Maeve7:


First of all, some women get pregnant despite birth control.

That's why I used the word, higher chance. The probability of getting pregnant despite birth controls is very low which still brings me to my point of the orphanage and child support coming in only in the few cases.

Secondly, a lot of women don’t want to carry a pregnancy and give birth. Not only because they are not ready for a baby but because they don’t want to be pregnant in the first place. A pregnancy is not a walk in the park.

This is where birth control comes in. If you don't want to get pregnant then be celibate or use birth controls. And in the very few cases where birth control fails, then the government have to ensure that the baby should be born in which he or she would be enrolled into the orphanage system, after which the woman if she chooses not to be a part of the child's life can go on with her life.

Rather than focus on feelings, we should be focusing on the right of a human life to live.

And for many women having an abortion is better than having a child grow up in an orphanage. Maybe in your fictional book orphanages are like Disneyland but the reality is very different.

If birth controls are used in the first place, unwanted pregnancy drops significantly. It's only in few cases where pregnancy comes in. So yes, in reality, the proliferation of orphans as you are imagining it to be the case won't be the case.


#Xavier

Maeve7:


Au contraire, I have been reading your answers to me very carefully. I like your humanitarian approach and I share some of your views but your problem is that you are naturally smart and thus have become intellectually lazy. To my disappointment, I was right. I was hoping you would surprise me.

Here is why:
I have mentioned trisomy 13, 18 and 21 on purpose to see how you will react and what your line of argument would be. I anticipated that you would continue to argue passionately to make your point which would make you blind to a lesson or two you could learn and eventually make you sound incoherent.

You have decided to lump all three forms of trisomy together under the umbrella of 'severe deformity‘'. Whatever that means, these three genetic anomalies are very different from each other and I would have loved to see what you would do about them individually. So much for intellectual laziness.

Whatever you mean by 'severe deformity' remains a mystery but it is safe to assume that you see a human/fetus without deformity as inherently better and of more value than one with deformity/disability. And that makes you incoherent and proves LordReed‘s point.

I really can't see how someone cannot see how subjective he's being when he's the one subjectively deciding which fetus should live or die. SMH.

budaatum:


I really can not understand how you can not see that not lying is not a value that is intrinsic to a multiple times liar, but then, 'maths is racist' is intrinsic to you, so I'm not in the least surprised.

Murder is intrinsic to a murderer, Bem, and that's the only reason we call that person a murderer, instead of, say, a lover.

Confusion between actions and moral values. a liar or murderer is someone who has committed those acts, but that does not mean the act itself is an intrinsic or inherent part of the person’s moral makeup.

Lying is an action that someone can repeatedly perform, but it doesn't necessarily reflect the values they hold. A person could lie often while still believing that honesty is an important value. this is exactly why you are talking about this. Otherwise, why don't you just believe his or her own subjective truth or moral values instead of crying because they are eating the dogs and they are eating the cats?

Maeve7:


Suffering is a part of life. Everyone suffers at some point. What gives you the right to decide who can suffer how much and who is worthy or unworthy of living?

Exactly, you are right on this one 🤔. Thanks for this. After thinking about this, I had modify the view. And this include my initial responses to you regarding the issue.

So here it is, if the deformity of the fetus is one that will affect the life span of the child, then the fetus can be aborted, since it all ends in the death of the child... except the parents says they still want to birth him or her.

But if the fetus is one that won't affect the life span of the child, then yes, that child should be born. With the system in place, healthcare would be provided for the child of the parents can't afford it.

Never forget, temporal pro-choice should be allowed until the system is effectively in place.



#Xavier

.

Xavier5:


That's why I used the word, higher chance. The probability of getting pregnant despite birth controls is very low which still brings me to my point of the orphanage and child support coming in only in the few cases.



This is where birth control comes in. If you don't want to get pregnant then be celibate or use birth controls. And in the very few cases where birth control fails, then the government have to ensure that the baby should be born in which he or she would be enrolled into the orphanage system, after which the woman if she chooses not to be a part of the child's life can go on with her life.

Rather than focus on feelings, we should be focusing on the right of a human life to live.



If birth controls are used in the first place, unwanted pregnancy drops significantly. It's only in few cases where pregnancy comes in. So yes, in reality, the proliferation of orphans as you are imagining it to be the case won't be the case.


#Xavier

You want a child to be given away at birth into a system that can never replace a loving family and you want to force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term and push out a baby, which is painful both physically and emotionally and then you claim that you don’t want children with disabilities to be born to suffer but it’s ok if a woman who was forced to give birth suffers and also an orphan who has to live with the knowledge that they were unwanted for the rest of their lives. I see.

Thank you for the exchange. I really enjoyed it. Haven’t had such a good discussion in a long time.

budaatum:


If, except he did create a story that was a blatant lie!

he did not create the story. before he becomes Trump's running mate, the residents of Ohio have been reporting those things. so you are lying he created the story

Xavier5:


Exactly, you are right on this one 🤔. Thanks for this. After thinking about this, I had modify the view. And this include my initial responses to you regarding the issue.

So here it is, if the deformity of the fetus is one that will affect the life span of the child, then the fetus can be aborted, since it all ends in the death of the child... except the parents says they still want to birth him or her.

But if the fetus is one that won't affect the life span of the child, then yes, that child should be born. With the system in place, healthcare would be provided for the child of the parents can't afford it.

Never forget, temporal pro-choice should be allowed until the system is effectively in place.



#Xavier

It all ends in death for all of us.

bemeruca:
Lying is an action that someone can repeatedly perform, but it doesn't necessarily reflect the values they hold.

You wouldn't repeatedly lie if lying was not an essential part of your values, and lying about it would not make anyone but a fool think it is not intrinsically reflected in you to lie.

LordReed:


I really can't see how someone cannot see how subjective he's being when he's the one subjectively deciding which fetus should live or die. SMH.

When talking to Nigerians, 99 out of 100 times, at least, they only care for healthy children to be born.
The inherent value and also, in other cases, religious norms are thrown under the bus once you mention disabilities.


But in his defense, I think that what he meant to say was that the protection of human life should be a universal value but chose the wrong words to make his point.

bemeruca:


Confusion between actions and moral values. a liar or murderer is someone who has committed those acts, but that does not mean the act itself is an intrinsic or inherent part of the person’s moral makeup.

Lying is an action that someone can repeatedly perform, but it doesn't necessarily reflect the values they hold. A person could lie often while still believing that honesty is an important value. this is exactly why you are talking about this. Otherwise, why don't you just believe his or her own subjective truth or moral values instead of crying because they are eating the dogs and they are eating the cats?

It sounds like you think morality is a substance divorced from your actions.

Maeve7:


There are organizations concerned with children‘s welfare and foster parents caring for kids whose parents can’t and yet … nobody wishes to be from a broken home or given away at birth.

Such is life, nobody wishes to be from a broken home or be given at birth, but shit happens. But that doesn't and shouldn't deny the fetus... a human life the right to live.

We already know if we really care to know, do you?

As I said, only one way to find out, and that is the government and society making the effort to ensure that. But as I said, the responsibility lies on us. If we contribute our own quotas, I see no reason why it wouldn't be a reality. It all depends on us. I personally, won't wait on the government or other people, I will make my own efforts and see it true. With time, I believe, the government and the society will join in.

But until such becomes an effective system in place, temporal pro-choice should be allowed.

Are we talking about a utopian place or the US or Nigeria?

No, I'm talking about when the system is effectively in place.

Good luck with this system. My humble opinion, look at how well it’s working now and then what needs to be done to improve it and hopefully the government will provide you with tax payers money to give the unwanted child a beautiful life.

👍👍👍👍👍


#Xavier

bemeruca:


he did not create the story. before he becomes Trump's running mate, the residents of Ohio have been reporting those things. so you are lying he created the story

He does not need to have created it. He knew it was a lie and he repeated it, and that makes him a liar!

It's the same way basilico did not create the lie that dump won the last election dump lost. Repeating the lie makes basilico a liar.

LordReed:


It sounds like you think morality is a substance divorced from your actions.

He will murder people but he is not a murderer.

Maeve7:


When talking to Nigerians, 99 out of 100 times, at least, they only care for healthy children to be born.
The inherent value and also, in other cases, religious norms are thrown under the bus once you mention disabilities.


But in his defense, I think that what he meant to say was that the protection of human life should be a universal value but chose the wrong words to make his point.

The use of the word inherent is what does it in for me. It calls to mind something inviolate, at least in the way they seem to be using it but then they go right ahead to ignore this inherent thing when they deem it convenient and still want to say they are not being subjective. To me that's the incoherence you pointed out previously.

bemeruca:
Confusion between actions and moral values.

I know a man who will disagree with you.

For most sane people, it it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it just may be a duck.

budaatum:


He will murder people but he is not a murderer.

I want a red bag but I don't want the bag to be red. SMH.

budaatum:


You wouldn't repeatedly lie if lying was not an essential part of your values, and lying about it would not make anyone but a fool think it is not intrinsically reflected in you to lie.

it is not my fault you confuse actions with moral values.
some women know prostitution is wrong and hates it yet they do it just so they can eat. your issue is that you believe behavior directly reflects values this is a nonsense oversimplification. Again, people often act in ways that contradict their stated values for various reasons as I mentioned earlier. furthermore, fear, pressure, personal weakness, may lead someone to tell a lie.

Maeve7:


You want a child to be given away at birth into a system that can never replace a loving family

This is like saying child orphans should be killed since the orphanage won't be the loving home that they were born into.

As I earlier said, tragedy happens in life, but such tragedy should not stand in the way of a human life to live.

...and you want to force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term and push out a baby, which is painful both physically and emotionally and then you claim that you don’t want children with disabilities to be born to suffer but it’s ok if a woman who was forced to give birth suffers and also an orphan who has to live with the knowledge that they were unwanted for the rest of their lives. I see.

This is where I gave my response to this after modifying my view after some moment of thinking through it. I don't know if you saw it or not, but here it is below...

Exactly, you are right on this one 🤔. Thanks for this. After thinking about this, I had modify the view. And this include my initial responses to you regarding the issue.

So here it is, if the deformity of the fetus is one that will affect the life span of the child, then the fetus can be aborted, since it all ends in the death of the child... except the parents says they still want to birth him or her.

But if the deformity is one that won't affect the life span of the child, then yes, that child should be born. With the system in place, healthcare would be provided for the child if the parents can't afford it.

Never forget, temporal pro-choice should be allowed until the system is effectively in place.

Thank you for the exchange. I really enjoyed it. Haven’t had such a good discussion in a long time.

Same here 😎



#Xavier

LordReed:


It sounds like you think morality is a substance divorced from your actions.

It sounds like? that is what you understand. i cannot help you with that with that. all I can say is, with your view of morality, One can kill a person because that is his truth and you cannot fault him for his truth.

bemeruca:


it is not my fault you confuse actions with moral values.
some women know prostitution is wrong and hates it yet they do it just so they can eat. your issue is that you believe behavior directly reflects values ....

Your behaviour reflects your moral values!

If you value honesty you wouldn't lie so much to the point where we say lying is intrinsic in you!

If you value money, you wouldn't wipe your ass with a hundred dollar note!

bemeruca:


It sounds like? that is what you understand. i cannot help you with that with that. all I can say is, with your view of morality, One can kill a person because that is his truth and you cannot fault him for his truth.

Bem, this is the nonsense you've been saying here all along! And you are now claiming its what someone else is saying?

Lying is definitely a value that is intrinsic in you!

budaatum:


I know a man who will disagree with you.

For most sane people, it it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it just may be a duck.

this verse proves my point.

A good tree and a bad tree. who is to decide what is good? A person who does a bad thing and says what he did is good?

bemeruca:


It sounds like? that is what you understand. i cannot help you with that with that. all I can say is, with your view of morality, One can kill a person because that is his truth and you cannot fault him for his truth.

You should read screenshot below and take note of the underlined words.

budaatum:


Bem, this is the nonsense you've been saying here all along! And you are now claiming its what someone else is saying?

Lying is definitely a value that is intrinsic in you!

we are talking about the morality of our actions. I am not talking about whether lying is part of our nature or not. again, you are not understanding anything.

wirinet:

If birth control fails nko? Birth control is not 100% effective.
If the woman was used and dumped, sexuality exploited or abused nko?

Follow my write-ups. All these issues you're raising have been addressed. I kept on stressing on the effective establishment of a system which I personally call the Abortion Mitigating System (AMS). With such system in place the child can be taken care of via the orphanage or child support system.

I also make it clear that until such system is effectively established, temporal pro-choice should be allowed.

If the girl is too young and at the risk of VVF nko?

This fall under the critical cases I stated as a justifiable reason for abortion. The female's life is at risk here, hence her life should be considered... except she says otherwise. It still boils down to life.

Even married couples who don't want any more children often opt for abortion.

Then they use birth controls... there are options for irreversible methods.

There are a 101 reasons why sexually active woman might accidentally get pregnant and not prepared to birth and care for a baby.
How do you think the Chinese strictly enforce the one child policy for over 30 years?

What are the 101 reasons? Let's start from there.



#Xavier

bemeruca:


this verse proves my point.

A good tree and a bad tree. who is to decide what is good? A person who does a bad thing and says what he did is good?

"Ye shall know them", bem, and not "they shall know themself and tell blind stupid you what they are"!

Fuqing hell! Did you pay so little schoolfees that they didn't bother educating you at all or what!?

budaatum:


The rights of a born child do very easily trump those of its drug parent addict, and that's why we will take the child from the addicted parent to protect the child.

Now, if you want to protect the rights of an unborn foetus, I have no objection whatsoever and you are very welcome. Just take it out of me and do whatever you want with it, but don't you dare impinge on my rights and expect me to go along with you!

If the fetus is a human life, then yes, the right to live is binding on him or her.

So my question to you is, is a fetus a human life? What makes an organism a human life? Does the fetus meet this requirement?

Let's start from there



#Xavier

LordReed:


You should read screenshot below and take note of the underlined words.

SMH

bemeruca:
we are talking about the morality of our actions.

Would you like to argue that the action of lying is now morally right and proper or what?

Go ahead please. Knock me out.

IjeBos:


Because you and Bemeruca make a concerted effort to post lies. Posting false information is violation of the forum rules. And doing so during a disaster I think is nasty work.
So I am fully comfortable reporting him. Actually, I think it is my patriotic duty.

Based on all the info he has volunteered here and trying to hack people's info, I didn't think Bemeruca's identity was secret. I just assumed people were being thoughtful in not Doxxing him.

You are Harvard material but everyone else here thinks little of you.

Xavier5:


If the fetus is a human life, then yes, the right to live is binding on him or her.

So my question to you is, is a fetus a human life? What makes an organism a human life? Does the fetus meet this requirement?

Let's start from there



#Xavier

A foetus right to live is determined by the carrier of the inborn. If she doesn't want the child to be born at any time of the pregnancy,then she gets an abortion.
If the govt can fund every abortion the better,. If the govt can force doctors to mail abortion pills without physical examination the better.

That's the gospel according to budaatum