Alexk2:


which bible are you reading sir.? it was paul who made the ministry of the blood more clearer and he wrote the romans that we brought the questn.....how could he and other apostles not have confessed their sin and accept His cleansing blood?....read your bible very well pls.

oprajo:

Jesus died spiritually. the father don't need to forsake him in other that he will be able for man.
Jesus didn't say that only to fulfill prophecy but because it actually happened if not then he will be lying.
Psalm 22 : 1
my God my God why hast thou forsaken me ? WHY ART SO FAR FROM HELPING ME AND FROM THE WORDS OF MY ROARING?
MEANING JESUS cried out for the father help but the father couldn't not that he wouldn't help him . Jesus had taken man place . Every form punishment man had to face jesus faced it . so if jesus didn't die spiritually because man had to die spiritually then he wasn't a legal sacrifice.

The blood of bulls and goats never blotted out sin but only covered because they were not the perfect sacrifice.

The word First begotten in greek is from two words PROTOS WHICH MEANS FIRST AND TIKTO WHICH MEANS TO BORN.
just like when you say my first child or born . what I said also is that I have a at least a second. God is saying that he has those who follow which is the CHURCH.Resurrection mean to bring back to life. Jesus body was RESURRECTED NOT BEGOTTEN. if to BEGOTTEN MEANS TO RESURRRECT THEN JESUS SHOULD HAVE STILL BE CALLED ONLY BEGOTTEN NOT FIRST BEGOTTEN because the church had not been Resurrected physically yet.

if adam hadn't sinned he would have lived for ever not because he had eternal life but because death hadn't entered into the world.

1. "For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord" Rom 6:23

This scripture can only be plausible if the death is physical. For our sin results to death, while Christ gives eternal life. If Christ's gift were only spiritual life, then we will all physically die eternally. Paul was spiritually alive, but he died eventually. You may say, he will be raised as a person, but no, eternal existence was never part of the gift. The gift was just living spiritually (If your argument were to be consistent. that is the implication.)

2. Nope. What is referred to at that 1Cor 15: 55, 56 is not spiritual death, but physical one. Paul's words were after the "saints" had received immortality after resurrection from the dead. Death has no power over them anymore. The "saints" were spiritually alive even before they died, it is only physical death that is there enemy here.

oprajo:

1) Jesus is the one to come that is the second adam.

2 ) stop miss quoting peter. peter never said God one day is our thousand years. answer this question if God one day is our thousand years then when God says I will give you something tomorrow then it means what?
2 peter 3: 8-9
but beloved be not ignorant of this one thing that one day is with God as a thousand yearsand a thousand years as one day.
9) The lord is nt SLACK concerning his promises as some men count slackness but is long-suffering to us ward not willing that any should perish but all should come to repentance.

in context of what peter is saying that a thousand years is AS A DAY. he didn't say a thousand years is a day but as a . that is a figure of SPEECH was used here . which is simile. The use of as and like.
when I say be bold AS a lion . does that mean that you are a lion?
the next verse he talked about people accusing God of slackness . The
verses from 3-10 was about the rapture . God doesn't dwell in time but msb does . That is why God doesn't have a future or a past . he dwells in eternity.

3) death has been abolished, defeated but hasn't been destroyed.
1 corinthians 15: 26
the last enemy that shall been destroyed is death.
Death doesn't reign again because it has been defeated but it will be destroyed. Spiritual and physical death had no authority over a christian. you die when you chose not when death chooses
so a christian can't die spiritually but dies physically not because he physical death has authority over him but because his body is mortal. when he will be given the immortal body at the time of the rapture

JMAN05:


Guess you now know that not only pre-Christian servants of God that are affected.



Oga, God can use the word "day" in different ways to refer to different duration of time. 2Pet. 3:8 shows that God can view a "day" to be 1000 years in length. At 2Peter, the word used there should not be viewed with english mirror. Use Greek. The word which occurs there is "hoos". And according to Thayer's lexicon, this word refers to equality/similarity.

However, God's view of the word "day'' is not limited to that. See Gen 2:4, Heb 4:4, 5 to see that the word "day" as used in the bible does not always refer to a 24-hour duration.

So, even if Adam lived up to 930 years, he hasn't crossed God's "day".



In as much as he has a mortal body, death has authority over him. You cant ask "death where is your sting". How can you ask that when Paul was discussing the subject of resurrection in that chapter. Those he was writing to had dead brothers, but are having doubt about the truthfulness of the resurrection. Lets see the immediate context of that verse.

vs 22 shows that all are dying because of Adam. why? He died and we inherited death from him. (Isn't that revealing?) but resurrection is 'cos of Christ.

vs 23 Resurrection will proceed. First Christ, second, the "saints" during his presence.

24 Paul used the word "next" to usher in the 24th verse. This shows that events will take that order. The end. then Christ will hand over power to Jehovah his God. that is, when Christ must have brought down "all" government/authority and power on earth.

25 still dilating on the verse 24 point, but stating that among the enemies to be wiped out, death is the last.

vs 26 buttressed the point further that death will be brought to nix or nothing.

If you atleast believe that all saints have never been raised, and that all governments have never been brought to nothing, then death has never been brought to nothing according to that context. In short, arguing that point is not reasonable, unless you are new in the word of God.

Paul's words at 1cor. 15;55, 56 is said after the "saints" had been raised up as immortal persons. Now that death cant hold them, they can then shout/ask death, "where is your sting". Please read verse 54 to see what lead to that verse 55.

But spiritual death has no power over the "saints" as you said.

JMAN05:


1. When in particular did Jesus take man's place, thereby being spiritually dead? Tell me when that started with the scriptures.

2. "Even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God" 1Pet 3:18

Who is that righteous person? and is someone separated from God righteous?



1. The sacrifices done through the Law was a type for Christ's sacrifice. Yes or no?

2. Let me paste the account:

Heb 9:14
14[b] how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works so that we may render sacred service to the living God?[/b]

What do you understand by the word "blemish/spot"?

If Christ was imperfect when offering the sacrifice, isn't that a spot?



Who said that "begotten" means to resurrect?

I said that "first born from the dead" as mentioned in that revelation, is that Christ was the first to be raised immortal. That he was the first does not mean that he is the ONLY one who will receive such resurrection. That is so that you don't misinterpret the scriptures anymore.

If you are referring to Heb 1:5, then what you have above is not what I said.



From your words, why he died was because of sin. Right?

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You ve not replied to this posts:

oprajo:

IN TAKING MAN'S PLACE HE HAD TO BE SPIRITUALLY DEAD BECAUSE MAN WAS SPIRITUALLY DEAD. THAT WAS WHY HE CRIED TO THE FATHER. if it was just a physical death then any body could have been able to pay for his sins by just dying physically. if he didn't die spiritually then why is he called the first born from the dead . I explained this statement in my previous write up. if he didn't die spiritually how could he be able to save us from spiritual death.
Ephesians 2:1
and you HATH HE QUICKENED who were DEAD in trespasses and sins.
there are only three death mentioned in the bible
1) spiritual 2) physical 3) eternal.
the verse says we were quickened that is made alive when we were dead in our trespasses. WHICH DEATH WAS HE REFERRING TO.
PHYSICAL? NO if not why is Abraham still dead and why did the apostles still die.
Eternal? no because it is not for a christian
Spiritual ? yes because we were spiritually dead because of sin. HE MADE US ALIVE FROM spiritual death. How did God do it?

Ephesians 2:4-5
but God who is rich in mercy for his great love wherewith he loved us
EVEN WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN OUR SINS HAS QUICKENED US TOGETHER WITH CHRIST (BY GRACE ARE YOU SAVED THROUGH FAITH)
NOTICE he made ud alive with Christ . was it physical no because physically the body is still mortal but spiritually.also physically Jesus resurrected alone. Christ died spiritually that was why he could save us from spiritual death. when jesus died spiritually it was now possible for God to make us alive from spiritual death with him . God made us alive TOGETHER with Christ. How could this be if Christ never died spiritually.

He was righteous but he took our place so that could be possible to have his place. see the redemption of man was legal . The devil wasn't cheated if the devil was cheated then God would be unjust.
They were all type of Christ but WERE NOT CHRIST. The bulls were only able to ATONE I.E COVER NOT BLOT .so they were not equal in value.so they couldn't accomplish the same thing Christ sacrificed himself
the word without blemish means spotless . the blood being spotless doesn't mean jesus never died spiritually. if that was so then how could God then put our sins on him and how could he be made sin because it will still affect his blood EXCEPT IF HE HIMSELF IS THE SACRIFICE. the blood was part of the sacrifice not the only sacrifice.

he was the first to be raised immortal correct but the verse said FIRST BORN NOT FIRST RAISED. he was the first to be BORN OUT OF SPIRITUAL DEATH. if the FIRST BEGOTTEN IS THE SAME AS TO BE THE FIRST TO BE RAISED IMMORTAL THEN WHAT IS THE MEANING OF ONLY BEGOTTEN? The only one to be raised immortal?
then you will incorrect because he called the only born before he had the immortal body. and when you say my first born is it equivalent to first to be raised with immortal body? .

the wages of sin is death. ... if it was physical then adam moses paid for their sins because they died physically. I have repeated this physical death occurs because spiritual death happened. that payment is spiritual .If adam hadn't sinned will he still die? no he wouldn't die physically not because he has eternal life but because he is still connected to his source I.e God

oprajo:

Genesis 2:3-5
and God said let there be LIGHT. and the there was light.
and God saw the light and it was good and God DIVIDED THE LIGHT FROM DARKNESS
and God called the LIGHT DAY AND THE DARKNESS NIGHT. AND THE EVENING AND MORNING WERE THE FIRST DAY.

This verses say nothing of God seeing a day to be equal to 1000years.
they show clearly that God created light then named it day then for darkness and named it night. notice again that day and night were created. if God has his day how could he then create day.

Hebrews 4:4
and he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise
and God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

which verse was paul quoting
Genesis 2:2
and on the seventh day God ended his work which he made and he rested on seventh day from all his work which he had made.

God rested on the seventh day after he created day and night. so God has no day . he created it.

1 corinthians 15 vs 55- 56
I said before death has been defeated not destroyed. that verse talked about we receiving the immortal body. but death has no authority over the christian.

1 corinthians 3:22
whether paul or apollos or cephas or the world OR LIFE OR DEATH OR THINGS PRESENT OR THINGS TO COME ALL ARE YOURS

he tells us that we OWN DEATH. NOT THE OPPOSITE

MrPresident1:
It is spiritual death, and they remain dead till today, mentally dead. They are in the grave waiting for the voice of the son of God that will wake them up.

John 5:25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

JMAN05:


The verse you quoted talks about those who are dead spiritually, but those who are physically dead will be raised in the future. See verse 28, 29.

Paul acknowledged that uncleanness or sin lead to death. Rom 6:21, he now stated the formular, that the wages of sin is death verse 23, but the gift of christ is everlasting life.

If the wages is spiritual death, then the gift of life is spiritual life, not physical life. It then means that those who die will not be raised from the dead, because that is not part of Christ's gift. That is, for the logic to be consistent.

MrPresident1:


You are not quite right.
That verse is talking about the spiritually dead, and Paul takes his Precepts from;

Ezekiel 31:15
Thus saith the Lord God; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him.

The resurrection is for the spiritually dead, the mentally dead, not the physically dead Isaiah 29:14. The physical dead remain dead until they reincarnate again. There is such a thing as reincarnation. But for the spiritually dead, there will be a spiritual reawakening, also called the resurrection, the resurrection of the Negros, the original Israelites of the Bible, also allegorically called Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve are sleeping in the dust of the earth, holed up in graves, mentally and spiritually dead.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5:25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

DEagle1:
Happy sunday to all.
I have been trying to reconcile and settle this for a long time now to no avail. I trust i will find what i'm looking for here on nl as always.
According to Genesis 2vs17 :but the tree of good and evil , thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest of it thou shalt surely "die".
Genesis 3vs4: and the serpent said to the woman, Ye shall not surely "die".
Romans 5vs14: nevertheless "death" reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that has not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression. ---ALL KJV
So the above verses what kind of death were the referring to; spiritual, physical or otherwise? Please i wish most of you wiil address this. thanks

JMAN05:


Oh my goodness! do you even read my comment before responding? I gave you those verses to show that God can view "day" to be of different durations. You were insisting on 24hr day and a gave that to clear you a little.

I only gave you Gen 2:4, you have brought other portions which will confuse you the more. And now, you missed the point. You didnt even quote verse 4 where you were rushing.

Gen 2:4:

"This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven"

After the creation that took place in the verses and chapter previously which lasted for more than 5 days, this gen 2:4, said that all those things happened in a "day". How many hours is that "day"?
( quote ) the word " day " is translated from the Hebrew word
YOWM. it means day , year and can also mean Time.
he was not saying the day in respect to day and night but in respect to time . that is the time God created heavens and earth. The next verse says When no plant of the field. ..... (/quote)

The way KJV rendered that Gen 2:2 is wrong. They said "rested". That is wrong. The Hebrew verb that occurred there is waiyishboth. This verb is an imperfect verb which denotes an incomplete action. It should be translated "began to rest". God's rest didnt end that literal 24-hr day. God's 7th day of rest took even more than a 1000 years in length.

Paul added to that truth in Heb. 4:4, 5, but again you were in a rush that you quoted only verse 4. Read my comments very well dear.

Paul, in verse 3 showed that God's creative work were completed long time ego, yet he made a statement, "they shall not enter into my rest", which shows that God's rest was still on till the days of David and even Paul.

So God began to rest after the creation, but His rest has not ended. In all this long time, it is still 7th day not days.



Owning death does not mean you won't die, does it?

2. If you atleast believe that all saints have never been raised, and that all governments have never been brought to nothing, then death has never been brought to nothing according to that context. Do you believe that?

1cor. 15:54, 55 "But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up forever". [size=15]Death where is your victory"?[/size]

Answer:

a. When will the saying above take place?

b. What lead to the shout "death where is your victory"? [see preceding phrase]

c. So, when does the defeat totally take place?

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Try and break the quotation before you post a comment.

If you want to qyote by comments one by one. Do this at the beginning eg

JMAN05:


Oh my goodness! do you even read my comment before responding? I gave you those verses to show that God can view "day" to be of different durations. You were insisting on 24hr day and a gave that to clear you a little.

I only gave you Gen 2:4, you have brought other portions which will confuse you the more. And now, you missed the point. You didnt even quote verse 4 where you were rushing.

Gen 2:4:

"This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven"

After the creation that took place in the verses and chapter previously which lasted for more than 5 days, this gen 2:4, said that all those things happened in a "day". How many hours is that "day"?
(/quote) the word " day " is translated from the Hebrew word
YOWM. it means day , year and can also mean Time.
he was not saying the day in respect to day and night but in respect to time . that is the time God created heavens and earth. The next verse says When no plant of the field. ..... (/quote)

The way KJV rendered that Gen 2:2 is wrong. They said "rested". That is wrong. The Hebrew verb that occurred there is waiyishboth. This verb is an imperfect verb which denotes an incomplete action. It should be translated "began to rest". God's rest didnt end that literal 24-hr day. God's 7th day of rest took even more than a 1000 years in length.

Paul added to that truth in Heb. 4:4, 5, but again you were in a rush that you quoted only verse 4. Read my comments very well dear.

Paul, in verse 3 showed that God's creative work were completed long time ego, yet he made a statement, "they shall not enter into my rest", which shows that God's rest was still on till the days of David and even Paul.

So God began to rest after the creation, but His rest has not ended. In all this long time, it is still 7th day not days.



Owning death does not mean you won't die, does it?

2. If you atleast believe that all saints have never been raised, and that all governments have never been brought to nothing, then death has never been brought to nothing according to that context. Do you believe that?

1cor. 15:54, 55 "But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up forever". [size=15]Death where is your victory"?[/size]

Answer:

a. When will the saying above take place?

b. What lead to the shout "death where is your victory"? [see preceding phrase]

c. So, when does the defeat totally take place?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Try and break the quotation before you post a comment.

If you want to qyote by comments one by one. Do this at the beginning eg