mbaemeka:

Hope you can see that there is an ALONG WITH, WITH OTHERS, WITH ANOTHER and not ONE PERSON DOING EVERYTHING? Let me spare you of not knowing that it depicts a joint help.

Can 'helpeth' also mean 'help in bearing, help in general'?

Hebrew 7:25 (KJV)
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

This is the verse I had in mind when I compared Holy Spirit Intercession to Christ's High Priestly work in heaven. Intercession however you look at it is something done on behalf of men and nobody has explained how this is accomplished through my own prayers. Let's not be so dogmatic in reading tongues in Romans 8:26 just because we been told so

Mbaemeka,
About Jesus interceding for the whole world, you have provided a verse that says Jesus is PROPITIATION for the whole world a term am sure is totally different from intercession. Please, with the same energy you are dissecting HELPETH, paste the meaning of the word propitiation or at least look it up and you will see it is different. Propitiation has everything to do with the sacrifice and this is available for the whole world to any who believes. Intercession He does for believers alone.

Mediation is intuitive. He does it for all men. Nobody comes to the Father except through Him. This is closely related to the propitiation (sacrifice). But intercession, that's a Christians-only benefit

shdemidemi:


He is every where Bidam, He is a God's Spirit sir.



Bro, it is very possible that a spirit filled christian lie, steal, or fornicate. You and I will do the same or more if we stay away from God's Word. Guess what Paul told a carnal Corinthian church-
1 cor 1
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God is faithful, it is man that constantly fail God by the choices we make.

Apostle Paul warned and beseeched the church to become transformed. That call is a major call for all believers because if we do not get transformed by God's word, we will definitely conform (copy the world/ think the same way they think).

It must be said that we are all a work in progress, we all need a transformation in relative areas of our lives. I might not steal, I might not lie, my own weakness or the part where I conform with the world might be jealousy. No one can see that sort of sin but it is a sin all the same and I will definitely need a transformation in that area.

You are going wide off sir! The question is how does the Holy Spirit groans in believers. Read that verse in Romans 8:26 again. It said we do not know HOW TO PRAY FOR AS WE OUGHT TO. Care to explain why the Holy Spirit is related to the prayers of Christians here? Logic 101, [size=16pt]except a christian prays[/size] the Holy doesn't groan in that particular verse...a simple comprehensible verse really.

You have to really stray outside the verse to string this and then add a dash of imagination

Simple questions;
1. What is intercession?
2. Who makes the intercession
2. How does He make intercession?

Bidam:
You are going wide off sir! The question is how does the Holy Spirit groans in believers. Read that verse in Romans 8:26 again. It said we do not know HOW TO PRAY FOR AS WE OUGHT TO. Care to explain why the Holy Spirit is related to the prayers of Christians here? Logic 101, [size=16pt]except a christian prays[/size] the Holy doesn't groan in that particular verse...a simple comprehensible verse really.

vooks:

This is the verse I had in mind when I compared Holy Spirit Intercession to Christ's High Priestly work in heaven. Intercession however you look at it is something done on behalf of men and nobody has explained how this is accomplished through my own prayers. Let's not be so dogmatic in reading tongues in Romans 8:26 just because we been told so

Let's go through some verses on the Holy Spirit shall we? What do you think this scripture is saying here?
LUKE 11:11-13
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father GIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT TO THEM THAT ASK HIM?

God is more than willing to give Holy Spirit to those who aks among His children

Bidam:
Let's go through some verses on the Holy Spirit shall we? What do you think this scripture is saying here?
LUKE 11:11-13
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father GIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT TO THEM THAT ASK HIM?

vooks:
You have to really stray outside the verse to string this and then add a dash of imagination

Simple questions;
1. What is intercession?
2. Who makes the intercession
2. How does He make intercession?

Na you sabi that one . Let me open your blind eyes here. Does the Holy Spirit speaks through thin air? Look at this verse of scripture.

Acts 13:2 "As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.". You can interpret this verse and say the Holy Spirit is speaking through the air to the disciples gathered here since according to vooks aka shdemidemi God's Spirit is in the air.

vooks:
God is more than willing to give Holy Spirit to those who aks among His children

Good how does God gives the Holy Spirit to believers?

shdemidemi:

Why do you just jumble everything together?
'Children' as used in verse 1 and verse 13 of 1 john 2 is a term of affection teachers use when addressing their disciples. Peter and the rest of the disciples were not literally kids when Jesus called them children. Paul call believers children as well, regardless of the size of their spirituality.
Do you sin?
John knew a bit of how impossible this is hence he made this conditional statement- 'And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous':

I don't know how you can read your own posts and accuse someone else of jumbling things together. You quoted John and I showed you how John classified all those he wrote to in the same book and chapter and yet you left it to tell me Jesus called his disciples little children. While you cannot prove that it was only his disciples he called little children, it is also important to note that calling them little children had nothing to do with their ages or an endearing term but their level of spirituality as he duly explained when he told them so many things that he knew they could not understand at the point in time. Now John has done the same thing. He has told each level of Christians what to expect. If you cannot see it there, then I cannot help you.

Don't ask me that question about sin. I am quoting the scriptures because I believe them and I am growing to that level. I am not claiming it is not for me. The right person to ask should be John. Besides, John didn't say WHEN any man sins he said IF. Do you see how those words differ?

shdemidemi:


Forget the role of the Spirit for a second. What does it mean to intercede?

Forget what it means to intercede. How does the Holy Spirit do so?

nlMediator:


You can see why I hardly take some of you critics seriously. The people you criticize have more integrity in their pinky finger than some of you have in your whole body!

choi

Bidam:
You are going wide off sir! The question is how does the Holy Spirit groans in believers. Read that verse in Romans 8:26 again. It said we do not know HOW TO PRAY FOR AS WE OUGHT TO. Care to explain why the Holy Spirit is related to the prayers of Christians here? Logic 101, [size=16pt]except a christian prays[/size] the Holy doesn't groan in that particular verse...a simple comprehensible verse really.

So many things we might ask God when we see Him.

He said when we believe, we become baptised... Nothing physical proved that to me but I believe it happened because the bible say so.

He said the Holy Spirit will become resident in me... I did not see any shinning light or fire when this happened either but I believe it did happen.

He said the spirit groans within me and also prays in line with God's will for me...My five senses have failed to reveal how He does this but my Faith in the Word agrees with it completely.

He said I died to sin the day I accepted the faith and I became alive with Christ the hour I believed... No evidence.


The bible never promised to tell us how all these spiritual things work but It says 'reckon, consider' all these things done by faith and trust in God's word.

Bidam:
Read that verse in Romans 8:26 again. It said we do not know HOW TO PRAY FOR AS WE OUGHT TO. Care to explain why the Holy Spirit is related to the prayers of Christians here? Logic 101, [size=16pt]except a christian prays[/size] the Holy doesn't groan in that particular verse...a simple comprehensible verse really.

Why don't we know how to pray as we ought to?

We do not know God's will.

Illustration- If the will of God is to put Joseph in prison according to His plan, do you think Joseph himself will ever pray to go prison? He won't because he does not have an idea of what God is doing with his life. Even while in prison, the man tried all he could humanly to be free, but God kept him there till the appointed time.

Similarly, you and I will never pray for pain, but sometimes the only way God teaches us is through pain, We become better than we were before the pain. We really do not know how to pray bro.

If Peter didn't go through the ordeal of denying Jesus, he might think he is god himself after all he had blabbed on how he can never turn is back even if all men turned against Christ. After this experience he learnt his lesson, he realised how fallible he really was.

shdemidemi:


Don't confuse yourself sir.

If it is yet to be actualised, then they can't partake in what Jesus did or what He is doing or what He will yet do. The privilege is for those under the blood of the lamb and not those under the authority of the devil.

Did Jesus die for Christians? Is it not the whole world? Do you tell a sinner come to Jesus so that God will forgive you for your sins or do you say to him come to Jesus because God has forgiven you for your sins.

Jesus is not begging anyone. He never told us he would beg anyone. His sacrifice was perfect and complete. If he has to beg the father for anyone then it means his sacrifice wasn't good enough.

NB: Forgive as used here means remission.

Who told u am Shndemidemi?

Grow up and then debate maturely and I will dignify your post by responding to them

Bidam:
Na you sabi that one . Let me open your blind eyes here. Does the Holy Spirit speaks through thin air? Look at this verse of scripture.

Acts 13:2 "As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.". You can interpret this verse and say the Holy Spirit is speaking through the air to the disciples gathered here since according to vooks aka shdemidemi God's Spirit is in the air.

shdemidemi:


Can 'helpeth' also mean 'help in bearing, help in general'?

Thank God the bible said the Holy Spirit helps US and not that he does it for us. The greek has shown that the help refers to a corroborative effort. The Holy Spirit does not automatically do anything. He helps us while we pray. That's what the scriptures say.

mbaemeka:


Forget what it means to intercede. How does the Holy Spirit do so?

If we don't know what he does, how then do we know how he does it?

What does it mean to intercede?

Semantics again.....The help is by way of intercession. So define intercession other than praying for somebody

mbaemeka:


Thank God the bible said the Holy Spirit helps US and not that he does it for us. The greek has shown that the help refers to a corroborative effort. The Holy Spirit does not automatically do anything. He helps us while we pray. That's what the scriptures say.

mbaemeka:


Thank God the bible said the Holy Spirit helps US and not that he does it for us.

Lets say you help your child do his homework, does that translate directly to doing the homework together with the child?

mbaemeka:
The greek has shown that the help refers to a corroborative effort. The Holy Spirit does not automatically do anything. He helps us while we pray. That's what the scriptures say.

I am also giving you the greek meaning for the same word...

Can 'helpeth' also mean 'help in bearing, help in general'?

vooks:
Hebrew 7:25 (KJV)
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

This is the verse I had in mind when I compared Holy Spirit Intercession to Christ's High Priestly work in heaven. Intercession however you look at it is something done on behalf of men and nobody has explained how this is accomplished through my own prayers. Let's not be so dogmatic in reading tongues in Romans 8:26 just because we been told so

Mbaemeka,
About Jesus interceding for the whole world, you have provided a verse that says Jesus is PROPITIATION for the whole world a term am sure is totally different from intercession. Please, with the same energy you are dissecting HELPETH, paste the meaning of the word propitiation or at least look it up and you will see it is different. Propitiation has everything to do with the sacrifice and this is available for the whole world to any who believes. Intercession He does for believers alone.

Mediation is intuitive. He does it for all men. Nobody comes to the Father except through Him. This is closely related to the propitiation (sacrifice). But intercession, that's a Christians-only benefit

Go back and read my posts well and stop asking me questions OP. I said Jesus role as an intercessor is not the same with the Holy Spirit's because the Holy Spirit's role is metted out to the christian with the cooperation of the Christian but Jesus role is for the whole of mankind. If you read that whole chapter well you would understand the writers point. Paul was saying that as High priests in the past made sacrifices for themselves and for others this present High priest did same for others even if he himself did not need it. But unlike the other high priests who needed to keep making the same sacrifices yearly and who eventually died this present high priest did his once and is forever alive to make intercession for those that come to him.

The question you would need to answer in understanding that verse is to ask yourself why he needs to make the intercession. Is it that he needs to reshow the father his blood and say forgive him, forgive her or is it that his blood is forever there as proof that those who are in him are forgiven? Does he speak or does his blood speak?

Now compare that with the Holy Spirit's role to the church

shdemidemi:


If we don't know what he does, how then do we know how he does it?

What does it mean to intercede?

To mediate, to arbitrate, to moderate etc.

Now how does the Holy Spirit do it?

mbaemeka:

I don't know how you can read your own posts and accuse someone else of jumbling things together. You quoted John and I showed you how John classified all those he wrote to in the same book and chapter and yet you left it to tell me Jesus called his disciples little children. While you cannot prove that it was only his disciples he called little children, it is also important to note that calling them little children had nothing to do with their ages or an endearing term but their level of spirituality as he duly explained when he told them so many things that he knew they could not understand at the point in time. Now John has done the same thing. He has told each level of Christians what to expect. If you cannot see it there, then I cannot help you.

What did he tell the fathers to expect?

What did he tell the diminutive to expect?

mbaemeka:

Don't ask me that question about sin. I am quoting the scriptures because I believe them and I am growing to that level. I am not claiming it is not for me. The right person to ask should be John.

At least, you did not lie that you do not sin. Thank God.

mbaemeka:
Besides, John didn't say WHEN any man sins he said IF. Do you see how those words differ?

They do differ, I agree. Do you know of any man that does not sin?

vooks:
Semantics again.....The help is by way of intercession. So define intercession other than praying for somebody

I don't know how you people read.

1. Likewise the spirit helps US.
2. In OUR OWN weaknesses
3. For WE do not know how to PRAY the way we ought to.
4. So the Spirit makes intercession FOR US with groanings.

Helps- joint help, a partnership. The Holy Spirit partners with us when we are weak in prayer because we do not pray rightly as we ought to. So he intercedes for us through groanings.

How does the spirit groan? Through us.
Why? Because we may not be praying rightly.

The verse is clear enough. The Holy Spirit does not stand on his own. He is God himself. He cannot pray to himself so he uses the christian to pray so that he would pray rightly. That's why it is a collaborative effort.

shdemidemi:


Lets say you help your child do his homework, does that translate directly to doing the homework together with the child?



I am also giving you the greek meaning for the same word...

Can 'helpeth' also mean 'help in bearing, help in general'?

I am not in my child. The Holy Spirit is in the christian.

There are different words for help in the scriptures. The one used there is not a help in general. It is a joint help.

mbaemeka:


To mediate, to arbitrate, to moderate etc.

Now how does the Holy Spirit do it?

If the Holy Spirit mediates like you said, that makes Him the mediator. A mediator gives a picture of somebody pleading for or against a person before another.

Do you agree?

High Priestly ministry even in the OT was for God's people not EVERYONE. There is nothing in Hebrews suggesting intercession is for everyone. The very verse employs pronoun THEM. who are 'them'? Those that come to God by Him. How difficult is it to see that. We are running against man made traditions again!

Show me where Christ's intercession is for EVERYONE. Your question is hopelessly irrelevant. You need to aks you EXACTLY what intercession Christ lives to make for those that come to God by him. Who told you it is forgiveness? Silly strawman you are erecting and knocking off


The parallel between Jesus' and Holy Spirit intercession role is to demonstrate how they are done independent of the beneficiary. So there is no way Spirit intercession can be the very prayers you are making

mbaemeka:


Go back and read my posts well and stop asking me questions OP. I said Jesus role as an intercessor is not the same with the Holy Spirit's because the Holy Spirit's role is metted out to the christian with the cooperation of the Christian but Jesus role is for the whole of mankind. If you read that whole chapter well you would understand the writers point. Paul was saying that as High priests in the past made sacrifices for themselves and for others this present High priest did same for others even if he himself did not need it. But unlike the other high priests who needed to keep making the same sacrifices yearly and who eventually died this present high priest did his once and is forever alive to make intercession for those that come to him.

The question you would need to answer in understanding that verse is to ask yourself why he needs to make the intercession. Is it that he needs to reshow the father his blood and say forgive him, forgive her or is it that his blood is forever there as proof that those who are in him are forgiven? Does he speak or does his blood speak?

Now compare that with the Holy Spirit's role to the church

Sick illogic. Jesus intercedes for the saints. To whom does he intercede? To God? Does God intercede to God? What/who does he use to intercede?

The point is there is nothing absurd in Jesus (God) interceding for us to the Father(God) so why does it appear ludicrous that the Spirit (God) does the same?

mbaemeka:


I don't know how you people read.

1. Likewise the spirit helps US.
2. In OUR OWN weaknesses
3. For WE do not know how to PRAY the way we ought to.
4. So the Spirit makes intercession FOR US with groanings.

Helps- joint help, a partnership. The Holy Spirit partners with us when we are weak in prayer because we do not pray rightly as we ought to. So he intercedes for us through groanings.

How does the spirit groan? Through us.
Why? Because we may not be praying rightly.

The verse is clear enough. The Holy Spirit does not stand on his own. He is God himself. He cannot pray to himself so he uses the christian to pray so that he would pray rightly. That's why it is a collaborative effort.

shdemidemi:


What did he tell the fathers to expect?

What did he tell the diminutive to expect?


At least, you did not lie that you do not sin. Thank God.



They do differ, I agree. Do you know of any man that does not sin?

Just take your time to read it. The fathers are the mature christians. The one's who are well acquainted with the workings of God. They have known him well. The young men are those who are no longer tossed to and fro by doctrines. They are the one's who have placed the devil where he ought to belong- under foot.

Instead of asking me if I know of any man that doesn't sin why not believe John enough to grow to that level that he said was possible.

shdemidemi:


If the Holy Spirit mediates like you said, that makes Him the mediator. A mediator gives a picture of somebody pleading for or against a person before another.

Do you agree?

The Holy Spirit is in the christian. That's how and from where he mediates.

mbaemeka:


I am not in my child. The Holy Spirit is in the christian.

Are you joking? The focus here is the word 'help' and not the helper's position.

mbaemeka:
There are different words for help in the scriptures. The one used there is not a help in general. It is a joint help.

check this -

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ctWbMD0_p_UC&pg=PT2720&lpg=PT2720&dq=Romans+8:26+vine%27s+expository+dictionary&source=bl&ots=XyaKu9q7uo&sig=xT7CmR6f78IH6o_f31oo9S38e4Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6_lbVIO6LNPfaPaCgMgH&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Romans%208%3A26%20vine's%20expository%20dictionary&f=false

vooks:

High Priestly ministry even in the OT was for God's people not EVERYONE. There is nothing in Hebrews suggesting intercession is for everyone. The very verse employs pronoun THEM. who are 'them'? Those that come to God by Him. How difficult is it to see that. We are running against man made traditions again!

Show me where Christ's intercession is for EVERYONE. Your question is hopelessly irrelevant. You need to aks you EXACTLY what intercession Christ lives to make for those that come to God by him. Who told you it is forgiveness? Silly strawman you are erecting and knocking off


The parallel between Jesus' and Holy Spirit intercession role is to demonstrate how they are done independent of the beneficiary. So there is no way Spirit intercession can be the very prayers you are making

The word mediate and intercede mean the same things hope you know. Also, your reasoning that the High priest only worked for God's people and not everyone is equally OP like most of your posts. Jesus did not die on the cross for God's people, he died for the whole world. Do you see how the OT high priests and he differ?

My question was not irrelevant but because you don't even understand what is being discussed you saw no reason to respond to them. If you say his role as an intercessor is for only christians and that it had nothing to do with forgiveness then please show us what the role is. Also show us how he carries them out.

Your last paragraph is as dumb as it gets. Jesus is in HEAVEN making intercessions. The Holy Spirit is in christians helping them while they pray and you are drawing a parallel. What parallel? Why didn't the Holy Spirit stretch his own hands to heal people? Why did he answer the apostles by using their own hands?

vooks:
Jesus intercedes for the saints. To whom does he intercede? To God? Does God intercede to God? What/who does he use to intercede?

I have shown how Jesus intercedes for the world and how the Holy Spirit intercedes for the saints. You lot should tell us how Jesus is there in heaven begging the father to keep the saints saved or answer their prayers. Even when Jesus told us he would never do that.

mbaemeka:


Just take your time to read it. The fathers are the mature christians. The one's who are well acquainted with the workings of God. They have known him well. The young men are those who are no longer tossed to and fro by doctrines. They are the one's who have placed the devil where he ought to belong- under foot.

Kindly show me where he spoke to each category according to their spiritual status in that chapter.

mbaemeka:
Instead of asking me if I know of any man that doesn't sin why not believe John enough to grow to that level that he said was possible.

You don't need to be evasive, I know you know nobody like that. EOD