vooks:
Thank you my broda,
My reason for asking is because in both NT and OT, a person who prophesies is called a prophet. Look at these verses;
[b]1 Cor 14:23-33 (KJV)
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? 24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.[/b]
So while one who prophesies is called a prophet, am yet to see one prophesying not being deemed a prophet.
To me, the office of the prophet is romanticized,idealized and ultimately it elevates the gift to more than is warranted
I just can't see the distinction between the 'gift' and 'office'

I think the distinction is not between one who prophesies and a prophet, but about the gift of prophecy and the work of a prophet. Paul says in Corinthians that the gift of prophecy is for comfort, exhortation and edification. Nothing there says anything about foretelling, which is what a prophet does. And a prophet can tell the future in a manner that does not comfort, exhort or edify. E.g. Agabus' prophecy about Paul going to Jerusalem. Thus one who comforts, exhorts or edifies may be exercising the gift of prophecy, but it doesn't make that one a prophet, until such a person can also see into the supernatural and tell what exists there.

When you look at Paul shipwrecked telling them that they will survive but the ship will be lost, I'd say that's foretelling and comforting at the same time. So foretelling and 'comfort,exhortation and edification' are not mutually exclusive.

We see Paul equating the one prophesying to a prophet. Do we have precedents in the OT?


Numbers 11:27-29 King James Version (KJV)
27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord'S people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!
So a prophesying person is a prophet. Philip's daughters prophesied, they were prophets

nlMediator:


I think the distinction is not between one who prophesies and a prophet, but about the gift of prophecy and the work of a prophet. Paul says in Corinthians that the gift of prophecy is for comfort, exhortation and edification. Nothing there says anything about foretelling, which is what a prophet does. And a prophet can tell the future in a manner that does not comfort, exhort or edify. E.g. Agabus' prophecy about Paul going to Jerusalem. Thus one who comforts, exhorts or edifies may be exercising the gift of prophecy, but it doesn't make that one a prophet, until such a person can also see into the supernatural and tell what exists there.

vooks:
When you look at Paul shipwrecked telling them that they will survive but the ship will be lost, I'd say that's foretelling and comforting at the same time. So foretelling and 'comfort,exhortation and edification' are not mutually exclusive.

We see Paul equating the one prophesying to a prophet. Do we have precedents in the OT?


Numbers 11:27-29 King James Version (KJV)
27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord'S people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!
So a prophesying person is a prophet. Philip's daughters prophesied, they were prophets

You are contradicting yourself . Now, let's make it plain! What are your core points above?

1. In the scriptures, there is no distinction between the 'office' of a prophet and the 'gift' of prophecy
2. In the scriptures, one exercising the 'gift' of prophecy is regarded as a prophet
3. You don't have people prophesying not regarded as prophets

Gombs:


You are contradicting yourself . Now, let's make it plain! What are your core points above?

vooks:
When you look at Paul shipwrecked telling them that they will survive but the ship will be lost, I'd say that's foretelling and comforting at the same time. So foretelling and 'comfort,exhortation and edification' are not mutually exclusive.
We see Paul equating the one prophesying to a prophet. Do we have precedents in the OT?
Numbers 11:27-29 King James Version (KJV)
27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord'S people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!
So a prophesying person is a prophet. Philip's daughters prophesied, they were prophets

I never said they were mutually exclusive. I said they don't always go together. Now tell me where the comfort, exhortation or edification is in Agabus prophecy about Paul going to Jerusalem. Or Elijah telling Ahab that it would not rain for 3 and half years? Or Elisha telling Ahab and Jehoshephat that they would lose the battle the following day? These contradict the definition of the gift of prophecy as given by Paul. That means one can prophesy when prophesying has nothing to with the parameters of the gift of prophecy, I.e. Comfort, exhort, edify. The converse is also true: one can comfort, edify or exhort without doing what a prophet traditionally does, which is see into the supernatural. It's not enough to say that they jive sometimes. They have to jive all the time for Paul's definition to make sense.

vooks:
1. In the scriptures, there is no distinction between the 'office' of a prophet and the 'gift' of prophecy
2. In the scriptures, one exercising the 'gift' of prophecy is regarded as a prophet
3. You don't have people prophesying not regarded as prophets

Incorrect. Paul never said the person that has the gift of prophecy in Corinthians is a prophet. Nor did he ever say that prophets always comfort, exhort or edify. But he said so of the gift of prophecy. Either Paul is contradicting himself or we have to take him at his word.

Where does Paul say 'Comfort, exhort, edify' is what gift of prophecy does? Just asking not disputing

nlMediator:


I never said they were mutually exclusive. I said they don't always go together. Now tell me where the comfort, exhortation or edification is in Agabus prophecy about Paul going to Jerusalem. Or Elijah telling Ahab that it would not rain for 3 and half years? Or Elisha telling Ahab and Jehoshephat that they would lose the battle the following day? These contradict the definition of the gift of prophecy as given by Paul. That means one can prophesy when prophesying has nothing to with the parameters of the gift of prophecy, I.e. Comfort, exhort, edify. The converse is also true: one can comfort, edify or exhort without doing what a prophet traditionally does, which is see into the supernatural. It's not enough to say that they jive sometimes. They have to jive all the time for Paul's definition to make sense.

You only need to read that passage again slowly. The prophet is one operating the gift of prophecy. The one operating the gift of prophecy is a prophet. So he starts with one and ends up with the other and vice versa

nlMediator:


Incorrect. Paul never said the person that has the gift of prophecy in Corinthians is a prophet. Nor did he ever say that prophets always comfort, exhort or edify. But he said so of the gift of prophecy. Either Paul is contradicting himself or we have to take him at his word.

vooks:
You only need to read that passage again slowly. The prophet is one operating the gift of prophecy. The one operating the gift of prophecy is a prophet. So he starts with one and ends up with the other and vice versa

All believers are not called into the prophetic office(Eph 4:11) but Paul encourage believers to desire spiritual gifts especially that of prophecy(1 cor 14:1). A believer can both forthtell and foretell but that doesn't automatically put him/her into the prophetic office. It takes time and tutelege before that honour is conferred by God to an individual.God doesn't appoint novices.Example is Saul who later became Paul. He was a teacher in Acts 13:1 before he was later separated from his company to be an apostle with Barnabas who also i believe to be a prophet.

Believers in general can function in the gift of prophecy even though there are boundaries to their ministry gift functions( Romans 12:6). It is God predetermined purpose that His people prophesy(Joel 2:28). Infact, it should be the natural ability of every Spirit-filled believer to prophesy( Acts 2:17-18). And that was why Paul exhibited this gift like the example you gave about the shipwreck even though he wasn't called into the prophetic office. The same Paul encourages the Church at thessalonica not to despise prophecies.

Though people make mistakes and abuse this gift. It is actually done by Faith. I remembered when i gave the prophecy concerning a woman about giving birth to a child, it just came by inspiration, i wanted to tell myself to shut up but i couldn't, the words came in tongues and i interpreted it. It was just a knowing in my spirit. I couldn't explain it. But that doesn't mean i am a prophet, neither did i go about prophesying to folks because i operated the gift that day. This is the error we should be careful and wary of. Some many "so called prophets" have done more damage than good to the body of Christ in this regard.

Bidam:
All believers are not called into the prophetic office(Eph 4:11) but Paul encourage believers to desire spiritual gifts especially that of prophecy(1 cor 14:1). A believer can both forthtell and foretell but that doesn't automatically put him/her into the prophetic office. It takes time and tutelege before that honour is conferred by God to an individual.God doesn't appoint novices.Example is Saul who later became Paul. He was a teacher in Acts 13:1 before he was later separated from his company to be an apostle with Barnabas who also i believe to be a prophet.

Excellent submission
Corrections
1. Saul did not become Saul, he was both Saul and Paul. One name was use among Gentiles, the other among Jews. That's how Jews named their kids

2. Who/where is it written that prophets need time and tutelage? You have just witnessed Spirit of the Living GOd come upon some people and they prophesied and Moses desires that everybody was a Prophet. Obviously they were prophets else that statement is illogical.


1 Samuel 19:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 And he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets?

Here, all it took was for Saul to prophesy to be regarded as a prophet

Believers in general can function in the gift of prophecy even though there are boundaries to their ministry gift functions( Romans 12:6). It is God predetermined purpose that His people prophesy(Joel 2:28). Infact, it should be the natural ability of every Spirit-filled believer to prophesy( Acts 2:17-18). And that was why Paul exhibited this gift like the example you gave about the shipwreck even though he wasn't called into the prophetic office. The same Paul encourages the Church at thessalonica not to despise prophecies.

I can agree that the boundaries to a gift are limited by God and also their level of faith. This may be explains why we had Minor/Major prophets denoting their jurisdiction ( I may be wrong). But you haven't explained the difference between the 'prophetic office' and gift of prophecy. I believe Paul was a Prophet. Who said one can only be either?

Though people make mistakes and abuse this gift. It is actually done by Faith. I remembered when i gave the prophecy concerning a woman about giving birth to a child, it just came by inspiration, i wanted to tell myself to shut up but i couldn't, the words came in tongues and i interpreted it. It was just a knowing in my spirit. I couldn't explain it. But that doesn't mean i am a prophet, neither did i go about prophesying to folks because i operated the gift that day. This is the error we should be careful and wary of. Some many "so called prophets" have done more damage than good to the body of Christ in this regard.

Even the so called prophets NT or OT don't ALWAYS have a ready word for everyone or every situation. Foretelling and forthtelling is not automatic even for prophets. This means somebody prophesying once does not disqualify them from being a prophet. If I said you had a word of knowledge and not prophecy, would I be wrong?
There is no clear definition of these gifts and sometimes I think we may innocently call one the other.

vooks:
1. In the scriptures, there is no distinction between the 'office' of a prophet and the 'gift' of prophecy
2. In the scriptures, one exercising the 'gift' of prophecy is regarded as a prophet
3. You don't have people prophesying not regarded as prophets

nlMediator:

Incorrect. Paul never said the person that has the gift of prophecy in Corinthians is a prophet. Nor did he ever say that prophets always comfort, exhort or edify. But he said so of the gift of prophecy. Either Paul is contradicting himself or we have to take him at his word.

The gift of prophecy is not the same as being a prophet. QED

Nlmediator has got this covered.

What's the difference?

Gombs:




The gift of prophecy is not the same as being a prophet. QED

Nlmediator has got this covered.

Bidam:
All believers are not called into the prophetic office(Eph 4:11) but Paul encourage believers to desire spiritual gifts especially that of prophecy(1 cor 14:1). A believer can both forthtell and foretell but that doesn't automatically put him/her into the prophetic office. It takes time and tutelege before that honour is conferred by God to an individual.God doesn't appoint novices.Example is Saul who later became Paul. He was a teacher in Acts 13:1 before he was later separated from his company to be an apostle with Barnabas who also i believe to be a prophet.

Believers in general can function in the gift of prophecy even though there are boundaries to their ministry gift functions( Romans 12:6). It is God predetermined purpose that His people prophesy(Joel 2:28). Infact, it should be the natural ability of every Spirit-filled believer to prophesy( Acts 2:17-18). And that was why Paul exhibited this gift like the example you gave about the shipwreck even though he wasn't called into the prophetic office. The same Paul encourages the Church at thessalonica not to despise prophecies.

Though people make mistakes and abuse this gift. It is actually done by Faith. I remembered when i gave the prophecy concerning a woman about giving birth to a child, it just came by inspiration, i wanted to tell myself to shut up but i couldn't, the words came in tongues and i interpreted it. It was just a knowing in my spirit. I couldn't explain it. But that doesn't mean i am a prophet, neither did i go about prophesying to folks because i operated the gift that day. This is the error we should be careful and wary of. Some many "so called prophets" have done more damage than good to the body of Christ in this regard.

Flesh and blood did not revealed this to you, but my Father in Heaven.

vooks:
What's the difference?

[size=20pt]PROPHECY IS A GIFT OF THE SPIRIT[/size]

1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

As a gift of the Spirit the operation of a gift of prophecy is to bring forth an inspired utterance. That is, the Holy Spirit reveals the heart of God through a thought, a vision, an audible voice, or an impression. Mba has named the purposed of the gift of prophecy.

[size=20pt]THE OFFICE OF PROPHET[/size]

The office of the prophet in the New Testament is one of the five fold ministries. It must be handled as seriously as one would approach being a pastor. It is a calling of God. It requires a time of divine preparation. It needs to be recognized by and in mutual submission to other five fold ministries. Lone Ranger prophet are false prophets.

Bidam has alreaddy explained further.

thanks

Scriptures please

Thanks
[size=4pt]

Gombs:


[size=4pt]PROPHECY IS A GIFT OF THE SPIRIT[/size]

1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

As a gift of the Spirit the operation of a gift of prophecy is to bring forth an inspired utterance. That is, the Holy Spirit reveals the heart of God through a thought, a vision, an audible voice, or an impression. Mba has named the purposed of the gift of prophecy.

[size=4pt]THE OFFICE OF PROPHET[/size]

The office of the prophet in the New Testament is one of the five fold ministries. It must be handled as seriously as one would approach being a pastor. It is a calling of God. It requires a time of divine preparation. It needs to be recognized by and in mutual submission to other five fold ministries. Lone Ranger prophet are false prophets.

Bidam has alreaddy explained further.

thanks

[/size]

vooks:

Excellent submission
Corrections
1. Saul did not become Saul, he was both Saul and Paul. One name was use among Gentiles, the other among Jews. That's how Jews named their kids

Ok.

2. Who/where is it written that prophets need time and tutelage? You have just witnessed Spirit of the Living GOd come upon some people and they prophesied and Moses desires that everybody was a Prophet. Obviously they were prophets else that statement is illogical.


1 Samuel 19:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 And he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets?

Here, all it took was for Saul to prophesy to be regarded as a prophet

Because Saul was able to prophesy doesn't make him a prophet neither did God confer that honour on him like Moses, David and the rest of them. And again we shouldn't confuse the OT prophets with the NT. The OT prophets pointed to Christ while the NT prophets functions to MATURE the saints so they can disciple the nations. The prophets guides and directs believers for purpose and destiny in Christ.

In the OT jeremiah has to undergo preparation and tutelage by God before he prophesied to Israel. Elisha received mentorship from Elijah for a while before he became a full fledged prophet of God. Amos was in his prime gathering sycamore fruits for a while before God called him to prophesy, it wasn't a one day thing you know. You have to go through a school of the Spirit. Even John the baptist who was the culmination of the OT prophets had to run to the wilderness before the time of his showing to Israel.

I can agree that the boundaries to a gift are limited by God and also their level of faith. This may be explains why we had Minor/Major prophets denoting their jurisdiction ( I may be wrong).

. The major and minor prophets was as regards to the volume of books they wrote but that doesn't make them major and minor either in the prophetic delivery of their words. It was Amos who was termed a minor prophets by theologians that said the Lord God does nothing except He reveals it to his servant the prophets. He alos prophesied the restoration of Israle and the coming of the messianic age, that is by no regard the words of a minor prophet(.Amos 9:11-15)

But you haven't explained the difference between the 'prophetic office' and gift of prophecy. I believe Paul was a Prophet. Who said one can only be either?

Sorry scripture never called Paul a prophet. He was an apostle, Paul could only prophesy, he wasn't operating under the office of a prophet.The primary objective of the Office of the Prophet must be to equip every believer for the work of ministry. Prophets
represent a foundational ministry in the Church, since they provide the framework of reference and patterns for accessing the mind of God. According to the Apostle James in James 5:10, the Prophet always spoke in the name of the Lord. They spoke as the substitute or representative of the Lord. They were the mouthpieces of God; therefore their behaviour had to conform to the character and purpose of God.

Even the so called prophets NT or OT don't ALWAYS have a ready word for everyone or every situation. Foretelling and forthtelling is not automatic even for prophets. This means somebody prophesying once does not disqualify them from being a prophet. If I said you had a word of knowledge and not prophecy, would I be wrong?

You do not call a word of knowledge a prophecy. Familiar spirits could also operate in this regard, because i could tell you the date of your birth and your house address and phone number using the word of knowledge doesn't mean i had prophesied to you. Words of wisdom can be a prophecy because it is actually foretelling a future occurrence which is yet to take place and this is the mark of a true prophet from a false one. The devil cannot tell you the future, only God can. Moses even made the distinction in Deuteronomy 18:22.

There is no clear definition of these gifts and sometimes I think we may innocently call one the other.

I read a book about understanding prophetic dimensions by Noel woodroffe, i think a friend of mine coveted the book. . Wish i could lay hold of it to expand the distinctions. Please if you could get a hold of the book it will solve some of your questions here.

vooks:
Scriptures please

Thanks
[size=4pt][/size]

i already provided them

Bidam:
Ok.

Because Saul was able to prophesy doesn't make him a prophet neither did God confer that honour on him like Moses, David and the rest of them. And again we shouldn't confuse the OT prophets with the NT. The OT prophets pointed to Christ while the NT prophets functions to MATURE the saints so they can disciple the nations. The prophets guides and directs believers for purpose and destiny in Christ.

If prophesying don't make paul a prophet,what does?
Back your answers with scriptures

In the OT jeremiah has to undergo preparation and tutelage by God before he prophesied to Israel. Elisha received mentorship from Elijah for a while before he became a full fledged prophet of God. Amos was in his prime gathering sycamore fruits for a while before God called him to prophesy, it wasn't a one day thing you know. You have to go through a school of the Spirit. Even John the baptist who was the culmination of the OT prophets had to run to the wilderness before the time of his showing to Israel.

What preparation and tutelage did Agabus go through?
Scriptures please

. The major and minor prophets was as regards to the volume of books they wrote but that doesn't make them major and minor either in the prophetic delivery of their words. It was Amos who was termed a minor prophets by theologians that said the Lord God does nothing except He reveals it to his servant the prophets. He alos prophesied the restoration of Israle and the coming of the messianic age, that is by no regard the words of a minor prophet(.Amos 9:11-15)

Thank you, I suspected was out of depth in major vs minor prophets thing. Thanks again

Sorry scripture never called Paul a prophet. He was an apostle, Paul could only prophesy, he wasn't operating under the office of a prophet.The primary objective of the Office of the Prophet must be to equip every believer for the work of ministry. Prophets
represent a foundational ministry in the Church, since they provide the framework of reference and patterns for accessing the mind of God. According to the Apostle James in James 5:10, the Prophet always spoke in the name of the Lord. They spoke as the substitute or representative of the Lord. They were the mouthpieces of God; therefore their behaviour had to conform to the character and purpose of God.

Was Paul a teacher/pastor/evangelist?
Does the scripture ever call him thus?

You do not call a word of knowledge a prophecy. Familiar spirits could also operate in this regard, because i could tell you the date of your birth and your house address and phone number using the word of knowledge doesn't mean i had prophesied to you. Words of wisdom can be a prophecy because it is actually foretelling a future occurrence which is yet to take place and this is the mark of a true prophet from a false one. The devil cannot tell you the future, only God can. Moses even made the distinction in Deuteronomy 18:22.
I read a book about understanding prophetic dimensions by Noel woodroffe, i think a friend of mine coveted the book. . Wish i could lay hold of it to expand the distinctions. Please if you could get a hold of the book it will solve some of your questions here.

I will look for the book. You are a great resource bro. Thank you very much
Prophets also could tell things they could only know by the Spirit without foretelling. Elisha and Gehazi is a perfect example.


I want a Biblical distinction between 'office' and 'gift' of prophecy. I find none except we stick to extra-Biblical subjective definitions

Thank you.
You are the most resourceful person I ever met. God bless you

Shalom

Gombs:


i already provided them

vooks:
Thank you.
You are the most resourceful person I ever met. God bless you

Shalom

vooks:


If prophesying don't make paul a prophet,what does?
Back your answers with scriptures

Firstly Paul never called himself a prophet but an Apostle. His letters to the churches is a proof of that. Secondly Spiritual gifts doesn't confer you the office of a prophet, it is wrong to insinuate that. Gifting is not ministry. When God calls someone to the prophetic ministry he is empowered by God with doma gifts to accomplish that ministry. Ministry gifts isn't the same as spiritual gifts. Spiritual gifts is given to every believer but ministry gifts isn't for every one and that is why someone called into the prophetic office can operate the gift of prophecy under the unction of the Holy Spirit in a consistent manner like Agabus.

What preparation and tutelage did Agabus go through?
Scriptures please

You can arrive at such by deductive reasoning. The Holy Spirit was poured out in Acts 2.It will be foolhardy to think Agabus was not there at that point in time cos scripture records he came from Judea, Look at the time frame from ACTS 2 to ACTS 11 when he and other prophets of his kind came down from Jerusalem to Antioch.

Thank you, I suspected was out of depth in major vs minor prophets thing. Thanks again

Ok, you are welcome.

Was Paul a teacher/pastor/evangelist?
Does the scripture ever call him thus?

Paul was initially a teacher in Antioch.

Acts 13:1-3 (NLT).Among the prophets and teachers of the church at Antioch of Syria were Barnabas, Simeon (called “the black man”[a]), Lucius (from Cyrene), Manaen (the childhood companion of King Herod Antipas[b]), and Saul. 2 One day as these men were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Dedicate Barnabas and Saul for the special work to which I have called them.” 3 So after more fasting and prayer, the men laid their hands on them and sent them on their way.

I will look for the book. You are a great resource bro. Thank you very much
Prophets also could tell things they could only know by the Spirit without foretelling. Elisha and Gehazi is a perfect example.

The word of knowledge is not the exclusive preserve of a prophet. There was a day i was directed by the Holy Spirit to evangelize to an unsaved guy, in the middle of our discussion the Holy Spirit began to tell me things about the guys past, when i told the guy those things he was shocked and was wondering how i came to know about him so much. To cut a long story short he gave his life to Christ immediately.

I want a Biblical distinction between 'office' and 'gift' of prophecy. I find none except we stick to extra-Biblical subjective definitions

The office of the prophets have ministry gifts or doma gifts while gifts of prophecy is one of the spiritual gifts that all believers can operate in.

Bidam:
Firstly Paul never called himself a prophet but an Apostle. His letters to the churches is a proof of that. Secondly Spiritual gifts doesn't confer you the office of a prophet, it is wrong to insinuate that. Gifting is not ministry. When God calls someone to the prophetic ministry he is empowered by God with doma gifts to accomplish that ministry. Ministry gifts isn't the same as spiritual gifts. Spiritual gifts is given to every believer but ministry gifts isn't for every one and that is why someone called into the prophetic office can operate the gift of prophecy under the unction of the Holy Spirit in a consistent manner like Agabus.

What is the difference between ministry gift and spiritual gift? Is apostleship a gift of any sort?

You can arrive at such by deductive reasoning. The Holy Spirit was poured out in Acts 2.It will be foolhardy to think Agabus was not there at that point in time cos scripture records he came from Judea, Look at the time frame from ACTS 2 to ACTS 11 when he and other prophets of his kind came down from Jerusalem to Antioch.

Time had passed between Pentecost and Agabus prophecies so I can't rule out tutelage but nothing of the same is mentioned. You are reading INTO the scriptures

Ok, you are welcome.

Paul was initially a teacher in Antioch.

Acts 13:1-3 (NLT).Among the prophets and teachers of the church at Antioch of Syria were Barnabas, Simeon (called “the black man”[a]), Lucius (from Cyrene), Manaen (the childhood companion of King Herod Antipas[b]), and Saul. 2 One day as these men were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Dedicate Barnabas and Saul for the special work to which I have called them.” 3 So after more fasting and prayer, the men laid their hands on them and sent them on their way.

Why would you insist he was a teacher and not a prophet initially? That is quite arbitrary of you don't you think? He could have been a prophet or teacher in Antioch.
In any case, how many years do you suppose had passed between Pentecost and Acts 13? What about Acts 11:27. Who taught these prophets what? We had prophets almost immediately after Pentecost

The word of knowledge is not the exclusive preserve of a prophet. There was a day i was directed by the Holy Spirit to evangelize to an unsaved guy, in the middle of our discussion the Holy Spirit began to tell me things about the guys past, when i told the guy those things he was shocked and was wondering how i came to know about him so much. To cut a long story short he gave his life to Christ immediately.

I can only say Amen to what Holy Spirit is doing through you

The office of the prophets have ministry gifts or doma gifts while gifts of prophecy is one of the spiritual gifts that all believers can operate in.

back this with scriptures please

vooks:


What is the difference between ministry gift and spiritual gift? Is apostleship a gift of any sort?

Paul talks about ministry gifts in writing to the Church at Ephesus. Paul said that when Jesus ascended on High, ". . . he led captivity captive, and gave GIFTS unto men" (Eph. 4:8.).
What were those gifts? Paul goes on to list them. They are ministry gifts Jesus set in the Church.
EPHESIANS 4:11,12
11 And he gave some, APOSTLES; and some, PROPHETS; and some, EVANGELISTS;
and some, PASTORS and TEACHERS;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the
body of Christ.

On spiritual gifts Paul list 9 of them.

1 CORINTHIANS 12:8-10
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the WORD OF WISDOM; to another the WORD OF
KNOWLEDGE by the same Spirit;
9 To another FAITH [special faith] by the same Spirit; to another the GIFTS OF HEALING
by the same Spirit;
10 To another the WORKING OF MIRACLES; to another PROPHECY; to another
DISCERNING OF SPIRITS; to another DIVERS KINDS OF TONGUES; to another the
INTERPRETATION OF TONGUES.

Time had passed between Pentecost and Agabus prophecies so I can't rule out tutelage but nothing of the same is mentioned. You are reading INTO the scriptures






Why would you insist he was a teacher and not a prophet initially? That is quite arbitrary of you don't you think? He could have been a prophet or teacher in Antioch.
In any case, how many years do you suppose had passed between Pentecost and Acts 13? What about Acts 11:27. Who taught these prophets what? We had prophets almost immediately after Pentecost

Paul or Saul was indicated last in that verse of scripture i quoted. The scripture listed The prophets first then the teachers. Paul couldn't have prophesied to himself to be separated or called for the special work to which the Holy Spirit called them. It is evident from that verse of scripture that Paul wasn't the one that prophesied so we can safely conclude he was a teacher.As for Agabus you are entitled to your opinions since little is given about him from scripture.

I can only say Amen to what Holy Spirit is doing through you


back this with scriptures please

Already did. In addition, in First Corinthians 12:28, Paul is also listing ministry gifts, but he lists them in a little different way.
1 CORINTHIANS 12:28
28 And God hath set some in the church, first APOSTLES, secondarily PROPHETS,
thirdly TEACHERS, after that MIRACLES, then GIFTS OF HEALINGS, HELPS,
GOVERNMENTS, DIVERSITIES OF TONGUES.

vooks:
Where does Paul say 'Comfort, exhort, edify' is what gift of prophecy does? Just asking not disputing

In I Cor. 14:3, Paul said that “he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.” But we know this is not true when it comes to the work of a prophet. Prophets say hard things that don’t necessarily comfort, edify or exhort. Perhaps, in MOST cases they do not. So, Paul must be referring to something else here when he mentions this gift.

And that’s because the gift of prophecy is for forth telling, not foretelling. The gifts of the spirit that deal with fore telling and seeing into the supernatural are Word of Wisdom, Word of Knowledge and Discerning of Spirits. Reading the gift of prophecy as referring to the kind of foretelling that a prophet does renders some of the other gifts meaningless, especially Word of Wisdom. In other words, how is prophecy that foretells different from Word of Wisdom?

Nevertheless, a prophet may also prophesy in the sense of bringing words that comfort, exhort or edify. But to be a prophet, he would also need other gifts in operation like the Word of Wisdom, i.e. revelation gifts. In I Cor. 14: 29& 30, Paul talks about prophets and revelation: “if anything be revealed . . . .” He didn’t say that with the gift of prophecy.

On the other hand, gift of prophecy is compared to tongues and interpretation of tongues. In I Cor. 14:1, 5 & 39, we see the comparison. Nobody would argue that when people speak in tongues and interpret in church or even at home, they’re necessarily revealing anything. Usually, it’s an inspired utterance to build up the church or help people that need uplifting. That’s what the gift of prophecy does, only that it does it in plain speech instead of tongues that need interpretation.

I also agree with the point already made earlier that the exercise of a spiritual gift does not mean that you’re called into an office. What makes the difference, I believe, is not training to be a prophet or teacher etc. but the consistency of the operation. That is, God can use anybody to heal but that does not mean that that person has the gift of healing. And God can use anybody in the area of gifts of healing, but that does not mean that person is a healing evangelist. Occasional or periodic manifestation is what distinguishes those not in the office from those in the office.

For instance in 1 Cor. 14:1, Paul tells the Christians in Corinth to covet spiritual gifts and to prophesy. But earlier in I Cor. 12:28, he makes clear that not all is called into the office of prophet, a point he emphasizes again in Eph. 4. If not all are called into the office of prophet, why tell ALL to desire to prophesy, knowing that prophesying would make them ALL prophets? That does not make much sense. What Paul obviously meant was that prophesying would not make you a prophet, nor would exercise of any of the spiritual gifts he asked you to covet. The spiritual gifts will serve the church through the believer, but it does not mean that the believer is at the level of ministry gifts.

Now, that does not mean that training can be discounted. Au contraire, it is very important to help the people called into an office to sharpen their skills and conduct themselves properly for greater effectiveness. But even without and before the training, the person is still called to that office.

^^
Very apt.

vooks:
[size=5pt]Excellent submission
Corrections
1. Saul did not become Saul, he was both Saul and Paul. One name was use among Gentiles, the other among Jews. That's how Jews named their kids
[/size]
2. Who/where is it written that prophets need time and tutelage? [size=5pt]
You have just witnessed Spirit of the Living GOd come upon some people and they prophesied and Moses desires that everybody was a Prophet. Obviously they were prophets else that statement is illogical.


1 Samuel 19:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 And he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets?

Here, all it took was for Saul to prophesy to be regarded as a prophet


I can agree that the boundaries to a gift are limited by God and also their level of faith. This may be explains why we had Minor/Major prophets denoting their jurisdiction ( I may be wrong). But you haven't explained the difference between the 'prophetic office' and gift of prophecy. I believe Paul was a Prophet. Who said one can only be either?


Even the so called prophets NT or OT don't ALWAYS have a ready word for everyone or every situation. Foretelling and forthtelling is not automatic even for prophets. This means somebody prophesying once does not disqualify them from being a prophet. If I said you had a word of knowledge and not prophecy, would I be wrong?
There is no clear definition of these gifts and sometimes I think we may innocently call one the other.[/size]

vooks please explain the bold? What was the question about? What were you getting at or against?
Are you saying that prophets were never under tutelage in the bible?
If yes, were you then asking who they were (i.e. the prophets under tutelage) and asking where in the bible, were the prophets under tutelage?

nlMediator:


In I Cor. 14:3, Paul said that “he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.” But we know this is not true when it comes to the work of a prophet. Prophets say hard things that don’t necessarily comfort, edify or exhort. Perhaps, in MOST cases they do not. So, Paul must be referring to something else here when he mentions this gift.

1 Cor 14:24 (KJV)
But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
This is one verse where prophesying neither edifices,exhorts nor comforts. So to limit 'gift' of prophecy to those is wrong.
Verse 22 tells us prophecy is NOT for unbelievers yet in this verse we see the gift working wonderfully in a non-believer. I'd not be too rigid when it comes to gifts.

And that’s because the gift of prophecy is for forth telling, not foretelling. The gifts of the spirit that deal with fore telling and seeing into the supernatural are Word of Wisdom, Word of Knowledge and Discerning of Spirits. Reading the gift of prophecy as referring to the kind of foretelling that a prophet does renders some of the other gifts meaningless, especially Word of Wisdom. In other words, how is prophecy that foretells different from Word of Wisdom?

It takes maturity to admit that we have scanty information on the exact nature of spiritual gifts or at least most of them. You have no working definition of Wisdom or Knowledge so you can't subjectively define them and insist that your other subjective definition of prophecy would contradict these.

Nevertheless, a prophet may also prophesy in the sense of bringing words that comfort, exhort or edify. But to be a prophet, he would also need other gifts in operation like the Word of Wisdom, i.e. revelation gifts. In I Cor. 14: 29& 30, Paul talks about prophets and revelation: “if anything be revealed . . . .” He didn’t say that with the gift of prophecy.

I would say you are splitting hairs here. Paul in 1 Cor 14 makes no distinction between prophets and prophesying. If you were any honest and you removed biases, how can somebody talking of evangelism and evangelists in the same breath or teaching and teachers be talking about different things?
1 Corinthians 14:30-32 (KJV)
If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets
Why remind us that the spirit of the prophets are subject to the prophets? Those prophesying are called prophets or reminded that prophets don't 'lose it'. This only makes sense because the prophesying brethren are prophets themselves.

On the other hand, gift of prophecy is compared to tongues and interpretation of tongues. In I Cor. 14:1, 5 & 39, we see the comparison. Nobody would argue that when people speak in tongues and interpret in church or even at home, they’re necessarily revealing anything. Usually, it’s an inspired utterance to build up the church or help people that need uplifting. That’s what the gift of prophecy does, only that it does it in plain speech instead of tongues that need interpretation.

I half agree. Prophets too do not necessarily reveal things.

I also agree with the point already made earlier that the exercise of a spiritual gift does not mean that you’re called into an office. What makes the difference, I believe, is not training to be a prophet or teacher etc. but the consistency of the operation. That is, God can use anybody to heal but that does not mean that that person has the gift of healing. And God can use anybody in the area of gifts of healing, but that does not mean that person is a healing evangelist. Occasional or periodic manifestation is what distinguishes those not in the office from those in the office.

This is where we inject subjectivity. How often should one prophesy to be called a prophet? What is the office of apostle? How much of those roles do you need to qualify as an apostle?
BTW, I don't buy Hagin's theory of 'foundational' apostles versus others I don't recall their designation.

For instance in 1 Cor. 14:1, Paul tells the Christians in Corinth to covet spiritual gifts and to prophesy. But earlier in I Cor. 12:28, he makes clear that not all is called into the office of prophet, a point he emphasizes again in Eph. 4. If not all are called into the office of prophet, why tell ALL to desire to prophesy, knowing that prophesying would make them ALL prophets? That does not make much sense. What Paul obviously meant was that prophesying would not make you a prophet, nor would exercise of any of the spiritual gifts he asked you to covet. The spiritual gifts will serve the church through the believer, but it does not mean that the believer is at the level of ministry gifts.

Now, that does not mean that training can be discounted. Au contraire, it is very important to help the people called into an office to sharpen their skills and conduct themselves properly for greater effectiveness. But even without and before the training, the person is still called to that office.

You raise a very important point. Let's break it down
1. Not all are called into prophets
2. All are exhorted to covet prophesying

CONCLUSION
If prophesying makes one a prophet, Paul is contradicting himself since not all are called into the 'office' of prophecy

But there is another explanation. Not all receive the gift of prophecy initially. Whatever you start with, ernestly desire 'higher' gifts you never had to start with.This is not absurd. He says those speaking in tongues should pray that they may interpret meaning they were not interpreting initially or were not called into the 'office' of interpreting tongues.

BBG,
I fully understand schools of prophets in the OT, I don't find that in the NT. Believers were baptized with the Holy Spirit and they prophesied right away. There is evidence that prophets were in the church at the earliest ruling out training and tutelage in the NT

BabaGnoni:


vooks please explain the bold? What was the question about? What were you getting at or against?
Are you saying that prophets were never under tutelage in the bible?
If yes, were you then asking who they were (i.e. the prophets under tutelage) and asking where in the bible, were the prophets under tutelage?

vooks:
BBG,
I fully understand schools of prophets in the OT, I don't find that in the NT.
Believers were baptized with the Holy Spirit and they prophesied right away.
There is evidence that prophets were in the church at the earliest ruling out training and tutelage in the NT

Oh, what a relief, as I thought as much you'll be aware of the schools of prophets, but didn't want to jump the gun
a bit of digression, funny isnt it we had schools of prophets in the bible but not schools of healing or healing schools

Back on track, OT Saul was anointed, and he prophesied right away (i.e. similar to what you alluded to that believers were baptized with the Holy Spirit and they prophesied right away)

I still maintain that, just because one cooks (i.e. prepares and cooks meals), it doesn't necessarily make one a chef (i.e. one doesn't put on the tag, title chef or take on the position or chef status)
- one may display the attributes of a chef but one doesn't necessarily assume the office or take on the title

Also though I didn't earlier read nlMediator's submission on the subject matter thoroughly, as I skimmed through his submission
I can now state that I subscribe and endorse 110% the submission

"And that’s because the gift of prophecy is for forth telling, not foretelling.
The gifts of the spirit that deal with fore telling and seeing into the supernatural are Word of Wisdom, Word of Knowledge and Discerning of Spirits.
Reading the gift of prophecy as referring to the kind of foretelling that a prophet does renders some of the other gifts meaningless, especially Word of Wisdom. In other words, how is prophecy that foretells different from Word of Wisdom?"
- © nlMediator


HELPS Word-studies
4394 prophēteía (from 4396 /prophḗtēs, "prophet," which is derived from 4253 /pró, "before" and 5346 /phēmí, "make clear, assert as a priority'') – properly, what is clarified beforehand; prophecy which involves divinely-empowered forthtelling (asserting the mind of God) or foretelling (prediction).
http://biblehub.com/greek/4394.htm

Has to be said, christmas came early for this one, as nlMediator had this one in wraps

Look at what you are saying about Paul,why he couldn't have been a prophet but was a teacher. You are out on a limb.
Verse 1 makes it clear that the prophets and teachers included among them Saul. We are not told what Paul was of the two. All of them were fasting and praying and Holy Spirit spoke. It is obvious He never used Paul nor Barnabas. Two questions;
1. Is what Holy Spirit did prophecy?
2. Can a prophet receive prophecy from another prophet?

You ASSUME these answers to these; 1. Yes and 2. No
Only then can Paul be disqualified from being a prophet.

The order in which those names appear is IRRELEVANT unless you can prove otherwise.

Once again, offices vs gifts is largely a matter of creativity than scriptures.
The three portions of scriptures you shared are not identical yet you would insist they are exhaustive. What is the difference between 'ministry' and 'spiritual' gift?

1. Diversity of tongues appears among your spiritual gifts of 1 Cor 12:8- 10, as well as verse 28 among ministry gifts.
2. Evangelists are missing in verse 28 but are in Ephesians.

I grew up in faith learning about the so called five-fold ministries. In fact it is almost heretical to dispute this. But is there anything like FIVE ministries?

Bidam:
Paul talks about ministry gifts in writing to the Church at Ephesus. Paul said that when Jesus ascended on High, ". . . he led captivity captive, and gave GIFTS unto men" (Eph. 4:8.).
What were those gifts? Paul goes on to list them. They are ministry gifts Jesus set in the Church.
EPHESIANS 4:11,12
11 And he gave some, APOSTLES; and some, PROPHETS; and some, EVANGELISTS;
and some, PASTORS and TEACHERS;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the
body of Christ.

On spiritual gifts Paul list 9 of them.

1 CORINTHIANS 12:8-10
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the WORD OF WISDOM; to another the WORD OF
KNOWLEDGE by the same Spirit;
9 To another FAITH [special faith] by the same Spirit; to another the GIFTS OF HEALING
by the same Spirit;
10 To another the WORKING OF MIRACLES; to another PROPHECY; to another
DISCERNING OF SPIRITS; to another DIVERS KINDS OF TONGUES; to another the
INTERPRETATION OF TONGUES.


Paul or Saul was indicated last in that verse of scripture i quoted. The scripture listed The prophets first then the teachers. Paul couldn't have prophesied to himself to be separated or called for the special work to which the Holy Spirit called them. It is evident from that verse of scripture that Paul wasn't the one that prophesied so we can safely conclude he was a teacher.As for Agabus you are entitled to your opinions since little is given about him from scripture.



Already did. In addition, in First Corinthians 12:28, Paul is also listing ministry gifts, but he lists them in a little different way.
1 CORINTHIANS 12:28
28 And God hath set some in the church, first APOSTLES, secondarily PROPHETS,
thirdly TEACHERS, after that MIRACLES, then GIFTS OF HEALINGS, HELPS,
GOVERNMENTS, DIVERSITIES OF TONGUES.

BBG,
They have healing schools because we have more diseases than then. That's just me

I like your analogy. Very intuitive, but in the scriptures, we have three clear examples of people who prophesies being called prophets. Please allow me to stick to scriptures.

Any guessed definition you give for Wisdom and Knowledge is as good as mine. Holy Spirit just left us with little to nothing clearly distinguish these wonderful gifts. That's why your subjective guesses for the two can't objectively determine what gift of prophecy is or is not.

Forthtelling vs Foretelling. These are LARGELY reformation lingo especially forthtelling,probably Calvin. I need to try and dig deeper into its roots though. Give me an example of forthtelling in NT

BabaGnoni:

Oh, what a relief, as I thought as much you'll be aware of the schools of prophets, but didn't want to jump the gun
a bit of digression, funny isnt it we had schools of prophets in the bible but not schools of healing or healing schools

Back on track, OT Saul was anointed, and he prophesied right away (i.e. similar to what you alluded to that believers were baptized with the Holy Spirit and they prophesied right away)

I still maintain that, just because one cooks (i.e. prepares and cooks meals), it doesn't necessarily make one a chef (i.e. one doesn't put on the tag, title chef or take on the position or chef status)
- one may display the attributes of a chef but one doesn't necessarily assume the office or take on the title

Also though I didn't earlier read nlMediator's submission on the subject matter thoroughly, as I skimmed through his submission
I can now state that I subscribe and endorse 110% the submission

"And that’s because the gift of prophecy is for forth telling, not foretelling.
The gifts of the spirit that deal with fore telling and seeing into the supernatural are Word of Wisdom, Word of Knowledge and Discerning of Spirits.
Reading the gift of prophecy as referring to the kind of foretelling that a prophet does renders some of the other gifts meaningless, especially Word of Wisdom. In other words, how is prophecy that foretells different from Word of Wisdom?"
- © nlMediator


HELPS Word-studies
4394 prophēteía (from 4396 /prophḗtēs, "prophet," which is derived from 4253 /pró, "before" and 5346 /phēmí, "make clear, assert as a priority'') – properly, what is clarified beforehand; prophecy which involves divinely-empowered forthtelling (asserting the mind of God) or foretelling (prediction).
http://biblehub.com/greek/4394.htm

Has to be said, christmas came early for this one, as nlMediator had this one in wraps

vooks:
BBG,
They have healing schools because we have more diseases than then. That's just me

I like your analogy. Very intuitive, but in the scriptures, we have three clear examples of people who prophesies being called prophets. Please allow me to stick to scriptures.

Any guessed definition you give for Wisdom and Knowledge is as good as mine. Holy Spirit just left us with little to nothing clearly distinguish these wonderful gifts. That's why your subjective guesses for the two can't objectively determine what gift of prophecy is or is not.

Forthtelling vs Foretelling. These are LARGELY reformation lingo especially forthtelling, probably Calvin.
I need to try and dig deeper into its roots though.
Give me an example of forthtelling in NT

Wisecrack. Didn't know vooks had a funny bone LOL

Tall order, however Agabus is probably the last Bible recorded foretelling prophet (i.e. dont quote me on that and I dont want any NL police on my back either LOL)

nlMediator has said it all, there's no point reinventing the wheel here. Foretelling prophecy has gone past it's "Use by" date, essentially forthtelling prophecy is what has replaced it

Forthtelling prophecy, as a gift, is something to desire and to be used exclusively for the benefit and building up of the body of Christ
Forthtelling prophecy, essentially is speaking the mind of God, as it is used for speaking out words of encouragement, instructions & rebuke to God's people for them to repent and/or return to God

Notice the decline of foretelling prophecy in the Bible and it's break-up and/or transition to forthtelling prophecy, word of wisdom or word of knowledge

Personally, I think love is supreme, as it encompasses all these gifts, furthermore all these gifts, prophecy, speaking in tongues etcetera will fade and pass away except love