i was with some preachers today, they kept ringing on and on how jesus came to die for the sins of mankind so that mankind can be forgiven.
i asked them a simple question "why couldnt God just forgive mankind instead of murdering his son, i thought he was all powerful, all good and all merciful and loving. must he kill his son before forgiving

.

It wasn't about forgiving mankind. Jesus was the mediator between God and us. He loved us so much he sent his son to die for us.

MzNelly:
It wasn't about forgiving mankind. Jesus was the mediator between God and us. He loved us so much he sent his son to die for us.

to die for us for what exactly

johnydon22:


to die for us for what exactly

When Adam sinned, he severed the relationship between man and humans. Man could no longer communicate with God.
Another perfect man (Jesus) had to intercede to make it possible for us to approach the Almighty via prayer.

MzNelly:

When Adam sinned, he severed the relationship between man and humans. Man could no longer communicate with God.
Another perfect man (Jesus) had to intercede to make it possible for us to approach the Almighty via prayer.

In the olden days...when we sin against the gods...we must bring a sacrifice to appease him...isn't this synonymous with the bible God?

MzNelly:

When Adam sinned, he severed the relationship between man and humans. Man could no longer communicate with God.
Another perfect man (Jesus) had to intercede to make it possible for us to approach the Almighty via prayer.

so God cant really simply heal the severed relationship without killing his son.... he is all powerful, he can do all things. . why didnt he just do it, must killing his son be involved
talking about jesus being a perfect man, well sorry to say this but he wasnt.. no human father; holy spirit was his father... virgin birth!!!... he is not a perfect man infact in human terms someone said to be born of a spirit or a god and human woman or man is call demigod. . . so how exactly was jesus a perfect man

herald9:



In the olden days...when we sin against the gods...we must bring a sacrifice to appease him...isn't this synonymous with the bible God?

That was in ancient times. Imagine if humans had to make such sacrifices. Everyday, animals will be killed cos we sin everyday!
Hence, the propitiatory sacrifice in the person of Jesus.

johnydon22:


so God cant really simply heal the severed relationship without killing his son.... he is all powerful, he can do all things. . why didnt he just do it, must killing his son be involved

He did not kill his son. Jesus was more like, the 'last sacrifice' to end all sacrifices.

MzNelly:

That was in ancient times. Imagine if humans had to make such sacrifices. Everyday, animals will be killed cos we sin everyday!
Hence, the propitiatory sacrifice in the person of Jesus.

it still boils down to the question... why cant God just forgive humans without demanding any sacrifice or without ultimately bashing his son as the ultimate sacrifice

MzNelly:

He did not kill his son. Jesus was more like, the 'last sacrifice' to end all sacrifices.

he did not kill jesus? . . . remind again who sent Jesus
and why must they be a sacrifice to end sacrifice... why not just stop it since he changed his mind on sacrifices.

johnydon22:

he did not kill jesus? . . . remind again who sent Jesus
and why must they be a sacrifice to end sacrifice... why not juat stop it since he changed his mind on sacrifices.

That's all i can say. You should do the research if you really want to know. I do not fancy typing voluminous notes.

MzNelly:

That's all i can say. You should do the research if you really want to know. I do not fancy typing voluminous notes.

lmao...

johnydon22:


it still boils down to the question... why cant God just forgive humans without demanding any sacrifice or without ultimately bashing his son as the ultimate sacrifice

I suggest you read up on it.

johnydon22:


lmao...

I bet he thinks i'm outta words.



Goodnight.

johnydon22:
i was with some preachers today, they kept ringing on and on how jesus came to die for the sins of mankind so that mankind can be forgiven.
i asked them a simple question "why couldnt God just forgive mankind instead of murdering his son, i thought he was all powerful, all good and all merciful and loving. must he kill his son before forgiving

Its for two reasons I think:

1: There is a difference between pardon and remission.

Sin is divided into Cause (The act of disobedience), Consequence (guilt or sorrow or pain) and Condemnation (death)

Pardon only waves the act of disobedience; it doesn't wave the resultant sorrow and pain or the eventual death.

You told your child not to play outside after dark, he disobeys you and got bitten by a snake. You may pardon his disobedience, but he is still in pain and will still die if nothing is done.

God pardoned the sin of the children of Israel in the wilderness, but that generation still all perished in that wilderness. Because pardon isn't remission.

Numbers 14v20-23 -And the Lord said, I have pardoned according to thy word: But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord.

Because all those men, which have seen my glory.... And have tempted me now these ten times...

Surely they shall not see the land which I swear unto their fathers.

Pardon didn't remove consequence (not seeing the land) or condemnation (perishing in the wilderness).

God also pardoned David, for adultery with Bathsheba and the death of Uriah, but the child still died, and Absalom (his son) still slept with all the concubines of David (which was the curse of the sin)

Pardon doesn't remove the consequence and the condemnation of the sin. Only remission does. And remission is ONLY BY THE SHEDDING OF (sinless) BLOOD.

Jesus, the Son of the living God is the only one that could bring remission for our sins (cause, consequence and condemnation); through His death.

2: The second reason Jesus had to die, I think is because forgiveness doesn't make us new creation.

Jesus had to die and resurrect, to become the first begotten from the dead and the firstborn of the new creation.

So that those who put their faith in His death and resurrection, can become new creation too.

His death brought remission, His resurrection brought the new creation. So a christian is more than just a forgiven sinner, he is a new creation.

A mere pardon couldn't have given man remission much less made us new creation. Only death and resurrection could pull that off.

I hope this helps a little.

MzNelly:

I suggest you read up on it.

lol have read it countless times, still makes no sense to me. . .. and am sure it makes no sense to u too but u just have to believe it with faith

ayoku777:


Its for two reasons I think:

1: There is a difference between pardon and remission.

Sin is divided into Cause (The act of disobedience), Consequence (guilt or sorrow or pain) and Condemnation (death)

Pardon only waves the act of disobedience; it doesn't wave the resultant sorrow and pain or the eventual death.

You told your child not to plat outside after dark, he disobeys you and got bitten by a snake. You may pardon his disobedience, but he is still in pain and will still die if nothing is done.

God pardoned the sin of the children of Israel in the wilderness, but that generation still all perished in that wilderness. Because pardon isn't remission.

Numbers 14v20-23 -And the Lord said, I have pardoned according to thy word: But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord.

Because all those men, which have seen my glory.... And have tempted me now these ten times...

Surely they shall not see the which I swear unto their fathers.

Pardon didn't remove consequence (not see the land) or condemnation (perishing in the wilderness).

God also pardoned David, for adultery with Bathsheba and the death of Uriah, but the child still died, and Absalom (his son) still slept with all the concubines of David (which was the curse of the sin)

Pardon doesn't remove the consequence and the condemnation of the sin. Only remission does. And remission is ONLY BY THE SHEDDING OF (sinless) BLOOD.

Jesus, the Son of the living God is the only one that could bring remission for our sins; pardon the act and remove the guilt and the death, through His death.

2: The second reason Jesus had to die, I think is because forgiveness doesn't make us new creation.

Jesus had to die and resurrect, to become the first begotten from the dead and the firstborn of the new creation.

So that those who put their faith in His death and resurrection, can become new creation too.

His death brought remission, His resurrection brought the new creation. So a christian is more than just a forgiven sinner, he is a new creation.

A mere pardon couldn't have given man remission much less made us new creation. Only death and resurrection could pull that off.

I hope this helps.

still on the matter "so God cant grant humans pardon and remission without killing his son . . . .

johnydon22:


lol have read it countless times, still makes no sense to me. . .. and am sure it makes no sense to u too but u just have to believe it with faith

Oh no. I'm just too tired to enter into a conversation with you knowing whatever i say is going to be countered, without being properly scrutinized.

MzNelly:

I bet he thinks i'm outta words.



Goodnight.

good night sweetheart.. i didnt think you are out of words. . .am sure u werent my dear

MzNelly:

Oh no. I'm just too tired to enter into a conversation with you knowing whatever i say is going to be countered, without being properly scrutinized.

lol

johnydon22:


good night sweetheart.. i didnt think you are out of words. . .am sure u werent my dear

I hope he meant that.

johnydon22:


lol

You see.

MzNelly:

I hope he meant that.

ofcus i do sweety

MzNelly:

You see.

sweetheart why dont you think over it tonight, you will see it doesnt really make sense.

johnydon22:



still on the matter "so God cant grant humans pardon and remission without killing his son . . . .

The bible says remission is by the shedding of blood. I think the problem is, you think God should be able to circumvent any protocol because He is God.

No! God is not like that, He doesn't super-impose His sovereignty on every process.

I don't know why remission has to be by blood. But scripture says it is.

I think the fundamental flaw is that you don't believe the bible is God's word. So you want the reason for Christ's death to be rationalized outside the scripture.

johnydon22:


sweetheart why dont you think over it tonight, you will see it doesnt really make sense.

*sighs*


Goodnight Sir.

ayoku777:


The bible says remission is by the shedding of blood. I think the problem is, you think God should be able to circumvent any protocol because He is God.

No God is not like that, He doesn't super-impose His sovereignty on every process.

I don't know why remission has to be by blood. But scripture says it.

I think the fundamental flaw is that you don't believe the bible is God's word. So you want the reason for Christ's death to be rationalized outside the scripture.

ok now let us judge from what you said here... remind me again WHO MADE THOSE PROTOCOLS, WHO MADE THOSE PROTOCOL THAT REMISSION MUST BE BY BLOOD...let me guess God?.... if yes, it still boils down to the same question.. why must it be by blood, why couldnt he just pardon and grant remission

johnydon22:


ok now let us judge from what you said here... remind me again WHO MADE THOSE PROTOCOLS, WHO MADE THOSE PROTOCOL THAT REMISSION MUST BE BY BLOOD...let me guess God?.... if yes, it still boils down to the same question.. why must it be by blood, why couldnt he just pardon and grant remission

What you are saying is that sin should not have a consequence. Man should be allowed to sin, be forgiven and remitted.

You see, God dwells in eternity, and judges from the perspective of a big picture that we cannot even begin to try to comprehend.

All this questions of Why did God make it possible for man to be able to sin? Why did God let sin have consequence? Why did he make blood the tool of remission?

They consist in the wisdom of a bigger picture those who dwell in the circumference of time can't piece together jusy yet.

To say whatever we can't rational about God must either be untrue or a sham, will keep us in unbelief. Because of the picture size our mind can piece together.

ayoku777:


What you are saying is that sin should not have a consequence. Man should be allowed to sin, be forgiven and remitted.

You see, God dwells in eternity, and judges from the perspective of a big picture that we cannot even begin to try to comprehend.

All this questions of Why did God make it possible for man to be able to sin? Why did God let sin have consequence? Why did he make blood the tool of remission?

They consist in the wisdom of a bigger picture those who dwell in the circumference of time can't piece together jusy yet.

To say whatever we can't rational about God must either be untrue or a sham, will keep us in unbelief. Because of the picture size our mind can piece together.

lmao... is it not the case now? christians be like "jesus died for our sins and if we sin and beg den we are forgiven" ... still same thing. why must God murder his son so that he can be able to forgive mankind... a simple question.
(i.e: he is all loving, all good, all merciful and all powerful)

Why did He make sin require remission? Why shouldn't a simple "I forgive you" be enough? Why did he make blood the tool of remission? Why not water or sweat? Why must that blood be shed on a cross? Why can't it be shed on a comfortable bed? Why this? Why that?

You might as well ask? Why did Microsoft call itself that? Why not Softmicro? Why didn't Apple Corp call itself Melon Corp?

Why do we have to press "Control V" to paste? Why don't we just have a "paste" button on the keyboard? Why is the space bar so long? Why are the Keyboards not arrange alphabetically? Why this? Why that?

I think a creator should be allowed to determine his protocol and have His reasons (from a big picture we may not immediately understand, much less appreciate).

Especially if we can trust He loves us and has our good at heart

If you don't believe in the book He uses to show us those protocols and rationalize some of those reasons to us. Then I can't fully help you.