This is a recurring topic with conservative christians who quote it to augment their preaching on the need for one to be born again and maintain his godliness since we are in the last days. But my question is, are things really getting worse? Or is it their belief in eschatology and premillennialism that is responsible for this view? Do they mean this present age is worse than the whole past of human history?

Fellow Nairalanders, I would like us to discuss this topic since many conservative christians' teachings on apocalypsis are based on it.

Are you seriously asking this?

What's your thought on the matter?

MzNelly:
Are you seriously asking this?

What's your thought on the matter?

I feel a lack of understanding man's progress has beclouded many a christian's view on the world. There is always this attempt to see the world as receding to savagery, which is not actually true since the events of the present era are comparable to the one's of the past. Man has conspicuously made progress, even though arguably. I suspect conservative christians have bought into premillennianism to detain believers in fear and to facilitate control. So I'm massively interested in having the views of others on this topic. It is my view that premillennialism encourages pessimism unlike postmillennialism.

Welrez:
I feel a lack of understanding man's progress has beclouded many a christian's view on the world. There is always this attempt to see the world as receding to savagery, which is not actually true since the events of the present era are comparable to the one's of the past. Man has conspicuously made progress, even though arguably. I suspect conservative christians have bought into premillennianism to detain believers in fear and to facilitate control. So I'm massively interested in having the views of others on this topic. It is my view that premillennialism encourages pessimism unlike postmillennialism.

The world IS going from bad to worse. This isn't about religion.

Check am:
Boko Haram, crime is on the rise, loose people everywhere, pastors mingling with politicians, hardship et cetera, et cetera ad infinitum

Are you directly or indirectly saying these does not affect you?

MzNelly:




The world IS going from bad to worse. This isn't about religion.

Check am:
Boko Haram, crime is on the rise, loose people everywhere, pastors mingling with politicians, hardship et cetera, et cetera ad infinitum

Are you directly or indirectly saying these does not affect you?

Would you have chosen to live at the time of the Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, etc empires to now? Can you compare the havoc of terrorism to the Dark Age after the demise of the Roman Empire? Or between 1914-18 and 1939-45? On morality I won't attempt for lack of concrete measuring criteria but the case of Sodom and Gomorrah is glaring enough. Where you live, would you prefer living there in the sixteen century of slavery and wars to now? Can you compare the Great Depression to the current economic recession?

Welrez:
Would you have chosen to live at the time of the Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, etc empires to now? Can you compare the havoc of terrorism to the Dark Age after the demise of the Roman Empire? Or between 1914-18 and 1939-45? On morality I won't attempt for lack of concrete measuring criteria but the case of Sodom and Gomorrah is glaring enough. Where you live, would you prefer living there in the sixteen century of slavery and wars to now? Can you compare the Great Depression to the current economic recession?

You're saying things are better?

MzNelly:


You're saying things are better?

Yes, but not perfect or where we wish to be. For instance, I'm a staunch advocate of the belief that man is never civilised until he defeats poverty. I say so because poverty is at the bottom of many vices existing in our society. I hope you won't read politics into our discourse.

Welrez:
Yes, but not perfect or where we wish to be. For instance, I'm a staunch advocate of the belief that man is never civilised until he defeats poverty. I say so because poverty is at the bottom of many vices existing in our society. I hope you won't read politics into our discourse.

I already am.

You're cleverly confusing me with your grammar.

MzNelly:


I already am.

You're cleverly confusing me with your grammar.

I thought I was simple and clear enough. I'm sorry about the grammatical confusion.
BTW, our dear Nairaland is also something to make us acknowledge man's progress. Imagine today we are engaging in an academic banter without any face-to-face knowledge and from the comfort of our rooms, which was not possible a century ago. Life has become a lot easier but we not up there yet.

Welrez:
I thought I was simple and clear enough. I'm sorry about the grammatical confusion.
BTW, our dear Nairaland is also something to make us acknowledge man's progress. Imagine today we are engaging in an academic banter without any face-to-face knowledge and from the comfort of our rooms, which was not possible a century ago. Life has become a lot easier but we not up there yet.

It seems to me like you're viewing the development of man without considering how low man has sunk; economically, morally and otherwise.

Going in your line of thought, let me refer you to a long time ago where crime was not as rampant as recent. Where burglary proof items were not a necessity in one's household.

Where the price of things in the market did not skyrocket carelessly.

Where one and all believed in hardwork rather than engage in get-rich-quick schemes.

The advancement you speak of in science and technology has honestly done more harm than good.

this lady is on point.. I can recall my grandmother telling me about a time when traders leave their wares in yhe market and stones indicating price of goods. also in sokoto where they don't have doors.

and Welrez, poverty didn't start ppl taking the goods without placing yheir money as was d norm then. just as mznelly points, moral degradation, greed and laziness made ppl to just walk into other ppls open houses and take things (stealing).

well, its just human nature or d natural way things work. all must deteriorate simplex so its not new and don't expect we religionists not to bank on it, its wat we do

MzNelly:


It seems to me like you're viewing the development of man without considering how low man has sunk; economically, morally and otherwise.

Going in your line of thought, let me refer you to a long time ago where crime was not as rampant as recent. Where burglary proof items were not a necessity in one's household.

Where the price of things in the market did not skyrocket carelessly.

Where one and all believed in hardwork rather than engage in get-rich-quick schemes.

The advancement you speak of in science and technology has honestly done more harm than good.

I don't like to talk about morality because it is a relative concept. I've made my point on the economy known to you. Crime is on the increase and so are ways of tackling it. Crime increases with people and when a comparative analysis of crime rates and the population then and now is done, crime has gone down, especially in the developed world. Google it. The skyrocketing inflation is not new and the current trend is far more stable than in the past. I've given you instances in an earlier post. Your view seems to cover only Nigeria, if I understand you properly. I will ask you again, do you prefer living in sixteen-century Africa to today's Africa?

Welrez:
I don't like to talk about morality because it is a relative concept. I've made my point on the economy known to you. Crime is on the increase and so are ways of tackling it. Crime increases with people and when a comparative analysis of crime rates and the population then and now is done, crime has gone down, especially in the developed world. Google it. The skyrocketing inflation is not new and the current trend is far more stable than in the past. I've given you instances in an earlier post. Your view seems to cover only Nigeria, if I understand you properly. I will ask you again, do you prefer living in sixteen-century Africa to today's Africa?

Well, I don't know what it was like then. How would I know whether I prefer it or not?

Crime has gone down?
Hm.

Well, like our elders will say: "He who has only swam in the lake should not boast about competing well in the ocean."

MzNelly:


Well, I don't know what it was like then. How would I know whether I prefer it or not?

Crime has gone down?
Hm.

Well, like our elders will say: "He who has only swam in the lake should not boast about competing well in the ocean."

If I had only swum in the lake, I won't have told you to google it.

Things are indeed better than they were in the distant past, however it appears that we have hit a peak and now in a gradual decline.
The other thing to consider is the fact that while this civilisation has raised the level of comfort enjoyed by most people around the world to what was once the exclusive preserve of royalty, it has also increased the potential for anthropogenic cataclysmic events to levels never before seen or thought possible.

Welrez:
If I had only swum in the lake, I won't have told you to google it.

Well, each to their own, I say.

Welrez:
If I had only swum in the lake, I won't have told you to google it.

Experience is different from knowledge you gathered somewhere.
Advancement in technology had made human lazy.
Education had made men close to ideas rather than open to ideas.
Information had made men confused and skeptical.
Politics had made human liberal and having no moral boundaries.

We have exercise the use of the left side of the brain over the right side.
We know how to use our head but we don't know how to use our heart. We are unemotional but very logical.

Yes the world and human are degrading.

Hiswordxray:

Experience is different from knowledge you gathered somewhere.
Advancement in technology had made human lazy.
Education had made men close to ideas rather than open to ideas.
Information had made men confused and skeptical.
Politics had made human liberal and having no moral boundaries.

We have exercise the use of the left side of the brain over the right side.
We know how to use our head but we don't know how to use our heart. We are unemotional but very logical.

Yes the world and human are degrading.

I can tell you that education is more secular, liberal and open than ever since recorded history. Are you telling me that today man is more debased than his ancestors who used to engage in internecine conflicts and wars daily? Do you have the faintest idea of what was obtainable in the Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, etc empires? In respect of education, do you know what education was like during the Dark Age? Do you wish to tell me that we are worse off than our ancestors then? What is morality? What is moral degradation? Read world history to know where we're coming from and make factual statements devoid of subjectivity.

Welrez:
I can tell you that education is more secular, liberal and open than ever since recorded history. Are you telling me that today man is more debased than his ancestors who used to engage in internecine conflicts and wars daily? Do you have the faintest idea of what was obtainable in the Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, etc empires? In respect of education, do you know what education was like during the Dark Age? Do you wish to tell me that we are worse off than our ancestors then? What is morality? What is moral degradation? Read world history to know where we're coming from and make factual statements devoid of subjectivity.

We are in religion section and the standard for judgment here should be religious.
Men today are less religious than those in the past.
Today the boundary of morality had been pushed to the extreme. In the past people do immoral things but yet they know what is moral and what is immoral. But today the line between morality and immorality had almost disappear.

For example: even though people in the past were involve in homosexuality at least they know it is immoral.
But today homosexuality is considered moral. It had been legalized and homo partners even get married in the Church.

Today almost everything had become subjective.
People use to believe in god but today it is subjective.
There is to be a clear definition of morality but today it is subjective.
There is to be a belief in the supernatural but today it is subjective. Even if something supernatural happens before your eyes you can still choose to believe it or not. Yet we claim to be empirical.
I say humans are getting even more stupid and yet we boast of our knowledge and intelligence.

Hiswordxray:

We are in religion section and the standard for judgment here should be religious.
Men today are less religious than those in the past.
Today the boundary of morality had been pushed to the extreme. In the past people do immoral things but yet they know what is moral and what is immoral. But today the line between morality and immorality had almost disappear.

For example: even though people in the past were involve in homosexuality at least they know it is immoral.
But today homosexuality is considered moral. It had been legalized and homo partners even get married in the Church.

Today almost everything had become subjective.
People use to believe in god but today it is subjective.
There is to be a clear definition of morality but today it is subjective.
There is to be a belief in the supernatural but today it is subjective. Even if something supernatural happens before your eyes you can still choose to believe it or not. Yet we claim to be empirical.
I say humans are getting even more stupid and yet we boast of our knowledge and intelligence.

There was a hint of your view of me as an atheist in your first post which I failed to refute. I'm a christian of Anglican extraction. The religion section does not represent or project all the order existing on earth and the richness of their tenets. So your sole christian or Abrahamic religions' views on morality is still relative here.

Welrez:
There was a hint of your view of me as an atheist in your first post which I failed to refute. I'm a christian of Anglican extraction. The religion section does not represent or project all the order existing on earth and the richness of their tenets. So your sole christian or Abrahamic religions' views on morality is still relative here.

You are a Christian!!!
But you don't speak like a Christian. This is exactly the problem of Christianity today. We go to Church but we don't know how to see things through God heart. We don't even act like Christians but we behave and see things like the spiritually dead men.

It is very difficult for people to be able to tell the difference between a person that is suppose to have the life of God and a person that is carnal and spiritually dead.

Hiswordxray:

You are a Christian!!!
But you don't speak like a Christian. This is exactly the problem of Christianity today. We go to Church but we don't know how to see things through God heart. We don't even act like Christians but we behave and see things like the spiritually dead men.

It is very difficult for people to be able to tell the difference between a person that is suppose to have the life of God and a person that is carnal and spiritually dead.

Luke 6:37; John 8:7

Welrez:
Luke 6:37; John 8:7

I'm sorry if you feel like am judging and condemning you. I am only trying to speak the truth.
You see things from the world perspective and not God's word perspective.
I am also carnal in some areas but when I realize my carnality I try to amend my ways. I am not abusing you by all I'm doing is pointing out your carnality.

You need to change the way you see things.

Welrez I understand your position....you ask why must christians(or atleast most of them) be taught that society is crumbling and on the brink of destruction....that things are getting worse everyday..
Well I'm an atheist,but when I was a christian I was raised in a school that taught such a belief....the woman in charge usually scared everyone with one of her "scenerio's"....
One of her scenarios was that, if we were instantly killed right there, where would we spend "eternity"?

davien:
Welrez I understand your position....you ask why must christians(or atleast most of them) be taught that society is crumbling and on the brink of destruction....that things are getting worse everyday..
Well I'm an atheist,but when I was a christian I was raised in a school that taught such a belief....the woman in charge usually scared everyone with one of her "scenerio's"....
One of her scenarios was that, if we were instantly killed right there, where would we spend "eternity"?

Oh! You are once a deeper lifer.
No wonder!!!

Hiswordxray:

Oh! You are once a deeper lifer.
No wonder!!!

I was actually a living faith member...

edogho:
this lady is on point.. I can recall my grandmother telling me about a time when traders leave their wares in yhe market and stones indicating price of goods. also in sokoto where they don't have doors.

and Welrez, poverty didn't start ppl taking the goods without placing yheir money as was d norm then. just as mznelly points, moral degradation, greed and laziness made ppl to just walk into other ppls open houses and take things (stealing).

well, its just human nature or d natural way things work. all must deteriorate simplex so its not new and don't expect we religionists not to bank on it, its wat we do

What is your point, sir? I'll advise you not to assess man's progress through your granny's eyes because she must have occupied only a tiny part of the earth and maybe did not read deep into world history. So her views may only reflect happenings around her and her age. Have you read what life was like in the past in various parts of the world and the stages it has undergone? To assess man's progress by the happenings in your age and environment alone is , at best, parochial.

For those who believe that the world is going down the pan should read up declinism and why we tend to fall into that trap.