PastorAIO:

joseph1013:
I have been on this journey for a while now and I can say that I have come to a stage where I can sufficiently say that [size=14pt]I am longer[/size] a Christian or a religionist. I do not conclusively deny the existence of God, but I can totally say that nobody has given me a convincing evidence for the existence of the Abrahamic God.

joseph1013:
One of my primary reasons for having this page is self-serving: [size=14pt]I do not relish knowing that others consider me to be on the road to eternal damnation if I don't repent[/size], and I want to do what I can to change their perception of those of us who do not share their faith. Yet is this self-serving endeavor reckless? If I believed it would worsen the lives of all those who follow my rants and questions, then yes, it would be reckless. But I am convinced that life can actually improve for those who come to understand that our earthly existence is not simply a stage, a cosmic morality play, a precursor to an eternity to come. This life is the real (and only) deal.

PastorAIO:




Haba!! How all of una go see elephant inside room and you nor go talk?

If there was no law then and subsequently no sin, then by what did God judge Cain for murder? Abi Murder no go be violation of any law wey no exist.

Au contraire there was already Sin back then as Genesis 4 tells us:
6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

ooman:


Ok, So I can now become a Christian and start embezzling company and country money, kill people and take their properties since I will not be judged right?

I now see why there is evil and corruption in the world even though most people are religious. Its because like you, they believe they will not be judged only if they believe. smh

joseph1013:


Hey buddy, there is no need to punctuate your comments with such statements as 'You are free to choose to love God or hate him, it your choice'. Of course it is my choice and it came by virtue of some really rigorous search.

So back to our discourse. Since there is no law to cause sin, what is the basis for the punishment melted out on Cain in the first instance? Why was Cain punished for what he was not warned about?

One of the things I have noticed about the religious is their tendency to resort to extra-biblical explanations and interpretations. Saying I don't know is often a problem for them. And that is exactly the reason why there are so many sects and denominations in all versions of religions.

You have to ask yourself: why does an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful God leave his children in this constant confusion that has led men into wars and witch-hunts where tens of millions have been killed.

PastorAIO:


You're shifting ground and that is nothing new to religionists. We started off asking how you know your religion is true. You said it's like asking how we know E=mc squared.

I subsequently explained to you with ease how and why I believe E=mc squared. You then shifted and started asking for scientific proof even going into a deep one about scientists not repeating experiments. Nobody is questioning the validity of scientific opinions here. I am only demonstrating that it is very easy for me to lay out why I believe that e=mcsquared. Perhaps you believe that my belief is wrong, that is totally besides the point. The point is that the reasons for my belief are easily laid out. you might not agree... oh, but you do agree... but you dismiss it as hearsay. Good.

I admit that it is just hearsay and it doesn't amount to rigorous proof. Will you admit that your hearsay of muslims seeing paradise before they die is no reason to believe the Koran?

Let me summarise. Nobody asked you for proofs. You asked to explain why you believe something.

Abuamam:

However, briefly, my beliefs are predicated on a cause and effect principle, a belief in a real reason for existence other than as a medium for passing on mutated DNA, and a belief that our actions have too much effects to go unrewarded or unpunished... one way or the other. Also, the fact is that I have found after much research that Islam gives ME a more credible explanation than non muslim sources...

joseph1013:


For the religionist, it's an unending cycle of shifting grounds. It's difficult to be intellectually honest without being open-minded and contending with the fact that one may have been lied to all of one's life.

Abuamam:



I have found out that people often filter out what they do not anticipate. They hear but don't really listen. I have explained why I believe in an earlier comment as follows:



As for muslims seeing visions of paradise, I merely quoted it to explain to you how silly hearsay evidence sounds to a non believer in the topic discussed. I have heard that some muslims do see such visions, but it does not in any way influence my belief in the existence of a Deity. The above concepts do.

malvisguy212:
all of these events
happened before the law was given. According to the
Apostle Paul, when there is no law, [b]there can be no
violation of the law or sin. [/b]So, since the law against
incest was not given until thousands of years later,
there was no theological problem with Cain marrying his sister.

malvisguy212:
are you an atheist? All of the event happen before law was giving(jewish law) the fact that the law was not giving yet dos not mean God will not punish you for sin.

PastorAIO:




Your two quotes there contradict each other. Is there sin or not? Is there violation of Law or not? If there is no sin then what is the basis of God's punishment?

I'm not an atheist, although I find that when a theist finds that I'm not in agreement with him the response is often to dismiss as an atheist.

joseph1013:


You're shifting ground and that is nothing new to religionists. We started off with what happened with people who are dead but did not hear the gospel of Christ, you said they'd be judged by conscience. Conscience cannot be used because Jesus has supposedly provided a blueprint for salvation.

joseph1013:




And you'd be amazed at the billions of people in this world right now who do not know that there is something called Jesus. And according to the scriptures, how can they believe if they have not heard?

PastorAIO:


Thank you very mush. I was about to get unto that. in fact I was going to ask if people before the Law had consciences or not. If they did, then what is the conscience based on, the law? Or something else?

Personally I believe human beings are essentially moral creatures. Law or no law, we all have an inner moral compass. Those that know me on NL know that I have always mocked all these 'before the law, after the law' arguments.

malvisguy212:
ok,your argument is that the law apply to them (adam and his children)? Historical evidence prove the law was Not giving until thousand years later, so there would have been no prohibition against such marriages at that time
sorry for liken you to an atheist.there are sin God will not just let them live immoral life because the was not giving.

PastorAIO:


My argument is that we all have a moral compass regardless of religion. Religion gives us nothing when it comes to morality.

What do you mean by Sin? I was under the presumption that you would consider violating the Law to be a sin. Therefore in order to sin you would first have to have a law. That is why I'm drawing attention to the fact that Cain was warned about sin long before 'the law'.

joseph1013:
Hi friends, I don't even know if I can follow through with this and continue infinitely like I would love to do. I don't know. I only have a feeling that writing best captures what I have to say.

This page will be my questions and rant page.

I am not naive enough to expect that most who come to this page will abandon the faith they hold dear, but I do hope to
convince my readers that many of us who walk away have not done so out of a rebellious, juvenile whim, but rather
out of a careful weighing of the reasons for and against our former faith. Our decision, far from being "sad," as many of
my friends and family perceive it, represents a move from unquestioning acceptance of tradition to a spirit of
openness and adventure that pursues the evidence wherever it leads. We left in pursuit of truth.

A little about me: I grew up in a devoted Christian family loving the Lord. I was devoted and zealous. I was the 'dream' child. And because I was equally brilliant, parents pointed me as an example to their kids.

Of course as I grew up, I had questions. One of the earliest I remembered was asking how Cain had a wife if there were only thre people on earth (Abel having died). The answer my mum gave to that and many of the innocent questions of mine at a tender age was that I should make sure I get to heaven so that I could ask God myself. It didn't prove sufficient but what was a child to do otherwise.

I was a part of the school christian groups. I also remember being picked by the Children Church's teachers to preach to the entire Church congregation on Children sunday. It was awesome.

When I got to one of the foremost Federal Universities, I could not be more devoted. I was now into theological texts and got more than five translations of the Bible. I was a walking bible. Of course, there were no bible apps at that time. I consumed alot of religious materials, and read books by so many Christian authors. I also got into reading Islamic text, mainly so I could know what I was talking about when I encountered Muslim apologists, and I was very successful with them.

With time, I was made a Pastor of one of the most vibrant fellowships on Campus. We did not only study the Greek and Hebrew renditions, we know at heart copious parts of scriptures and could reel them out in our sleep. We were respected on Campus, at least by the Christian community. We would argue scriptures and ratte you with our knowledge of the redemptive work of Christ and the concept of the New Creature.

As an Engineering student, I spent 3 of my 5 years being a Pastor of this fellowship.

It was after my NYSC that I came across certain comments in books that made me look twice and search further to see if what I had believed and devoted my time to were indeed true.

I have been on this journey for a while now and I can say that I have come to a stage where I can sufficiently say that I am longer a Christian or a religionist. I do not conclusively deny the existence of God, but I can totally say that nobody has given me a convincing evidence for the existence of the Abrahamic God.

Some have told me that I am angry with God. That cannot be true, for you cannot get angry with something you are convinced does not exist in the context that I mentioned earlier. Some have said I believed wrongly, to these folks I say they know not what they sayeth.

I invite Christian readers to consider the possibility that my apostasy is a result not of divine or diabolical deception but of a simple weighing of the evidence ... It might be that I am wrong. It might be that I have not sought God sufficiently or studied the Bible thoroughly enough or listened carefully enough to the many Christians who have admonished me ... Maybe. But the knowledge that billions of seekers have lived and died, calling out to God for some definitive revelation without ever receiving it, or receiving revelation that conflicts with the revelation others have found, contributes to my suspicion that there is no personal God who reveals himself to anyone.

One of my primary reasons for having this page is self-serving: I do not relish knowing that others consider me to be on the road to eternal damnation if I don't repent, and I want to do what I can to change their perception of those of us who do not share their faith. Yet is this self-serving endeavor reckless? If I believed it would worsen the lives of all those who follow my rants and questions, then yes, it would be reckless. But I am convinced that life can actually improve for those who come to understand that our earthly existence is not simply a stage, a cosmic morality play, a precursor to an eternity to come. This life is the real (and only) deal.

Enjoy...

And hey, if you look at my Nairaland history, I do love Football alot and I'm an investment buff. I'm interested in Politics too (Sai Buhari!!!) and most of all, I love adventure. I love to travel and see new places. Who says atheists and agnostics have a boring life?

joseph1013:


Meaning that God allowed In.ce.st? According to the biblical scriptures, In.ce.st is forbidden.

“Never have sexual intercourse with anyone related to you by blood. I am the Lord." Leviticus 18:6 (God's Word Translation)

joseph1013:


Hey buddy, there is no need to punctuate your comments with such statements as 'You are free to choose to love God or hate him, it your choice'. Of course it is my choice and it came by virtue of some really rigorous search.

So back to our discourse. Since there is no law to cause sin, what is the basis for the punishment melted out on Cain in the first instance? Why was Cain punished for what he was not warned about?

One of the things I have noticed about the religious is their tendency to resort to extra-biblical explanations and interpretations. Saying I don't know is often a problem for them. And that is exactly the reason why there are so many sects and denominations in all versions of religions.

You have to ask yourself: why does an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful God leave his children in this constant confusion that has led men into wars and witch-hunts where tens of millions have been killed.

joseph1013:


You should have patiently read my opening post. There is no where I asked you to lose your faith. It's explained there. I only ask for you to be open-minded and let go of all pre-conceived notions. I do not claim to know all things and I dont and never will. However, while I am willing to admit to the fact that I dont know, religionists are not so comfortable with doing so. They resort to religious texts that has been proven to have no final authority.

Back to the response. If 900 years is not 90, who did Cain get married it to? And if in.ce.st can not be considered unholy at that time, then how can Cain be punished for what he did not know to be wrong, in this case the sacrifice?

Also, if you say that in.ce.st was not immoral for the generations before Leviticus because God hadn't said it was immoral. God had yet to relay to Moses his official rules, so because God hadn't put it in writing yet it didn't apply to Cain. Therefore, because God hadn't yet said it was wrong, Abraham, Lot and all the other pre-Leviticus patriarchs could engage in incestuous relations with impunity.

Question: why was Sodom and Gomorrah punished for their 'supposed' sexual perversions?

sinequanon:

I take that to be a typo. Presumably, you believe you are NO longer a Christian or religionist.

From early in your post, I was wondering what reason could be behind it (your post). I could understand how the attitude of your family towards your move away from Christianity may cause you to reason with them. But I could not understand why the attitude of Christians in general would be so important....

sinequanon:
Even people who call themselves atheists still find themselves appealing to theists. Many do it under the guise of educating the theists. But I believe it is actually doubt and denial of doubt that is causing them to seek a pretext for validation from the theists.

Leaving religion leaves a vacuum for most people. Some take refuge in materialism and science, but they are still in a transition phase, which is quite fragile.

malvisguy212:
knowledge of good and evil is there,where did abel get the kind heart to love God? Are cain and abel not brothers? what abel learn from adam cain learn it also, but he chose to kill his brother.you cannot conclude. Your research base only on the genesis creation,the genesis creation story is like a summery, the book of job,isaiah and many other book talk about the God creative power,example genesis never say God created water but the book of job say it.

God did not create this world to be perfect, He only called it good,evil must exist for someone like you to have two option to love God or hate Him,for more information read here https://www.nairaland.com/1995965/athiest-claim-god-existed-prayer

Abuamam:


I could be open minded and admit that I have been lied to all my life, except that no one lied to me. My beliefs are entirely the result of my own researches into the subject. I was once an atheist too.

honourhim:
How did i shift ground? I said those who died IN THE PAST without hearing about Christ will be judged according to their conscience which is the guide they had. How did they react when their conscience pricked them of an evil act? Then i quoted Acts 17 to buttress that the days of their ignorance(of Christ) were overlooked by God. Then i said in our time(which is the time of hi info tech) the gospel has spread far much wider than before. Hardly will peple claim they ve not heard of Christ.

honourhim:
I disagree with you that billions of people in the world right now dont know about Jesus. Not in these days of hi info tech. These are my points. However you can raise your disagreement and where you are right i will acknowledge.

malvisguy212:
the law has not yet made active, is no theological problem but GOD IS ALL KNOWING, God judge him however that was not the sin that lead to his judgment, he was a murderer. Thank you for your time. My battery is low.

IanDiamonds:


At the bolded, please tell us how you came about "Proving a Negative"

Thank God I quoted it so you can't deny the fact

honourhim:


The problem with some of you is that you read about God in the bible, summarize whom you think he is(which is not exactly what the bible records about him) and use your summary of him to judge him. It doesnt work that way.

Pls may i ask, what do you know about God as you read in the bible? Kindly answer if you are not going to be arrogant and abusive in this discussion. But if you will be, then ignore this post. Thanks.

joseph1013:


For every time you bring out this kind of explanation for god who cannot plainly provide it himself, you create many more room for doubt and confusion. So many holes!!! You cook up reasons for actions of people that are not stated in scriptures, and that brings problems.

Why did God reject Cain's sacrifice when there was no instruction otherwise? Since God is all-knowing and all-powerful, why did he reject the sacrifice when he knew that Cain would Abel?

God did not create a perfect world, but good and evil to give us choice, yet when we exercise that choice, he punishes us forever? Does that make sense to you?

philfearon:

Even when you are caught red handed in your lies,you keep building more unnecessary lies to cover it up...
I tire for this kind blindness ooo!!!

IanDiamonds:

The Law was not present then remember? The Law came during the time of moses.
An analogy would be using the court ruling against the publishing of the our Ex-president Olusegun Obasanjo's book "My Watch". The court ruled against the publishing of the book when the book had already been published. Hope you get the analogy.

IanDiamonds:


*red herring spotted* I see how you're tryin' to divert from the main issue here. The law of incest is what we're talkin' 'bout here. The scripture you quoted talked 'bout Incest and here you're talkin' 'bout murder. Make up your mind already.
@bolded if you had kept the same idea, you won't be askin' tis' questions today. Talk 'bout Hypocrisy

malvisguy212:
quote were I tell lies.

IanDiamonds:

Are you really askin' tis'?
Adultery, Homosexuality, pre-marital sex. It wasn't 'bout sexual perversion alone. The people were execrable to say the least.