Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents - Religion (10) - Nairaland
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| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Candour(m): 3:14pm On Aug 02, 2014 |
Image123: @the bolded.At long last, he heeds an advice. Who said the thread has nothing good to offer? My friend finally learns something useful. Thank God for mercies. You were a diversion on the thread and my involvement was to get you focused. Finally you get the message and understand. Time for me to step back to the sidelines and continue learning. Abeg go ahead and contribute something worthwhile to the thread instead of the childish journey you embarked on since inception for which unfortunately, you were not paid 3 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Image123(m): 5:04pm On Aug 02, 2014 |
It was Goshen360 that said "half truth is as good as speaking lies." i think i'm going to have to agree with him. When Gnoni posted on F8, i raised the flag on contorted lies and well crafted lies being on display. i sounded that as a general warning to the unsuspecting. But what followed was a plea/force for me to show the dangers/lies. Well, here we are. Of course some of what Gnoni posted are true, that's what makes it 'half truth' like Goshen said. Some truth and some lies, which i'm told is as good as speaking lies. Without further delay, i go to pointing out the lies i can see at first glance, and perhaps answer some questions YET AGAIN(which i've not being interested in answering recently because the same suspects keep asking the same things, ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1. LIE NUMBER ONE BabaGnoni: One has to be omniscient to say the above as a matter of fact or without a shadow of doubt. We need to say the truth accurately. 2+2=4, it is not 4.1 or 4.003, neither is it 22 or -4. IF we say IT IS NOT RECORDED in the Bible that Abram and Jacob tithed any more after these first and second tithe incidents in the bible, very fine, accurate and correct. But to deceive us and say "Both Abram and Jacob did not tithe any more", that is a lie, it is unconfirmed. For instance, Abraham was recorded as offering a burnt offering just ONCE in the Bible i.e the time of Jehovah Jireh incident. It would be foolhardy of anyone to state that Abraham only offered burnt offering once in his life because it is only recorded once. Or to say that Paul did not have his bath since scripture does not record that he did. That is the line of reasoning and assumption employed here. Do i expect these same suspects to ignore the above and still go and repeat this lie another time? i hope not. - Abram and Jacob's tithes were both voluntary tithes unlike the Israelites' tithe commanded by God which was obligatoryHere is Gnoni making a case for the possibility of voluntary tithes and he was applauded. Anytime a tithe giver makes such case, the same suspects come up with complaints asking how it is possible for tithes to be voluntary or simply refuse to see what we have said tying all tithe teaching and practice to compulsion. Hypocrites. 2. LIE NUMBER TWO - God's original plan was that the firstborn son of each household of the Israelites will inherit the priest's officeThere was no further replacement after the firstborns. There was no original plan with the Levites REPLACED. Num 3:9 And thou shalt give the Levites unto Aaron and to his sons: they are wholly given unto him out of the children of Israel. Aaron and his sons(the Aaronic priesthood) got in the same time with the levites. In fact, the Bible refers to them as the LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD. What is tithing (i.e. or a tithe)This is great and truth. Check out how lie 3 follows it closely. 3. LIE NUMBER THREE - Tithing and biblical tithing are not synonymous (i.e. they are not necessarily the same)There is no such term as 'biblical tithing' or 'monetary tithing'. The Bible makes no such demarcations or segregations. This beautiful nonsense is a product of vain imaginations and theologists who hope to confuse the unsuspecting. From Genesis to the end of the Bible, tithe is tithe, simply a tenth, 1/10 of anything or something. Hebrews, Matthew and Luke simply speak of tithes as tithes or a tenth. They don't talk about some biblical tithe or what not. |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Image123(m): 5:04pm On Aug 02, 2014 |
4. LIE NUMBER FOUR BabaGnoni:The term 'biblical tithing'is beautiful nonsense. Tithe is simply 1/10. The Bible says nothing about some biblical tithing. Please note how the definition given disqualifies Abraham's tithe as biblical. Imagine that, Abraham's tithe is not biblical tithe. These fellows are going to guilt trip you and say that what you give is not biblical tithe and therefore not acceptable 5. LIE NUMBER FIVE Who tithed?Notice how the BIBLICAL tithe facade is conveniently lifted. The casual reader is fed the understanding of WHO TITHED(as in general), not who tithed the so called BIBLICAL TITHE. Num 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up a heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe. ALL PRIESTS were levites, and the levites were to offer a tenth to God, giving it to the HIGH priest. If a teacher says every student should pay 200naira to the course rep or class captain, that does not automatically absolve the course rep of his own duty, does it? - Did Israelites carpenters tithe? No, carpenters would not tithe For once, i thought they would finally produce the Bible passage that said this. Unfortunately, they pulled it out of thin air or their imagination. Everybody knows that the Bible times were an agrarian society. Their main source of income was agric based dominated. One could easily be butchers, bakers, stone and brick masons, artificers of brass, lawyers, judges, soldiers, tentmakers, sellers of expensive cloths, etc and still tithe. We all know that scribes and pharisees tithed, Jesus Himself said so. The scribes are the intelligent, literate and educated class of society. Same thing with the high and ruling class pharisees. These people still tithed. So what excuse has the lower class. Potiphar for instance shows how a soldier can still have fields. Gen 39:1 And Joseph was brought down to Egypt; and Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh, captain of the guard, an Egyptian, bought him of the hands of the Ishmaelites, which had brought him down thither. Gen 39:4 And Joseph found grace in his sight, and he served him: and he made him overseer over his house, and all that he had he put into his hand. Gen 39:5 And it came to pass from the time that he had made him overseer in his house, and over all that he had, that the LORD blessed the Egyptian's house for Joseph's sake; and the blessing of the LORD was upon all that he had in the house, and in the field. Potiphar had field even as an officer. The economy was agrarian even in Egypt. Famine crashed their economies faster than anything. Meat was what life was basically about for the average person. It is not rocket science, even in rural areas today, it can be observed. There are medical personnel, teachers, government workers etc that still do farming work. In those days, it was more pronounced, life was all about meat for them. Scriptures had to warn them that life was not to be all about meat(Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? ), in a similar sense today we are warned that life is not all about 'money'. That was their wealth, their blessing, their life, their treasure. Treasure is not just silver and diamonds. The rich fool(Luke12)'s treasure was his barns. Today, the average man's treasure and wealth has evidently changed. Its all about the 'money' as it were. Luk 12:21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God. There remains absolutely nothing wrong in paying tithes of what an individual or society is rich in. Both tithes and offerings, agric produce and non agric produce were found in the storehouse. It was never rejected. There is no God's unholy tithes anywhere. ALL the tithes are holy, from Genesis 1 till date. It is the temple/altar that sanctifies the gift, it is not antitithers that sanctify the gift or money. It is God. - Abram or Jacob (i.e. Israel) too did not perform a biblical tithe,There you have it. Abraham and Jacob's tithe was not biblical!! Does that even make any sense? 6. LIE NUMBER SIX Is tithed given or paid? This is word jangling that the Bible advices us to avoid. The same action of tithing was referred to as both paid and give in the Bible. This has being explained to many here before. 1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Abraham's tithe which is said to be once is referred to as PAID and GIVEN. Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all. Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, paid tithes in Abraham. The tithes given at the temple is referred to as PAID or GIVEN. Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 7. LIE NUMBER SEVEN Does Malachi 3 apply to believers?Tithing is not an ordinance written against you, it is for your own good. 1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; If i also pick this one scripture as you have done above out of context, then there is confusion and contradiction. The Bible teaches otherwise. The Bible teaches that ALL SCRIPTURE is divinely inspired and profitable, and that WHATSOEVER things were written aforetime have something to teach us, they are SURELY, NO DOUBT, written for our sakes. 1Co 9:10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope. Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 8. LIE NUMBER EIGHT Whom was tithed to? Yet another half truth. There was no levite when Abraham and Jacob gave tithe or said to tithe. Tithe does not have to be given to levites only. By the way, we are not under the levitical priesthood but under Jesus, who is a priest after the order of Melchisedek. Melchisedek received tithes. Abraham paid valid tithes before anything called Israel, and Melchisedek received tithes asides the Levites, the widows, the fatherless and the strangers. There is no scripture yet written that says that one has to live in the land of Israel to tithe, it is simply a figment of theologists' imaginations. There is a royal priesthood after the order of Melchisedec in place today BTW. Nothing stops them from receiving the tithe if Melchisedec did. Num 18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation. The tithe was not just given randomly or by lotto. It was for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation. The question now is, IS THERE STILL SERVICE IN THE HOUSE OF GOD OR CHURCH TODAY? Because that is the PURPOSE for the tithe, that there may be meat in God's house. That purpose still exists and can be met using the same principle. That is as common sense as it gets. Tithes and offerings can be used to provide for the service of God's house, the church. 1Co 9:13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 1Co 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. 1Co 9:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? 9. LIE NUMBER NINE Where was tithe given and where was it stored? Of course, the gullible is expected to assume that tithe definition ends in the warped biblical tithe definition earlier given by Gnoni. Tithes was given at the temple at Jerusalem but mostly at storehouses in designated Levitical cities, it is that simple and basic. All the twists added are unnecessary. Neh 13:12 Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries. Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. i'd point out other lies later on, kindly ruminate on this. Let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath. |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by BabaGnoni: 5:21pm On Aug 02, 2014 |
Image123: [size=5pt] ^^^  @Image123 1. THE TRUTH ABOUT ""SUPPOSEDLY LIE NUMBER ONE" - Some many things not recorded in the bible are true and the fact remains that Abram and Jacob made a tithe not commanded by God, a tithe that has no penalty if defaulted This tithe was done once and no more - If teacher only taught 2+2= 4 in class, it doesnt mean that even without been taught, that 1+3 != 4 or 3+1 != 4 or 4+0 != 4 != means "not equal to" - Abraham only offered Isaac once, and the Jehovah Jireh there signifies that God provided (i.e. jireh) a ram for that occasion - The voluntary tithes Abraham and Jacob gave had no sorrow added. unlike the devourer promised WoF tithe givers if their voluntary tithe is held back or defaulted - The insinuated "Hypocrites" is water on duck's back 2. THE TRUTH ABOUT ""SUPPOSEDLY LIE NUMBER TWO" - God's original plan was to make the firstborn son of each Israelites household priests (Refer to Exodus 13:2, Exodus 19:5-6 for details) similar to how all believers are now priests (Refer to 1 Peter 2:9 NLT for details) The Israelites crazy wild night party and the Golden Calf idol worship changed all that The Levi on Moses's command ruthlessly dealth with the Israelites - Since the Israelites had lost out of serving God as priests, the "The LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD" comprising of the descendants of Levi was instituted "The LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD" was based on 3 levels of service based on the Levi family tree (Refer to Numbers 3:6-10 for details) - The first level of service formed the priesthood, was composed of Aaron and his offspring (Refer to Numbers 3:10 for details) - Aaron and his sons were descendants of Levi's son, Kohath (i.e. Aaron's his first sons, Nadab and Abihu were consumed by fire, the other two were Eleazar and Ithamar) - The second level is formed for those to be in charge of the most sacred parts of the Tabernacle They are the remaining descendants of Kohath who were not descendants of Aaron (Refer to: Numbers 3:27-32, 4:4-15, 7:9 for details) - The third level is formed for the lesser duties of service it comprised of all of the descendants of Gershon and Merari (Refer to: Numbers 3:18,20-26,33-37 for details) 3. THE TRUTH ABOUT "SUPPOSEDLY LIE NUMBER THREE" - Distinction has to be made between the tithe commanded by God and the tithe presently practiced today hence 'biblical tithing' given to the tithe commanded by God and 'monetary tithing' given to the tithe presently practiced today - 'biblical tithing' was a tenth of agro-based produce as God commanded - 'monetary tithing' is a tenth of one's financial income as presently practiced today (i.e. it is solely money based) It is also not commanded by God - Hebrews, Matthew and Luke simply spoke of tithes, as tithes or a tenth and particularly in regards to agro-based produce and not hard currencies or money 4. THE TRUTH ABOUT "SUPPOSEDLY LIE NUMBER FOUR" - The term 'biblical tithing' is not beautiful nonsense It is used to highlight what God instituted or commanded tithes according to Leviticus 27:30, 32 NLT - Leviticus 27:30, 32 is evidence as it shows how and what God commanded tithes as to the Israelites to be given on - It is used to distinguish it from Abraham tithes - Abram's tithe was based on war spoils, God's instituted or commanded tithe was based on agro-based produce - It is tagged 'biblical tithing' because God commanded it unlike Abram's which wasn't - Of course Abram tithed to a priest, but it was not compelled, had no sorrow added to it and it was not biblically commanded hence why it wasnt called a biblical tithe - No where on the thread, was any suggestion made that the Abram type of tithe or voluntary tithe is not acceptable except that, the giving and receiving of such tithe was never commanded by God. 5. THE TRUTH ABOUT "SUPPOSEDLY LIE NUMBER FIVE" - "all priests were Levites but not all Levites were priests" means Aaron and his offspring (i.e. the priests) were Levites but not all Levites were Aaron and his offspring (i.e. they weren't priests) - Aaron and his offspring (i.e. the priests) DID NOT PAY TITHES and the "not all Levites were Aaron and his offspring" (i.e. not priests) RECEIVED TITHES FROM THE ISRAELITES AND PAID TITHE OF THAT TITHE TO Aaron and his offspring (i.e. the priests) - The two; a God commanded tithing directive and a national emergency taxation directive are separate and mutually exclusive events 6. THE TRUTH ABOUT "SUPPOSEDLY LIE NUMBER SIX" - "Is tithed given or paid?" was used to highlight the difference between giving tithe, as with transferring the possession of agro-based produce to the Levites and paying tithe, as with paying in money and nothing else to WoF - WoF doesn't want tithe given in any other form except that tithe be paid in money to them 7. THE TRUTH ABOUT "SUPPOSED LIE NUMBER SEVEN" - The difference between Malachi 3:7 and 1 Pe 2:13 is that Malachi 3:7 has a damaging repercussion that Colossians 2:14 has taken care off - Malachi 3:7 is lethal and spiritual, 1 Pe 2:13 is political and referring to state laws, public regulations etc etc 8. THE TRUTH ABOUT "SUPPOSED LIE NUMBER EIGHT" - Obviously, it is the biblical tithe commanded by God which is based on agro-based produce and not money, war spoils etc that is referred here - This tithe was commanded to be paid to the Levite - Other one tenth taxation, contribution or donation not expressively or directly asked by God is not referred to here 9. THE TRUTH ABOUT "SUPPOSED LIE NUMBER NINE" - The tithes given at the temple at Jerusalem normally were for the priests' uphold etc - The tithes mostly given at storehouses in designated Levitical cities were for the Levites uphold - 2 Chronicles 31 and Nehemiah 13 gives more and detailed information on what happened when the tithing practices, processes and procedure which were lost were found from reading Moses' law 3 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by PastorKun(m): 5:50pm On Aug 02, 2014 |
@Image Honestly I don't know how you do it but your ability to distort biblical truth and write tonnes of thrash is legendary. Trust you to come out guns blazing when the source of your filthy lucre (tithes) is questioned. 7 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by paxonel(m): 6:00pm On Aug 02, 2014 |
trustman: Faith in faith or Faith as a forceI want to state here categorically that christians in this present day are confused in general when it comes to the Bible, the way Bible was written is confusing us and we are paying for it dearly Jesus says if you have faith like a mustard seed you will tell this mountain be thou move.. that statement was hyperbolic ( exaggeration ). meaning, there is a true meaning behind that statement I think the meaning of mountain there is any circumstance beyond our control, we all know it but the problem about we christiians is,since we know that mountain means circumstances beyond our control eg a laim man who can't walk, when we have faith we can heal him,why are we still having faith to pray for things we can control such as car ,money, house? etc yet we don't work 2 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by ApostlePat: 6:22pm On Aug 02, 2014 |
Insight full thread. Being reading and studying along offline. 3 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Image123(m): 11:02pm On Aug 02, 2014 |
10. LIE NUMBER TEN BabaGnoni:This lie assumes that Abraham's tithe was not biblical. But we do see instances where tithe was given of more than just agric produce in the Bible. Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. (ASV) I fast twice in the week; I give tithes of all that I get. (BBE) Twice in the week I go without food; I give a tenth of all I have. (CEV) I go without eating for two days a week, and I give you one tenth of all I earn." (Darby) I fast twice in the week, I tithe everything I gain. (GNB) I fast two days a week, and I give you one tenth of all my income.' (ISV) I fast twice a week, and I give a tenth of my entire income.' The word "all" used in the original is 'pas' and it means ALL,EVERY, ANY, WHOLE. The word "possess" is 'ktaomai' and it means GET, ACQUIRE, POSSESS, OBTAIN. So basically, the tithe here is given of ALL and ANY and EVERY thing GOTTEN, or OBTAINED. Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all. Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee. Evidently, there was nothing strange about giving tithes of ALL. Nobody made it strictly or solely agric produce except selective readers of the Bible. 11. LIE NUMBER ELEVEN Why was tithing based on agricultural produce and not monetary income?These three major reasons are unfounded assumptions. As at post date, Gnoni conveniently and ironically forgot to give verses. Whatever currency tithe is given in, it is an ingrained fact and teaching that it is God that gives power to get wealth. There is nothing seemingly humbling in tithing corn and rice that is not obtainable in tithing dollars. Even winning physical fights, the Israelites were taught that it was God that did it for them. Deu 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he swore unto thy fathers, as it is this day. - Tithes were not for temple sacrifices. People brought offerings for temple sacrifices. Tithes was like salary for the levites, not expenditure for sacrifices. Num 18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, f[b]or their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation. [/b] - Tithe was agric produce because the levites have no inheritance? What does that mean? The levites had access to offerings too and they had land and animals you know. About MONETARY income bla bla. This is another high sounding phrase like 'biblical tithe'. It means nothing in the subject. Only added by theologists to confuse the undiscerning. The income of the Israelites could be anything from silver to food. Tithe has always been of INCOME. Abraham tithed from his INCOME after the war. The Israelites tithed from their income at the harvest. Believers today are to tithe of their INCOME too. Jesus said this in His parable. Luk 18:12 I fast two days a week, and I give you one tenth of all my income.' GoodNews. Tithe is given as a HEAVE offering, that is in acknowledgement and appreciation that God has provided our income for us. Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all. Num 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as a heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance. Abraham recognised the Source of his income, God which delivered. The Israelites also HEAVED or LIFTED UP their tithes in recognition and appreciation of Jehovah their Provider. It is the same Spirit of faith which the believer manifests in offering the tithe today. When folks say monetary income or monetary tithe, they want us all to assume that money ONLY means paper currency like naira and dollars. Money is simply a medium of exchange. It could be anything agreed on, though these days it is more readily paper currency. But in Bible days, anything agreed on was a medium of exchange(the definition of money). The word translated in most Bibles as 'money' is SILVER. The Hebrew word is 'keseph'and the greek is 'argurion'. The Bible uses money and silver interchangeably. The more common measure of wealth in Bible days was agric produce. Its like if you wanted to levy people today in Nigeria, you'd readily catch the audience when you talk in terms of naira than to talk about shillings and pounds or dollars and cents. Yes, dollars exist but rate of exchange here in Nigeria is more common and easier to the average fellow. In Bible days, the average fellows related well with harvest, oil, wheat, barns, animals etc They were an agrarian society, meaning that they cared more about agric produce than about silver or shekels. There measure of wealth was in cattle and camels and horses and bigger barns, unlike today when our wealth is averagely measured in paper currency. So, their tithing was set according to their strong point and effective economy. This is the reason why tithing was based on agricultural produce. 12. LIE NUMBER TWELVE Who was Malachi 3:8-10 referring to and/or talking about?i understand and i'm not happy that certain scriptural verses are abused and manipulated. But that is the case with so many teachings in scripture. The baby cannot be thrown away with the bathing water. Yes, some fellows threaten others with certain Bible verses and it should not be so. However, it is a lie to claim that Malachi is talking about or to Levites. The Book of Malachi is to ALL of Israel and it is very clear its easier to see that than miss it like Gnoni has done. Mal 1:1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. Neh 13:12 Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries. Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. Mal 3:11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts. Mal 3:12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightful land, saith the LORD of hosts. Evidently, Malachi addresses the whole nation as the blessings are not just for Levites or priests. The opening of the windows is not just for levites, neither is the rebuke of destroyers. ALL NATIONS were to call THEM blessed. He was clearly talking to the SONS of Jacob, not just to Levi the son of Jacob. This is an example of why one needs cumulative understanding of scriptures. Perhaps, Gnoni and friends have one scripture that they think says that only levites bring tithe to the storehouse, but they obviously did not consider the two passages above. i do not know their source for their teaching that's why i say perhaps they have one scripture. i strongly suspect this theory was pulled out of thin air, though i hope at least there is a scripture or more that talks about the story Gnoni gave about the levites. There are usually two sides to a coin as it were. Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Why have Gnoni and friends conveniently left out the whole passage so as to caress this theory of Malachi speaking to only Levites? Malachi is not originally divided into chapters and verses. The promise of John baptist, and of Jesus'coming and of rewards, is it to levites or to all? These are things they need to ponder on and stop deceiving themselves and unfortunately, others. Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spoke often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. Mal 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. Why does WoF ask for tithe?Note that i do not care what WoF or you think about tithes. What i know and care about is the Word of God and what it teaches on a subject, in this case "tithes". Teachings, doctrines and knowledge of Scriptures are to be taken CUMULATIVELY. That is, in its wholeness, totality, ALL Scriptures, EVERY Word. Doctrine is not to be formed from just one particular chapter or part of the Bible, but the bringing together of its teachings and references from the whole complete Bible. This is one sure way to maintain balance, proper context, right perspective and truth. What the Bible teaches about tithes is an accumulation, especially from all the passages that refer to it. It is this same thing that is used to understand prayer for example. There is an illustration made using Luke 11.2. (Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.) When ye pray, say, If a person takes just Luke 11.2 and rigidly stands on it without considering prayer in its full context from ALL Scripture, EVERY Word. Such a person is likely to have a skewed understanding of prayer. He will keep repeating the Lord's prayer anytime he prays, and would quote this verse to support. It is the same thing on any subject. Our antitithe friends do this incomplete and rigid understanding with the tithe. A rounded, complete, EVERY Word view about love, marriage, obedience, betrayal, and life would give proper understanding and context to such cases. One cannot build marriage teaching on just a passage or part(for instance Hosea), and neglect every other Scripture that give us the balanced view and context of what God expects. It is dangerous to be rigid and dogmatic on just some portions of Scripture, the balanced cumulative view is necessary, to rightly divide the Word of God. Tithes can be given of ALL. People can bring ALL the tithes. There is no sin in giving tithes OF ALL that God gives an individual. It is that 'simple'. 13. LIE NUMBER THIRTEEN What happened to the Temple, the storehouse(s), the Levites?We do know that where two, three or more are gathered, God is there. We do know that such assemblies are scripturally referred to as the house of God and the church. We do know that these gatherings have elders and that some early elders collected church contributions. It remains the same principle, whether it is the church in the wilderness, or the church in Jerusalem, or the ones here in Lagos. The samaritan woman had that much sense to believe Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshiped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. Bring in the tithes, that there may be meat IN THE HOUSE OF GOD. |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Image123(m): 11:03pm On Aug 02, 2014 |
14. LIE NUMBER FOURTEEN BabaGnoni:Gnoni here conveniently forgets to tell his unwary fans that there is something called voluntary tithes which anyone can practice. The average reader would only act on these decisive itchy words above, tithing is NO MORE. He will tell us tongue in cheek when cornered that there is still voluntary tithing BUT .... excuses of half truths do follow. If Isaiah 28:10 comes in handy for Gnoni who seems to detests the law, well Isaiah 8:20 should also come in handy. Rom 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. 1Jo 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 1Jo 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. The ought to life, these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. - We are in a time that tithing does not apply any more, no more, especially in this new order, way of doing things (i.e. Hebrews 9:10)These double mouthed fellows One is not allowed to tithe anymore period. Later on, some antitithe fellow will say that all they are saying and being saying all the while is that tithing should be voluntary. Yet the suspects were all here liking and commending these things that Gnoni said. i did not pick the rest of the stories as they were chiefly directed at WoF(whatever and whoever that is). They were mostly a rehash of what was said already anyways. Some basic questions about the tithe, and the normal christian would go onward. -Can one be a christian or saved and still tithe? YES, i'm saved and i tithe. - Can one be sanctified and live a holy life and still tithe? YES. -Is it a sin to tithe? NO. -Is 10% of my salary a tenth? YES. -Is a tenth of a thing a tithe? YES. These are golden and simple enough for anyone in Christ to comprehend, without theological theatrics. Indeed, he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity, whether tithes or anything he gives. 2Co 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward. 2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Image123(m): 2:38pm On Aug 03, 2014 |
BabaGnoni: See how Gnoni clearly contradicts himself, twisting and turning like Ronaldinho to the cheers of his gullible fans? In lie 14 which he told earlier, he had said "In fact, one is not even allowed to tithe, not any more, period." i hope he doesn't dribble further, this is not a game and God does not have short memory. |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by BabaGnoni: 2:58pm On Aug 03, 2014 |
Image123: ^^^ The fact and truth remains the same, no matter how much you try to weasel justifying paying a tenth of financial or monetary income and deny the technicality of tithing as commanded by God to the Israelites, (i.e. one is not even allowed to tithe the according to the command given to the Israelites by God any other tithe except for that is glorified 10% taxation masquerade as the defunct and obsolete tithe commanded by God to the Israelites) "How long will you gullible people love being so gullible? How long will you mockers find joy in your mocking? How long will you fools hate knowledge? - Proverbs 1:22 GOD'S WORD® Translation How long, foolish ones, will you love ignorance? How long will you mockers enjoy mocking and you fools hate knowledge? - Proverbs 1:22 Holman Christian Standard Bible fool, noun; a person who acts unwisely 2 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 3:35pm On Aug 03, 2014 |
^^^ Please can we continue the discuss where it left off? Enough of distractions. F9 continues... please. 2 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Candour(m): 3:43pm On Aug 03, 2014 |
DrummaBoy: ^^^ I agree with this idea. Image has been given the space to point out what he thinks are lies so I think the discussants should continue with their points so as not to derail the thread or stop the flow. Interested parties can engage image and his points after the presentations end. Thanks and God bless 3 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Image123(m): 7:18pm On Aug 03, 2014 |
Candour:duh, i immediately created a thread for that very purpose. Like i said, i don't want to spoil the party here or ruffle any peacock feathers. You guys were asking for it, now it's here. At least, we have drumb off my back, hehehe. Next |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Candour(m): 8:00pm On Aug 03, 2014 |
Image123: I saw the thread you created my friend. Wish you a great party there and much more. Happy this thread can now proceed in peace. Cheers man |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Image123(m): 8:40pm On Aug 03, 2014 |
Candour: Good for you. |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Candour(m): 8:58pm On Aug 03, 2014 |
Image123: Sure |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by ichuka(m): 10:43pm On Aug 03, 2014 |
Beautiful Thread!! 2 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman: 11:29pm On Aug 03, 2014 |
ichuka: Beautiful Thread!! Thank you. More increments coming. 1 Like |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by BabaGnoni: 1:09pm On Aug 04, 2014 |
ichuka: Beautiful Thread!!  Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalms 19:14 2 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman: 7:51pm On Aug 04, 2014 |
[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F9: Name it.. Claim it... doctrine[/size] What it’s all about Name it & claim it is a major practice of the word of faith movement. In fact in many instances the movement is actually known or called by that name – Name it and Claim it theology. We have previously noted that the WoF redefined many issues creating in the process a gospel that focuses on human potential for creating its own reality. This current consideration is still intertwined with much of what we have noted earlier about the movement. The WoF adherents falsely claim that man’s spoken words will magically bring about whatever the speaker desires. Basically the idea is that if you say you’re going to be or have something, you’ll have. It is "You can have what you say" theology. The WoF slogans include “What you profess, you possess” and “Confession brings possession”. No matter how well-sounding those catchphrases are, you will not find them in the Bible. Word of Faith teachers allege that what you say determines everything that happens to you. The WoF movement may claim they ask God for what they desire, but it is ACTUALLY the pronouncements they make that they believe decides the outcome of things. So rather than trust God and leave things to him to decide what is needful and what to give to His children they allege that the ‘spoken word’ does the magic. Their logic for this is derived from their belief that man possesses the same intrinsic creative power as God. Therefore man can ‘speak’ things into being much the same way as God used spoken words to create as is recorded in the Bible. However, they fail to truly acknowledge that God completely transcends all creation, including man; therefore any comparison between God and man is only analogical and can never be on an equal basis. See again what some of the proponents say: Paul Yonggi (David) Cho: “By the spoken word we create our universe of circumstances...." (Solving Life's Problems, p. 51) Kenneth Copeland states: “By getting the Word deep into your spirit and speaking it boldly out your mouth, you release spiritual power to change things in the natural circumstances” (The Power of the Tongue, 15). “You have the same creative faith and ability on the inside of you that God used when he created the heavens and the earth” (Copeland, Inner Image of the Covenant, side 2.) Joyce Meyer states: “The Lord recently showed me that we can bless or curse the financial seed we sow. We can speak positively about our financial future, or we can say things like, ‘I can’t afford it’ . .. ‘Every time I turn around something happens to take my money’. . . . We should water our giving with the water of His word and expect an abundant harvest. Sow your seed and speak prosperity scriptures over your finances” (Joyce Meyer, “Your Mouth is a Weapon,” Life in the Word March 1997, p. 4.) If ‘the spoken word’ does the creation of our circumstances then there is really no need to pray. But is that really what the Bible teaches or is that a spiritual practice found in some other religion. Link with New Age Movement and others The WoF movement misinterprets and misrepresents portions of Scripture, as a result they come up with teachings and positions that resemble those of cults and the New Age Movement. Many researchers into the WoF movement have come up with this conclusion. These same concepts - controlling the ‘spiritual realm’ through visualization or words to bring about material results have been used by shamans, witch doctors and occultists for thousands of years. So we see how what is called in the occult by different names but is simply that thoughts, spoken words, or visualization properly done will “manifest' in the physical world is carried into the Word of Faith teaching of speaking and confessing. Motivational preaching which emphasizes the power of the mind and will over circumstances rather than looking to God has become more prevalent in WoF churches and others that have ‘imported’ their ideas. They may talk about ‘prayer’, ‘faith’ and other biblical issues but it is the daily rituals of ‘positive confessions’, etc which focus more on the spoken word that is the greater center of attention than anything else. These same concepts/teachings are what we find in the mind sciences and New Age Movement. Link between WoF Proponents and New Thought It is significant to note that the founder of the New Thought philosophy, Phineas Quimby, is the man E.W. Kenyon studied under and adopted his ideas. These same beliefs were later picked up and copied by Kenneth Hagin. Both Hagin and his devotee Kenneth Copeland made these teachings fashionable in the church. Their successive disciples have further spread this ‘gospel’ of name it, claim it. A look at Romans 4:17 – a scripture on which Name it, claim it hinges Let’s look at how WoF preachers take Scripture out of context to mean something that was never intended. Joyce Meyer: “Romans 4:17 says God gives life to the dead and speaks of the nonexistent things as if they already existed. He created the world with faith-filled words (see Genesis 1). We are created in His image, and we can also call things that are not as though they are. We can speak positive thoughts about ourselves into the atmosphere and thereby ‘prophesy our future” (Joyce Meyer, “Your Mouth is a Weapon,”(Life in the Word March 1997, p. 4) The WoF preachers, like we see above, quote part of Romans 4:17 for support of their assertion or twist the verse in its entirety. What is usually quoted is ““who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;” However, a good look at the portion shows that the person who does these things is – God. The portion is talking about God as the one who “calls those things which do not exist as though they did. But WoF devotees assign to themselves what has been attributed to God. Because they have deified man, and reduced God to the level of man, it is easy for WoF adherents to misapply scriptures like this one without ‘seeing’ their error. This portion of the Bible is a statement about God: It is neither a promise nor an instruction by God to believers. Final Words The name-it-and-claim-it theology has so much to do with occult and pagan practice and beliefs, including metaphysical and Mind sciences. Even though there is certainly some connection between our mental state and what we experience (e.g. the issue of psychosomatic illnesses, etc), and while a positive mental attitude definitely has its part to play in a person’s life, the Name it and claim it pack has gone way too far with this, turning it into some form of voodooism. The idea that we can just name-it-and-claim-it to create our own reality is not biblical Christianity. Christians need to be quite concerned about this. Christians are to be dependent on the one who alone is omnipotent – God, and not think that man is self-sufficient and can bring about things on his own. I REST MY CASE ON F9, FOR NOW. 4 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by nannymcphee(f): 9:08am On Aug 05, 2014 |
trustman: Pls are u of the opinion that the bible doesn't teach consequences to negative confessions & words? Kindly explain bearing these scriptures in mind proverbs 6:2 Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth. Proverbs15:4 A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit Proverbs18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof. Proverbs 18:7 A fool's mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul James3:4-5 Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth. Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. 1peter3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by nannymcphee(f): 9:41am On Aug 05, 2014 |
DrummaBoy: God looked down & made that statement, please where was it stated that it wasn't a good thing? Proverbs 23:7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee. from the Tower of Babel, it's evident that man can achieve what he has set out to do, that being said as Christians our trust shouldn't be on our abilities but on God abilities but it doesn't mean I should deny those abilities when I take drugs I look up to God to do the healing & not necessarily the drugs, meaning I don't put my trust on doctors but look up to God does that mean I should deny the potency of the drugs or the skill of the doctor |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by nannymcphee(f): 11:13am On Aug 05, 2014 |
BabaGnoni: John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. Pls can you explain ur post again in the light of the above scriptures?? 1corithians 12:8 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles.... So the man that has the above gifts cannot grow limbs or put back sliced ears ? |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by BabaGnoni: 11:20am On Aug 05, 2014 |
nannymcphee: Presuming you're quoting DrummaBoy from the below URL link: https://www.nairaland.com/1790500/word-faith-movements-doctrine-proponents#24350423 To start with the Tower of Babel is a euphemism for rebellion (i.e. open resistance, outright or bold disobedience, action or process of resisting authority, dissent, insubordination etc) Babel was in Shinar, Shinar was one of the kingdoms formed by Nimrod Nimrod was the son of Cush (i.e. Cush was the son of Ham and the grandson of Noah) Digression: Once you understand what actually went down in the Noah and Ham incident (i.e. nothing to do with homo contrary to popular belief) it is no surprise the "Tower of Babel" events in this Noah-Ham-Cush bloodline 8Cush was the father of Nimrod, who became a mighty warrior on the earth. 9He was a mighty hunter before the Lord; that is why it is said, “Like Nimrod, a mighty hunter before the Lord.” 10The first centers of his kingdom were Babylon, Uruk, Akkad and Kalneh, in Shinar. - Gen 10:8 - 10 Gen 11:1-9 The Tower of Babel 1And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 2And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. 4And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 5And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth. The tower the people proposed to build is an indirect expression substituted for trouble making, bad behavior etc The tower's "whose top may reach unto heaven" is a hyperbole not intended to be taken literally but used to used to evoke strong feelings or create a strong impression of the seriousness of this reasoning, behavior or thought Notice that the Tower of Babel itself was never built but only the city was The city came to be called Babel (i.e. was named Babel due to the confusion God set in) - Tower of Babel was a thought process In order to not labor this post that much, the bottom line is that "it wasn't a good thing" to have a tower of bad ideas, bad thoughts then and it still isn't a good thing to have bad behaviour thoughts now which incidentally is what Word Faith and Mind Sciences teaches The "Tower of Babel" syndrome is not uncommon today, and we need to be mindful that lofty ideas, thoughts, imaginations etc in different forms or guises are still peddled as gospel to the unsuspecting hence the thread's due diligence on WoF 4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds) 5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; - 2 Corinthians 10:4 - 5 KJ Bible 2 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by BabaGnoni: 11:26am On Aug 05, 2014 |
BabaGnoni: nannymcphee: Where are you? - Don't answer back, it was a rhetorical question These miracles in the medical arenas are already happening now. Ears and noses are being regrown etc etc - not reattached ear but new ear grown Little by little, we will have full or more manifestations of the likes It will come not from playing Jesus (i.e. not from claiming that, we are little gods, god class with a little ''g'' etc) not from the pulpit, pastors or prophets nannymcphee. 2014 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2571335/Ears-noses-grown-lab-stem-cells-human-transplants-thanks-revolutionary-technique.html 2006 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-487039/Artist-implants-ear-arm.html 1 Like |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by nannymcphee(f): 11:49am On Aug 05, 2014 |
DrummaBoy: John 14:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised pls can u explain ur quote in the light of the above scripture? If thru sin death & all other evil entered into the world & u say sin has been taken care of, don't u think the effects & results of sin will also be taken care of in the life of those that has embraced the cross or the sacrifice? |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by nannymcphee(f): 1:43pm On Aug 05, 2014 |
BabaGnoni: Pls I said explain in the light of the scriptures I quoted!!! Jesus said those that believe in him, the links u said did u see them attributing the breakthrough to Jesus The promise was made to believers, those scientist aren't Christians so pls explain again in the light of the scripture I quoted! You also left out the other scripture on the gifts of the Holy Spirit |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by BabaGnoni: 1:52pm On Aug 05, 2014 |
nannymcphee:^^^  SMH. Almost thou persuadest me you were a "Christian" |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 2:06pm On Aug 05, 2014 |
nannymcphee: In the thread by Tgirl4real on God speaking to people I answered two questions you directed at me. You have not indicated whether you understood those answers, if your question were answered at all or to even recognize the fact that I took some effort to answer those questions. Until I see you do this I would assume that the questions you ask are not meant to find light for your understanding but to cast a stumbling block on the discussion. Thus, like with Image123, I do not have the time for individual like that. Scripture records Pharisees and Sadducees asking Jesus questions to "catch him in his words". You will need to prove to me you have purer motives. 1 Like |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman: 2:08pm On Aug 05, 2014 |
BabaGnoni:Absolutely. Why something that the Bible clearly presents in bad light will now be used by many to justify their position beats the imagination. 1 Like |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Image123(m): 2:33pm On Aug 05, 2014 |
BabaGnoni: Are you saying she/he is not a christian? Because she/he is not all glory alleluia about your thread? |
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