FortresOfChrist:
I have been studying the doctrine of Justification for some time and I must say it's a deep doctrine that beats the human mind of what the Lord our fortress did for us. How can a just God declare a sinner righteous even with their sins because they are in Christ Lord our fortress and some still say they have sin in their lives? Another issue is how can a sinner be declared guiltless without works? This doctrine of justification and righteousness by faith is really the Lord our fortress doing. So my question is is one who is justified and declared righteous still a sinner? Does the bible teaches that one can be righteous, justified and at the same time be sinner after being declared justified? I need my brethren in this discussion please.

Invited: Everyone
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[b]let me add my two cents. listen, the bible is not written for many to understand. the bible is written for very few to understand. many are called but only few are given the hidden manna ( the keys ) to unlock the bible. 99 percent of what is called biblical breakdown today is derived from the darkness that the world is currently in. its all heresy and nonsense. its religious nonsense. listen, there is a method to how the bible is written. you would be surprised to know that the contents and prophesies in the old testament from the prophets starting from isaiah on down to malachi is newer than the new testament. the prophets were prophesying about the caucasian empire aka USA and europe, while the new testament is just before that period. the prophets of the old testament were writing about a post european rennaisance world while the new testament is about byzantine era. the new testament is not an all inclusive book. it is a letter between the saints who are out gathering the second fruits from the gentile empires although you can apply the principles to your life but you cannot put yourself in the structure of the new testament because it is not written for you. the people who got grace, which grace means favor and pardon of sin, in the new testament is the saints. they needed this forgiveness of sin because they can be killed going around the world to hostile gentile nations to preach the gospel, but if their sins are pardoned, then God can seal them and give them his spiritual power over all that is on earth and this way they will have no fear and can comfortably go into hostile countries to preach[/b]

luke 2 vs 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, <<< SO THE PURPOSE OF GRACE AND FORGIVENESS OF SINS IS SO THAT THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL WHO ARE THE SAINTS CAN GO AND PREACH WITHOUT FEAR CUZ YOU KNOW WHEN YOU HAVE SIN ON YOU, THE DEVIL IS STRONGER THAN YOU. BUT IF YOU ARE BLAMELESS THEN YOU HAVE THE PROTECTION OF GOD AND NOTHING CAN HAPPEN TO YOU. IF YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY DEAD THE DEVIL HAS POWER OVER YOU. SIN IS WHAT MAKES YOU SPIRITUALLY DEAD. SO THAT SIN HAS TO BE FORGIVEN

rev 11 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. <<< AFTER FORGIVING THEIR SINS AND GRACE THEY GOT SPIRITUAL POWERS

1 CORINTHIANS 15 VS 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law <<< SO IF YOU HAVE NO SIN THEN YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY ALIVE AND IF YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY ALIVE YOU HAVE POWER OVER SATAN AND ALL EVIL

hebrews 2 vs 14 he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; <<< SO THE DEVIL HAS POWER OVER SINNERS WHO ARE SPIRITUALLY DEAD. BUT IF YOUR SINS ARE FORGIVEN ? HE HAS NO POWER OVER YOU. YOU CAN WALK INTO A WAR ZONE AND NOTHING WILL HAPPEN TO YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE ANGELS PROTECTING YOU. AND THESE SAINTS WHO HAD TO GO THROUGH HOSTILE GENTILE COUNTRIES TO PREACH DURING THE BYZANTINE ERA ARE CALLED THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL. AND THESE ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO GOT GRACE AND FORGIVENESS OF SINS. SO WHEN YOU READ THE NEW TESTAMENT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO READ IT AND APPLY THE PRINCIPLES AND NOT READ IT AND PLACE YOURSELF IN IT LIKE YOU ARE THE PERSON IT IS TALKING TO.

MATTHEW 15 V 24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. <<< THESE ARE THE PEOPLE WHOM SALVATION CAME FOR. THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL NOT YOU

IN CONCLUSION : and to answer your question, the only sinners that were declared righteous was the saints not you. that part of the bible is not applicable to you. because if you have been declared righteous and guiltless then you would be saved from this world meaning you would be fully protected from anything happening to you because you are one of Gods special commodities on earth. being saved means FULL IMMUNITY. and you would be saved from yourself which translates as that part of you that likes to sin will be removed so you cant sin again. once you have been saved from yourself and from the world, then you can live for a thousand years like methuselah and the men of old. lets take an example. myles munroes plane crashed and he died at sixty something years old. was he saved ? no he was not cuz if he was saved that would not happen to him. so the day is coming when all those who are truly saved would be revealed and then you would see men living to thousands of years on earth again


SO THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BEING DECLARED GUILTLESS. WHATEVER SINS YOU COMMIT YOU WILL PAY FOR IT. BEING DECLARED GUILTLESS WHEN YOU ARE COMMITTING SINS IS HERESY AND LIES MEANT TO KEEP YOU IN DARKNESS. THIS IS HERESY CONCOCTED IN A FALLEN WORLD.

lmao i complained about long thesis and then wrote a long thesis. i tried to truncate but it was impossible. i had to make all the points i made. pardon my hypocrisy people

vooks:
it is pointless veering off Hebrews to pursue Dispensationalism imagined by John Darby, a subject with thousands of pages on it. This is classic Shdemidemi running away from the Truth.

Let me grant you, whatever you imagine Dispensation is, I will gladly work with that. With that behind us, Can you please answer my questions? Line upon line, precept upon precept

What do you understand by this phrase, 'were made PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost'?

My friend, I have been asking you this question way before your 'Hebrew' question and that explains why I insist you answer it.

Giving a dumb answer won't count either plus you don't need to write a whole book on topic.

it means stewardship or an arranged plan or scheme.

Let me ask you something. What does it take for a Jew to be born again in 2015? Is it any different from an Igbo?

shdemidemi:


My friend, I have been asking you this question way before your 'Hebrew' question and that explains why I insist you answer it.

Giving a dumb answer won't count either plus you don't need to write a whole book on topic.

vooks:
it means stewardship or an arranged plan or scheme.

Let me ask you something. What does it take for a Jew to be born again in 2015? Is it any different from an Igbo?

Thanks Vooks

Can you please relate your definition to what you think Paul is talking about here-

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

vooks:

Let me ask you something. What does it take for a Jew to be born again in 2015? Is it any different from an Igbo?

absolutely the same.

If a Jew and an Igbo need the same formula for salvation,
1. why should we distinguish between an epistle whose primary audience is Jewish from that whose audience are Gentiles?

2. Did Paul's doctrine on salvation differ from Peter's,James'?

That verse is as self-explanatory as your moniker. What is there to relate? Indulge me

shdemidemi:


Thanks Vooks

Can you please relate your definition to what you think Paul is talking about here-

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:




absolutely the same.

vooks:
If a Jew and an Igbo need the same formula for salvation,
1. why should we distinguish between an epistle whose primary audience is Jewish from that whose audience are Gentiles?

2. Did Paul's doctrine on salvation differ from Peter's,James'?

That verse is as self-explanatory as your moniker. What is there to relate? Indulge me?

The problem is the brick wall and blindness that the Jewsish nation have been struck by-

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

It is much easier for an Igbo man to accept Christ to a Jewish man who is steeped in the ways and tradition of their fathers. God have since moved from Judaism to Christianity but the nation of Israel won't accept this truth as a nation.

2) The man that has the doctrine of salvation is Paul. The message of salvation was revealed to him by the risen Christ. He does personalise it a lot, you hear him say things like 'my gospel'.

He explained step by step details on how we can be saved. He unveiled God's wisdom and mysteries that was hid in the past. He was not taught by man but by the risen Christ through the Holy Spirit. Paul is more or less the speaker who held the office of the Holy Spirit.

ayoku777:


Paxonel is very right

That passage gave me problems too for a while. I had to pray to God and ask Him, who are those who called you Lord Lord and even did wonderful works in your name? Yet you never knew them?

Those guys are not christians, they are the jews who lived during the time of Christ's earthly ministry.

They followed Him, they called Him, “Lord, Lord”, they even did miracles and cast out devils in His name.

But they didn't do the will of the Father -which is to believe in Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of the living God, and in His death and resurrection.

These are not christians, these are jews who followed Jesus but didn't become christians.

Here are other scriptures that buttress this truth:

Luke 13v25-27 -When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lorf, open unto us; and He shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

But He shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me all ye workers of iniquity.

These are Jews who lived and followed Christ during His earthly ministry. They drank and ate in His presence, listened to Him preach in their streets and even called Him Lord.

Many of such believers even casted out demons in His name:

Luke 9v49 -And John answered and said, Master, we saw one CASTING OUT DEVILS IN THY NAME; and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us.

And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

They did many works in His name, but many of such deserted Christ before His death and resurrection and didn't follow on to become christians. They left Jesus before the New covenant.

These are the ones who will be told Depart from me I never knew you. Those who followed Jesus and called him Lord under the old covenant but didn't follow Him into the new (post-resurrection)

Anyone who calls Jesus Lord from the heart now under the new covenant has the Holy Spirit, he is not a worker of iniquity and Jesus knows him.

thanks a lot,
God bless people like paxonel, i never thought i will have proper understanding though a social media. i have been battling with this thing for years now. i went back to read the book of Matthew again, all what he said is true. i am still reading it

I respectfully differ for Pauline epistles can't save NOBODY on their own.

I also differ with your theory that Pauline inspiration was superior. He had no privilege of being taught by Jesus on earth, he received some of his training from Holy Spirit. But I can agree with you if you convince me that whatever Holy Spirt taught Paul was superior to what Jesus taught his disciples

Is the message of salvation in Hebrews distorted?

shdemidemi:


The problem is the brick wall and blindness that the Jewsish nation have been struck by-

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

It is much easier for an Igbo man to accept Christ to a Jewish man who is steeped in the ways and tradition of their fathers. God have since moved from Judaism to Christianity but the nation of Israel won't accept this truth as a nation.

2) The man that has the doctrine of salvation is Paul. The message of salvation was revealed to him by the risen Christ. He does personalise it a lot, you hear him say things like 'my gospel'.

He explained step by step details on how we can be saved. He unveiled God's wisdom and mysteries that was hid in the past. He was not taught by man but by the risen Christ through the Holy Spirit. Paul is more or less the speaker who held the office of the Holy Spirit.

shdemidemi:


It is much easier for an Igbo man to accept Christ to a Jewish man who is steeped in the ways and tradition of their fathers. God have since moved from Judaism to Christianity but the nation of Israel won't accept this truth as a nation.

While I believe you are of the devil, I did think that you at least had better arguments than most of the children here who follow after you. But the bolded has proved me wrong. lmao. "God has moved from Judaism to Christianity". There is so much wrong with that statement I would not know where to begin. But as we in the truth have contended with you enough, it is wise we mourn not the man the Most High has left in confusion.

Ah, by the way, the igbo man is an Israelite...as you know by now

vooks:
I respectfully differ for Pauline epistles can't save NOBODY on their own.

I also differ with your theory that Pauline inspiration was superior. He had no privilege of being taught by Jesus on earth, he received some of his training from Holy Spirit. But I can agree with you if you convince me that whatever Holy Spirt taught Paul was superior to what Jesus taught his disciples

Is the message of salvation in Hebrews distorted?

What Peter and James and Jesus(flesh) taught isn't so offensive to the jews if you take out the name of Jesus. All they had problems with was the name Jesus and who He said he is. With the message of Christ (risen) through Paul, the offence is beyond just calling the name 'Jesus', it multiplied with the demand for the renunciation of all their tenets, feast and traditions.

Paul told Peter and James at the conference in Jerusalem that they added nothing to what he was offering from Christ. God had moved but the jews were too conceited to follow.

The entire bible is one and none is distorted if placed in the right sequence and not lumped together like we do. The book of Hebrews like the name implies was primarily for the 'Hebrews', we must read the book with that in mind.

JesusisLord85:


While I believe you are of the devil, I did think that you at least had better arguments than most of the children here who follow after you. But the bolded has proved me wrong. lmao. "God has moved from Judaism to Christianity". There is so much wrong with that statement I would not know where to begin. But as we in the truth have contended with you enough, it is wise we mourn not the man the Most High has left in confusion.

Ah, by the way, the igbo man is an Israelite...as you know by now

My Israeli friend, I mean no offence, I know how much you like the traditions of your 'fathers' but I can't but quote scripture.

Neither is what Paul wrote offensive to the Jews if you remove Jesus. You are not making sense.

Hebrews was written for Hebrews. How does knowledge of the audience of the book affect your understanding of this passage?


Hebrews 6:4-6 King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

shdemidemi:


What Peter and James and Jesus(flesh) taught isn't so offensive to the jews if you take out the name of Jesus. All they had problems with was the name Jesus. With the message of Christ (risen) through Paul, the offence is beyond just calling the name 'Jesus', it multiplied with the demand the renunciation of all their tenets, feast and traditions.

Paul told Peter and James at the conference in Jerusalem that they added nothing to what he was offering from Christ. God had moved but the jews were too conceited to follow.

The entire bible is one and none is distorted if placed in the right sequence and not lumped together like we do. The book of Hebrews like the name implies was primarily for the 'Hebrews', we must read the book with that in mind.

vooks:
Neither is what Paul wrote offensive to the Jews if you remove Jesus. You are not making sense.

Hebrews was written for Hebrews. How does that change Hebrews 6 passage we are discussing. How does knowledge of the audience of the book affect your understanding of that passage?


Hebrews 6:4-6 King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Is it that difficult to be civil? If you think a thing don't make sense prove it or better still, walk away from it. I do that a lot on this forum.

I was not discussing that chapter with you I only answerd the question you asked in your penultimate post, apply some decorum little man.

Do you think Paul's message was offensive to the Jewish nation?

I have told you you don't make sense and I explained why. NONE of the NT writers and disciples would have offended anybody had they removed the name of Jesus from their teachings. How would you remove Jesus name from his teachings if you were Jesus (flesh)?

Now, grab some kleenex and do the needful and carry on. Crying isn't particularly masculine

shdemidemi:


Is it that difficult to be civil? If you think a thing don't make sense prove it or better still, walk away from it. I do that a lot on this forum.

I was not discussing that chapter with you I only answerd the question you asked in your penultimate post, apply some decorum little man.

Was Paul's message offensive to Jews? Your guess is as good as mine,Bidam's,Babagnoni's or even SonOfLucifer's.

Answer my question.
How does knowledge of the audience of the Hebrews epistle affect your comprehension of this particular passage?

Hebrews 6:4-6 King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Bear these facts in mind;
1. There are no distortions in the Hebrews or scriptures
2. The message of salvation for both Jews and Gentiles is the SAME
3. Holy Spirit resides in believers PERMANENTLY

shdemidemi:
Do you think Paul's message was offensive to the Jewish nation?

vooks:

Jesus gave 72 disciples power over demons and diseases and sent them out two by two in Luke 10 . You are claiming that the MANY refer to these.

Not all of them had died by the time Jesus died so you are being disingenuous in attempting to restrict the 'many' to a group of under 72 in count.

Let's try again; who are these MANY people who successfully invoked the name of Jesus in casting out demons,healing and are sent to hell?

Jesus started a journey from Galilee where he he did his first miracle, and ended the journey at Jerusalem where he was crucified. any time he finds those who were supposed to be his disciple he will ask them FOLLOW ME.
this is how he collected his disciples at first, from one city to the other,the miracles he did attracted most of them,until he has a multitude of disciples followed him to Jerusalem.
at the point he started the journey, the number of the disciples were few, this was the time he gave the available few (72 like you say ), power to cast out demons and heal the sick. these people were never Christians. But the number later grow to more than 5000.
Christianity started after crucifixion.
John the baptist and Judas Iscariot died, the over 5000 multitudes of disciples who ate bread and fishes ran away, only few of them (120 disciples ) started Christianity in the book of act.
the bottomline is, whether they were dead or they ran away, it is still the same thing. they missed out among those who started Christianity thereby missing the kingdom of heaven.

The BIGGER point is you have zero basis for claiming that when Jesus spoke of 'many' he was talking about miracle workers BEFORE his Passion and resurrection.

Now,why would you be so insistent (without proof)that the 'many' MUST be the pre-resurrection miracle workers?

It is because you are convinced or rather you BELIEVE/ASSUME that no justified believer can be thrown to hell and since ONLY believers can use the name of Jesus,the only believer/miracle workers who will be thrown in hell are the unjustified ones, the ones doing their thing BEFORE resurrection

Food for thought:
1. Do you honestly believe that of all that believed on Jesus during his ministry, ONLY 120 survived up to Pentecost?

2. Who were the firstfruits of Justification? What made them eligible?

paxonel:

Jesus started a journey from Galilee where he he did his first miracle, and ended the journey at Jerusalem where he was crucified. any time he finds those who were supposed to be his disciple he will ask them FOLLOW ME.
this is how he collected his disciples at first, from one city to the other,the miracles he did attracted most of them,until he has a multitude of disciples followed him to Jerusalem.
at the point he started the journey, the number of the disciples were few, this was the time he gave the available few (72 like you say ), power to cast out demons and heal the sick. these people were never Christians. Christianity started after crucifixion.
John the baptist and Judas Iscariot died, the over 5000 multitudes of disciples who ate bread and fishes ran away, only few of them (120 disciples ) started Christianity in the book of act.
the bottomline is, whether they were dead or they ran away, it is still the same thing. they missed out among those who started Christianity thereby missing the kingdom of heaven.

shdemidemi:


1)Could you please help with your definition of justification.

2)Is it in me to believe or is it by my power that I come to believe/have faith?

1) Justification is by faith. You can't remove the word faith and put only the word justification and get the right result. Once faith is removed then justification goes, it can't stand alone.

2) God can't force anything on you. If you choose not to believe and reject the faith He can't for it on you.

Rejecting the faith is rejecting justification and God can't force any of them on you. So Yes, Christians can loss justification.

paxonel:
Jesus started a journey from Galilee where he he did his first miracle, and ended the journey at Jerusalem where he was crucified. any time he finds those who were supposed to be his disciple he will ask them FOLLOW ME.

this is how he collected his disciples at first, from one city to the other,the miracles he did attracted most of them, until he has a multitude of disciples followed him to Jerusalem.

at the point he started the journey, the number of the disciples were few, this was the time he gave the available few (72 like you say ), power to cast out demons and heal the sick. these people were never Christians. But the number later grow to more than 5000.

Christianity started after crucifixion.
John the baptist and Judas Iscariot died, the over 5000 multitudes of disciples who ate bread and fishes ran away, only few of them (120 disciples) started Christianity in the book of act.
the bottomline is, whether they were dead or they ran away, it is still the same thing. they missed out among those who started Christianity thereby missing the kingdom of heaven.

bro, nothing personal and no offense meant, please oblige so we all can learn:
1. How many times is Christian mentioned in the Bible?
2. Under what circumstance, implication and background were each of the Christian mention done?
3. Did Jesus call Himself a Christian?
3b. If No, why didn't Jesus call Himself a Christian?
4. Did Jesus teach or preach Christianity?
4b. If No, why didn't Jesus teach or preach Christianity?
5. Did Jesus ever teach or preach that He came to start or build Christianity?
6. Did Jesus call the Kingdom of God Christianity or referred to it as Christianity?
7. Who started the Christian tag?
7b. How did the Christian tag come about and why did the Christian tag start?
8. Did the apostles or anyone else in the NT use the tag Christian, to call each other, to describe themselves or use it when greeting each other at all?
8b. If No, if not Christian, then what did the apostles or anyone else in the NT use?
9. Is there anything disparaging about the tag Christian like was nigger?
10. You said "...Christianity started in the book of act...", where exactly in Act? (i.e. what chapter and verse are you linking this with)

shdemidemi:
Thanks for the invite @Fortresofchrist

The term Justification can easily mean or be best put as 'just as if you never sinned'.

The detailed explanation of our justification can only be found in the Pauline epistles though we can discern from other parts of scripture that the teaching of justification has always been God's faithful plan for mankind.

Jesus began to tell parables as a way of judgement to unbelievers. He told parables to veil and hide the truth from those who were not part of Him. He started to talk to the people in languages they will not easily understand but would explain some of these things to his disiples though they themselves hardly understood what Christ really meant by his parables at that point in time.

Information regarding 'Justification by God' was presented to the people in so many ways through parables by Jesus. In one of his parables, He spoke about a prodigal son (represents every man born of Adam) who came back to his senses and reached for the father. He was Justified by His father and was given the fattest calf(God's word) to feast on.

He also spoke about hired hands(Gentiles, fatherless, Godless) that was employed late but was remunerated with the same wage as the workers who had been working for the master all day.

He talked about justification in most of his parables and there was one common factor in most. There is always one party that gets to be justified and the other that is always envious/bitter because they have WORKED. In the parable of the prodigal son, the brother that was 'good' felt the father was unfair to justify the son that he deemed 'bad'. In the other parable the workers who had toiled all day felt cheated by the master for placing the workers that came late to the scene an equal reward. WORK is always against GRACE just as the flesh constantly war against the spirit. But God remains a merciful father who does not pay His own children according to their 'work' but according to His mercy and Grace.

Paul simply unveiled all Jesus said in so many parables. The doctrine of Justification is the leg Grace stands upon through propitiation of our Sin. I think it becomes imperative to know of what 'sin' we have been justified. It is not merely the fact that one lie, or fornicate etc (those are acts of sin), God took sin by the jugular, from its very root which is from the fall of Man/adam.

Hence, we are no longer accused by the sin of Adam but we yet carry a body that was made in sin. Our body and its members are the main instrument of sin. They crave for sin even when our mind mean to do good. Our body and its member suppresses our mind and we give in more often than none. Falling for our fleshly desires does not make us less justified but it means we are yet carnal in the areas where we are subdued by our flesh to do its demands.

No man can completely wash himself off sinful acts- It is a work we have to consciously engage in until we are separated from our earthly/sinful body. That is no excuse or license to become lascivious for a sincere Christian of course, it can be for one who is not truly transformed. The fact remains that we are all a 'WORK-IN-PROGRESS' though we have been JUSTIFIED in the salvific sense..

Great post. I particularly loved the bolded.

italo:
Just to mention that Justification doesn't mean the justified wont sin.
He can sin.

I totally agree with you here.

italo:

Justification also doesn't mean the justified doesn't have to do anything else in order to go to heaven.
He does.

I totally disagree.

vooks:
Was Paul's message offensive to Jews? Your guess is as good as mine,Bidam's,Babagnoni's or even SonOfLucifer's.

You suddenly resort to dumb responses when you can't answer a question logically.

No question can come as easy as this- Was Paul's message offensive to the Jews and their traditions?

vooks:

Answer my question.
How does knowledge of the audience of the Hebrews epistle affect your comprehension of this particular passage?

Hebrews 6:4-6 King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Bear these facts in mind;
1. There are no distortions in the Hebrews or scriptures
2. The message of salvation for both Jews and Gentiles is the SAME
3. Holy Spirit resides in believers PERMANENTLY

Key Words in Hebrews 6 v 4 -

'once enlightened'

tasted

heavenly gift

partakers

Are you happy that we define these words in their pertinent context.

Gombs:


Bidam too. I think this is covered. But a little scripture that changed my mindset forever on what Jesus by God did for us. How He so loves us!

Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Once you're declared righteous (the moment you got born again) by God through Jesus Christ, you can stand boldly before God without guilt, condemnation or inferiority, because you are now God's righteousness in Christ Jesus. Meaning, after being justified by faith, we received the gift of righteousness, therefore we now have th ability to do right things ie sin no more.

But we err and sin, but that doesn't make us sinners, sinners do not hav the nature of God in them, and so, when we sin, because we have being justified, our advocate, Jesus will b there for us. But Paul asked, do we then continue in sin because grace abound?

We are sinners 1, because we have the sinful nature and 2. because we sin. It doesn't make us sinners in the first sense but it does make us sinners in the second sense. Our subsequent sins by acts will not be counted against us in that they do not affect our salvation. They do not ''unjustify'' us. We should ask for forgiveness of them and grace to overcome them and move on.

Hiswordxray:
Someone who is justified is not a sinner but is Holy, righteous, faultless blameless in the sight of God (Col 1:22 & Eph 1:4)
Someone who is in Christ can never sin because there is no sin in Christ (1John 3:5&9).

Unfortunately we do not attain perfection in this life.

Hiswordxray:

1) Justification is by faith. You can't remove the word faith and put only the word justification and get the right result. Once faith is removed then justification goes, it can't stand alone.

2) God can't force anything on you. If you choose not to believe and reject the faith He can't for it on you.

Rejecting the faith is rejecting justification and God can't force any of them on you. So Yes, Christians can loss justification.

What is FAITH in your own words?

italo:


Disqualified in the sense in bold below:

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.’

Those people were justified, since the were strong believers who even performed miracles in Jesus' name...yet they were disqualified.

He will say to them, I NEVER knew you.

shdemidemi:
God must be very busy wiping out names and replacing them when we ask for forgiveness.

If the condition for making heaven is based on what we do while under the blood of the lamb, then there is absolutely no need for the blood in the first place.

The blood is a shield from the angel of death, if death can yet whisk us from God's grasp then there is no GRACE in the first place. Ofcourse this isn't so, because
Romans 8
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's [size=28pt]elect[/size]? It is God that [size=28pt]justifieth[/size].

34 Who is he that [size=28pt]condemneth[/size]? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?....

Great post!

5solas:
We are sinners 1, because we have the sinful nature and 2. because we sin.
It doesn't make us sinners in the first sense but it does make us sinners in the second sense.
Our subsequent sins by acts will not be counted against us in that they do not affect our salvation.
They do not ''unjustify'' us.
We should ask for forgiveness of them and grace to overcome them and move on.

My sentiments exactly except for the sinner tag used on believers (i.e. saints or righteous)
One reverts back to a sinner after apostasy (i.e. after leaving the faith) then sin committed after is recorded and counted against one
Believers can leave the faith and do leave the faith
Almost every book or chapter in the NT warns about apostasy (i.e. leaving the faith)
If Once Saved, Always Saved is true, one wonders why almost all the books in the NT warns believers against apostasy

- EXCERPT -

saints that sin or saints sinning dont necessarily make them outright sinners
(i.e. this is because of 2 Corinthians 5:17, Romans 8:1-10, 1 John 1:8 and Hebrews 4:15-16)
- as a matter of fact & truth, if/when saints sin or when their world crumbles, saints can go/come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There, saints will receive His mercy, and will find assistance and grace to help saints when saints need it most (i.e. Hebrews 4:15-16)

https://www.nairaland.com/2076644/christian-justify-still-guilty-charged#29561144

- EXCERPT -

shdemidemi:


What is FAITH in your own words?

Faith is a word use by many people apart from Christians but if you are asking of the Christian Faith then I would give you this verse
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;" (Heb 12:3).
Faith is not something that comes and jump on you. Faith requires your effort because faith is looking (the gaze of the soul).
Faith don't just involves looking but also reacting to what you are looking at. You can't look without reacting, this is why James said "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26).

James also said something interesting I would like to quote "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2: 24).

Hiswordxray:
Faith is a word use by many people apart from Christians but if you are asking of the Christian Faith then I would give you this verse
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;" (Heb 12:3).
Faith is not something that comes and jump on you. Faith requires your effort because faith is looking (the gaze of the soul).
Faith don't just involves looking but also reacting to what you are looking at.
You can't look without reacting, this is why James said "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26).

James also said something interesting I would like to quote
"You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2: 24).

May I chip in also that, not keeping the faith, loosing faith in the word of God in Eden, was the first test man failed in.

BabaGnoni:

My sentiments exactly except for the sinner tag used on believers (i.e. saints or righteous)
One reverts back to a sinner after apostasy (i.e. after leaving the faith) then sin committed after is recorded and counted against one
Believers can leave the faith and do leave the faith
Almost every book or chapter in the NT warns about apostasy (i.e. leaving the faith)
If Once Saved, Always Saved is true, one wonders why almost all the books in the NT warns believers against apostasy

- EXCERPT -

saints that sin or saints sinning dont necessarily make them outright sinners
(i.e. this is because of 2 Corinthians 5:17, Romans 8:1-10, 1 John 1:8 and Hebrews 4:15-16)
- as a matter of fact & truth, if/when saints sin or when their world crumbles, saints can go/come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There, saints will receive His mercy, and will find assistance and grace to help saints when saints need it most (i.e. Hebrews 4:15-16)

https://www.nairaland.com/2076644/christian-justify-still-guilty-charged#29561144

- EXCERPT -

We are saints by imputation, not by our deeds. The question that remains is, do we still sin?