According to Shdemidemi,
Revelation is SET in a future time t and a different 'dispensation' where salvation will be a REWARD for works, 'unlike' presently where it is by faith. That way, ANY portion of the same suggesting loss of salvation/eternity for believers is REJECTED as being irrelevant for the 'present dispensation'

Initially, he resisted the obvious fact of non-overcomers being blotted out of the book of life. Note he was even embarrassed of admitting that blotting out means loss of salvation. When overwhelmed by reason and sound diving of the Word, instead of admitting, he changed gears and flashed the Dispensation card where he tacitly claims that even if believers can be blotted out of the book of life and lose their salvation, that ONLY happens at a different future Graceless Dispensation

This is a dead end because the argument now shifts from Rev 3:5 to whether there is a future dispensation, and whether under that dispensation the rules of salvation are different from the present.

He has resisted the other evidence in Hebrews, dismissing it as a Jewish text. Same case with Peter. Romans he unsuccessfully attempted this. It begs the question. Do we have different rules or formula for salvation one for Jews and one for Gentiles? In other words, is God's message DISTORTED by the apostles and their audiences biases?

ayoku777:


You're right, that is by the way. Because there is no where in the bible that scripture says, there will be a resurrection and rapture before the tribulation.

God cut off Israel after they rejected Christ as a nation. And salvation became a personal thing for every individual, jew or gentile.

And how does all this proof that those who don't overcome will not have their names blotted out.

What is the flip side of this?

Johnny, If you get an A in physics I will not collect your phone from you.

Please give me PROOF of Holy Spirit residing in believers temporarily now that you believe that. What's your basis?

shdemidemi:


For your question, you probably want me to anwer it a thousand times before you acknowledge it... I say YES YES YES......


On those two occurrences, what do you think they mean?

Don't evade the question.

ayoku777:

God cut off Israel after they rejected Christ as a nation. And salvation became a personal thing for every individual, jew or gentile.

And how does all this proof that those who don't overcome will not have their names blotted out.

.

God judged Israel the moment Christ left heaven. The ax was already at the root of the tree. Jesus came to die- that was His main mission on earth. His death means one thing to the nation of Israel- JUDGEMENT.

According to God's foreknowledge He judged the nation of Israel.

ayoku777:
Johnny, If you get an A in physics I will not collect your phone from you.

Must there be a flip side? What if Johnny never gets to do the physics?

Moreover, the analogy isn't fitting cos Jesus isn't addressing just johnny but every one present.

'He that overcometh'

Excellent
1. By saying he will not blot out their names from the book of life, can we wisely infer that their names are ALREADY in the book?
2. Overcomers names will not be blotted form the book of life, NON-Overcomers' name will be blotted out of the book of life. Do you agree?

shdemidemi:


He says they will be clothed in white raiment, he will not blot out their name out of the book of life, he will confess their name before His Father, and before his angels.

shdemidemi:


Must there be a flip side?

Yes when you are given a CONDITIONAL promise
a CEO to his sales team; 'If you make $200M Gross sales, I will not lay you off'. The only assurance of escaping being laid off is meeting $200M target. He is equally saying that they will be sent packing if they don't meet the $200M target

What if Johnny never gets to do the physics?

Why would I promise Johnny reward for getting an A in Physics and he is not taking Physics?

Moreover, the analogy isn't fitting cos Jesus isn't addressing just johnny but every one present.

'He that overcometh'

Brilliant!
The letter was addressed to the ENTIRE church. Out of this, ONLY the overcomers;
1. get white raiments
2. Retain their names in the book of life
3. have Jesus confessing their names before the father

vooks:
Please give me PROOF of Holy Spirit residing in believers temporarily now that you believe that. What's your basis?

My dear friend, I begged you not to evade the question on 'dispensation' but you did, why?

I never said Holy Spirit dwell in believers temporarily, He lives in us permanently. In the Old Testament i.e before Christianity He temporarily enables whomever He comes upon.

Thank you.
If Holy Spirit temporarily enabled whomever He came upon, that is HISTORICAL. So you can't say He enables yet He last did that 2000 years ago, you say He enabled.
In the past, God WINKED at sin but NOW He is commanding everyone to repent.
In the past, God spoke in diverse ways, in these last days He HAS spoken

So, can we agree that EVERY instance the Holy Spirit resides or comes upon a believer( He does not infill unbelievers), it is PERMANENT?

We will tackle dispensation later on. And if you are careful enough, we did. Jog your memory

shdemidemi:


My dear friend, I begged you not to evade the question on 'dispensation' but you did, why?

I never said Holy Spirit dwell in believers temporarily, He lives in us permanently. In the Old Testament i.e before Christianity He temporarily enables whomever He comes upon.

Alwaystrue:
@Ayoku,
Yes i believe so too even if the person amy not fully grasp it that time but as he begins to follow Jesus and the Spirit He will start gaining understanding. That is why he will need need tbe Spirit to guide him in all truth.




On the scripture you quoted about works, could you share your thoughts on the works that Paul may have been speaking about here especially since he likened it to a builder building with different materials of gold, wood etc?
I once posted after i meditated on that 1 Corinthians 3 scripture that the works stated there could be hypocritical works of good to show off or receive the praise of men or works done without the right heart and not evil works actually. That is why the different qualities of building materials were mentioned. I don't think evil works can even be classified as a building material in this case.
My view however.

You're right too, honestly.

But letting scripture interprete scripture; Paul, while talking to Timothy somewhat defined what is considered as works of wood, hay and stubble.

2Timothy 2v19-21 -Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name Christ depart from iniquity.

But in a great house, there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour,

If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

I think from this scripture, it is safe to imply that the great house is the body of Christ, while wood and earth vessels in the house represent believers who don't purge themselves of iniquity. And gold and silver are those who purge themselves.

But vessels of wood and earth are not cast out of the great house, but they are not used for the most noble or honourable work either.

I think wood, hay and stubble represent iniquity -the lifestyle and works of believers who don't live a spirit-led life. It represents works done in the flesh.

My view

frosbel:


The real thing must have much counterfeit like you said , so tell me , which one is the counterfeit, yours or vook's or the hundred others ??

Hmm.

None is counterfeit. I believe we both believe the inerrancy of scripture but well apart in our understanding or interpretation. We will keep learning and learning from the book. Thanks for your concern(s).

shdemidemi:


God judged Israel the moment Christ left heaven. The ax was already at the root of the tree. Jesus came to die- that was His main mission on earth. His death means one thing to the nation of Israel- JUDGEMENT.

According to God's foreknowledge He judged the nation of Israel.




Must there be a flip side? What if Johnny never gets to do the physics?

Moreover, the analogy isn't fitting cos Jesus isn't addressing just johnny but every one present.

'He that overcometh'

No No No! You're wrong!

God did not cut off the Jew UNTIL they rejected Christ.

Romans 11v20 -Well; BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF THEY WERE BROKEN OFF, and thou standeth by faith.

Even after Jesus died and rose from the dead, He still told His disciples to begin preaching the gospel from Jerusalem, and Judea and in Samaria.

Many times you will hear Paul say "To the Jew first" in Romans 1.

God did not judge and cut off Israel, the moment Jesus left heaven. Or even after he rose from the dead. They were rejected after they rejected Christ and His gospel.

And what do you mean that must there be a flip side and what if Johnny never gets to do physics?

Will I ask him to get an A in physics if he won't take physics. And isn't the flip side of it be that if he doesn't get an A, I will collect the phone?

He that overcomes I will not blot out His name from the book of life. Has exactly the same flip.

And what difference does it make if Jesus is talking to an individual or to everyone in the church?

Ok here's another flip assingment to a larger audience.

Anyone who gets an A in physics will not be removed from the state bursary.

What's the flip side of this?

vooks:
Thank you.
If Holy Spirit temporarily enabled whomever He came upon, that is HISTORICAL. So you can't say He enables yet He last did that 2000 years ago, you say He enabled.
In the past, God WINKED at sin but NOW He is commanding everyone to repent.
In the past, God spoke in diverse ways, in these last days He HAS spoken

So, can we agree that EVERY instance the Holy Spirit resides or comes upon a believer( He does not infill unbelievers), it is PERMANENT?

We will tackle dispensation later on. And if you are careful enough, we did. Jog your memory

Who says He is not enabling us today, you have so much on your mind that you think I am saying but in actual fact I am not saying them.

It is no rocket science to grasp the capacity at which the Holy Spirit operated in the old to the roles He plays in today's church.

May be, if you deal with this issue of dispensation and stop avoiding it, you will realise what 'justification' is all about in the context of today's church.

ayoku777:

You're right too, honestly.
But letting scripture interprete scripture; Paul, while talking to Timothy somewhat defined what is considered as works of wood, hay and stubble.
2Timothy 2v19-21 -Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name Christ depart from iniquity.
But in a great house, there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour,
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
I think from this scripture, it is safe to imply that the great house is the body of Christ, while wood and earth vessels in the house represent believers who don't purge themselves of iniquity. And gold and silver are those who purge themselves.
But vessels of wood and earth are not cast out of the great house, but they are not used for the most noble or honourable work either.
I think wood, hay and stubble represent iniquity -the lifestyle and works of believers who don't live a spirit-led life. It represents works done in the flesh.
My view

Uhm! Various angles. Thanks for bringing it to more light but you have given me an even deeper understanding. Thanks. I only read the I Corinthians 3 in context and that is below:


I Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Seems in this I Cor 3 case it is a micro-case showing man (us) and our materials(our works) unlike in 2 Timothy 2:19-21 that shows the big picture of Christ and his materials (us his people)...I hope you get me.

This is because if you just take a step further I Cor. 3:17 says:
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Now look at Paul saying if any man DEFILE the temple of God (we are His temple) because the Spirit of God dwells in us, God will destroy that man. Now we can ask what defiles a man? Jesus said it here:

Matthew 15:18-19
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20b These are the things which defile a man

That is how I was able to deduce that evil works are not the types of materials that build the house, they are actually what defiles it. The good works not done well, or done with one's heart in hypocrisy may be the works that get burned. There might actually be some works of Gold and precious stones that will get rewarded.

The reason I asked is because I desired we be on the SAME page namely, ANY residence of the Holy Spirit in a believer from Pentecost is permanent. Just that. Thanks

shdemidemi:


Who says He is not enabling us today, you have so much on your mind that you think I am saying but in actual fact I am not saying them.

It is no rocket science to grasp the capacity at which the Holy Spirit operated in the old to the roles He plays in today's church.

May be, if you deal with this issue of dispensation and stop avoiding it, you will realise what 'justification' is all about in the context of today's church.

Alwaystrue:



Uhm! Various angles. Thanks for bringing it to more light but you have given me an even deeper understanding. Thanks. I only read the I Corinthians 3 in context and that is below:


I Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Seems in this I Cor 3 case it is a micro-case showing man (us) and our materials unlike in 2 Timothy 2:19-21 that shows the big picture of Christ and his materials...I hope you get me.

This is because if you just take a step further I Cor. 3:17 says:
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Now look at Paul saying if any man DEFILE the temple of God ( we are His temple) because the Spirit of God dwells in us, God will destroy that man. Now we can ask what defiles a man? Jesus said it here:

Matthew 15:18-19
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20b These are the things which defile a man

That is how I was able to deduce that evil works are not the types of materials that build the house, they are actually what defiles it. The good works not done well, or done with one's heart in hypocrisy may be the works that get burned.

I get you very well and I understand.

1Cor is talking about believers and their type of works. While Timothy is talking about Christ and His vessels.

You are saying the works in 1Cor are not works of the flesh but good works done in the flesh.

While I am trying to say they could be both. Asin anything not done in the Spirit.

But I get you and will do more study. Thanks.

ayoku777:

I get you very well and I understand.
1Cor is talking about believers and their type of works. While Timothy is talking about Christ and His vessels.
You are saying the works in 1Cor are not works of the flesh but good works done in the flesh.
While I am trying to say they could be both. Asin anything not done in the Spirit.
But I get you and will do more study. Thanks.

You must have done shorthand in school.
Yes, you basically summarised. Yes we all need to continualy do more study.

Thanks for your post. We keep learning cos i did not even see some things till you explained it.

ayoku777:



No No No! You're wrong!

God did not cut off the Jew UNTIL they rejected Christ.

Romans 11v20 -Well; BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF THEY WERE BROKEN OFF, and thou standeth by faith.

Even after Jesus died and rose from the dead, He still told His disciples to begin preaching the gospel from Jerusalem, and Judea and in Samaria.

Many times you will hear Paul say "To the Jew first" in Romans 1.

God did not judge and cut off Israel, the moment Jesus left heaven. Or even after he rose from the dead. They were rejected after they rejected Christ and His gospel.

And what do you mean that must there be a flip side and what if Johnny never gets to do physics?

Will I ask him to get an A in physics if he won't take physics. And isn't the flip side of it be that if he doesn't get an A, I will collect the phone?

He that overcomes I will not blot out His name from the book of life. Has exactly the same flip.

And what difference does it make if Jesus is talking to an individual or to everyone in the church?

Ok here's another flip assingment to a larger audience.

Anyone who gets an A in physics will not be removed from the state bursary.

What's the flip side of this?

Why was John the baptist sent to the nation of Israel?

Why did Jesus come?

Check Luke 13:6, one of the parables that depict judgement upon the nation of Israel.

The dresser being John the baptist

Fig tree is Israel

Owner of vineyard- God

vooks:
The reason I asked is because I desired we be on the SAME page namely, ANY residence of the Holy Spirit in a believer from Pentecost is permanent. Just that. Thanks

The initiation period was of course at Pentecost but we must understand it was a fading away period. A shift from the Jewish nation to the church. The book of Acts is a progressive and historical record of this shift from the Old to the New.

shdemidemi:
He says they will be clothed in white raiment, he will not blot out their name out of the book of life, he will confess their name before His Father, and before his angels.

vooks:
Excellent
1. By saying he will not blot out their names from the book of life, can we wisely infer that their names are ALREADY in the book?
2. Overcomers names will not be blotted form the book of life, NON-Overcomers' name will be blotted out of the book of life. Do you agree?

vooks salivating and patiently corralling since 1000 BC
I fleetingly saw vooks almost bring the halo down the neck to choke with and go for the kill

MEILYN:
This discussion is too big for me .... Anyway, the truth is, I don't do religion anymore.... I hope the grace masters e.g Goshen put you through ..... Oh Sukkot where art thou?

my bros, trust the weekend is going nicely and jejely. i go peruse the discussion later although i am scared it is one of those discussions where people drop long thesis lmao

BabaGnoni:



vooks salivating and patiently corralling since 1000 BC
I fleetingly saw vooks almost bring the halo down the neck to choke with and go for the kill

See me see the bobo o..setting up a snare for me like one detective wey no know work

Let us now go back to Hebrews


Hebrews 6:4-6King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

from verse 4, 'those'
1. WERE enlightened
2. Tasted of the heavenly gift
3. Were made PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost
4. Tasted the good word of the LORD and the powers of the world to come

What do you understand by this phrase, 'were made PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost'?

μέτοχος (metochos)
Strng: G3353
GK: G3581

a partaker, Heb. 3:1, 14; 6:4; 12:8; an associate, partner, fellow, Lk. 5:7; Heb. 1:9

shdemidemi:



The initiation period was of course at Pentecost but we must understand it was a fading away period. A shift from the Jewish nation to the church. The book of Acts is an historical record of this shift from the Old to the New.

There is always a way out my broda,
Playing dumb

BabaGnoni:



vooks salivating and patiently corralling since 1000 BC
I fleetingly saw vooks almost bring the halo down the neck to choke with and go for the kill

vooks:
Let us now go back to Hebrews


Hebrews 6:4-6King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

from verse 4, 'those'
1. WERE enlightened
2. Tasted of the heavenly gift
3. Were made PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost
4. Tasted the good word of the LORD and the powers of the world to come

What do you understand by this phrase, 'were made PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost'?

My friend, I have no problem answering your questions. All I ask is for us to deal with the issue of 'dispensation', it will sure expand our horizon on this topic. Paul spoke about it, did it really mean anything?

Then please do
What do you understand by this phrase, 'were made PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost'?

μέτοχος (metochos)
Strng: G3353
GK: G3581

a partaker, Heb. 3:1, 14; 6:4; 12:8; an associate, partner, fellow, Lk. 5:7; Heb. 1:9

shdemidemi:


My friend, I have no problem answering your questions. [size=4pt]All I ask is for us to deal with the issue of 'dispensation', it will sure expand our horizon on this topic. Paul spoke about it, did it really mean anything?[/size]

shdemidemi:
See me see the bobo o..setting up a snare for me like one detective wey no know work

vooks is a sniper, highly trained marksman as it is, picks and takes targets out, one by one, from a distance with exceeding capabilities
and you I know you are MI5/MI6 trained so it is a matter of Isaiah 54:17
- you match each other

BabaGnoni:

vooks is a sniper, highly trained marksman as it is, picks and takes targets out, one by one, from a distance with exceeding capabilities
and you I know you are MI5/MI6 trained so it is a matter of Isaiah 54:17
- you match each other

MI5 ke...noooo. I am only presenting what I read from scriptures. Take me outside sripture, this guy go finish me.

vooks:
Then please do
What do you understand by this phrase, 'were made PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost'?

μέτοχος (metochos)
Strng: G3353
GK: G3581

a partaker, Heb. 3:1, 14; 6:4; 12:8; an associate, partner, fellow, Lk. 5:7; Heb. 1:9

[size=40pt]DISPENSATION[/size], Explain.

shdemidemi:
MI5 ke...noooo.
I am only presenting what I read from scriptures. Take me outside sripture, this guy go finish me.

There is MI5, and there is MI5 wink wink

Please educate me on what DISPENSATION is.

But before that, Please answer this question1 as coherently as your brains can afford, unless you are lying and have PROBLEMS answering it

Then please do
What do you understand by this phrase, 'were made PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost'?

μέτοχος (metochos)
Strng: G3353
GK: G3581

a partaker, Heb. 3:1, 14; 6:4; 12:8; an associate, partner, fellow, Lk. 5:7; Heb. 1:9

shdemidemi:


My friend, I have no problem answering your questions. [size=4pt]All I ask is for us to deal with the issue of 'dispensation', it will sure expand our horizon on this topic. Paul spoke about it, did it really mean anything?[/size]

shdemidemi:




DISPENSATION, Explain.

And don't forget these as well

Excellent
1. By saying he will not blot out their names from the book of life, can we wisely infer that their names are ALREADY in the book?
2. Overcomers names will not be blotted form the book of life, NON-Overcomers' name will be blotted out of the book of life. Do you agree?

shdemidemi:


He says they will be clothed in white raiment, he will not blot out their name out of the book of life, he will confess their name before His Father, and before his angels.

vooks:
Please educate me on what DISPENSATION is.

But before that, Please answer this question1 as coherently as your brains can afford, unless you are lying and have PROBLEMS answering it

Then please do
What do you understand by this phrase, 'were made PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost'?

μέτοχος (metochos)
Strng: G3353
GK: G3581

a partaker, Heb. 3:1, 14; 6:4; 12:8; an associate, partner, fellow, Lk. 5:7; Heb. 1:9

There is no point doing this ping pong style debate. If you can't comprehensively explain what 'dispensation' means then we should not be having this debate at all cos you won't understand the other tricky parts.

it is pointless veering off Hebrews to pursue Dispensationalism imagined by John Darby, a subject with thousands of pages on it. This is classic Shdemidemi running away from the Truth.

Let me grant you, whatever you imagine Dispensation is, I will gladly work with that. With that behind us, Can you please answer my questions? Line upon line, precept upon precept

What do you understand by this phrase, 'were made PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost'?

shdemidemi:


There is no point doing this ping pong style debate. If you can't comprehensively explain what 'dispensation' means then we should not be having this debate at all cos you won't understand the other tricky parts.