According to the view generally held
Christ is supposed, through His alleged expiatory death, to have vicariously taken upon Himself the burden of sins for men, to bring about a reconciliation thereby between God and men.

It is striking that in the Revelation of John, which after all came into being and was proclaimed only after the death of Christ, and which contains all the important spiritual events, not a word is said about this taking over of sins. On the contrary, it is clearly stated that it is men who have washed their robes clean, and not Christ, which means that men had to wash off their sins themselves with the help of the Word, Whose Truth Christ sealed with His blood (Rev. 7, 14).

Indeed the Lamb of God Which was
"slain" is accusingly spoken of several times in the Revelation. And even from the promised judgment of God alone, with the pouring out of the vials of Wrath, anything but a reconciliation between the Godhead and mankind is to be inferred.

But if Christ had taken upon Himself or taken away the evil works of men, what works are then referred to in God's judgment, which Christ Himself
proclaimed? "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man (whether Christians or non Christians) according to his works" (Matthew 16, 27); and in the Revelation of John the Son of Man promised: "I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be" (Rev. 22, 12).

Sorry dude, you are more confused and the problem is that you have also given your own howbeit misinformed interpretation.

psucc:
Sorry dude, you are more confused and the problem is that you have also given your own howbeit misinformed interpretation.

Don't beg the question. An objective answer or view is highly needed. If you have nothing to say then you are welcome to reflect upon it.

And if you must know I'm not an atheist. I'm a Christian.

Christ certainly bears the sin of the world (John 1, 29). But He bears it in His wound-marks, on Himself, as a visible sign of the sins committed against Him by men, but not in the sense of taking over their sins.

In many Bibles Martin Luther's correct translation, "Behold the Lamb of God, which beareth the sin of the world" has been changed to "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away or taketh upon itself the sin of the world". This does not correspond, however, to the real happening.

Christ cannot harvest what men sow. If this were possible God would have to alter His Laws. But His Perfection does not allow this.

Not even earthly jurisdiction permits a man to shoulder the guilt of another.

tola9ja:
https://www.nairaland.com/2098054/questions-all-reasonable-christians/1#29889959

I'd like to know if you are a Christian and if your questions spring from a need to know the truth or from quriosity?

If you are not merely curious and think dogma should be questioned, then kindly drop your view on the above question. And if you have a question of serious purport, you're welcome to ask me.

Did the jesus tell u that he die for ur sin? Or paul


haaa i dey pity u (xtian)

Christ points out the way to redemption in His Word. He did not come to let Himself be put to death by men, and thereby, as it were, demand of them to transgress His Father's Commandment: "Thou shalt not kill!"

That this death was not in the Will of His Father plainly follows from the Parable of the wicked husbandmen given by Christ(Matthew 21, 33-39)

After the servants (teachers, prophets) whom the
householder (God) sent to help the husbandmen (human beings) had been received by them with enmity and had even been killed, God sent His Son to men, assuming that they would reverence Him (Chapter 21, 37). But Him they also killed.

I easily click on the reply button just to reply sharply but after I read the detail I was some how disturbed
well ,I will love to ask these question why will he come to the world and die if not because of our sin
why will he say his blood speak than the blood of Abel
most of the time I myself is disturbed but we must not forget that though the secret of the lord is with them that fear him, the secret he choose to reveal and some things are better left than touch for our own good for so the philosophers of the past did and they ended up saying there is no God
the way of the lord are mysterious
I await responses anyway

Ayoakinkahunsi:
I easily click on the reply button just to reply sharply but after I read the detail I was some how disturbed
well ,I will love to ask these question why will he come to the world and die if not because of our sin
why will he say his blood speak than the blood of Abel
most of the time I myself is disturbed but we must not forget that though the secret of the lord is with them that fear him, the secret he choose to reveal and some things are better left than touch for our own good for so the philosophers of the past did and they ended up saying there is no God
the way of the lord are mysterious
I await responses anyway

I actually wanted objective responses but since you have asked a related objective, keynote question, I'll attempt to respond:

It's a good thing that you are perturbed by certain doctrinal teachings. But the honest answer lies in the Bible itself. If we can't make the Word of God, which is contained in the Bible too, the standard and basis of our beliefs and convictions, then where do we turn to?

If you study scriptures without prejudice, you would be right to assert that:
Because of our sin, Christ came into the world; for if men stood aright, then His coming wouldn't have been necessary;

Also you would be right to say that because of our sin He died; not that He died for our sin but died as a result of our sin.

If you want I could quote passages in the Bible that points to the fact that Christ was aware of the PLOT to kill Him and He was against such plot, describing the would be perpetrators as children of the devil!

You can take a clue from the parable pointed out above by channelz

Even you, have answered the question when you asked:

"why will He say His blood speak than the blood of Abel"-

For Abel was murdered by his brother Cain

Hope this response went a long way.

channelz:
Christ points out the way to redemption in His Word. He did not come to let Himself be put to death by men, and thereby, as it were, demand of them to transgress His Father's Commandment: "Thou shalt not kill!"

That this death was not in the Will of His Father plainly follows from the Parable of the wicked husbandmen given by Christ(Matthew 21, 33-39)

After the servants (teachers, prophets) whom the
householder (God) sent to help the husbandmen (human beings) had been received by them with enmity and had even been killed, God sent His Son to men, assuming that they would reverence Him (Chapter 21, 37). But Him they also killed.

This is quite appreciated. This says quite a lot as parables formed most part of His Teachings. I can also deduce from this that:

He also expressed in the parable that His death was not intended by His Father, otherwise God would not have said that men would reverence His Son. Surely the meaning here is that they would not dare to harm Him! Nevertheless they did.

And the intercession of Jesus on the cross, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do", showed emphatically enough that men's actions were wrong.

iamjane:
Christ cannot harvest what men sow. If this were possible God would have to alter His Laws. But His Perfection does not allow this.

Not even earthly jurisdiction permits a man to shoulder the guilt of another.

You give God the honour of Perfection with your rendition. -

Immutable and adamantine stands the Law:
What you sow, you shall reap!

I'm glad at the these responses. It doesn't make the great mission of Christ any less.

Because of our sin He came into this world to show us the way in the Word. Religious leaders at that time saw in Him a threat to their authority and means of livelihood and plotted to eliminate Him. First they set snares against Him, but when it was seen that Christ was gaining more grounds and that more people flocked around Him for answers, they (religious leaders) finally devised a means to eliminate Him.

I'm quite satisfied with the responses and questions thus far.

And it is on that note that I thus conclude:

Only man himself can redeem himself from sin by inwardly turning to the good and recognising his faults.
He does not find this forgiveness and redemption from his misdeeds, faults and weaknesses in the taking-over of sins by Christ, but in the fulfilment of the Laws of God. Christ points out the way to it in His Word. He did not come to let Himself be put to death by men.

Skako:
Did the Jesus tell u that He die for ur sin? Or Paul


haaa i dey pity u (Christians)

Fixed

tola9ja:
https://www.nairaland.com/2098054/questions-all-reasonable-christians/1#29889959

I often ask too about which of the Bible editions is complete too: 66books some more than. ..until I decided I would seek the truth beyond the books contained in the Bible.

But let me not derail now. @op your conclusion is seconded by me, everyone is to take up the cross and follow Him!

If i my add chirst came to die is not his main purpose...it was to bring back his first love Lord Adam from the prision of hell .. 1st peter 3 vs 18 19 ...his first begotten ....as jesus is the first begotten of the father so as adam is the first begotten of jesus.

Palsm 24 from 9.. adam was the one that spoke when jesus rose and was acending to heaven with the people he freed.. mat 27vs 52....

So the main aim was for adam as he promised him he would not leave nor forsake him.. he willl come for him.. adam was not deceived.. he had to do wat he had to do.. just like judas..

channelz:
I often ask too about which of the Bible editions is complete too: 66books some more than. ..until I decided I would seek the truth beyond the books contained in the Bible.

But let me not derail now. @op your conclusion is seconded by me, everyone is to take up the cross and follow Him!

which cross because i can take up what is not belong to nor jesus

Expressions:


I'd like to know if you are a Christian and if your questions spring from a need to know the truth or from quriosity?

If you are not merely curious and think dogma should be questioned, then kindly drop your view on the above question. And if you have a question of serious purport, you're welcome to ask me.

my view on the question is that one of the two bibles can never be the real bible it must be one to make it unique globally

tola9ja:


which cross because i can take up what is not belong to nor Jesus

The Cross symbolizes the Truth. @tola9ja, in your religion or if you are a lover of the arts, do you have any symbols that represents or reminds you of certain concepts?

leorayvon2k2:
If i my add chirst came to die is not his main purpose...it was to bring back his first love Lord Adam from the prision of hell .. 1st peter 3 vs 18 19 ...his first begotten ....as jesus is the first begotten of the father so as adam is the first begotten of jesus.

Palsm 24 from 9.. adam was the one that spoke when jesus rose and was acending to heaven with the people he freed.. mat 27vs 52....

So the main aim was for adam as he promised him he would not leave nor forsake him.. he willl come for him.. adam was not deceived.. he had to do wat he had to do.. just like judas..

I appreciate that you took your time to contribute to the topic. To react to your response I'll first have to spell out all the biblical references you quoted:

1 Peter 3:18- For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Psalms 24:9- Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. 24:10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

Matthew 27:52- And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I noticed that neither the name Adam nor First man/love was mentioned. So could you kindly inform me as to how you arrived at your conclusion.

I also didn't get the highlighted concluding part of your contribution, especially about Judas. Could you buttress further because the condemnable deed of Judas was made clear here:

Mark 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

I await your response.

Expressions:

I actually wanted objective responses but since you have asked a related objective, keynote question, I'll attempt to respond:

It's a good thing that you are perturbed by certain doctrinal teachings. But the honest answer lies in the Bible itself. If we can't make the Word of God, which is contained in the Bible too, the standard and basis of our beliefs and convictions, then where do we turn to?

If you study scriptures without prejudice, you would be right to assert that:
Because of our sin, Christ came into the world; for if men stood aright, then His coming wouldn't have been necessary;

Also you would be right to say that because of our sin He died; not that He died for our sin but died as a result of our sin.

If you want I could quote passages in the Bible that points to the fact that Christ was aware of the PLOT to kill Him and He was against such plot, describing the would be perpetrators as children of the devil!

You can take a clue from the parable pointed out above by channelz

Even you, have answered the question when you asked:

"why will He say His blood speak than the blood of Abel"-

For Abel was murdered by his brother Cain

Hope this response went a long way.

thank you
but some how he has a mission for coming to the world and prophesy supported it
am sure the new testament did clearifys doubt

channelz:

The Cross symbolizes the Truth. @tola9ja, in your religion or if you are a lover of the arts, do you have any symbols that represents or reminds you of certain concepts?

PLS PROVE IT FOR ME HOW THE CROSS REPRESENT THE TRUTH

If your jesus died on the cross for the world to be saved, why is there still sin today? Was not the personified Son of God enough to cleanse the whole world of sin?. Why did he have to send his beloved son to die for the sins of the world?. Couldn't he just come himself, or wave his hand and make it all well. He said his spirit was willing but his flesh was weak, and what did God do? His only begotten son, according to your belief, he let him die by cruci-fiction. So that's how God showed his love?. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. And we are supposed to teach our children this and perpetuate the greatest "story" (lie) ever told? NOT!

Ayoakinkahunsi:

thank you
but some how he has a mission for coming to the world and prophesy supported it
am sure the new testament did clearifys doubt

Of course, there was a true mission. I just wanted to be clear as to what the mission wasn't. It wasn't to get killed so that the sins of man would be automatically taken away; which contradicts the Law of God and the Scripture.

But I would like to know from you what you think His mission was and you could back it up with the new testament.

Horus:
If your Jesus died on the cross for the world to be saved, why is there still sin today? Was not the personified Son of God enough to cleanse the whole world of sin?. Why did he have to send his beloved son to die for the sins of the world?. Couldn't he just come himself, or wave his hand and make it all well. He said his spirit was willing but his flesh was weak, and what did God do? His only begotten son, according to your belief, he let him die by cruci-fiction. So that's how God showed his love?. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. And we are supposed to teach our children this and perpetuate the greatest "story" (lie) ever told? NOT!

Easy there. We're not here to argue or undermine people's beliefs. We're only trying to objectively correct wrong concepts even with the use of the Bible itself whence the wrong concepts emerged....

And even if you are a non-Christian, you should know that Jesus proclaimed the Truth. His words must therefore also comprise all the Truths in other religions. He showed mankind the right path, which can just as well lead through the Truths of other religions. For this reason His words often accorded with the religions already existing. Jesus did not take these Truths from them but, as He brought the Truth, this Truth must necessarily already contain all that was true in the other religions.

So my friend, as much as I understand where you are coming from, do not refer to Him as "your Jesus".

tola9ja:

PLS PROVE IT FOR ME HOW THE CROSS REPRESENT THE TRUTH

The Cross was already known before Christ’s time on earth.

For thousands of years, the Equal Armed Cross has been known and accepted as the symbol of the complete Truth. The Celts had recognised it, and so did those who concerned themselves with the various Grail legends. It's even seen in nature.

The Cross of Suffering (crucifix) adopted by the churches, however, is not the Cross of Redemption spoken of when the Son of God told men that they should take up the Cross and follow Him, which means to accept the Truth and to live accordingly!

Here: http://www.symbolic-meanings.com/2007/11/02/symbolism-of-the-equal-armed-cross/

Do your home work. Let's not derail.
Cheers.

channelz:

The Cross was already known before Christ’s time on earth.

For thousands of years, the Equal Armed Cross has been known and accepted as the symbol of the complete Truth. The Celts had recognised it, and so did those who concerned themselves with the various Grail legends. It's even seen in nature.

The Cross of Suffering (crucifix) adopted by the churches, however, is not the Cross of Redemption spoken of when the Son of God told men that they should take up the Cross and follow Him, which means to accept the Truth and to live accordingly!

Here: http://www.symbolic-meanings.com/2007/11/02/symbolism-of-the-equal-armed-cross/

Do your home work. Let's not derail.
Cheers.

That's okay you are in line.
Hmmm...
A doctrine of suffering is desired neither by God nor the Son of God, His Messenger!

Very good question, I bet the religious fundamentalists are quaking in their boots.

Following and will contribute in due course.

frosbel:
Very good question, I bet the religious fundamentalists are quaking in their boots.

Following and will contribute in due course.

You welcome

tola9ja:


my view on the question is that one of the two bibles can never be the real bible it must be one to make it unique globally

Even with the "real, globally unique" Bible, there would still be translation issues especially as there are now proliferation of revised versions and editions.

[quote author=Expressions post=29913518]

I appreciate that you took your time to contribute to the topic. To react to your response I'll first have to spell out all the biblical references you quoted:

1 Peter 3:18- For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Psalms 24:9- Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. 24:10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

Matthew 27:52- And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I noticed that neither the name Adam nor First man/love was mentioned. So could you kindly inform me as to how you arrived at your conclusion.

I also didn't get the highlighted concluding part of your contribution, especially about Judas. Could you buttress further because the condemnable deed of Judas was made clear here:

Mark 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

I await your response. [/quote

If u understand the similitude u will knw wat am talking abt. ...do u knw God know the end before he started creation. ..do u knw how movie produccer wrire d movies n knws how it ends hb4 mking d movies?..God is greater. . Isiah 1 vvs 7 before u were born he knws u...he has seen ur birth till wen u grow old..so before he formed adam he knew him and told him wat will happen ....Adakm is a great prophet.. he is the king of King's and Jesus is God