davien:
we are forced to believe it is a shared experience via "realism" because we can't know [/b]otherwise...and in this shared reality we tend to go with things that can be demonstrated to be [b]likely or more possible over things which aren't...

PastorAIO:


What do you 'know' that you don't believe?

davien:
now how does a "god" remotely follow this?....

PastorAIO:
It follows that the op's question is unrealistic. There can be no such thing as 'definitive proof'.

Being forced to accept what we call reality we can verify the existence of other things(to varying degrees of accuracy) either through a deductive argument or the scientific method because they are the methods that we can attest to their pragmatism and they best account for wide phenomena...

Because that's the point in the first place....we hardly can tell if the experience we call reality is real talk less of presuppose one that is so alien to it,it forces one to twist the experiences we share(reality) so much that anything we can understand to be demonstrated falls prey to this "presupposition"

Good....so if a definitive way cannot be determined about "god" without it being called into question nor can it be substantiated in this reality how do you detect "god"?

malvisguy212:
funny atheist , the book of job was not the only book he quote, read through it,even atheists that are more intelligent did not have a say in it.

johnydon22:

Lmao... you already assumed me an atheist... i thought we were having a civil discussion... chai alright am done thanks for your time...

malvisguy212:
are you not an atheist ?

plaetton:

liar.
From which bible are you reading from?
Eve never rebelled against god.
If we are to take the bible literally, then it is clear that she was simply naively misled into eating a fruit she was not supposed to eat.
How does that translate into a rebellion against god.

There is no child that has not, at one time or another, been misled into disobeying his or her father.
Good fathers don't disown their naive children on account of one small act of disobedience.

You are an expert at twisting the bible.

PastorAIO:


Why don't you ask the devil?

shaking with laughter

PastorAIO:

Thank you very much for this. Hence I made this statement earlier.



We don't 'know', we just believe with varying degrees of certainty. Or as Plato put it, all we have is the LIKELY STORY. and of course as our experiences change so does what we consider likely.



Hence my first response to your question on this thread.




Not 'varying degrees of accuracy'. I believe you mean to say varying degrees of certainty. Certainty however is also a psychological phenomenon. The certainty of most armchair scientists who feel very clever after reading a couple of popular science books is quite different from the certainty of a real scientists who has proposed very plausible theories before only to find them disproved under peer review. The sense of certainty that newbies have is often more intense than that of seasoned veterans. With experience, even if you've looked at a theory from every perspective and feel it is error proof there is always a sense of caution that you've missed something.



Let me address what I think you're getting at like this. After consciousness the next most fundamental experiences that we have are Urges. We are aware that we are subject to a whole range of urges and they drive our behaviour. We act in order to gratify these urges. The ontological status of the objects are secondary to the urges. So what if the world is an illusion? What is important is that we enjoy the illusion. What is important is that our urges are gratified. If I'm dreaming that I'm hungry and I get presented with a huge feast which I thoroughly enjoy then that enjoy is what matters, not whether or not the feast actually happened. If a buddhist says that the world is Maya (illusion) and we have to escape from the illusion, I say Why? I'm having a great time! I'm more concerned with how I can enjoy the illusion better. I want to live a rich full life, not escape from it because someone says it's an illusion. It's like watching a movie, you know the drama is not really happening but you still get involved, you immerse yourself in it and thoroughly enjoy it.

With this way of thinking objective reality only matters to the extent that it can impact our primary urges. I'm interested in studying society because I get a lot of gratification from my interactions with society, and if I get those interactions wrong I can suffer a lot of pain, maybe become a social outcast thereby frustrating my basic urge for social contact. etc

Food is objective reality. Hunger is an urge. I'm interested in Food.

What if I have an urge that is met by Divinity? That would explain my interest in it. Evangelicals have this saying that I hate very much. it goes something like: We have a God-shaped hole in our souls and only God can fill it.
I can't stand that saying but I guess it apt for this conversation right now.





I have certain urges that are met by the practice of religion.

But Wait! I said religion not God and that because I am not sure that what I mean by God is the same as what you or even other Theists call God. In fact I'm quite sure that what I call God is not the same with the 'god' of many of these fellows.

malvisguy212:
that what freewill is all about. You reject God or you accept Him.

wordcat:


Freewill and omniscient can't go the same time. One have to make way for the other; It is either u know what I will choose before I make my choice(Omniscient) or u don't know what I will choose(Freewill).

The moment u know what I will choose(Omniscient) and I MUST choose that to make sure that your power of Omnipotency remains then there is no such thing as Freewill.

wordcat:


Freewill and omniscient can't go the same time. One have to make way for the other; It is either u know what I will choose before I make my choice(Omniscient) or u don't know what I will choose(Freewill).

The moment u know what I will choose(Omniscient) and I MUST choose that to make sure that your power of Omnipotency remains then there is no such thing as Freewill.

malvisguy212:
you are canal minded man, you can't explained the nature of God.

God knows that adam and eve will disobeyed Him, yet he did not interfere in there decision,bible say after they ate the fruit, they started hiding from God.

malvisguy212:
you are canal minded man, you can't explained the nature of God.

God knows that adam and eve will disobeyed Him, yet he did not interfere in there decision,bible say after they ate the fruit, they started hiding from God.

johnydon22:

If God knew adam and eve would eat the fruit that means he already predestined them to eat that fruit and that is not freewill since it has already been predestined and they were just acting out the script. if they didnt eat that fruit that means he is not omnipotent. . . he is a canal minded man and am sure you are a spiritual minded man...

malvisguy212:
Johnny and wordcat.

What is the purpose of God creating human? To worship him,love him or reject him and hate him, how can all this happened without a choice? God allow temporary evil to exist for man to worship Him or reject him.
What you guys are implying is partial freewill. Can a computer or robot love it owner?

malvisguy212:
Johnny and wordcat.

What is the purpose of God creating human? To worship him,love him or reject him and hate him, how can all this happened without a choice? God allow temporary evil to exist for man to worship Him or reject him.
What you guys are implying is partial freewill. Can a computer or robot love it owner?

malvisguy212:
Johnny and wordcat.
You have to believe in God to know more about freewill, the parable of the prodigal son illustrate God love and freewill. The "He" in the first verse is Jesus, as He relates the parable of a father and two sons. The father represent God, our Father. The two sons represent two reactions that people have to God and His love. The younger son is the prodigal, who represents the non-believer, while the older son represents the believer who doesn't really realize what God has done for Him. There is a lesson here for all of us.

God allow the son to make a decision I.e freewill.

davien:
Not all urges are equal...

we try to go with urges that do not impede on anyone's wellbeing....and society as a whole...

Having urges met by killing people for instance is dangerous for you and my wellbeing...

And we also tend to psychologically re-evaluate urges that prompt people to disassociation themselves from reality by locking them up in asylums,provided evidence negates or goes contrary to it....
So they are stuck in this contorted belief that they refuse to let go or address the contradiction....a delusion is the term that best applies to this.

And is there a reliable pathway with which you can separate your "god" from the alleged rest you claim?

malvisguy212:
Johnny and wordcat.

What is the purpose of God creating human? To worship him,love him or reject him and hate him, how can all this happened without a choice? God allow temporary evil to exist for man to worship Him or reject him.
What you guys are implying is partial freewill. Can a computer or robot love it owner?

wordcat:


You're just like a robot in the sight of your god since knows what you will do(omniscient), and you must do it or else he's no longer omniscient. In philosophy, it is called pre-determined or pre-destined.

Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent, these three qualities killed ur god. And going by these qualities of your god, robot is better than you cos robot can sometimes malfunction but you? You MUST do that which your god has programmed you to do or else? Then he lacks one or two of those qualities.

malvisguy212:
Johnny and wordcat.
You have to believe in God to know more about freewill, the parable of the prodigal son illustrate God love and freewill. The "He" in the first verse is Jesus, as He relates the parable of a father and two sons. The father represent God, our Father. The two sons represent two reactions that people have to God and His love. The younger son is the prodigal, who represents the non-believer, while the older son represents the believer who doesn't really realize what God has done for Him. There is a lesson here for all of us.

God allow the son to make a decision I.e freewill.

honourhim:


Two major and only things that is in life to choose from are GOOD AND EVIL. Every other thing falls under any of these two. The freewill or the choice that we are talking about is based on these two.

timonski:
omniscience is the quality of being all-knowing i.e, an omniscient being has access to all knowledge. Precognition is the ability to perceive the future, which is non-existent. We are living in a moving timeline( N/B: time is one-dimensional): the future becomes the present and the present recedes into the past.
A being can not directly see the future, for the future is not a separate event that is already occuring.
If one has the ability to see directly into future, then one sees an alternate timeline that is far ahead of our timeline. So it is not impossible for God to see the future, but illogical. Cos if God sees the future, say 30 years from now, he sees an alternate timeline(universe) 30 years ahead of his universe(timeline). Then that universe was created by another God who is way ahead of Him.
Err...my point is:
1. Omniscience is access to all
knowledge in a given timeline.
2. omniscience is does not include
precognition, predestination
3. Precognition is illogical

wordcat:


Freewill and omniscient can't go the same time. One have to make way for the other; It is either u know what I will choose before I make my choice(Omniscient) or u don't know what I will choose(Freewill).

The moment u know what I will choose(Omniscient) and I MUST choose that to make sure that your power of Omnipotency remains then there is no such thing as Freewill.

PastorAIO:


Nope they're not. and furthermore the relative intensity of the various urges differ from person to person and that is what makes us individuals. Some people the urge to eat is stronger than the sex urge. Other people the sex urge is stronger. Their behaviours and personalities will thereby be different.

We don't 'try' anything. we are at the mercy of our urges, we don't choose them. they even define us. If you don't have the urge to cater for anyone's well being then your behaviour will reflect that and you might even be sociopathic.

I don't think the murderous fellow gives a flying poo about endangering your wellbeing.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Urges always involve 'reality' or rather the world of experience. I don't know of any urge to dissociate from reality. Maybe the urge to dissociate from Social responsibility. People can become loners or even hermits.

timonski:
omniscience is the quality of being all-knowing i.e, an omniscient being has access to all knowledge. Precognition is the ability to perceive the future, which is non-existent. We are living in a moving timeline( N/B: time is one-dimensional): the future becomes the present and the present recedes into the past.
A being can not directly see the future, for the future is not a separate event that is already occuring.
If one has the ability to see directly into future, then one sees an alternate timeline that is far ahead of our timeline. So it is not impossible for God to see the future, but illogical. Cos if God sees the future, say 30 years from now, he sees an alternate timeline(universe) 30 years ahead of his universe(timeline). Then that universe was created by another God who is way ahead of Him.
Err...my point is:
1. Omniscience is access to all
knowledge in a given timeline.
2. omniscience is does not include
precognition, predestination
3. Precognition is illogical

PastorAIO:


Are you saying that your god is incapbale of making prognosis? Even humans can boast that if they have knowledge of all the factors they can predict every subsequent event.

An intellect which at a certain moment would know all forces that set nature in motion, and all positions of all items of which nature is composed, if this intellect were also vast enough to submit these data to analysis, it would embrace in a single formula the movements of the greatest bodies of the universe and those of the tiniest atom; for such an intellect nothing would be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes.

—Pierre Simon Laplace, A Philosophical Essay on Probabilities

PastorAIO:


Are you saying that your god is incapbale of making prognosis? Even humans can boast that if they have knowledge of all the factors they can predict every subsequent event.

An intellect which at a certain moment would know all forces that set nature in motion, and all positions of all items of which nature is composed, if this intellect were also vast enough to submit these data to analysis, it would embrace in a single formula the movements of the greatest bodies of the universe and those of the tiniest atom; for such an intellect nothing would be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes.

—Pierre Simon Laplace, A Philosophical Essay on Probabilities

davien:

I'm not saying we aren't at the mercy of our urges....I'm just saying we(as in most of us) try to better keep them in check in a society....say if you noticed someone was expressing sociopathic behaviour,wouldn't that prompt you to distance yourself from that person and alert others that can subdue the person?

My point of the analogy is to express how social creatures like ourselves value our kind over others...
The group evicts any member deemed dangerous to its existence..
And that is why we evict such people from the society...

At first glance of the example below,there's no mechanism that urges one to do this...but put religion in the picture fueled by human curiosity and you have a match....or don't you agree that religion(most atleast) being fuelled by urges of curiosity leads one to dissociation in any sense...
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociation_(psychology)

"the term dissociation describes a wide array of
experiences from mild detachment from immediate surroundings to
more severe detachment from physical and emotional experience.
The major characteristic of all dissociative phenomena involves a
detachment from reality, rather than a loss of reality as in psychosis."


Our curiosity afterall is an innate urge to understand the things around us...

davien:
There's a great educational video I can point you to on YouTube that gives a case that all probabilistic events may in fact be known....I'd like to see what you'd make of it..

timonski:
such intellect could predict the path/end of thoughtless processes. Predicting the actions of intelligent beings which can be influenced by other intelligent is open for further discussion.