: 2:03pm On Sep 11 |
jaephoenix: Trace the post. The moment I proved that I truly floored you, what was your response? |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by FxMasterz: 2:04pm On Sep 11 |
jaephoenix: It's not about intelligent design. I have clarified this to you in a latter post. You see again another fresh insult from you at the bolded. Even after I apologized for doing you absolutely nothing. I might start ignoring you. I consider you a very immature kid worthy of no response. You will still lie that you never insulted me or that I was the first. Are you not even ashamed of yourself? Well, people like you don't actually have self worth. |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by FxMasterz: 3:11pm On Sep 11 |
Wilgrea7:Enough because you cannot prove that there's something outside of this system. You atheists say you believe only what you can see and be proven. Now, because you've met a superior argument, you want to start arguing based on what you cannot see and cannot be proven. We have no knowledge of any outside system. We cannot base our conclusions on what no one has ever claimed to exist. I feel like this is pretty self explanatory. We are talking about a possible creator of the universe... where else are we supposed to look? If you're trying to find out who made a pencil.. do you search inside the pencil?The argument has a very obvious imbalance. It is not always true that you must be outside of a thing before you create that thing. You're the one trying to posit the existence of some external super-mind. We don't know what exists outside our universe. You're using the idea of what we've observed to try to describe what could exist outside it. I'm just pointing out that it's faulty logic.We're do not need to apply the logic of an imaginary universe. That's mental gymnastics. No one is negating our observations here so far. Observations within the system do not necessarily translate to the reality outside the system. That was my point all along.You need to first prove to us that there's a reality outside the system. You've lost me... what do you mean?Yeah, if you limit it within the context of a mind only. Not trying to make it look as though I'm talking about the Creator's nature in the broader sense of the word. My position is that there is a mind. That mind can also be a creator without assuming the nature of anyone. We cannot talk about nature until we agree that there's a mind. Before the house was created, there was no "inside" or "outside".. there was just the environment. The creation of the house and living in it doesn't negate the fact that the builders of the house were in the area that would now be considered "outside" before the house was created.Your analogy of a house does not do justice to the point you raised. I have provided better examples to prove that a creator can actually be within what he created. You obviously ignored those and decided on a soft point. I don't need to prove that the Creator was within the universe He created because I never said so. This is what I said, "The Creator must not necessarily be outside the universe to create it." He could be within or without because we have evidence within our own world that a Creator could be within or without his creation. Remember, you believe the creator is a super-mind capable of creating purpose. I'm curious to see how you define what a mind is, and how exactly the said mind would be clearly identified as existing within the system and not outside it.I don't think we should be defining a mind since we all have one. Whatever you think a mind is, it is the only known source of purpose. We all know what a mind is. We don't need to know how the said mind would be clearly identified. We're not here to discuss that. We're here to establish that the results we see in our universe are a product of a mind. |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by FxMasterz: 3:16pm On Sep 11 |
jaephoenix: I actually proved the person lied. |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by FxMasterz: 3:38pm On Sep 11 |
Wilgrea7:No worries my friend. We all have busy schedules. I disagree with you. I think the purpose of nairaland was simply to make the creator money.You should complete it. The purpose of Nairaland is to make the creator money through socialization which attracts ad revenues. But still, Nairaland has a purpose anyway. And that is just the point. I change my mind. I think the purpose of nairaland was to have a platform where you could create as many threads as possible. Now do you get my point?Whatever the purpose is. Nairaland has a purpose and therefore emanated from a mind. You cannot consider all the complex codes and the intricate libraries that work harmoniously on Nairaland to fulfil that purpose, and then conclude that Nairaland has no creator. The mind is the source of everything you see on Nairaland. In what sense? How exactly?In any sense and any how. Purpose is not the reason for the existence of things. So a short recap so we don't go around in circles.Should that concern me? I'm only concerned that it is fulfilling a purpose because it was made to do so by the one who designed it so. If it is not fulfilling a purpose, it would be very easy for you to argue that it has no creator. Isn't it? The argument against a creator is hard simply because you yourself know that only a mind can create things that fulfil specific purposes as could be observed in our universe. Basically.. do you think your observation (as NOT the creator) of a thing could be wrong? You'll need to point me to something purposeful in our world that has no creator. Afterwards, I'll answer your question. |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by jaephoenix(m): 5:10pm On Sep 11 |
FxMasterz:Yep. So correct yourself then. Your previous statement was wrong |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by jaephoenix(m): 5:10pm On Sep 11 |
FxMasterz:Lol. You didn't even bother to counter mine |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by jaephoenix(m): 5:11pm On Sep 11 |
FxMasterz:That was my first post on this thread. What thread are you talking about? |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by jaephoenix(m): 5:16pm On Sep 11 |
FxMasterz:In the post I replied, you virtually insulted me. Look at the screenshots. You throw insults around and when same insult gets thrown back at you, uh pretend to be a saint
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Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by jaephoenix(m): 5:23pm On Sep 11 |
FxMasterz:Where is the proof |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by FxMasterz: 5:40pm On Sep 11 |
jaephoenix: I think you should go back to where I put screenshots and links. |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by FxMasterz: 5:41pm On Sep 11 |
jaephoenix: Even from the post, it is clear that it was a response I gave to your insult. |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by FxMasterz: 5:43pm On Sep 11 |
jaephoenix: And you had a first aggression that started from previous threads. Can't you see my discussions with others! Do you see me insulting people for no reason? Even today again you have insulted me again. What's wrong with you? Among all atheists here, you're the vilest. |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by FxMasterz: 5:45pm On Sep 11 |
jaephoenix: My previous statement is based on the confessions of AIs themselves. They claim they're no sentient beings and therefore cannot believe or disbelieve. That doesn't mean they cannot argue according to the knowledge fed into them. |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by FxMasterz: 5:47pm On Sep 11 |
jaephoenix: Which yours? I didn't see it. Refer me to it. I've been offline. Just returned online today to answer numerous mentions. |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by jaephoenix(m): 6:18pm On Sep 11 |
FxMasterz:The screenshots actually showed I responded to your post. Youre further showing how clueless u r |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by jaephoenix(m): 6:19pm On Sep 11 |
FxMasterz:And my insult was a reply of your insults… |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by jaephoenix(m): 6:20pm On Sep 11 |
FxMasterz:Nope. Im not. Cant you see my chat with others? How many are vile? If you insult me, I reply you. End of |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by jaephoenix(m): 6:21pm On Sep 11 |
FxMasterz:Yeah, so correct yourself |
Re: This Completely Destroys Atheism and Renders Atheists Speechless by jaephoenix(m): 6:21pm On Sep 11 |
FxMasterz:Please refer to my very first post |
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