Ukutsgp: catholic believe that Mary never had
anymore children after giving birth to
Jesus and that she remained a
perpetual virgin until she died. Why
are we to believe that Joseph and
Mary never had sexual intercourse?
What husband and wife live and die
together without consummating their
marriage? These are speculative
questions, but is is obvious Mary
could not have remained a virgin if
she had other children as recorded in
the Bible. (Matthew 13:55-56; Mark
6:3).

btoks: your premise of ."what husband and wife live and die without consummating..." doesn't hold at all because one could ask the same question about the virgin birth, miracles etc.this was no ordinary couple.
Using your logic, would you agree that Jesus was literally The carpenter's son? - matt13: 55

early church teaching on the brothers and sisters indicate that they were children of Joseph from an earlier marriage thus step siblings of Jesus.

btoks: your premise of ."what husband and wife live and die without consummating..." doesn't hold at all because one could ask the same question about the virgin birth, miracles etc.this was no ordinary couple.
Using your logic, would you agree that Jesus was literally The carpenter's son? - matt13: 55

early church teaching on the brothers and sisters indicate that they were children of Joseph from an earlier marriage thus step siblings of Jesus.

Ukutsgp: so what type of couple are are they?

pls forget ur early church tradition here. d bible said mary had other children. it is either u will believe d bible or forget it. so where did the bible tells u dat joseph had married before? una dey lie sha.

btoks: sola scriptura sentiments.There is a historical basis to whatever you read in the bible, you can't strip this away and think you've got the right interpretation 2000 years after the event. The bible doesn't even tell us what books are in the bible - so your .'where in the bible' question has no validity. Where does the bible say Mary had other children?

Re. the couple, it might have occurred to you that they were raising Jesus the 2nd person of the Trinity plus a little point about the virgin birth. I doubt any other couple can claim this.

btw you haven't answered whether Jesus was the carpenter's son as per your logic

OLAADEGBU: "My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour, for He has been mindful of the humble state of His servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me — holy is His name" (Luke 1:46-49).

This is the prayer Mary prayed. She said God my Saviour, meaning that she was a sinner saved by God. Do you see why we are not to worship her?

Ukutsgp: after d birth of Jesus they had sex and she was blessed with other children. why is dis difficult for u to comprehend?

OLAADEGBU:

This is one of the points where your church tradition goes against the Scriptures. Let me refer you to an excerpt from the OP:

btoks: Dude, it does not say this in the bible, this is your own interpretation. I notice you've ignored my points and questions but expect me to comprehend your assertions. Will look forward to your considered response otherwise I'm out, peace.

Ukutsgp: why is it difficult for u to understand the word 'until' from the op's first post. if u understand, u will nt ask me lame question.

Ubenedictus:

probably because the bible wasn't written in english but in greek.

And the greek word for untill doesn't mean d same thing as the english.

Ubenedictus:

probably because the bible wasn't written in english but in greek.

And the greek word for untill doesn't mean d same thing as the english.

btoks:

Church tradition does not go against scriptures. You're interpreting the verse without historical context and coming up with ideas only taught since the 17th century at best . there's a general consensus on Mary's perpetual virginity amongst the church fathers and you'll see the teaching in the Catholic, Orthodox, oriental and even Lutheran churches . I'll rather take the early church interpretation than yours 2000 years after the event. Sola Scriptura cannot explain everything about the faith nor can you justify the bible only practice via it. You always need a guide.
The verse you refer to was to emphasise that Jesus' birth was a virginal birth, nothing more.

Weah96:

From one silly question to the next. I specifically asked you about Isaiah 7:14, and all you 've managed to do was demonstrate cowardice.

The old testament and the Torah are not the same. They are key areas where they differ in translations.

Ubenedictus:

let me get this straight.

So you believe that mary was saved even before the death of Christ?

Ubenedictus:

actually that isn't church tradition.

That is simple greek, the word used the is "heo hous" is doesn't mean that anything happened after.

If you "bible school" pastor studied a little greek he would have known that much.

btoks: yes o,I've tried to explain in simple English to these guys but been hell bent on sola scriptura 2000 years later they never understand.

OLAADEGBU:

That is what the JW's uses to confuse folks. The Bible is clear that Mary sired other children after given birth to Jesus.

OLAADEGBU:

Yes.

OLAADEGBU:

Whenever the church fathers depart from what the apostles recorded in Scriptures who do you think we should obey?

Ukutsgp: probably? u are nt even sure. continue to invent stories. u can tell me that other words agree with english but nt until. u see how myopic u are?

OLAADEGBU:

The onus is on you to show us where they differ.

Ubenedictus:



so you are ignorant of the fact that the bible wasnt written in english?

Ukutsgp:

why is it difficult for u to understand the word 'until' from the op's first post. if u understand, u will nt ask me lame question.

Ubenedictus:

only the ignorant become confused.

Scripture says "study to show thyself approved", all you need to do is study. Check for the greek word for until.

I repeat the bible wasn't written in english.

Ubenedictus:

that is interesting....



So i just hope you know that you are agreeing with catholics on that one.

That mary was saved by God before the death of christ.

Interesting.


So how do you think she was saved?

OLAADEGBU:

Whenever the church fathers depart from what the apostles recorded in Scriptures who do you think we should obey?

btoks:

In any case, we obey the Church ( The bishops in communion with the pope), they are the ones who bind and loose, ratify decisions in councils etc. E.g. Tertullian and Origen once towed the line of the church but once their later views started going against established tradition, the views were deemed heretical and not accepted by the church.
The fact is anyone could read the scriptures and have differing personal views ( this is what happens with the sola scriptura), this is why a guide is required to confirm what the true faith is. It is the church that is the pillar and foundation of truth.

OLAADEGBU:

What then is the difference with those who worship their "men of god"? Chris Oyakhilome sees himself as infallible, that he cannot sin against God and his followers believe him. Don't you also see your Pope as infallible? Should we obey man instead of God? Let the Holy Spirit, who is the author of the Scriptures guide you into the truth.

Ukutsgp: pls mary is nt a virgin. and she had other sons and daughter. pls i have better things to do with tym now.