TIME

Time is at the heart of the confusion.

Time is only a side effect of human perception. It is not a property of the universe. It is a human psychological condition.

Imagine a brain scanner taking pictures of slices of a brain. The brain scanner only sees a two dimensional slice in an instant. The scanner sees the slice "CHANGING" in the two dimensions as the scanner sweeps through the brain.

But, someone who can see the WHOLE -- the WHOLE brain -- doesn't see these "CHANGES". To them it is ALL ONE instantaneous and comprehensive image.

The brain scanner creates TIME to measure these changes. But this TIME does not exist to the whole brain. TIME is just a side effect the scanner suffers due to its limited perception.

After creating TIME, the scanner then tries to explain the artificial CHANGES in terms of CAUSE AND EFFECT. But CAUSE AND EFFECT is just an illusion caused by the creation of artificial TIME.

The scanner goes on to ask about ORIGIN. Because of its limited perception, it sees one cell appearing before another. It thinks it is all due to CAUSE AND EFFECT. So, it asks, where does it all begin.

BUT the image is ONE. TIME is an illusion. CAUSE AND EFFECT is an illusion. ORIGIN is an illusion.

So it is, with humans. We create TIME because we do not comprehend the WHOLE. We seek ORIGIN because we have created TIME.

This leads religious folk to seek GOD.

And scientists to get STUCK.

Both are caused by illusion.

The answer is to transcend our perceptual limitations, and to comprehend outside the envelope of time.

@ sinequanon

Have you achieved the ability to perceive the universe outside the envelope of time?

Sinnequanon,

I have been following your posts.


You ask great questions and create good philosophical debates. Unfortunately, you end up making no serious point at all.


What is the point of this thread? I ask this because, you seem not to notice because that the problem you highlighted is not a problem of science or religion. It is a problem with general human perception.


Time is one thing that limits human understanding.................

OP are you talking about astral projection?. The astral plain is the only place where time doesn't exist.

sinequanon:

The answer is to transcend our perceptual limitations, and to comprehend outside the envelope of time.

How?

Thus is crap dressed up in quasi-philosophical Mumbo-Jumbo.

what is time?

LordReed:
@ sinequanon

Have you achieved the ability to perceive the universe outside the envelope of time?

I don't think that is a "yes" or "no" answer.

Humans do achieve states of mind (when dreaming for example) where TIME factors differently, or not at all.

A supposedly very "long" dream in fact takes hardly any TIME to apprehend.

Some people liken a dream to a download of something TIMELESS which our conscious mind then has to interpret using TIME. Our brains recall the dream using TIME, but the dream itself came from a TIMELESS domain. It shows that some part of us is comfortable without TIME. We revert to time in our waking life.

In mathematics and science, we often factor TIME out and visualize it using a chart or spatial axes, instead. A famous example is this one that helps us visualize the WHOLE.



Psychologically, I would say we are ALWAYS factoring TIME out, but only of a few seconds. (Our language confines me to use TIME to describe it). We hold a picture, not just of the instant, but of a short duration, using what we call "short term recall" and anticipation. We would not be able to make sense of the world if we couldn't do this. We apprehend the DURATION as one TIMELESS block.

These are things we can develop.

In more direct answer to your question, our comprehension is not incapable of escaping the envelop of TIME, and does in fact do it occasionally. Philosophers and science fiction writers understand the sorts of things involved.

(NB note how our language has evolved so that I even have to acknowledge TIME even when talking about TIMELESSNESS).

AllNaijaBlogger:
What is the point of this thread? I ask this because, you seem not to notice because that the problem you highlighted is not a problem of science or religion. It is a problem with general human perception.

The problem has fed into religion and science.

Didn't you get the point? The question of our ORIGIN, which religion and science try to answer, comes from the belief that a TIME ORIGIN is a MUST. And that is due to the problem with human perception.

UyiIredia:
Thus is crap dressed up in quasi-philosophical Mumbo-Jumbo.

More of confused new ageism.

joseph1832:
OP are you talking about astral projection?. The astral plain is the only place where time doesn't exist.

I wasn't.

Some people do use artificial means, like astral projection, meditation, drugs etc. to intercept TIME. (Some people would argue that meditation is not artificial.)

In all cases the brain, which is what reckons using TIME, has to be in an obstructed or quiescent state.

In the quiescent state, which I think we can learn to achieve naturally at will, our faculties are at their best. We reckon we are in deep thought, but we are bypassing THINKING and using something deeper. That is why you can think very hard to recall something, but it is only when you relax or are "daydreaming" in that TIMELESS space that the answer pops into your head. You can learn to relax at will. I have done this, and my "memory recall" has improved dramatically.

undercat:


How?

Learning to relax the physical brain. It is the brain that is aliased to TIME.

Can you dream? If you can, then you can relax the brain and engage something deeper.

Let me give you an example...

A group of us were trying to recall the six main characters in the game of Cluedo.

They are...

Miss Scarlett
Professor Plum
Mrs. Peacock (the blue piece)
Reverend Green
Colonel Mustard
Mrs. White

ALL but Mrs. Peacock are names of colours, and we got those 5 immediately. Nobody could remember Mrs. Peacock. They started to discuss it, and prompt each other vigorously.

I left the group and went to "think" by myself. Half a minute later, I produced the answer, much to their surprise.

I had left because I knew that the "logical" brain was not going to produce the answer. The logical brain and logical thinking was going to BLOCK the answer.

I relaxed my thinking and went into a perceptive state -- NO LOGIC.

The word "TURQUOISE" just came to me! I could feel it channel to my brain from my consciouness.

I remember thinking "no, that's not it", and relaxing again.

Then the word "TURKEY",and then "PEACOCK" came to me. There was no thinking involved, just relaxation. And I could FEEL the words entering, and my brain picking them up and deciphering them. It is not something you can understand, unless you have made the effort to develop it. I could feel something deeper, my consciousness, prompting my logical brain with things it could understand.

(NB the link TURKEY sounds like TURQUOISE, but is also the name of a bird, with some similarity to a peacock.)

Kay17:
what is time?

A figment of our limited perception.

It is a way our brain organizes events.

If we had "perfect recall" and "perfect infinite anticipation" we would comprehend everything in an instant, and there would be no TIME as we commonly know it.

sinequanon:


I wasn't.

Some people do use artificial means, like astral projection, meditation, drugs etc. to intercept TIME. (Some people would argue that meditation is not artificial.)

In all cases the brain, which is what reckons using TIME, has to be in an obstructed or quiescent state.

In the quiescent state, which I think we can learn to achieve naturally at will, our faculties are at their best. We reckon we are in deep thought, but we are bypassing THINKING and using something deeper. That is why you can think very hard to recall something, but it is only when you relax or are "daydreaming" in that TIMELESS space that the answer pops into your head. You can learn to relax at will. I have done this, and my "memory recall" has improved dramatically.

What is that timeless space, surely there's a name for it if you've experienced it?,

joseph1832:
What is that timeless space, surely there's a name for it if you've experienced it?,

Maybe there is in some culture and language. Not all languages/cultures have a word for something.

I am not thinking astral projection if that is what you mean.

I am thinking more along the lines of the absence of obstruction, and the absence of the TIME creating engine -- certain brain interference that invokes TIME.

sinequanon:


Maybe there is in some culture and language. Not all languages/cultures have a word for something.

I am not thinking astral projection if that is what you mean.

I am thinking more along the lines of the absence of obstruction, and the absence of the TIME creating engine -- certain brain interference that invokes TIME.

How then can we have a frame of reference towards objects and events?

sinequanon:


Maybe there is in some culture and language. Not all languages/cultures have a word for something.

I am not thinking astral projection if that is what you mean.

I am thinking more along the lines of the absence of obstruction, and the absence of the TIME creating engine -- certain brain interference that invokes TIME.

When you've found a word for it, let me know.

sinequanon:


Learning to relax the physical brain. It is the brain that is aliased to TIME.

This sounds to me like you are able to access memories quicker. I agree that memory recall is easier when the brain is relaxed but I don't see how this has any effect on time perception.

Also, to what extent do you think our perception of time will change, once we are able to comprehend the whole? Would we no longer experience the passage of time?

For me, assuming the whole refers to the entire universe and we would still require our eyes and ears to perceive, I don't think it is possible not to experience the passage of time.

undercat:


This sounds to me like you are able to access memories quicker. I agree that memory recall is easier when the brain is relaxed but I don't see how this has any effect on time perception.

It is in this mode that we say TIME "flies" or "stands still". When our brain is not cranking out logic, we can also see TIME recede. Dreams, going into autopilot, emergency situations etc. are examples of activities involving changed TIME perception.

undercat:
Also, to what extent do you think our perception of time will change, once we are able to comprehend the whole? Would we no longer experience the passage of time?

If we could comprehend the whole, there would be no passage of time. Every event will have perfect, equal and immediate clarity. There would be no passage from the "known" to the "unknown", because there wouldn't be any unknown. There wouldn't be any sense of future or past.

undercat:
For me, assuming the whole refers to the entire universe and we would still require our eyes and ears to perceive, I don't think it is possible not to experience the passage of time.

For me, consciousness is fundamental. Eyes and ears are only human channels for the consciousness.

sinequanon:


In all cases the brain, which is what reckons using TIME, has to be in an obstructed or quiescent state.

In the quiescent state, which I think we can learn to achieve naturally at will, our faculties are at their best. We reckon we are in deep thought, but we are bypassing THINKING and using something deeper. That is why you can think very hard to recall something, but it is only when you relax or are "daydreaming" in that TIMELESS space that the answer pops into your head. You can learn to relax at will. I have done this, and my "memory recall" has improved dramatically.

Great thread! I would like to suggest a bit more precision to what you are saying. It is the brain which reckons using time, but MORE SPECIFICALLY it is the Left hemisphere of the brain.

Let's look into left brain/right brain dichotomy. I'll see if I can find any interesting links. brb.

PastorAIO:


Great thread! I would like to suggest a bit more precision to what you are saying. It is the brain which reckons using time, but MORE SPECIFICALLY it is the Left hemisphere of the brain.

Let's look into left brain/right brain dichotomy. I'll see if I can find any interesting links. brb.

This is what I have daubed "the logical brain". Scientifically, it has been mapped to the left hemisphere of the brain.

I would say its activity dominates our social and political communications and interactions, at least in Western societies. So it has its fingerprints in the religions and science of the day.

@sinequanon

We do have periods of changed time perception. However, we still perceive time during these periods, though it maybe be faster or slower.

The issue I'm having difficulty with is, as you hinted at when you referred to known and unknown, that to perceive the whole would require you to have all the information at once, or to know everything. Omnipotence. It's either that or you learn new things, in which case we can see the operation of time as you go from not knowing something to knowing it.

Can the human brain as it is even come close to knowing everything? I believe the answer is no, but of course you don't think we would use the brain to perceive the whole.

Instead, you say consciousness is fundamental. I don't think I can find your particular line of thought elsewhere so I'll be happy if you can elucidate. For starters, what is consciousness fundamental to?

undercat:
@sinequanon

We do have periods of changed time perception. However, we still perceive time during these periods, though it maybe be faster or slower.

Another perspective is that it is the process of recall which organizes our experience, using time. I use the dream example. I don't know if you have woken up and recalled a "long" dream, only to look at the clock and realize that the clock disagrees with you?

However, my point is not to claim that we can humanly divest ourselves of time, but that we can move in that direction if we paid attention to what is involved in these apparent fluctuations.

undercat:
The issue I'm having difficulty with is, as you hinted at when you referred to known and unknown, that to perceive the whole would require you to have all the information at once, or to know everything. Omnipotence. It's either that or you learn new things, in which case we can see the operation of time as you go from not knowing something to knowing it.

Agreed. I am saying that omnipotence totally dissolves passage of time.

But I am also saying that the more open our perception (the less constrained by dogma and certain mental interference) the LESS we experience the passage of time.

undercat:
Can the human brain as it is even come close to knowing everything? I believe the answer is no, but of course you don't think we would use the brain to perceive the whole.

As they say, a miss is as good as a mile. So, I agree. The brain blocks knowing all.

undercat:
Instead, you say consciousness is fundamental. I don't think I can find your particular line of thought elsewhere so I'll be happy if you can elucidate. For starters, what is consciousness fundamental to?

(I don't follow particular philosophies, but the closest thing I could find is "idealism".)

Essentially, I am saying that the mind or consciousness exists outside of space and time, and that space and time supervene on consciousness. i.e they are a result or perception within conscious state -- e.g elements of human consciousness.

Materialism says the reverse, that consciousness emerged from a particular complex state of matter/configuration of space and time.

So, I am saying that consciousness cannot be factored into causal elements. It is that elusive thing that just IS, and on which all else supervenes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFs9WO2B8uI

sinequanon:


The problem has fed into religion and science.

Didn't you get the point? The question of our ORIGIN, which religion and science try to answer, comes from the belief that a TIME ORIGIN is a MUST. And that is due to the problem with human perception.

Science and religion are two very different entities.

I am assuming that you are a fellow christian.

Science holds various beliefs about time. I hope you know that there are many competing theories and hypotheses within and outside the big bang theory.


That being said, the bible is very straightforward on creation and time; God created everything, including time. This is what I believe.

sinequanon:


A figment of our limited perception.

It is a way our brain organizes events.

If we had "perfect recall" and "perfect infinite anticipation" we would comprehend everything in an instant, and there would be no TIME as we commonly know it.

Then if progression removed from the picture, it implies that everything happens in an instant, right?

Also is this figment of man's imagination, is a conscious or unconscious function of the brain?

PastorAIO:




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFs9WO2B8uI

Excellent!

And so many of the things I have been saying, myself, LOL!

Including my use of "logical brain" instead of left hemisphere! He even mentions Western culture, and the blocking mechanism of the brain (frontal lobe) in the same way. Yet, I swear that what I have posted I gleaned independent, from my own personal experience.

Couple of things I didn't agree with, but most of it seems spot on, to me.

AllNaijaBlogger:



Science and religion are two very different entities.

I am assuming that you are a fellow christian.

Nope. If you are arguing from a "which camp?" perspective, we will get nowhere.

sinequanon:


Nope. If you are arguing from a "which camp?" perspective, we will get nowhere.

So you're not a christian.

Okay.


What if time does not exist? Or time is relative?

Have you seen the movie "interstellar"

Again, the paradox of time and how it relates to the speed of light, distance, matter and consciousness is at the heart of studies in Quantum physics.
So , I think it's a bit short sighted to say that science is stuck.
Being stuck only suggests that it is a very complicated and multidimensional paradox, given how very young we are in understanding the all dynamics of our universe.

Again, by actually exploring this paradox of time, science distinguishes itself still as the most reliable arbiter of reality.

Now, engaging in this or that type of meditation techniques does not address paradox of time, nor does it add any value in terms of how we deal with it.

This is the problem I have with these spiritual disciplines that aim to transcend the alleged distortions of physical impulses by supposedly transcending them.

In other words, in this physical mechanistic universe, our consciousness are embedded and intertwined into the present timeloop.
The best we can do is to think about time . I doubt if we can actually do anything to change or alter it.

sinequanon:


A figment of our limited perception.

It is a way our brain organizes events.

If we had "perfect recall" and "perfect infinite anticipation" we would comprehend everything in an instant, and there would be no TIME as we commonly know it.

The brain scanner creates TIME to measure these changes. But this TIME does not exist to the whole brain. TIME is just a side effect the scanner suffers due to its limited perception.

After creating TIME, the scanner then tries to explain the artificial CHANGES in terms of CAUSE AND EFFECT. But CAUSE AND EFFECT is just an illusion caused by the creation of artificial TIME.

The scanner goes on to ask about ORIGIN. Because of its limited perception, it sees one cell appearing before another. It thinks it is all due to CAUSE AND EFFECT. So, it asks, where does it all begin.

BUT the image is ONE. TIME is an illusion. CAUSE AND EFFECT is an illusion. ORIGIN is an illusion.

Hmmmm.... Can we stretch this idea out? We experience events as occurring one after the other in time and we presume a Causal chain. Yet is it only Time that is a tool for organising experience? What about space? We see events occuring here and there and we presume that there are influences that extend from one event to the other. e.g I'm hot because the Sun above is hot.


But to be fair to this presumption of causality there does seem to be patterns. When a guy sows it follows (more often that not) that a few months later he will reap according to what he sowed.

Further more we have a sense of being able to exercise choices. ALSO we have a sense of being faced with a number of possible futures.

So if, as you claimed, we can 'visualize the whole' ....

In mathematics and science, we often factor TIME out and visualize it using a chart or spatial axes, instead. A famous example is this one that helps us visualize the WHOLE.

... How whole is that Whole? To Wholly visualize something we would need to grasp NOT ONLY it's contours along a Time dimension but also all it's POSSIBLE manifestations. This would require us to 'factor out' an Hyper-space.


I hope what I'm writing doesn't sound to convoluted.

I'm trying to postulate an object that is perceived Wholly and immediately, i.e it's contours extend through our normal 3 dimensional space, it also extends across Time, and furthermore it's contours also extend across a number of hyper dimensional spaces (perhaps an infinite number of hyper dimensions).

When we return to experiencing Time moment by moment we lose sight of the object's contours across time, and also we lose sight of all the infinite possibilities that could be occurring in that instant. The object becomes an Actuality. So Actuality is nothing but a fragment of the real essence of being.

plaetton:
Again, the paradox of time and how it relates to the speed of light, distance, matter and consciousness is at the heart of studies in Quantum physics.
So , I think it's a bit short sighted to say that science is stuck.
Being stuck only suggests that it is a very complicated and multidimensional paradox, given how very young we are in understanding the all dynamics of our universe.

Again, by actually exploring this paradox of time, science distinguishes itself still as the most reliable arbiter of reality.

Now, engaging in this or that type of meditation techniques does not address paradox of time, nor does it add any value in terms of how we deal with it.

This is the problem I have with these spiritual disciplines that aim to transcend the alleged distortions of physical impulses by supposedly transcending them.

In other words, in this physical mechanistic universe, our consciousness are embedded and intertwined into the present timeloop.
The best we can do is to think about time . I doubt if we can actually do anything to change or alter it.

Thanks for eloquently stating the bold.

My problem with Sinequannon is that he/she turns science into a religion and makes it sound more philosophical than it is.

We are learning though science and we are seeing how time, matter and space are things that can be counter-intuitive at the quantum level.

To suggest that science is stuck (as Sinequanon did) means that we aren't learning new things about time, space and matter.