Expressions:
I'm quite satisfied with the responses and questions thus far.

And it is on that note that I thus conclude:

Only man himself can redeem himself from sin by inwardly turning to the good and recognising his faults.
He does not find this forgiveness and redemption from his misdeeds, faults and weaknesses in the taking-over of sins by Christ, but in the fulfilment of the Laws of God. Christ points out the way to it in His Word. He did not come to let Himself be put to death by men.

SMH! Wonders ! Wonders!! Wonder!!!

Expressions:
Even with the "real, globally unique" Bible, there would still be translation issues especially as there are now proliferation of revised versions and editions.

can the word of god need revision

channelz:

The Cross was already known before Christ’s time on earth.

For thousands of years, the Equal Armed Cross has been known and accepted as the symbol of the complete Truth. The Celts had recognised it, and so did those who concerned themselves with the various Grail legends. It's even seen in nature.

The Cross of Suffering (crucifix) adopted by the churches, however, is not the Cross of Redemption spoken of when the Son of God told men that they should take up the Cross and follow Him, which means to accept the Truth and to live accordingly!

Here: http://www.symbolic-meanings.com/2007/11/02/symbolism-of-the-equal-armed-cross/

Do your home work. Let's not derail.
Cheers.

who carry the cross of jesus

tola9ja:


who carry the cross of jesus

Tola9ja of what benefit would that be? Anyway from what I read, Jesus was meant to carry the wooden cross upon which he was to be crucified. Along the way he became tired as the wood was quite heavy. so someone, Simon of Cyrene volunteered to help him carry it.

[quote author=leorayvon2k2 post=29923851][/quote]

Hmmm, this is new to me, I mean about Adam and he being the king of kings. Could you enlighten me and under what denomination does this fall under?

christemmbassey:
SMH! Wonders ! Wonders!! Wonder!!!

Members of the Love World family are quite full of wonders, their president, Pastor Chris (PhD) is quite an odd one; bold and known as a myth buster.

You're welcome to share a contrary view.

Expressions:


Hmmm, this is new to me, I mean about Adam and he being the king of kings. Could you enlighten me and under what denomination does this fall under?

If u understand simlitude Hosea 12:10 u will knw wat am talking abt.. Jesus being the express image of the invincible God.. the is if u want to see god in a being u see Jesus ..while adam is the express image of jesus...

Having said dat u should know God gave adam dominion over the birds of the air. sea and land..and over everything GOd made.. He made him a king gen 1 vs 26.


God declared him the king of all ki gs wen he said to the angels and the host of heaven .. this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased hear ye him just as he declared jesus after baptism..thats when satan got jesus and ploted his downfall not also knowing that adam was aware of the plot but played along because God has showed him the end from that beginning....just as satan came to plot jesus downfall not known he was playing along... se God is the best planner the master crafter..... u dont need to aak why is the world like this.. its all for a reason it has hbeen planned before creation. ...this is the defination of good from evil

psucc:
Sorry dude, you are more confused and the problem is that you have also given your own howbeit misinformed interpretation.

Sorry sir, unfortunately u are the most confused one in this matter. To u Christ took away the sins u ignorantly, thoughtlessly and blindly committed. How important u imagine urself to be that God would send His Son solely to come and suffer and die for the sake of taking away ur sins. This belief only lull u to the sleep of death which very soon u are going to find urself in the right place where u belong after ur physical death. Sleep on quietly..

iamjane:
Christ cannot harvest what men sow. If this were possible God would have to alter His Laws. But His Perfection does not allow this.

Not even earthly jurisdiction permits a man to shoulder the guilt of another.

God bless u. Are u a cross bearer?

Expressions:
Members of the Love World family are quite full of wonders, their president, Pastor Chris (PhD) is quite an odd one; bold and known as a myth buster.

You're welcome to share a contrary view.

why atheists are always intrested in christianity? I wonder!

Expressions:
[size=12pt]
It is striking that in the Revelation of John, which after all came into being and was proclaimed only after the death of Christ, and which contains all the important spiritual events, not a word is said about this taking over of sins. On the contrary, it is clearly stated that it is men who have washed their robes clean, and not Christ, which means that men had to wash off their sins themseves
.

ok, pls explain. Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. TO HIM WHO LOVED US AND WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS OWN BLOOD.. Again consider Isaiah the whole chapter 53. . Stay blessed.

channelz:
Tola9ja of what benefit would that be? Anyway from what I read, Jesus was meant to carry the wooden cross upon which he was to be crucified. Along the way he became tired as the wood was quite heavy. so someone, Simon of Cyrene volunteered to help him carry it.

can you pls explain this verse for me deuteronomy21:23

christemmbassey:
why atheists are always intrested in christianity? I wonder!

I'm not an atheist. I'm a Christian like you.

christemmbassey:
ok, pls explain. Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. TO HIM WHO LOVED US AND WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS OWN BLOOD..

Ok I'll start with this:
First thing you should note is that the books in the Bible were not originally written in the English text. I had to compare different versions of the Bible. The one you quoted above was KJV. Now observe the three versions below.

Note that:John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

The reason why His blood is linked with His work of Redemption is, He (Jesus) did not shun physical death, but remained steadfast and calmly faced death for the sake of the Truth He brought. With His blood on the Cross He fortified their faith in the Truth of His words.
But this does not mean that you do not have to redeem (wash) your own sins!
Only now it is easy for you, because by bringing the Truth Jesus has shown you the way in His Words.

christemmbassey:
Again consider Isaiah the whole chapter 53. . Stay blessed.

I'm thinking Isaiah 53 was what was quoted here:"Behold the Lamb of God, which beareth the sin of the world". I already commented on this on the Front page.

Note that the starting point of the prophesy in chapter 53:3 (as seen in the attached picture below) was an indictment(accusation) on/against mankind.

Now I want you to see how the prophecy was fulfilled with this clear cut conversation between Jesus and man in:


John 8:37 [b]I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but He sent me. 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.[/b]

Remain blessed in your bones, blessed in your family, blessed in your finances... seek the truth and prevail.

leorayvon2k2:


If u understand simlitude Hosea 12:10 u will knw wat am talking abt.. Jesus being the express image of the invincible God.. the is if u want to see god in a being u see Jesus ..while adam is the express image of jesus...

Having said dat u should know God gave adam dominion over the birds of the air. sea and land..and over everything GOd made.. He made him a king gen 1 vs 26.


God declared him the king of all ki gs wen he said to the angels and the host of heaven .. this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased hear ye him just as he declared jesus after baptism..thats when satan got jesus and ploted his downfall not also knowing that adam was aware of the plot but played along because God has showed him the end from that beginning....just as satan came to plot jesus downfall not known he was playing along... se God is the best planner the master crafter..... u dont need to aak why is the world like this.. its all for a reason it has hbeen planned before creation. ...this is the defination of good from evil

Hhmm...now I see where you're coming from. I appreciate that you took time to share.

Omniscience is to God alone.

bsjay:

God bless u. Are u a cross bearer?

Thanks. But nope, am a Christian and a seeker, I was introduced to the book ie the Message by a friend here in NL.

Expressions:

Hhmm...now I see where you're coming from. I appreciate that you took time to share.

Omniscience is to God alone.

l

Were do u think am coming from.?

Following...

Sorry, I've been away.

Now, still on Isaiah 53 :
I'd like to buttress more on how mankind fulfilled what was written against them (mankind) in the scriptures. -

Truly, as prophesied, He was a Man of sorrows. I won't say why, I'd just let what He was reported -in the Bible- to have said, speak for itself:

John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 16:3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me. 16:4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you. 16:5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? 16:6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 16:8 And when He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;....

An2elect2:
Following...

You're welcome

leorayvon2k2:


If u understand simlitude Hosea 12:10 u will knw wat am talking abt.. Jesus being the express image of the invincible God.. the is if u want to see god in a being u see Jesus ..while adam is the express image of jesus...

Having said dat u should know God gave adam dominion over the birds of the air. sea and land..and over everything GOd made.. He made him a king gen 1 vs 26.


God declared him the king of all ki gs wen he said to the angels and the host of heaven .. this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased hear ye him just as he declared jesus after baptism..thats when satan got jesus and ploted his downfall not also knowing that adam was aware of the plot but played along because God has showed him the end from that beginning....just as satan came to plot jesus downfall not known he was playing along... se God is the best planner the master crafter..... u dont need to aak why is the world like this.. its all for a reason it has been planned before creation. ...this is the defination of good from evil

Predestination?

There are so many passages in the synoptic gospel where Christ burdened with sorrow, lamented with His disciples which I won't spell out any further... I enjoin you to go back to the gospel and begin to see things once again, but this time the pictures will unfold differently.

It may interest you to know that I discovered His lamentations as a young chap with my little abridged Bible, yep the one attached below.

Now let's go straight to His arrest.

Now can you recall instances where these religious leaders at that time set snares to entrap He Who they should revere? Moments when they asked Him before the crowd questions about payment of taxes. I'm sure you know the adroit reply Christ gave them? Good.

Now, frustrated and desperate, they framed Him up and falsely accused Him of blasphemy (Son of God) and high treason... as you can see below.

Now these were no small offences, think deeply about it; they were crimes punishable by DEATH! Especially that of high treason. This also had the potential of destroying His reputation and honour as a Person and as the Christ.

Now note, if He (Christ) had withdrawn and fled and so given up His work, doubts would inevitably have arisen...

Now a glimpse of His reaction to this:

The response from Him which I am about to quote made it clearer and clearer that this wasn't part of the Divine plan:

John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Even the Pilate (Matthew 27:18) knew that for envy they had delivered him.

Also his wife warned him:
Matthew 27:19 When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.

Matthew 27:20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.

In conclusion, this perspective does not lessen the work of the Redeemer; indeed it is a sacrifice which could not be greater. Jesus came down from Heaven, His Kingdom into the mire for you. He fought for you suffered and died for you, in order to bring you Light and to show you the right way upward, so that you will not become lost in the Darkness and perish!

That is how your Redeemer stands
before you. That was His tremendous
work of Love. The Justice of God continued to exist, severe and strict, in the Laws of the Universe. For what a man sows that shall he reap, as Jesus Himself said in His Message. Divine Justice does not permit one farthing to be remitted!

The significance of the blood He shed:

Revelation 7:14 is he who absorbed His Word in a living way, on account of which He was condemned as a blasphemer, thereby figuratively washes himself with His blood.

With this, Isaiah 53 should be deeply read in a different light. Surface interpretation of a prophecy should not be accepted otherwise one would ask why Christ wasn't named Immanuel.

tola9ja:


can you pls explain this verse for me deuteronomy21:23

This is a very key note question @tola9ja.

I will try to explain it. I have been studying it and now I understand much better now in light of what the OP explained about the plot by the elders and religious leaders.

Deuteronomy 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

NOW OBSERVE:

Firstly, by the law of Moses, the touch of a dead body was defiling, therefore dead bodies must not be left hanging, as that would defile the land.

Verse 23. - He that is hanged is accursed of God; literally meaning a curse of God. But the more probable meaning is "a curse inflicted by God," which the transgressor is made to endure. (NOTE, THIS IS MEANT FOR CRIMINALS ONLY BUT THE RELIGIOUS LEADERS USED THAT LAW AGAINST A JUST MAN JUST TO DESTROY HIS REPUTATION)
That thy land be not defiled.
The land was defiled, not only by sins committed by its inhabitants, but also by the public exposure of criminals who had been put to death for their sins.

This was the general interpretation of the laws of the land prevalent even at the time of Jesus.
NOW CAN YOU SEE THE PLOT, THE MACHINATIONS OF THE DESPERATE RELIGIOUS LEADERS AGAINST JESUS WHO THEY SAW AS A THREAT TO THEIR POWER, AUTHORITY AND INFLUENCE?

He that is hanged is accursed of God; that is, it is the highest degree of disgrace and reproach. Those who see a man thus hanging between
heaven and earth, will conclude him abandoned of both (God and man), and unworthy of either (God or man).

Hope this was helpful.

channelz:


This is a very key note question @tola9ja.

I will try to explain it. I have been studying it and now I understand much better now in light of what the OP explained about the plot by the elders and religious leaders.

Deuteronomy 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

NOW OBSERVE:

Firstly, by the law of Moses, the touch of a dead body was defiling, therefore dead bodies must not be left hanging, as that would defile the land.

Verse 23. - He that is hanged is accursed of God; literally meaning a curse of God. But the more probable meaning is "a curse inflicted by God," which the transgressor is made to endure. (NOTE, THIS IS MEANT FOR CRIMINALS ONLY BUT THE RELIGIOUS LEADERS USED THAT LAW AGAINST A JUST MAN JUST TO DESTROY HIS REPUTATION)
That thy land be not defiled.
The land was defiled, not only by sins committed by its inhabitants, but also by the public exposure of criminals who had been put to death for their sins.

This was the general interpretation of the laws of the land prevalent even at the time of Jesus.
NOW CAN YOU SEE THE PLOT, THE MACHINATIONS OF THE DESPERATE RELIGIOUS LEADERS AGAINST JESUS WHO THEY SAW AS A THREAT TO THEIR POWER, AUTHORITY AND INFLUENCE?

He that is hanged is accursed of God; that is, it is the highest degree of disgrace and reproach. Those who see a man thus hanging between
heaven and earth, will conclude him abandoned of both (God and man), and unworthy of either (God or man).

Hope this was helpful.

That's an impressive answer @channelz. Learnt quite a lot.

I can recall somewhere in the Bible how they (the Sanhedrin or high council) gathered to finalize their plot against Him. The president of the high council then was the high priest of the temple in Jerusalem Caiaphas, the Co-Conspirator who played a key role in the trial and execution of Jesus Christ. Now, some members of the council disapproved of the plot (Joseph for instance), but imagine what a high priest said with his mouth:
“And you do not consider that is profitable for us that one man should die instead of the nation, and not that the whole nation perish.”-Aramaic Bible.
Just because Christ, while upholding the law, was breaking and correcting their man-made traditions. They felt if they allowed Him, the nation would perish.

Now about channelz explanation of Deutronomy, the laws of the land and how it was used against Christ:

This actually gave rise to the eventual assumptions which develop into a belief that Christ's mission was to come and die as you can see in the attached picture below.

You can imagine how His faithful followers and believers SHOCKED, looked upon Him hanging there, fully aware of it's implication in accordance with the laws of the land concerning one who is hanged. While some mocked ("He saved others..." ), some faithful ones actually waited for their Master to come down from the wooden cross or stake.
That was the highlight of the plot; the religious leaders where invariably saying to the people:

There's your Son of God. If He truly is then let His Father show us a sign by bringing Him down..."

Since nothing of such happened, the erroneous belief (erroneous because it is not in tandem with the Words of Christ as we have seen) that this was His mission (to come and allow Himself be killed or to become a curse for us) began to spring up and spread. That was the only way to counter and shun the religious leaders and the disgrace they tried to attach to His Name.

And the religious leaders became even more worried and frustrated saying:

"He (Christ) is more dangerous dead than alive!"

Interesting

Two others also, who were criminals, were being led away to be put to death with Him. When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing." And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves. And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One." The soldiers also mocked Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine, and saying, "If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself!" Now there was also an inscription above Him, "THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS." Luke 23:32-38

What humiliation!

It was well planned out.

Expressions:

That's an impressive answer @channelz. Learnt quite a lot.

I can recall somewhere in the Bible how they (the Sanhedrin or high council) gathered to finalize their plot against Him. The president of the high council then was the high priest of the temple in Jerusalem Caiaphas, the Co-Conspirator who played a key role in the trial and execution of Jesus Christ. Now, some members of the council disapproved of the plot (Joseph for instance), but imagine what a high priest said with his mouth:
“And you do not consider that is profitable for us that one man should die instead of the nation, and not that the whole nation perish.”-Aramaic Bible.
Just because Christ, while upholding the law, was breaking and correcting their man-made traditions. They felt if they allowed Him, the nation would perish.

Now about channelz explanation of Deutronomy, the laws of the land and how it was used against Christ:

This actually gave rise to the eventual assumptions which develop into a belief that Christ's mission was to come and die as you can see in the attached picture below.

You can imagine how His faithful followers and believers SHOCKED, looked upon Him hanging there, fully aware of it's implication in accordance with the laws of the land concerning one who is hanged. While some mocked ("He saved others..." ), some faithful ones actually waited for their Master to come down from the wooden cross or stake.
That was the highlight of the plot; the religious leaders where invariably saying to the people:

There's your Son of God. If He truly is then let His Father show us a sign by bringing Him down..."

Since nothing of such happened, the erroneous belief (erroneous because it is not in tandem with the Words of Christ as we have seen) that this was His mission (to come and allow Himself be killed or to become a curse for us) began to spring up and spread. That was the only way to counter and shun the religious leaders and the disgrace they tried to attach to His Name.

And the religious leaders became even more worried and frustrated saying:

"He (Christ) is more dangerous dead than alive!"

iamjane:

Thanks. But nope, am a Christian and a seeker, I was introduced to the book ie the Message by a friend here in NL.

Ok dearie. We are Christians too, what makes us different from others is the religious aspect and the belief we hold on to. I wish u good understanding of the Message. Peace!

Expressions:
Don't beg the question. An objective answer or view is highly needed. If you have nothing to say then you are welcome to reflect upon it.

And if you must know I'm not an atheist. I'm a Christian.

. No you re not..y are a church goer...(Sorry to say that you). You've proven to me that, U̶̲̥̅̊ re ignorant øƒ certain things... Christ's death on the cross has wiped off all sins in the world.. What's left now is ƒσя us to abide in Him..(John15:1-5)....speaks more. Sin is powerless. Its been rendered powerless by Jesus, cos' Jesus fulfilled the whole Law. (1Pet.2:22) says, Jesus was without sin, no guile was found in His mouth. He was righteous all through till His death. Now, He has made us righteousness øƒ God. We are no longer condemned...(Romans8:1).. So, as a child øƒ God, you re always right with God..U̶̲̥̅̊ can come to His presence any time. That's the privilege we have In Jesus.....#TeamHeaven#