I decided to make this into its own thread, because I did not want to further derail the African American women beauty thread. But anyways here's a recent post I made in that thread towards a post to Fulaman198.
Completely untrue, there are 30 million AA, and Caribbeans include Jamaicans, Trini people, Dominican, Puerto Rican, Haitian, Martinique and Guadeloupe, Bahamas, Barbados, etc. Etc.
Mines:
Actually 40 million+. The Caribbean population combined is 20 million. So yes that character is correct in saying that AA population is much larger than the Caribbean population.
Throughout reading through this thread I kept hearing ridiculous over-exaggerations that AA's have large portions of Caribbean ancestry/admixture. False. Most do not. Maybe in the Northeast and Florida where Caribbean and African populations are largely concentrated, but not the South, DMV area or West; especially the south where AA's are not only largely concentrated, but where they come from. So yes I disagree that AA's are not a homogeneous group.
The Caribbean population in America is said to be 2.2 million while the African 2.9 million. The AA population is over 40K!!! Thats FAR TOO small to have a large effect on the AA population. Far too small. Me I'm the exception AA/Haitian, but I live in a community in NY with a rather large Caribbean population(mostly Haitian/Jamaican). So no coincidence.
And yes AA's are an ethnic group.
African Americans, also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, is an ethnic group of citizens or residents of the United States with total or partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa.
And no language is not the only factor in being an ethnic group. Otherwise Scottish and English would be the same ethic. Or the Manchu people and Han Chinese would be the same ethnic.
To me this myth had to be debunked. @RandomAfricanAm and @Supper can further elaborate if need be.
On this site there seems to be an over-exaggerating idea that AA's are not a homogeneous population and AA blacks having large populations of non-AA ancestry, while that may be only partially true, the bulk of AA's in America whether they be from the Northeast, West or Midwest traces their cultural and historical roots back to the south; pre-Jim crow. That imo is what makes the "African American".
Again the Caribbean and African population are far too small to influence on African Americans.
Another myth is that AA's have roots in the Caribbean when slaves were bought into continental North America. Another myth. That's only partially true. The truth is slaves were needed for their specific skills, like rice cultivating. Many of the slaves in South Carolina, Georgia and many of the southern states were taken directly from Africa. For example slaves from the Senegambia region were in high demand for their skills in rice:
Another myth on here is that AA's do not have their own culture or that their culture is white-washted. For that I'll just post three quotes from a thread on another site that I made brutally refuting this myth:
This is going to be a long ass thread with me trying to debunk some many misconceptions. And not trying to cause any division, but what made me want to create this thread is because I see a lot online that Africans, Caribbeans and whites have this big fallacy that Black American culture is largely "Europeanized" due the African traits being erased during slavery. This is not true. One can point to the Gullah's and Creoles as proof of Black American culture not being Europeanized, but I'm gonna go deeper.
Also many(not all of them) of them sometimes assume that Black American don't even have our own distinct culture(music, cusinine, dance, folk tales, ceremonies etc.) or that simply American pop/urban culture is only Black American culture, which couldn't be further from the truth. American pop/urban culture takes bits and pieces from Black American culture(mostly new age) NOT the other way around. But all, not even most, aspects of Black American culture are necessarily mainstream, nor is most of it based in "urbacenters", seeing as Black American culture is largely rooted in rural traditions of the US south, and fairly recently moved and evolved in big urbacenter(NYC,CHI,L.A., etc etc) with the great migration of Black American people to large metropolitan areas.
But the second paragraph is not the point, because we do know us Black Americans DO HAVE our own distinct culture in America that is not only "Urban". But is it "Europeanized?" The answer is no and actually the other way around. The oppressed influencing the oppressing. Yes Black American culture is influenced Europeans/whites in some way, BUT the influence on American culture by blacks in America trumps the European influence on blacks in America. One can point to the many music genre's. To me that does not indicate that Black American culture is "Europeanized." Is Black American culture African? I would say Black American culture evolved into something different, but it is JUST as African influenced as any other black culture of the diaspora; Jamaican, Afro-Brazilian, Haitian, Afro-Dominican, Afro-Cuban, Bahamian,etc,etc,etc...
I'm gonna start with music since: 1. Its easiest for me to address. 2. Music plays a big part in Black American culture. 3. Music seems to be the root of the misconception.
To me the reason why people outside AA's like Africans, Caribbeans and whites think our culture is "white-washed" or "Europeanized" is because Black American music isn't exactly polyrhythm/percussion heavy like that which is found in among other people in the African diaspora. Something like this...
As we know almost all percussion playing music was banned among slaves in North America, largely due to the Stono Rebellion of Angolan slaves in South Carolina, excluding Congo square New Orleans on Sundays(the French and Spanish had a slightly different more lenient system of slavery than did the Anglo-Americans). So, the heavily percussion based Lower West African and Central African styles of music eventually died out in North America for the most part, except among a few key styles and places in North America ie South Carolina Gullahs, Southern Louisiana creoles, Northern Mississippi fife and drum blues(though that isn't Lower West African or Central African derived, but from polyrhythmic Fulani flute and drum music), and African-American southern spirituals.
So with the low amount of African polyrhythm/percussion in North America, one would question HOW IS Black American music African influenced and not just largely Europeanized?
[B]To be continued in next post:[/B]
The things...People look passed the part that Africa is a large and diverse continent, but not only that slaves were taken all the way from Senegal all the way down to Angola. First off most the Africans that came to America came DIRECTLY from Africa, just like any other place in the diaspora, I think people sometimes confuse the slave trader stopping in an island such as Hispaniola as a resting point to refuel, before heading to North America, with them dropping off all of the African slaves in the Caribbean, and taking the Caribbean born slaves to America, and such was not the case for the most part. And people also tend to forget that there were plenty of America born slaves(essentially AAs) that ended up in the Caribbean in the 18th and 19th century, but that's another story.
More importantly the thing African-Americans culturally and musically apart from Afro-descendants from Latin-America and the Caribbean is that our music and culture is Sahelian/Sudanic cultural influence. Like I said most slaves in North America can directly from Africa, because certain slaves were needed for their specific skill(not no damn selective breeding, but that's another story). More slaves in North America compared to other parts of the diaspora(like Brazil, Jamaica, Haiti,etc) came from Upper West Africa Islamic influenced Sudanic/Sahelian region. Why? Because the cotton, rice, and cattle culture and the landscape of North America. Thus slaves from this specific region in Africa were said to be more fit for the type of labor to be done in North America. [QUOTE][I]It is estimated that over 50% of the slaves imported to North America came from areas where Islam was followed by at least a minority population. Thus, no less than 200,000 came from regions influenced by Islam. Substantial numbers originated from Senegambia, a region with an established community of Muslim inhabitants extending to the 11th century.[/I][/QUOTE] [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States[/URL]
Of the approximately 388,000 Africans who landed in America, almost 92,000 (24 percent) were Senegambians. In the early decades of immigration to the Chesapeake region before 1700, there were more immigrants from Senegambia (almost 6,000) than from the Bight of Biafra (about 5,000), and they totaled about 31,000 by the end of the migration, representing almost a third of all arrivals from Senegambia. About 45,000 Senegambians were settled in the coastal Low Country of the Carolinas and Georgia, where they constituted 21 percent of African immigrants. Senegambians were also prominent among African immigrants in the northern colonies, accounting for about 28 percent of arrivals, or over 7,000 people. Almost 9,000 Senegambians — often identified as Bambara or Mandingo — went to the Gulf region, especially to Louisiana, where they constituted about 40 percent of the population arriving from Africa. Hence, [COLOR=#ff0000]people from Senegambia were prominent everywhere in the United States, much more so than virtually anywhere else in the Western Hemisphere[/COLOR], although there were also considerable numbers of Senegambians in the French Caribbean islands and in French Guiana. Senegambia was strongly influenced by Islam, more so than any other region of origin, which means that many enslaved Africans in the United States had been exposed to Islam, more so proportionately than in the rest of the Americas. There were many Muslims in Brazil in the nineteenth century, mostly in Bahia, but they came from the central Sudan (northern Nigeria and adjacent areas), unlike those who were sent to the United States. Muslims were clearly present in both the low country of Carolina and Georgia and in the Tidewater region of Virginia and Maryland. Adult Muslim males stand out prominently, while there are very few references to Muslim women. This reflects what is known about the slave trade originating in the interior of West Africa, which was composed almost entirely of males."
"Thereafter, planters in South Carolina, Georgia and Louisiana preferred enslaved Africans from Senegambia because of their experience in rice cultivation. This would explain in part why Americans imported a relatively large proportion of Senegambians. In French Louisiana, a captain was instructed “to try to purchase several blacks who know how to cultivate rice."
Famous white Natchez Mississippi planter/slaver, William Dunbar, express that Mississippi planters held a preference for Africans from the interior, stating "there are certain nations from the interior of Africa the individuals of which I have always found more civilized, at least better disposed than those from the coast, such as Bornon, Houssa, Zanfara, Zegzeg, Kapina, and Tombootoo regions". "The bornon" are those from the bornu empire, the "Houssa" are the Hausa, "Kapina" refers to those from the Katsina region of present day northern /Vigeria and Southern Niger. "Zanfara" refers to the Zamfara region, another region in present day Northern /Vigeria and southern Niger. Tombootoo refers to the Bambara of Mail. All of these regions had heavy islamic influenced populations.
While an estimated 30% of the slaves brought to colonial America from Africa arrived as Muslims, Islam was stringently suppressed on plantations.
In this study, we examine Y-chromosome genetic variation in African descendant populations. In addition, we search for genetic evidence of substantial Senegambian “Grain Coast” ancestry in African American males from South Carolina. Finally, we consider the paternal African origins of several African descendant populations throughout the Americas. In doing this we hope to not only provide a genetic perspective to compliment historical investigations into the issue of African geographical origins but also contribute to the understanding of the genetic structure of African American populations. Understanding the variation present in these populations has implicit ramifications on admixture mapping and association studies in this admixed politically defined ‘macro-ethnic’ group.
The study of recent natural selection in human populations has important applications to human history and medicine. Positive natural selection drives the increase in beneficial alleles and plays a role in explaining diversity across human populations. By discovering traits subject to positive selection, we can better understand the population level response to environmental pressures including infectious disease. Our study examines unusual population differentiation between three large data sets to detect natural selection. The populations examined, African Americans, Nigerians, and [COLOR=#ff0000]Gambians[/COLOR], are genetically close to one another (F(ST) < 0.01 for all pairs), allowing us to detect selection even with moderate changes in allele frequency. We also develop a tree-based method to pinpoint the population in which selection occurred, incorporating information across populations. Our genome-wide significant results corroborate loci previously reported to be under selection in Africans including HBB and CD36. At the HLA locus on chromosome 6, results suggest the existence of multiple, independent targets of population-specific selective pressure. In addition, we report a genome-wide significant (p = 1.36 × 10(-11)) signal of selection in the prostate stem cell antigen (PSCA) gene.
Now... Now... For those who may have the wrong idea. I am not saying that AA's are largely of Muslim ancestry. No! Nor am I saying that AA's are ancestry largely come from those areas, BUT that compared to others of the diasporas, more slaves from the Savannah/Sahel/Islamic areas were shipped to North America than Latin-America and the Caribbean and thus largely influenced our culture. And because of that our music is mostly derived from the solo, string and wind based from the Savannah/Sahel areas.
[B]To Be Continued in Next Post:[/B]
Back to music... Like I said Savannah/Sahelian Africans had the most influence on Black American music(heck one can argue that rapping came from West African griots from the Sahel). Again the misconception comes due to the lack of percussion/polyrhym in AA music.
Again a lot of people tend to have this ignorant misconception that just because there's not a heavy percussion based polyrhythmic aspect in North American African-American music, that it's not African, but European influenced, which isn't true in the slightest. Once again Africa is a LARGE continent, in which there's not only one type of music cluster or style. The majority of our musical influences comes from the Upper West African Sahel and Sudanic savanna regions of Africa which uses a lot more simplistic cross-beat rhythm(which gives American music it's swing-feel and bluesey feel) to accentuate the highly melosmatic wind and string instruments with a booming vocal/instrument harmony- All aspects of African-American music.
For example Afro-Cubans take the majority of their influence from Lower West African and Central African bantu music which IS very polyrhythmic & percussion based. While we do not. The difference is even noted. [quote]Afro-Cuban and African American music is very similar yet very different. Why? Because “essential elements of these two musics came from different parts of Africa, entering the New World by different routes, at different times, into differently structured societies” (Sublette, 159). These essential elements in African American music do not appear in Cuban music: swing and the blues scale. Cuban music contains elements of the clave (a rhythmic key) and “those undulating, repeating, melodic-rhythmic loops of fixed pitches called guajeo, montuno, or tumbao” (159). The reason for these differences was that they reflected two different musical styles that of Sudanic Africa and forest Africa.[/QUOTE] http://soyguajira..com/2012/03/african-american-vs-afro-cuban.html
^^^Not understanding the difference like above is the reason why some(still to this day btw) try to claim Blues is largely European influenced, when that false.
Lets take a look at what PH.d ethnomusicologist Gerhard Kubik had to say about Mississippi Delta Blues(the purest of the blues and root of popular American music), "I have had difficulty detecting any significant European musical components in this style, aside from the use of Western factory-manufactured equipment."
Fantastic interview on the Afropop website by PH.d, ethnomusicologist, Gerhard Kubik, a white European, on the African stylistic origins of the blues. http://www.afropop.org/wp/6275/africa-and-the-blues/ Complete with side by side comparisons of Western Sudanic African music to early African-American blues in the south.
Interesting read, i did not really know to much about you guys other than pop culture. However your people like all people are ignorant about many things.
ababda: Interesting read, i did not really know to much about you guys other than pop culture. However your people like all people are ignorant about many things.
Glad you enjoyed it.
If you want to see more I suggest you link on the link. A lot of good stuff posted.
If you want to see more I suggest you link on the link. A lot of good stuff posted.
? Why do some people in the Americas claim the "Nile Valley civilization" since their ancestors don't come from here? Mind you,this is not a personal interaction situation, but more or less the internet phenomena i have noticed.
? Why do some people in the Americas claim the "Nile Valley civilization" since their ancestors don't come from here? Mind you,this is not a personal interaction situation, but more or less the internet phenomena i have noticed.
Those are only the hardcore Afrocentrics. While I do agree people who would be labeled "black" would have played a significant rule in the development of early Nile Valley states to come. I disagree African Americans have anything connections to them. Again only the hardcore.
Me I'm starting to try and study early AA history/culture because to me it helps us connect the dots. And dismiss certain misconceptions that I listed.
My Thoughts exactly. 500 years is more than enough to make you an ethnic group. Btw, my tribe did not exist 500 years ago.
One factor of ethnic identity that the AA population may lack is common ancestry, but the fact the group has been intermarrying for so long makes is a closely related group.
You know you are an African tribe when your people have issues with another African group. That is the African curse of tribal rivalry, so by all means, AAs have earned their place as another African tribe.
I would class Carribean blacks according to the Islands they come from for the same reasons.
KidStranglehold: I decided to make this into its own thread, because I did not want to further derail the African American women beauty thread. But anyways here's a recent post I made in that thread towards a post to Fulaman198.
His response:
Mines:
On this site there seems to be an over-exaggerating idea that AA's are not a homogeneous population and AA blacks having large populations of non-AA ancestry, while that may be only partially true, the bulk of AA's in America whether they be from the Northeast, West or Midwest traces their cultural and historical roots back to the south; pre-Jim crow. That imo is what makes the "African American".
Again the Caribbean and African population are far too small to influence on African Americans.
Another myth is that AA's have roots in the Caribbean when slaves were bought into continental North America. Another myth. That's only partially true. The truth is slaves were needed for their specific skills, like rice cultivating. Many of the slaves in South Carolina, Georgia and many of the southern states were taken directly from Africa. For example slaves from the Senegambia region were in high demand for their skills in rice:
You completely misinterpreted what I said. Maybe it was poorly written. Let me rephrase it for you. I said there are 30 million African Americans, in regards to Caribbean people, Caribbean people include Jamaicans, Trini people, Dominican, Puerto Rican, Haitian, Martinique and Guadeloupe, Bahamas, Barbados, etc. Etc.
You completely misinterpreted what I said. Maybe it was poorly written. Let me rephrase it for you. I said there are 30 million African Americans, in regards to Caribbean people, Caribbean people include Jamaicans, Trini people, Dominican, Puerto Rican, Haitian, Martinique and Guadeloupe, Bahamas, Barbados, etc. Etc.
But the poster you quoted said that there were more AA's than Caribbeans in general. That was his point IIRC. His post:
How is what I said silly??
AA's are a way bigger group than Caribbeans. AA's are like the single largest ethic black group. We have way more looks than Caribbean people and are mixed with way more African tribes compared to Caribbeans. That is a fact.
I can tell who is African American and who is Jamaican. I can even tell the difference between Americanized Caribbeans. I am not trying to do no dividing, but stating experience.
I disagree with his point about AA's having "more" looks than Caribbeans, but he's right as in that the AA population is larger. Maybe I did misinterpret what you said. Maybe you were just replying to the "looks" argument he was making.
But the poster you quoted said that there were more AA's than Caribbeans in general. That was his point IIRC. His post:
I disagree with his point about AA's having "more" looks than Caribbeans, but he's right as in that the AA population is larger. Maybe I did misinterpret what you said. Maybe you were just replying to the "looks" argument he was making.
There are more Hausa than there are AA's so no, he is wrong again. Brazilian blacks are also far more than AA's so everything he said was wrong. Ethiopian blacks? Should I continue?
Actually the Hausa population is 35+ million while the African American population is 40+ million(excluding Caribbeans and Africans). So the AA population is slightly more than the Hausa. But I get what you mean and yeah he's wrong.
Wait! Who says African Americans aren't their own ethnic group?
The fact that they came from Regions stretching from Senegal to Angola as Fulani, Yoruba, Igbo, Kongo etc. don't mean that they are still Yoruba, Igbo, Kongo
Like someone already mentioned, 500yrs of being away from your homeland is enough to create a distinct ethnic identity
But I am forced to say that AAs today are more "Western" than "African" in terms of cultural attitude and it's not suppose to be so, the African factor is fast dropping
KidStranglehold: Actually the Hausa population is 35+ million while the African American population is 40+ million(excluding Caribbeans and Africans). So the AA population is slightly more than the Hausa. But I get what you mean and yeah he's wrong.
But what do you mean with "Ethiopian blacks"?
I meant Oromo, but I guess AAs are more. What makes you say that African Americans are their own ethnicity?
We have our own unique culture, ancestry and linguistic heritage, which doesn't necessarily have to mean a whole distinct language, but dialects and loan word, even though there are whole languages unique to AAs.
There are groups on the African continent itself such as the Congo people of Liberia who's identity was formed in the last 300 years, being the descendants of escaped serfs/slaves from Central Africa who migrated to the rice coast of west africa and can't trace their ancestry to a specific ethnic group in Central Africa, but just know that their ancestors came from that general area of the congo river basin. They speak a unique form of Central African influenced English.
I believe that they should. Even though they have african ancestry, majority know nothing about africa/not in touch with Africa and overtime they have built their own unique culture where they can relate to one another.They should have their own ethnicity.
I would say even physical features unique to AAs, as there.
They are a mix of many physical features which many times exist separately according to ethnic groups( as in Bantus, Nilotes....or rather, smaller, specific ethnicities) in Africa.
We have to first understand what an ethnic group is before we assume the name or any group or otherwise. According to the Oxford dictionary, an ethnic group or ethnicity is a socially defined category of people who identify with each other based on common ancestral, social, cultural or national experience. So, i don't see why AA don't fit the description.
muafrika: I would say even physical features unique to AAs, as there.
They are a mix of many physical features which many times exist separately according to ethnic groups( as in Bantus, Nilotes....or rather, smaller, specific ethnicities) in Africa.
slave records, genetics, culture. why would they go far into Africa to get slaves when there are plenty on the coast
I see you're not only severely lacking in knowledge when it comes to African ethnography, but also of African diasporan ethnography.
Famous white Natchez Mississippi planter/slaver, William Dunbar, express that Mississippi planters held a preference for Africans from the interior, stating "there are certain nations from the interior of Africa the individuals of which I have always found more civilized, at least better disposed than those from the coast, such as Bornon, Houssa, Zanfara, Zegzeg, Kapina, and Tombootoo regions". "The bornon" are those from the bornu empire, the "Houssa" are the Hausa, "Kapina" refers to those from the Katsina region of present day northern Nigeria and Southern Niger. "Zanfara" refers to the Zamfara region, another region in present day Northern Nigeria and southern Niger. Tombootoo refers to the Bambara of Mail. All of these regions had heavy islamic influenced populations.
I see you're not only severely lacking in knowledge when it comes to African ethnography, but also of African diasporan ethnography.
Famous white Natchez Mississippi planter/slaver, William Dunbar, express that Mississippi planters held a preference for Africans from the interior, stating "there are certain nations from the interior of Africa the individuals of which I have always found more civilized, at least better disposed than those from the coast, such as Bornon, Houssa, Zanfara, Zegzeg, Kapina, and Tombootoo regions". "The bornon" are those from the bornu empire, the "Houssa" are the Hausa, "Kapina" refers to those from the Katsina region of present day northern /Vigeria and Southern /Viger. "Zanfara" refers to the Zamfara region, another region in present day Northern /Vigeria and southern /Viger. Tombootoo refers to the Bambara of Mail. All of these regions had heavy islamic influenced populations.
I'm disputing your erroneous point about slaves only coming from the coast of Africa, which wasn't the case, especially for those destined for mainland North America where they were actually preferred. I didn't say anything about nilotes.
That's a Fulani if he's from Fouta Tooro we call them Toroodo (Singular) or Toroobe (Plural) in the Fulani language. They are also know as the Tukulor (Toucouleur) or Haal'pulaaren from which Baaba Maal hails from. They are a different subgroup of Fulani people probably mixed with other groups as they don't bare core Fulani features.
I'm disputing your erroneous point about slaves only coming from the coast of Africa, which wasn't the case, especially for those destined for mainland North America where they were actually preferred. I didn't say anything about nilotes.
i did not say only i just said why would they go through the trouble. their are Malagasy slaves in peru but it's very small compared to the niger-congo groups. anyway Tyra Banks height is not because of nilotic genes.
That's a Fulani if he's from Fouta Tooro we call them Toroodo (Singular) or Toroobe (Plural) in the Fulani language. They are also know as the Tukulor (Toucouleur) or Haal'pulaaren from which Baaba Maal hails from. They are a different subgroup of Fulani people probably mixed with other groups as they don't bare core Fulani features.
Thanks. And I am aware of some of sub-groups and relatives of the Fulani. And yes, being from the Futo Tooro, he's probably from the Toucouleur sub-group, which also has relations with the Serer people. Fula captives in America hailed from many different nations. And North American slavers, in particular, like James Hamilton Couper seemed to hold them in relatively high regard(in comparison to other slaves), often entrusting them with task of micro-managing the plantations of the owners.
Many freed AAs of Fulani ancestry who returned to Africa reintegrated with the Fulani-proper, creating the Fulani-Krio people in Serria Leone.
slave records, genetics, culture. why would they go far into Africa to get slaves when there are plenty on the coast
Good point on distance. But the East Coast Arabs reached as far as the Congo, though am not sure they got slaves too. How does genetics prove? I thought many AAs were Nilotic while South Americans and islanders were mostly Bantu thanks to the Portuguese dealing with mostly East and Central African slaves while Brits dealt with W. Africa?
SECTION 4 The term Negro is confined to slave Africans (The ancient Berbers) and their descendants. It does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors, or the Negro Asiatics, such as Lascars.
I know its a bit off topic but it seems to hint that during the period of slavery, "negro" was not only synonymous with "Berber", but most of the slaves were Berbers.
