jl115:

I didnt say we have 18 pilots did i. And why will we have 10 navigators if we only have 8 two seater gripens, and only 12 gripens are in rotation thus 26-12= 14, that means 14 pilots and 4 navigators see, and i posted a pic of 9 saaf gripens in formation.

So after 15 years of signing Gripen contracts, you can't raise upto 18 pilots for a Fighter jet.

It's shameful really.

That post doesn't stipulate the numbers of navigators vice a vis the numbers of pilots trained. It is open to interpretation, the way anyone chooses.

Your Gripens are stored in the freezer, just like your A109's, you are too broke to do anything about them.

Henry120:


Until you can prove you have more, you only got 8 qualified Gripen pilots.

We have bro, countless times.

Henry120:


So after 15 years of signing Gripen contracts, you can't raise upto 18 pilots for a Fighter jet.

It's shameful really.

That post doesn't stipulate the numbers of navigators vice a vis the numbers of pilots trained. It is open to interpretation, the way anyone chooses.

Your Gripens are stored in the freezer, just like your A109's, you are too broke to do anything about them.

If we are broke i cant imagine how broke you guys must be.

jl115:

We have bro, countless times.

No you haven't. You've only proven you have 18 Gripen Aircrew trained.

18 Air crew members for 26 planes isn't a number to sing kum baya over.

jl115:

If we are broke i cant imagine how broke you guys must be.

We have an 8 Billion dollars defence budget. Yours is 3 billion.

You do the maths.

mzilakazi:



The only army that needs upgrade is no one other than Nigerian army. SA is using modern mortars not the mortars with tripods where you will always have to run with bloody tripods everywhere you go.

Hey mumu, the Nigerian photo with 3 arrows shows you a knee mortar with NO tripod, it sits on a small base plate.

NA has advanced becasue of current battle experience, SANDF is at home photographing knee mortars for Hollywod shows, when you have courage to ever go to war, you will learn that the big disadvantage of knee mortars is that you hold them with your hands and when you are in long battle the metal gets hot due to sustained firing and SANDF has to stop while Nigerian army keeps firing with support from tripod stand.

SANDF will soon send officers to learn practical art of war in Nigerian military academy
.

mzilakazi:


I am not a slave to white masters. I am a born free generation from a multiracial country where different cultures and races came together to live as one. I am not from a 100% black country where I see black everywhere I go and become a victim of race obsession. I have learnt to accept that SA is for us all to live together as one. I do not think like a Nigerian when it comes to race, rather, I think like an American or European whose countries population is composed as similar to my own country.


Hamba.... Mzansi...... Hamba.......

You don't think like Americans nor Europeans rather you think like a real lackey.

I'm yet to see a black-American telling peeps that his greatest achievement in life - is kissing a white chic.

Only an unproductive and dumb lackey who enjoys being enslaved would make such moronic comments like yours.

mzilakazi:


Here in SA we do not look around for white faces, we see them everywhere we go. We drink, kiss and caress with them. I even wonder when was the last time you ever kissed a white girl or even to see her. Shame!! to a 100% black country.

patches689:


So now we have gone from "stealth" to "minimum signature"

The world stealth means minimum radar signature. Olodo
.

Henry120:


So after 15 years of signing Gripen contracts, you can't raise upto 18 pilots for a Fighter jet.

It's shameful really.

That post doesn't stipulate the numbers of navigators vice a vis the numbers of pilots trained. It is open to interpretation, the way anyone chooses.

Your Gripens are stored in the freezer, just like your A109's, you are too broke to do anything about them.

Bwahahaha..... you are just only being fooled around. Almost all hawk fighter pilots can also fly and battle with gripens.

iconize:


You don't think like Americans nor Europeans rather you think like a real lackey.

I'm yet to see a black-American telling peeps that his greatest achievement in life - is kissing a white chic.

Only an unproductive and dumb lackey who enjoys being enslaved would make such moronic comments like yours.

Mzilakazi embarrassed all black south-africans with that post. Yet he's so proud of it.

mzilakazi:


Bwahahaha..... you are just only being fooled around. Almost all hawk fighter pilots can also fly and battle with gripens.

Almost all can fly the Gripen, only bottleneck is, there are only 8 qualified Gripen pilots in SAAF.

agaugust:


No you are the time waster, until I used photo screenshots to draw 3 arrows and open your cataract blinded eyes to see that the Nigerian photo contains two separate knee mortars, one attached to a tripod stand and the other standing alone on the tiny base plate leaning on the other mortar, you didn't use your blocked head to think out what the picture shows.

It took almost 24 hours to teach you Domingos a very simple principle of knee mortars and their use on battle field in real war, SANDF knee mortar photos are Hollywood demos, Nigerian knee mortars are in use in war zone and when the metal gets hot due to sustained fire, Nigeria has attachable and collapsible mini tripod stand to hold the mortar and keep firing while South Africa has to stop firing their own.

SANDF is inferior to Nigerian army. We have many new weapons that the photos have not even come to public view yet
.

Neither is a knee or commando mortar

both are conventional mortars

SANDF mortar has a hand grip for when the tube gets hot you slowpoke

agaugust:


France offered Gowind OPV to Nigeria last year asking us to buy one and build the second one domestically in Nigeria with full technology transfer, Nigerian navy may not accept the offer, we are asking to build up to 8 more units of stealth P18N NNS Centenary
.

[citation needed]

[citation needed]

agaugust:


Wrong, Venezuela suffers more sanctions than Nigeria, they are enemy to America and NATO has been punishing Venezuela with sanctions, reason why they now want to buy JF-17 Thunder for Venezuelan air force.

Nigeria's sanctions era ended 1999 and NNS Aradu was upgraded around 2005 by Nigeria and America joint venture.

Come to Lagos with a Valour frigate and kiss my Otomat missile, it out-ranges your 73km Exocet of which you have only 13 units while Nigeria has 40 Otomats.

Let your P.u.ssy Cat visit our Lion's den, we need free breakfast
.

Aradu can only fire 8 otomats

Aradu is not operational

Henry120:


You keep asking this retarrded question, how would I know this exactly?

Only 8 of them have so far been trained.

How do you know we only have 8?

iconize:


You don't think like Americans nor Europeans rather you think like a real lackey.

I'm yet to see a black-American telling peeps that his greatest achievement in life - is kissing a white chic.

Only an unproductive and dumb lackey who enjoys being enslaved would make such moronic comments like yours.

I simply raised that subject because I know how envious are you people that SA was so fortunate to have white population. You like to polarise the SA nation thinking that we will push all our white population to the sea like Zimbabwe. That you will never see even if they can try to paint us black with propaganda. We love our white population and I even know how difficult it is to see white man in Nigeria, talkless of seeing a white woman. Nigeria is one country that still continue to categorise Arabs as white people because they hardly have Europeans, the real white people.

Henry120:


Despite seeing clearly a photo of a single soldier carrying one, you still chose this retarrded answer.

A single soldier carrying a commando mortar that has an attached base-plate and no bi-pod

Clown

Henry120:


They are both light enough for a single soldier to carry comfortably.

No, with a seperate base plate, sight and bi-pod a single soldier cannot "comfortably" carry yours. Standard 3 man mortar team will be needed

patches689:


Augustus you are wasting everyones time

Actually, you have failed to recognise facts.

patches689:


So now we have gone from "stealth" to "minimum signature"

So tell us what stealth is, Olodo?

Henry120:


So after 15 years of signing Gripen contracts, you can't raise upto 18 pilots for a Fighter jet.

It's shameful really.

That post doesn't stipulate the numbers of navigators vice a vis the numbers of pilots trained. It is open to interpretation, the way anyone chooses.

Your Gripens are stored in the freezer, just like your A109's, you are too broke to do anything about them.

We have minimum need for fighters, so we are standing at minimum force requirements

A109's are grounded due to paperwork being out of order

No gripen are in the freezer

14 operational Gripen means 14 Pilots, this is the only logical interpretation

MikeCZAR:
Back to your 15 years claim?

SAAF pilots are well trained. What was the kill ratio during Lion effort?

No aircraft was shot down in Lion Effort, it was a game not real combat. The claims of SAAF defeating the air force pilots of Sweden that sold Gripen to you is a fairy tale propaganda lie that even my 10 year old cousin will dispute
.

Henry120:


Mzilakazi embarrassed all black south-africans with that post. Yet he's so proud of it.

Majority of them think that way.

To them, being modern slaves is something to brag about before other Africans.

Mzilakazi's comment reflects the mindset of an average blek south African, so - I'm not expecting his peeps on here to call him out.

Zimbabweans have many white peeps living with them but you won't see them speaking so inferior.

MikeCZAR:
That's because companies will bid.

But what you should know is that: 7 FRIGATES.

Who's going to approve loans for these imaginary Frigates?

You can't maintain the ones you have now, you still owe 40% of your 1999 misplaced spending spree, I mean, how do you plan on funding them?

Henry120:


Almost all can fly the Gripen, only bottleneck is, there are only 8 qualified Gripen pilots in SAAF.

Let me correct you, SAAF has nine gripen instructors and not pilots. Civilians do not understand military staff. they like to conclude out of context to score some cheap political goals.

Henry120:


Who's going to approve loans for these imaginary Frigates?

You can't maintain the ones you have now, you still owe 40% of your 1999 misplaced spending spree, I mean, how do you plan on funding them?

With locally built frigates, no financing will be necessary since the government will pay for the project.

mzilakazi:



I simply raised that subject because I know how envious are you people that SA was so fortunate to have white population. You like to polarise the SA nation thinking that we will push all our white population to the sea like Zimbabwe. That you will never see even if they can try to paint us black with propaganda. We love our white population and I even know how difficult it is to see white man in Nigeria, talkless of seeing a white woman. Nigeria is one country that still continue to categorise Arabs as white people because they hardly have Europeans, the real white people.

Another truck load of gibberish from the lackey himself.

How can Nigerians be envious of south Africans for having white immigrants amongst them? Lol!

Honestly, dude, you're embarrassing yourself, your nation and every black man on earth with your inferior talks.

jl115:

Sorry buddy but my source is directly from the manufacturer, thus by default its the most accurate.

Mumu, my PDF file is manufacturers specifications fact sheet. Mumu
.

jl115:

You make a great point, but to be honest do we really need a combatant or an anti piracy ship with Good endurance and Range,As for the weapons systems, im sure we have the capability to Arm it as a small Frigate rather than an OPV, I mean look at our Valours, they are armed like ships twice their size, they really are unbelievably well armed for their size.

You've been caught telling "yourselves" lies.

The Valour Frigates are reported to have a defective combat suite.

@Augustine's post proves even more they are a big fat lame sitting duck.

agaugust:


Bwahahahaha

South African military experts prove you a liar and a fraud, South Africans hate the Valour frigates because the warships are poorly armed like if they are a missile fitted OPV....

Publication: The Star Issued: Date: 2007-02-24 Reporter: Michael Schmidt
Has SA Invested in Weak Ships?



Publication
The Star

Date
2007-02-24

Reporter

Michael Schmidt
Web Link

www.thestar.co.za



Serious questions have been raised over the strike capability of the expensive new ships of the South African Navy (SAN). A new independent study claims they are vulnerable to attack from submarines, aircraft and warships, and have little ability to perform the key role of gunboat diplomacy through offshore bombardment.

These critiques emerge from an unpublished and unauthorised manuscript on the South African National Defence Force, A Guide to the SANDF, by defence analyst Leon Engelbrecht. It is the first study of the armed forces in 16 years.

Engelbrecht argues that the four new Valour-class frigates and three new Type 209 submarines are too light in their weapons and defensive counter-measures departments. This is the part of South Africa's multibillion-rand arms deal currently proving most controversial - because of an alleged $3-million (R21-million) bribe paid by the frigate's builders, ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, to former arms acquisition programme head Chippy Shaik.

But Helmoed-Römer Heitman, the Southern African correspondent for Jane's Defence Weekly and author of a similar study, South African Armed Forces (1990), said Engelbrecht had failed to take into account the significant upgrades planned for the naval weapons systems *2, the choices for which would become clear only as the new navy's role developed *3.

Rear Admiral Kevin Watson, the navy's project director for the acquisition of the vessels, confirmed that the bulk of the expenditure on the frigates (65%) had been on the ships, not their weapons systems. This, he admitted, was at odds with the international norm of a 70% ship/30% weapons split.

As a result, according to Engelbrecht, while the ships were top notch, there were significant weaknesses in the weapons, and the counter-measures the ships were able to deploy against enemy attack.

The frigates will be armed with eight Exocet missiles, 16 Umkhonto missiles, a single turreted Denel 76mm gun, Oerlikon 20mm cannons and a South African Denel/Reutech 35mm cannon.

According to Engelbrecht, the frigate's "current armament [was] suited only for limited, short-duration self-defence". Its "land-attack capability [was] limited to guns too light for the task" and it had "no land attack missiles". This inability to add muscle to incursions ashore is underlined by Engelbrecht's argument that "the [Valour] class deliberately lacks a land- attack cruise missile capability for political reasons: such weapons are seen by some as 'too aggressive' and out of keeping with the Valour-class's 'defensive posture' *5.

"However, like its peers, the SAN recognises the growing importance of fighting in the littoral battle-space and supporting land forces … As a result, a missile land-attack capability is likely to be added as funds become available and sensitivities are assuaged."

Heitman said that budgeting, not political shyness, had delayed the development of the navy's land-attack capacity. Still, in Engelbrecht's estimation, the frigates' existing weapons were not up to scratch:

The French anti-ship "Exocet missile was too slow to penetrate modern air defences and too short-ranged to allow the mothership adequate stand-off to evade detection and response … Some commentators have criticised the choice of the Exocet … because of its lack of land-attack ability … Others have hammered the system for its age (developed in 1967), its low relative speed and small warhead, compared with some more modern systems such as the Indo-Russian BrahMos *6," which was touted to the SAN at last year's Africa Aerospace and Defence show in Cape Town.

Heitman suspected the SAN had bought one Exocet and leased the rest *6, but would upgrade to the latest, longer-range (173km) model, which had land-attack capabilities. The SAN was also interested in the supersonic 300km-range BrahMos cruise missile.

The South African Denel Umkhonto-IR is a short-range (12km) anti-aircraft missile, which is still in its development stage, having been "tested only to a limited extent", while "several navies and air forces already have supersonic anti-ship missiles. How the Umkhonto will deal with these is not known." The frigates can have their capacity doubled to 32 Umkhontos, but will probably carry only eight missiles and so "can easily be swamped by saturation attack *7".

Also, after a missile has been fired, empty launch canisters have to be removed from their silos, but: "As far as can be determined, this cannot be done by the Valour-class at sea, [so] reloading will have to be done alongside [in port] or require a replenishment vessel, as a depot ship, in calm seas".

Heitman admitted the missiles might have difficulty intercepting supersonic assaults, but said the Finns' recent acquisition of the Umkhonto and Sweden's interest showed the missile was taken seriously. He added that no navy was able to reload its vertically launched anti-aircraft missiles at sea.

The Italian OTOBreda 76mm cannons were acquired for the Warrior-class strike-craft in 1977 and four reconditioned ones were fitted to the frigates as "an interim cost-saving measure. Senior naval officers are well aware the gun is too small to effectively support forces ashore."

Heitman agreed, but also echoed Engelbrecht in saying the SAN was looking to replace the 76 with a navalised 155mm gun, which could use Denel's world-class G5 and G6 ammunition. Such a long-rage gun, rather than missiles, would be able to bombard enemy air bases, gun emplacements and ports. But this, Heitman argued, would be relevant only once the SAN had acquired multi-role ships capable of landing troops to secure beachheads softened by such bombardment.

In addition, the frigates were not fitted with torpedoes (as they were capable of), and its anti-submarine warfare ability was very basic, Watson admitted. Heitman said "there's absolutely f*** all [the frigates] can do to a submarine except ram it *7".

But the frigates would all go through "a massive upgrade" of their weapons, counter-measure and weapons-control systems in the coming years, he said.

Watson said the frigates' helicopters would initially be used in a surveillance role because they increased the ships' line of sight from 37km to 555km *9.

Politics & Power is a new analytical weekly feature
With acknowledgements to Michael Schmidt and The Star.


*1 What about the $22 million (R156 million) payments paid by the frigate's builders, ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, to other South African's via Monrovia, Liberia (the country with the slackest corporate law and regulations in the world).


*2 Heitman of course is correct in the fact. The Navy purchased an excellent platform with very weak combat system.

But it was not meant to be that way. The SA Navy Combat Suite User Requirement Specification specifies a very powerful combat capability in respect of anti-surface offence, as well as anti-air and anti-submarine defence.

The only thing was that once Thabo Mbeki guaranteed Thomson-CSF and ADS the contract for the combat management system and sensors in 1997 (two years before the contract was signed), the DoD and Armscor were over a barrel. Suddenly and R1,9 billion fully-fledged combat suite went up to R3,9 billion (with Chippy Shaik gleefully rubbing his enrichment
lamp all the way). With a little hard bargaining, but mainly cutting the quantity and quality (quote, unquote) of the combat suite scope of supply, the project team brought the price down from R3,9 billion to some R2,9 billion. Then with a risk sharing approach, as well as the probably exclusion of the price of the anti-ship missiles, the price went down to R2,3 billion and was "in reach of the then price objective" of R2,1 billion. But Chippy pipes up with the affordability study indicating an [acceptable] price of R2,600 billion and so the negotiations ended forthwith and the price went up to and closed at R2,599 billion on the nose. The R300 million sounds more like the wonga splodged by Thomson-CSF in its excitement of getting such a windfall.


*3 This of course is nonsense.

During 1995 to 1997 the Defence Review was undertaken. This confirmed the SA Navy's documented Naval Staff Requirement (NSR) for a multi-role light frigate with the specified combat capability.

The only thing was that the Government's irregular and unlawful acquisition process lead to a situation where the specified capability and equipment were unaffordable in 1999 compared with the ceiling price of R6,001 determined in August 1998.

So the DoD had to embarked on a series of very stealthy (and unlawful) manouvres to get a frigate. First it chopped its organic maritime helicopter, then it added R872 million to it "ceiling" price, then it halved its equipment expectation, then it didn't purchase but leased its anti-ship missiles, then it purchased functionality shortfalls out of the SA Navy's running budget.

Now the DoD is again purchasing maritime helicopters, new anti-ship missiles, torpedoes and a decent naval gun (not a 40-year old 3" pop gun off the strike craft).

This is called fiscal stealth and makes the radar and thermal stealth of the MEKO 200AS look like child's play.


*4 Wrong - the international norm of a multi-role surface combatant is 30% platform / 70% weapons.

But the ship's stealthy acquirers will eventually get the requisite 30% platform / 70% weapons.

Here's what the taxpayer will pay :
Combat Suite = R2,599 billion = 30% (in 1998 Rands)
Combat Suite = 70% = R6,064 billion (in 1998 Rands) = R11,109 billion (in 2007 Rands)

*5 This is also nonsense. The land attack capability is purely a tactical one. The Exocet MM40 Block 2 has a range of some 70 km and a warhead of 165 kg. Even if it had a land attack capability the range and small warhead limit it to a tactical battlefield weapon.

Exocet MM40 Block 3 (or equivalent) has a land attack capability, but still has a range of about 150 km.

Seeing that the ship only has eight ASM launchers the entire naval arsenal is only 32 rounds and these beast cost about US$20 apiece, one couldn't just blast away into one's enemy's territory.

A politically sensitive land attack missile is one with a range of greater than 500 km and payload of greater than 300 kg. For example, one of Bat Boy's favourite early morning diversions is authorising the launch of the Tomahawk Land Attack Cruise Missile. This beastie has a range of 2 500 km and carries a warhead of some 500 kg. And they only cost US$0,5 million a pop - now that's a bargain.


*5 And the Chinese "Dragon's Teeth" series.

These all have ranges of 250 km up to 2 000 km, massive warheads from 250 kg up to 500 kg and supersonic speeds from 2,0 Mach to 2,8 Mach.

It's a nightmare.


*6 Quite how this fits into the boundaries of the Public Finance Management Act, heaven only knows.

But it gets worse. What Heitman is now saying in the open has been suspected since 2001.

On enquiry, the MoD has stated unequivocally (or is it actually equivocally) that the SDP corvette price included 17 Exocet MM40 Block 2 missile rounds in addition to launch tubes and launch controllers.

If it transpires that the MoD has been lying, it should be in big, big trouble with SCOPA.


*7 And saturation attack is just what the Chinese anti-ship tactic is all about - 4 to 6 missiles simultaneously engaging from all four quadrants plus the lovely zenith-diving one.

Should keep Reutech Radar Systems's Optronic Radar Tracker (ORT) and Mtek's Electro-Optic Tracker (EOT) quite busy for those 43,2 seconds from missile detect to who knows what.

As for Thomson-CSF's Threat Evaluation and Weapon Assignment (TEWA) function, let's just hope that this can converge in the saturated space of Mach 2,8 multiple incoming bogies, garlic, escargot, bribes to get the contract, bribes to cover up the investigation and a dose of charming gallic candour.


*8 Which is quite difficult when the submarine has dived to 10 m and launched two wire-guided heavyweight torpedoes with 300 kg high explosive payloads.


*9 With a line of sight of 37 km and using a previous Heitman literary gem, one might as well take the entire ship's crew behind the electronics complex in the Simon's Town Naval Base and put them out of their misery with a bullet in the back of the head.




http://www.armsdeal-vpo.co.za/articles10/weak_ships.html

NAF-F7 jet will sink your over-priced poorly armed Valour Frigate as if it is a fishing boat..... .

CONFIRMED BY SOUTH AFRICAN MILITARY EXPERTS

.

#BUSTED

iconize:


Majority of them think that way.

To them, being modern slaves is something to brag about before other Africans.

Mzilakazi's comment reflects the mindset of an average blek south African, so - I'm not expecting his peeps on here to call him out.

Zimbabweans have many white peeps living with them but you won't see them speaking so inferior.

What you are vomiting is the outcomes of living among black infested country where a single white man will be eaten alive.

mzilakazi:


Facts are always hard to bear. There is no discrepancies in what I have said. Nigeria has no white people of their own, so, leave our white people alone and be cured from your colour sickness.

Another emotional post. Are you seeing your period again?