FortresOfChrist:
Okay sir that's deep sir. Can you explain sir both statement. If he sin, is he still a sinner?

One who believes is a believer. One who preaches is a preacher. One who doesnt believe is an unbeliever. One who sings is a singer. One who teaches is a teacher. So does it require rocket science to know that one who sins is a sinner?

FortresOfChrist:
What does he have to do again to go to heaven. Thanks sir

He has to confess his sins and reconcile with God...and continue to live a good life in Christ.

God must be very busy wiping out names and replacing them when we ask for forgiveness.

If the condition for making heaven is based on what we do while under the blood of the lamb, then there is absolutely no need for the blood in the first place.

The blood is a shield from the angel of death, if death can yet whisk us from God's grasp then there is no GRACE in the first place. Ofcourse this isn't so, because
Romans 8
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's [size=28pt]elect[/size]? It is God that [size=28pt]justifieth[/size].

34 Who is he that [size=28pt]condemneth[/size]? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?....

I wish I could help the guy above but how can you help a guy who says that Jesus' gospel is different from Paul's gospel...and that the Jesus on earth is different from the one in heaven now.

His problem is too deep.

Jesus gospel different from Paul's!!! How now? When what Paul spoke was not even his own direct words but that of Christ.

And as for your Jesus concerns, we do not know Him by the flesh anymore but by His Spirit through His gospel which came after His ascension.

2 Cor 5:16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer.

Open thy mind..

shdemidemi:
God must be very busy wiping out names and replacing them when we ask for forgiveness.
If the condition for making heaven is based on what we do while under the blood of the lamb, then there is absolutely no need for the blood in the first place.

The blood is a shield from the angel of death, if death can yet whisk us from God's grasp then there is no GRACE in the first place. Ofcourse this isn't so, because
Romans 8
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's [size=28pt]elect[/size]? It is God that [size=28pt]justifieth[/size].
34 Who is he that [size=28pt]condemneth[/size]? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?....

italo:
I wish I could help the guy above but how can you help a guy who says that Jesus' gospel is different from Paul's gospel
...and that the Jesus on earth is different from the one in heaven now.

His problem is too deep.

Beats me why people cant stick to subject matters at hand but instead, at any slightest opportunity always resort to ad hominems
This sneaky practice is now becoming a popular weapon used on the Religion forum for shutting, to shut a person down or shut a person up.
Lets stick to the subject matter and leave out whatever anyone says outside it
No offense but please whatever he said outside the subject matter actually does not affect the soundness of his post or argument

italo:

One who believes is a believer. One who preaches is a preacher. One who doesnt believe is an unbeliever. One who sings is a singer. One who teaches is a teacher. So does it require rocket science to know that one who sins is a sinner?


He has to confess his sins and reconcile with God...and continue to live a good life in Christ.

That is not necessarily true. An unbeliever can do good works and still be unrighteous by divine judgment. And a born again christian can sin and still be righteous by imputation.

Psalm 51v5 -Behold I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

He didn't mean his mother was an adulterer or had him outside matrimony; he meant he was in iniquity from the very moment he took shape in the womb, and that he was a sinner from conception.

That's remarkable! How can someone be a sinner ever before he was born, ever before he has had a chance to do anything -good or evil?

It is because sin is first and foremost BEING IN THE IMAGE OF THE FIRST ADAM. Any man in the image of the first Adam is a SINNER, even if he hasn't committed any sinful act.

Let me show you another scripture to buttress that truth.

Psalm 58v3 -The wicked are estranged FROM THE WOMB they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Can you see this too. To be estranged means to be foreign to, or to be at odds with.

How can someone that is still in the womb be called wicked and estranged from God? When he hasn't done anything good or evil? It is because sin is fundamentally the image of the first Adam; and anyone in that image is estranged -even before evil works follow.

So a sinner is anyone born of a woman in the image of the first Adam -even if he still does some good or righteous acts.

Now, flipping it right-side up, this same principle applies with the new creation too. A righteous person is someone who is born of God in the image of the last Adam through faith in Christ -even if he still sins.

The consequence of sin in the life of a believer is not the loss of his salvation or imputed righteousness, unless the carnality degenerates into unbelief (loss of faith in Christ).

Yes, carnality can degenerate into lukewarmness, lukewarmness into spiritual indifference, and indifference into unbelief. But until unbelief, he is still saved and righteous by imputation.

Goshen360:


Justification is indeed a deep subject, an Apostolic doctrine as it is. It is part of the finished works of Christ but I will save time and go straight to your queries:

How can a just God declare a sinner righteous even with their sins because they are in Christ Lord our fortress and some still say they have sin in their lives?

Simple because, in Christ, we have no righteousness of our own but Christ has become our righteousness. God doesn't see us via our works or faults, but God sees us via the righteousness of Christ. Christ's experience becomes our experience just like If I place money inside an envelop and mail to you as a gift. The experience\movement of the envelop becomes the experience\movement of the money inside the envelop. Such is ours, IN Christ - He is our righteousness and our justification.

Being a sinner is by nature not by our works. We are not a sinner because we sinned but because we inherit the sin nature by Adam. So also, we are not righteous because we did something right, but because Christ became for us, righteousness and made us righteous.

King James Bible
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Romans 5:19

God doesn't see sin in the lives of those who he had declared righteous and those he had justified in Christ. Abraham had his faults and errors and missed the mark (sinned) but never was Abraham's sin recorded but instead, we was described as a perfect person. This is the works of Christ's finished works of Justification hidden in Abraham for believers. Heaven does not record the sins of believers because of Christ's righteousness\justifications, just like it never happened. God removed man from the equation and put Christ alone in the redemption!!!

Another issue is how can a sinner be declared guiltless without works?

Because your works didn't make God see you as righteous and declared you justified in the first place - it is because you're in Christ. So also, your works can't help God to declare you righteous.

King James Bible
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Romans 5:19

So my question is is one who is justified and declared righteous still a sinner?

No, one who is justified and declared righteous is not a sinner. Like a said, being a sinner is by nature, not because one did something wrong, just like being a male\female is by nature. The sin nature most time is what the Apostle dealt with but people misinterpreted as the act of sin and that's why they kept asking...."shall we continue in sin (act) that Grace may abound". Listen to the reply: How shall we who are dead to sin (nature) live therein in it? A dead man is no longer alive to an act...he's dead.

Does the bible teaches that one can be righteous, justified and at the same time be sinner after being declared justified?

No, the bible doesn't call or teach that one who is righteous or declared justified (in Christ) is still a sinner. Just as the Apostle taught the sin nature (outside of Christ via Adam), he also taught righteousness and justification as a nature\identity in Christ. You can't be a male and at the same time a female. You're either one but can't be both at the same time. You were once a sinner but now, righteous or the righteousness of God in Christ. Listen to this verse and pay attention to the tenses:

New International Version
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11

God bless you sir, Grace is way TOO TOO BIG for some ppl to understand. A christian has never sined and can not sin. I said this in grace convention 2013, and many religious Nlders were blown away. Stay bless MoG.

BabaGnoni:


Beats me why people cant stick to subject matters at hand but instead, at any slightest opportunity always resort to ad hominems
This sneaky practice is now becoming a popular weapon used on the Religion forum for shutting, to shut a person down or shut a person up.
Lets stick to the subject matter and leave out whatever anyone says outside it
No offense but please whatever he said outside the subject matter actually does not affect the soundness of his post or argument

I'm not trying to shut him up. I'm not saying what he said outside affects his argument. I'm only expressing my pity because I don't know how he can be helped. I've known him for some time and I know he doesn't see things logically.

As for the argument, maybe you can help me ask him these questions related to my earlier post:

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.’

1. Were the people in the passage justified? Yes or no.
2. Did they commit sin? Yes or no.
3. Did the go to heaven? Yes or no.

@shdemidemi, please answer yes or no. No stories.
@BabaGnoni, please be a good referee.

christemmbassey:
God bless you sir, Grace is way TOO TOO BIG for some ppl to understand. A christian has never sined and can not sin. I said this in grace convention 2013, and many religious Nlders were blown away. Stay bless MoG.

Paul said he sinned in Romans 7.

So Paul was a Muslim or an Atheist?

@BabaGnoni...watch here too o.

ayoku777:


That is not necessarily true. An unbeliever can do good works and still be unrighteous by divine judgment. And a born again christian can sin and still be righteous by imputation.

Psalm 51v5 -Behold I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

He didn't mean his mother was an adulterer or had him outside matrimony; he meant he was in iniquity from the very moment he took shape in the womb, and that he was a sinner from conception.

That's remarkable! How can someone be a sinner ever before he was born, ever before he has had a chance to do anything -good or evil?

It is because sin is first and foremost BEING IN THE IMAGE OF THE FIRST ADAM. Any man in the image of the first Adam is a SINNER, even if he hasn't committed any sinful act.

Let me show you another scripture to buttress that truth.

Psalm 58v3 -The wicked are estranged FROM THE WOMB they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Can you see this too. To be estranged means to be foreign to, or to be at odds with.

How can someone that is still in the womb be called wicked and estranged from God? When he hasn't done anything good or evil? It is because sin is fundamentally the image of the first Adam; and anyone in that image is estranged -even before evil works follow.

So a sinner is anyone born of a woman in the image of the first Adam -even if he still does some good or righteous acts.

Now, flipping it right-side up, this same principle applies with the new creation too. A righteous person is someone who is born of God in the image of the last Adam through faith in Christ -even if he still sins.

The consequence of sin in the life of a believer is not the loss of his salvation or imputed righteousness, unless the carnality degenerates into unbelief (loss of faith in Christ).

Yes, carnality can degenerate into lukewarmness, lukewarmness into spiritual indifference, and indifference into unbelief. But until unbelief, he is still saved and righteous by imputation.

What is your point?

italo:
I'm not trying to shut him up.
I'm not saying what he said outside affects his argument.
I'm only expressing my pity because I don't know how he can be helped.
I've known him for some time and I know he doesn't see things logically.

Going by the above, seems you are prejudiced against him then to have dragged or brought that in
(i.e. you've made up your mind about him, regardless of his present submission)
- take him on, confront or challenge him on the presence not on the/his past
say your piece, let it arrest him and leave the rest for the Holy Spirit to convict
- dont be play the judge, jury and executioner

italo:
As for the argument, maybe you can help me ask him these questions related to my earlier post:

Matt 7:21
²¹“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
²² On that day many will say to me,
‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?’
²³ Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.’

1. Were the people in the passage justified? Yes or no.
2. Did they commit sin? Yes or no.
3. Did the go to heaven? Yes or no.

@shdemidemi, please answer yes or no. No stories.

1. Were the people in the passage justified? Yes or no.
>> Ans: No
2. Did they commit sin? Yes or no.
>> Ans: Yes
3. Did the go to heaven? Yes or no.
>> Ans: No

The people in that verse weren't genuine saints to start with
italo check the argument in Romans 3:7 out for reasons behind the binaries given above

Someone might argue,
"If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?"
- Romans 3:7 NIV


Goshen360 with some instructives, had earlier did some overtime on righteous and the righteousness of God in Christ

Jesus in Luke 5:32 and Luke 15:7 hinted what a sinner that repents becomes.
The fact & truth of the matter, is that sinner after repetance becomes righteous
Sinners translate and become righteous (i.e. received righteousness via Christ)

I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
- Luke 5:32 NIV

I say unto you,
that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth,
more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
- Luke 15:7 King James Bible

In the same way,
I tell you that there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents
than over 99 righteous people who don't need to repent."
- Luke 15:7 ISV

The righteousnes of God in Christ is superimposed on a repented sinner, so that what God sees, is not sin, but rather what He sees, is His righteous, in Christ.
The repented sinner no longer has the sinner tag, he is now a new creation, old things have passed away and all things about him/her has become new
The person is now RIGHTEOUS and as opposed to been called a SINNER, is now called a SAINT

One who believes is a believer. One who preaches is a preacher.
One who doesnt believe is an unbeliever. One who sings is a singer. One who teaches is a teacher.
So does it require rocket science to know that one who sins is a sinner?
- © italo

italo, this is a logical fallacy because your child that does anything BAD, but is not necessarily called a BADDIE
In every parents' eye, their kid wont melt butter in their mouths, so are saints in God's eyes or with God (i.e. saints aren't called sinners)
- it's all down to the Righteous of God in Christ that saints possess or have

Scripture 1 Peter 4:18, like lets us know that there is a distinction between the sinner and the righteous

And if a righteous person is saved with difficulty, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?
- 1 Peter 4:18 Holman Christian Standard Bible

The above © italo copyright does not apply or work with the Saints‎. Saints sins but have the opportunity to approach the throne of grace boldly for mercy (i.e. forgiveness) and assistance when their world crumbles and/or in the times of trouble like after sinning (i.e. Hebrews 4:15-16)

We all sin at the drop of the hat but it in the context of now been made righteous and being a Saint, it doesn't necessarily make us sinners
‎- Sinners are those bound to or heading for destruction in the Lake of fire. This is the instructive distinction of who is a sinner and who is a saint

Now we know that God heareth not sinners:
but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth
- John 9:31 KJ Bible

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners,
is therefore Christ the minister of sin?
God forbid.
Galatians 2:17KJ Bible

Saints that sins ARE NOT sinners, but are saints or righteous that sin
Saints can revert back to sinners though

Grace, is the ability to do things effortlessly, like ability to refrain from effortlessly sinning
(i.e. not sin easily and without having to struggle with not comitting sin)

Birds fly gracefully, they fly without struggling (i.e. God gave them that grace),
Saints are given grace NOT FOR sin or sinning but given grace NOT to sin (i.e. ability to effortlessly not sin)

PS: I have to shoot, I can't finish this off so will post as it is

italo:
@BabaGnoni, please be a good referee.

It has nothing to with refereeing, besides, not that I intend to but I havent even got a referee badge
It has more and a lot do with the well known Voltaire freedom of speech saying
It was Voltaire, who said:
"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
Permit a man to fearlessly post or speak without fear of personal attack to tarnish reputation or fear of character assassination

PS: I have to shoot, I can't finish this off so will post as it is

italo:


I'm not trying to shut him up.

italo:
I'm not saying what he said outside affects his argument.

So why raise it here and not attack the current issue of the thread?

italo:
I'm only expressing my pity because I don't know how he can be helped. I've known him for some time and I know he doesn't see things logically.

Pity!!! Don't get me started.

If you really want to talk logic, you had better come from an atheist point of view and not try to impose logic to a structured resource that stands far higher than the logical capability of the human race put together.

italo:
As for the argument, maybe you can help me ask him these questions related to my earlier post:

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.’

1. Were the people in the passage justified? Yes or no.
2. Did they commit sin? Yes or no.
3. Did the go to heaven? Yes or no.

@shdemidemi, please answer yes or no. No stories.
@BabaGnoni, please be a good referee.

1. Were the people in the passage justified? Yes or no. No! No because the price for justification had not been paid at this time.

2. Did they commit sin? Yes or no. Yes, so they deserve the death/wrath of God.

3. Did the go to heaven? Yes or no. An unjustified sinner goes straight to hell.

My own question-

Did the early church in Corinth commit the act of sin? Yes or No

Did Paul call them Carnal? Yes or No

Did Paul call them saints because of their sanctification and justification by God through Christ? Yes or No

My broda,
When you look at that scripture italo has raised, Jesus speaking BEFORE his death and resurrection was talking future. How could the subjects of that passage invoke the name of Jesus to perform miracles? I thought the name of Jesus was invoked AFTER Pentecost.

Supposing hypothetically the name of Jesus was used BEFORE his ascension, How many disciples did Jesus make? At Pentecost, they were 120. He appeared to about 500 in 1 Cor 15. Let's assume that EVERYONE of these guys invoked the name before the price of Justification had been paid and they perished. Would they really count as MANY?

That passage needs some honest reflection and not brushing. Given these guys could use the name of Jesus EFFECTIVELY, they must have been believers. Otherwise you are left with an awkward situation where unbelievers invoke the name of the Lord they are not submitted to. We saw sons of Sceva attempting this and failing .

What italo the Catholic is raising is serious; under what circumstance can a believer lose his eternal life?
Hard core calvinists will tell you it is IMPOSSIBLE to lose it

Moderates like ayoku777 will tell you that you lose it once you denounce your faith. Theoretically, you can sin and kill everyone in the whole world and still get to heaven because your 'faith' was intact. You can worship devils and offer human sacrifices and still get to heaven because your faith is still there. I note he is careful to mark the point of no return as 'unbelief' something he can't bother define. What is UNBELIEF?

Another clever theory injected is the REWARDS theory. It states that the works and your conduct AFTER coming to Christ earns you a bigger reward in eternity not eternity itself. The lesser you do the lesser the reward/crown. Sin in other words robs you of your reward but not eternity. THis is a softer version of the Hard core calvinism since here you can't lose your eternity as well

There is a fine line between ASSURANCE of salvation and license to sin

Believers who don't find it remotely revolting for men to spend eternity in hell for rejecting Christ are extremely bothered by by the thought of a born again guy perishing in hell. What's the fear of perishing? DOn't you have the Word and the Holy Spirit in you? If that is not sufficient to save you, then nothing will

shdemidemi:


1. Were the people in the passage justified? Yes or no. No! No because the price for justification had not been paid at this time.

2. Did they commit sin? Yes or no. Yes, so they deserve the death/wrath of God.

3. Did the go to heaven? Yes or no. An unjustified sinner goes straight to hell.

My own question-

Did the early church in Corinth commit the act of sin? Yes or No

Did Paul call them Carnal? Yes or No

Did Paul call them saints because of their sanctification and justification by God through Christ? Yes or No

christemmbassey:
God bless you sir, Grace is way TOO TOO BIG for some ppl to understand. A christian has never sined and can not sin. I said this in grace convention 2013, and many religious Nlders were blown away. Stay bless MoG.

Thank you.
Anytime I say it's impossible for a child of God to sin Christians attack me. But it's written clearly in the Bible (1John 3:9).
The truth is that in Christ we have never sin, we can't sin and we would never sin.

italo:
What is your point?

I told you before you are too carnal. If you don't understand spiritual things just shut up and read.
And as you humble yourself I know you would get to a place where you could understand these things.

vooks:
My broda,
When you look at that scripture italo has raised, Jesus speaking BEFORE his death and resurrection was talking future. How could the subjects of that passage invoke the name of Jesus to perform miracles? I thought the name of Jesus was invoked AFTER Pentecost.

Before the death and resurrection of Christ the disciples were given the power to work miracles.

Matthew 10:10
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

and around this time some other folks were using the same name and authority to perform miracles.

Mark 9:38
38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

All of these happened while he was alive and they primarily apply to this time. That is not to say we cannot learn from it, but it does not apply to the present dispensation/administration of the Holy Spirit which is built on THE FREE GIFT OF SALVATION.

If we must look at this in the futuristic sense, it will perfectly fit hand in glove with 'post rapture' i.e after the churh and the Holy Spirit as we have Him today leaves. A time when people will have to suffer and endure tribulation to be saved.

Jesus said MANY will say on that day. Are you trying to define 'many' as his disciples before his resurrection? they numbered hundreds. At Pentecost they were 120. Go figure

And before I forget, there is NOTHING there to restrict the 'many' to the pre-resurrection users of His name

shdemidemi:


Before the death and resurrection of Christ the disciples were given the power to work miracles.

Matthew 10:10
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

and around this time some other folks were using the same name and authority to perform miracles.

Mark 9:38
38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

All of these happened while he was alive and they primarily apply to this time. That is not to say we cannot learn from it, but it does not apply to the present dispensation/administration of the Holy Spirit which is built on THE FREE GIFT OF SALVATION.

These lose statements are your bane. So, with Holy Spirit out of the world, how will the sinners be convicted of their sins? Osmosis or radiation? Keep on clinging to that myth of pretrib

If we must look at this in the futuristic sense, it will perfectly fit hand in glove with 'post rapture' i.e after the churh and the Holy Spirit as we have Him today leaves. A time when people will have to suffer and endure tribulation to be saved.

The reason while we still sin is because our flesh is still dead.
When we become born again our spirit was reborn, renewed and received the life of God.
Our soul need to be constantly renewed by the word. The more we feed on the word of God the more our soul receives life.
But for the flesh, it is dead and it will remain dead until Christ comes. Then we would be given a glorious body, the one that have life and not death.
But for now we just have to learn to walk according to the spirit and we would commit sin. But if we make mistake, walk in the flesh and commit sin we should know that God had already forgive us our sins over two thousand years ago. And we shouldn't remain in guilt but in thanksgiving, know how much God loves us and how merciful He is.

vooks:
My broda,
When you look at that scripture italo has raised, Jesus speaking BEFORE his death and resurrection was talking future. How could the subjects of that passage invoke the name of Jesus to perform miracles? I thought the name of Jesus was invoked AFTER Pentecost.

Supposing hypothetically the name of Jesus was used BEFORE his ascension, How many disciples did Jesus make? At Pentecost, they were 120. He appeared to about 500 in 1 Cor 15. Let's assume that EVERYONE of these guys invoked the name before the price of Justification had been paid and they perished. Would they really count as MANY?

That passage needs some honest reflection and not brushing. Given these guys could use the name of Jesus EFFECTIVELY, they must have been believers. Otherwise you are left with an awkward situation where unbelievers invoke the name of the Lord they are not submitted to. We saw sons of Sceva attempting this and failing .

What italo the Catholic is raising is serious; under what circumstance can a believer lose his eternal life?
Hard core calvinists will tell you it is IMPOSSIBLE to lose it

Moderates like ayoku777 will tell you that you lose it once you denounce your faith. Theoretically, you can sin and kill everyone in the whole world and still get to heaven because your 'faith' was intact. You can worship devils and offer human sacrifices and still get to heaven because your faith is still there. I note he is careful to mark the point of no return as 'unbelief' something he can't bother define. What is UNBELIEF?

Another clever theory injected is the REWARDS theory. It states that the works and your conduct AFTER coming to Christ earns you a bigger reward in eternity not eternity itself. The lesser you do the lesser the reward/crown. Sin in other words robs you of your reward but not eternity. THis is a softer version of the Hard core calvinism since here you can't lose your eternity as well

There is a fine line between ASSURANCE of salvation and license to sin

Believers who don't find it remotely revolting for men to spend eternity in hell for rejecting Christ are extremely bothered by by the thought of a born again guy perishing in hell. What's the fear of perishing? DOn't you have the Word and the Holy Spirit in you? If that is not sufficient to save you, then nothing will

Don't interprete scripture with emotion or with sentiments. You can't be objective when you do. Simply let scripture say what it said.

Theories and hypothesis don't carry weight in the light of what scriptures explicitly states.

1Cor 3v15 -If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.

Can you see that? There are only two works that will burn in the fire of Christ's judgment -The works of the flesh or Works done in the flesh.

Now, scripture says a man's work can be burnt up, yet his salvation remains unaffected. His carnal works will make him suffer loss, but not the loss of salvation.

Now, If according to scripture, it is possible for a man's work to be all burnt up because they were either works of the flesh or works done in the flesh, yet he himself is saved. Shouldn't that show you that it means our works don't add or subtract from our salvation?

Our works only add or subtract from our reward in heaven and from our glorification and greatness in the kingdom -not from our salvation.

That is scripture for you, I didn't make it up or twist the meaning.

Here is another passage:

Romans 8v10 -And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.

Let me show it in amplified;

Romans 8v10 -But if Christ lives in you, [then although] your [natural] body is dead by reason of sin and guilt, the spirit is alive because of [the] righteousness [that He imputes to you] -AMP

Can you see again? That sin and guilt in the body does not nullify or invalidate imputed righteousness in the regenerated spirit of a believer.

His spirit stays righteous and justified by imputed righteousness through faith.

That is the basis upon which Paul could still talk about the salvation on the Lord's day, of the spirit of an unrepentant fornicator in the corinthian church.

1Cor 5v5 -To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I'm not making this scriptures up or twisting their meaning.

So talking theoretically or hypothetically does not carry weight in the light of scriptural truths. We are saved by faith alone and can only be unsaved by denouncing that faith.

As for the definition of unbelief. To believe in Christ is to believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God; and that He died for your sins and rose for your justification. This is the christian or new creation creed. And UNBELIEF is to deny this truth.

If you believe this with your heart, you have answered the call of salvation; and you receive the gift of righteousness and the promise of the Holy Spirit. And you can't lose it until or unless you denounce that faith.

That is what is "The Sin unto (spiritual) Death".

This is not me being "moderate" as you said; this is me being "objective" and plain with scripture.

vooks:
Jesus said MANY will say on that day. Are you trying to define 'many' as his disciples before his resurrection? they numbered hundreds. At Pentecost they were 120. Go figure

And before I forget, there is NOTHING there to restrict the 'many' to the pre-resurrection users of His name

The condition for salvation pre-resurrection is different from post-resurrection, do you agree?

vooks:
These lose statements are your bane. So, with Holy Spirit out of the world, how will the sinners be convicted of their sins? Osmosis or radiation? Keep on clinging to that myth of pretrib

We are presently in the dispensation of the Spirit: A dispensation of Grace, justification and election without works or affiliation. This dispensation will certainly come to an end as explained by Apostle Paul at rapture.

A new dispensation of salvation by works will begin as described in the book of Revelation. agree?

Can you please in the fewest words explain to me why you think the 'many' of matthew 7 are pre-resurrection users of the name of Jesus.

Is it because you think post-resurrection users of the same can't possibly go to hell but the pre-resurrection users are not afforded that ASSURANCE?

shdemidemi:


The condition for salvation pre-resurrection is different from post-resurrection, do you agree?





We are presently in the dispensation of the Spirit: A dispensation of Grace, justification and election without works or affiliation. This dispensation will certainly come to an end as explained by Apostle Paul at rapture.

A new dispensation of salvation by works will begin as described in the book of Revelation. agree?

Hiswordxray:
Someone who is justified is not a sinner but is Holy, righteous, faultless blameless in the sight of God (Col 1:22 & Eph 1:4)
Someone who is in Christ can never sin because there is no sin in Christ (1John 3:5&9).

God bless you for this
someone who is in Christ (everybody in Christianity ) can be committing the worst sin, but God's eyes are closed because of Christ, he sees nothing the guy is doing, everything he does is righteous, righteous, righteous
this is the extent of justification

vooks:
Can you please in the fewest words explain to me why you think the 'many' of matthew 7 are pre-resurrection users of the name of Jesus.

Is it because you think post-resurrection users of the same can't possibly go to hell but the pre-resurrection users are not afforded that ASSURANCE?

Vooks

You did not answer my questions, why?

'Many' of Matthew 7 is referring to a people who will be judged unto salvation by 'dos and don'ts' i.e by Works.

This sort of judgement is not applicable where there is 'justification' by grace through Christ. Under the dispensation of the Holy Spirit, judgement is based on the premise of our believe in the gospel of Christ. If we believe we are save, if we do not we are condemned regardless of moral uprightness.

Let me quote the relevant portion just for you

Matthew 7:21-23 King James Version (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Substantiate the highlighted. How do you arrive at the idea that their judgement is by 'works' and this quite 'different' from what you will undergo supposing you are justified?

Are they not condemned on the basis of RELATIONSHIP with Christ?

shdemidemi:


Vooks

You did not answer my questions, why?

'Many' of Matthew 7 is referring to a people who will be judged unto salvation by 'dos and don'ts' i.e by Works.

This sort of judgement is not applicable where there is 'justification' by grace through Christ. Under the dispensation of the Holy Spirit, judgement is based on the premise of our believe in the gospel of Christ. If we believe we are save, if we do not we are condemned regardless of moral uprightness.

vooks:
Let me quote the relevant portion just for you

Matthew 7:21-23 King James Version (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Substantiate the highlighted. How do you arrive at the idea that their judgement is by 'works' and this quite 'different' from what you will undergo supposing you are justified?
Are they not condemned on the basis of RELATIONSHIP with Christ?

Do you intentionally ignore questions? That is not the best way to engage in an objective debate.

We have a bible proof that some were invoking the name of Jesus to wrought miracles at that time and so many more will do the same after rapture even as they do now.

There are three groups this passage can possibly be addressing, these groups are-

1)The people before the death and resurrection of Jesus who are not under Grace, their sins had not been justified so they will be judged based on their wrong doings ..

2)The people that will commit this form of travesty after rapture. This group would also be judged as guilty based on their wicked works.

3) The justified group under the dispensation of Grace who are not judged by works but by Grace if they [size=20pt]believe[/size].

This is not much about what we think is right but what the bible says. Left to me, I might do things differently but I am in no position to advice God on how I think He should administer judgement.

Hiswordxray:
Someone who is justified is not a sinner but is Holy, righteous, faultless blameless in the sight of God (Col 1:22 & Eph 1:4)
Someone who is in Christ can never sin because there is no sin in Christ (1John 3:5&9).

paxonel:

God bless you for this
someone who is in Christ (everybody in Christianity ) can be committing the worst sin, but God's eyes are closed because of Christ, he sees nothing the guy is doing, everything he does is righteous, righteous, righteous
this is the extent of justification

No this is also wrong. This is the opposite extreme of the doctrine. We have extreme legalism and extreme liberalism. This is extreme liberalism.

One, a christian can sin.

1John 5v16 -If any man SEE HIS BROTHER SIN A SIN which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life....

1Cor 5v1 -It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the heathen, that one should have his father's wife.

And two; God's eyes are not close to the sins and carnalities of His children, believers in Christ Jesus.

Jesus saw and rebuked sternly the sins of the seven churches in Revelation.

Rev 2v5 -Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and I will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

He saw their sins, rebuked them for it, and demanded repentance. And promised chastisements if they don't repent.

Jesus repeated this with about 5 of the 7 churches.

We should not assume he doesn't see our fornication, malice, lies and greed etc. They grieve His Holy Spirit in us.

Rev 2v14-16 -But I have a few things against thee, because there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols and to commit fornication.

So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and I will fight against thee with the sword of my mouth.

See? Jesus sees our sins, our carnalities and our false doctrines. He hates them and he rebukes them. He demands repentance for them; and he chastises refusal to repent of them.

shdemidemi:



Do you intentionally ignore questions? That is not the best way to engage in an objective debate.

We have a bible proof that some were invoking the name of Jesus to wrought miracles at that time and so many more will do the same after rapture even as they do now.

There are three groups this passage can possibly be addressing, these groups are-

1)The people before the death and resurrection of Jesus who are not under Grace, their sins had not been justified so they will be judged based on their wrong doings ..

2)The people that will commit this form of travesty after rapture. This group would also be judged as guilty based on their wicked works.

3) The justified group under the dispensation of Grace who are not judged by works but by Grace if they [size=20pt]believe[/size].

This is not much about what we think is right but what the bible says. Left to me, I might do things differently but I am in no position to advice God on how I think He should administer judgement.

Please don't bring rapture into this.
The doctrines of rapture is diverse and controversial.
Rapture should be a different topic on it's own.

ayoku777:




No this is also wrong. This is the opposite extreme of the doctrine. We have extreme legalism and extreme liberalism. This is extreme liberalism.

One, a christian can sin.

1John 5v16 -If any man SEE HIS BROTHER SIN A SIN which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life....

1Cor 5v1 -It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the heathen, that one should have his father's wife.

And two; God's eyes are not close to sins and carnalities of His children, believers in Christ Jesus.

Jesus saw and rebuked sternly the sins of the seven churches in Revelation.

Rev 2v5 -Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and I will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

He saw their sins, rebuked them for it, and demanded repentance. With promise consequence if they don't repent.

Jesus repeated this with about 5 of the 7 churches.

He sees our sins and is not indifferent about it. He rebukes it and demands repentance.

We should not assume he doesn't see our fornication, malice, lies and greed etc. They grieve is Holy Spirit in us.

When the bible says we cannot sin as christians, I think it is vital for us to understand what that means. Every true Christian have a dual personality or two natures- A righteousness nature and a sinful nature.

The righteousness nature is the actual person but covered in a sinful body. The righteousness nature is also known as the new man, birthed at regeneration. He cannot sin, He is Holy, He is not visible, He cannot die but can be left dormant if not nourished by the Word of God. Only Christians have this nature- (not because they worked for it but because they believe the gospel)

The visible man is the carrier/conveyor of the sinful nature. He sins, he is in constant enmity with God, He is depraved, He will eventually die, He is not Holy.

Paul used these two personalities interchangeably in Romans 7

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 'me' is the real man/inward man here

22 For I delight in the law of God after the [size=22pt]inward man[/size]:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Happy New Year guys.
@OP, ah I saw my name and thought to comment though it has been done justice to already. @Bidam, @Candour @Ayoku's comments seem to cover it all.

ayoku777:

Yes, carnality can degenerate into lukewarmness, lukewarmness into spiritual indifference, and indifference into unbelief. But until unbelief, he is still saved and righteous by imputation.

I think I particularly like @Ayoku's comment here and more or less sums it all up.
I believe unbelief starts when we start overlooking and 'It doesn't mean'-ing what Jesus says or how He acts in the belief that whatever we do we are covered since we have righteosness in us.
As was said, sinning as falling and rising is different from falling and wallowing and even becoming indifferent about it.

For every scripture word you quote, you throw in ten presumptuous/junk sentences and am having a hard time separating your garbage from scriptures. That's why am focused on this particular statement

Who told you after rapture people will be saved by works and not grace? Will we have anything other than eternity after rapture?
You have invented three types of Christians; pre-resurrection, post-resurrection-pre-rapture and post-resurrection-post-rapture and for each of these, you have crafted DIFFERENT means of attaining salvation.

Jesus BEFORE his resurrection gave power to cast out demons and perform miracles to very FEW numbering 72. You are saying the MANY mentioned are some of these who somewhat failed to attain eternity despite invoking the name of Jesus. For this to happen, they must have died BEFORE Jesus resurrected. Clearly it is utterly illogical to claim that this verse was addressing the backslidden pre-resurrection miracle workers who died BEFORE resurrection, who needed 'works' for their salvation

At the back of your head you can see this and this is why you INVENT another group I called post-rerurrection-post-rapture who are saved by something else other than grace but by works. Apparently according to Apostle Shdemidemi, salvation by grace and faith has an expiry date but the power in the name of Jesus to cast out demons and heal survives rapture into an age where we have faith and works formula of salvation

The group Jesus is addressing fall into this group but they MUST NEVER fall into the present post-resurrection-post-pre-rapture age where faith in Christ secures you eternity regardless of whatever you become or do after having this faith

I could ask you to prove from scriptures the expiry of salvation by faith and the rebirth of salvation by works but am sure you can't, you will just ramble about. Please revere the Word of God above your garbage

shdemidemi:



Do you intentionally ignore questions? That is not the best way to engage in an objective debate.

We have a bible proof that some were invoking the name of Jesus to wrought miracles at that time and so many more will do the same after rapture even as they do now.

There are three groups this passage can possibly be addressing, these groups are-

1)The people before the death and resurrection of Jesus who are not under Grace, their sins had not been justified so they will be judged based on their wrong doings ..

2)The people that will commit this form of travesty after rapture. This group would also be judged as guilty based on their wicked works.

3) The justified group under the dispensation of Grace who are not judged by works but by Grace if they [size=20pt]believe[/size].

This is not much about what we think is right but what the bible says. Left to me, I might do things differently but I am in no position to advice God on how I think He should administer judgement.

Hiswordxray:

Please don't bring rapture into this.
The doctrines of rapture is diverse and controversial.
Rapture should be a different topic on it's own.

1 Thess 3

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


The above event is what I call 'rapture', I see nothing controversial in it. I did not mention it just for the sake of it, I did because a question demanded an answer that relates with the end of the church(Grace oriented) as we have it today.

shdemidemi:


When the bible says we cannot sin as christians, I think it is vital for us to understand what that means. Every true Christian have a dual personality or two natures- A righteousness nature and a sinful nature.

The righteousness nature is the actual person but covered in a sinful body. The righteousness nature is also known as the new man, birthed at regeneration. He cannot sin, He is Holy, He is not visible, He cannot die but can be left dormant if not nourished by the Word of God. Only Christians have this nature- (not because they worked for it but because they believe the gospel)

The visible man is the carrier/conveyor of the sinful nature. He sins, he is in constant enmity with God, He is depraved, He will eventually die, He is not Holy.

Paul used these two personalities interchangeably in Romans 7

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 'me' is the real man/inward man here

22 For I delight in the law of God after the [size=22pt]inward man[/size]:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Thanks for this. Well said. You articulated my thoughts.

Except that what you call 'righteous nature' and 'sinful nature' I call 'regenerated spirit' and 'unreformed soul'.

Thanks.