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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / What Does The Bible Mean By 'death' According To Gen 2vs17, 3vs4 And Rom 5vs14 (3468 Views)
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Re: What Does The Bible Mean By 'death' According To Gen 2vs17, 3vs4 And Rom 5vs14 by Nobody: 9:26am On Jan 26, 2015 |
Alexk2: Go back I read my comment carefully Sir. |
Re: What Does The Bible Mean By 'death' According To Gen 2vs17, 3vs4 And Rom 5vs14 by Nobody: 8:37pm On Jan 26, 2015 |
oprajo: 1. When in particular did Jesus take man's place, thereby being spiritually dead? Tell me when that started with the scriptures. 2. "Even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God" 1Pet 3:18 Who is that righteous person? and is someone separated from God righteous? The blood of bulls and goats never blotted out sin but only covered because they were not the perfect sacrifice. 1. The sacrifices done through the Law was a type for Christ's sacrifice. Yes or no? 2. Let me paste the account: Heb 9:14 14[b] how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works so that we may render sacred service to the living God?[/b] What do you understand by the word "blemish/spot"? If Christ was imperfect when offering the sacrifice, isn't that a spot? The word First begotten in greek is from two words PROTOS WHICH MEANS FIRST AND TIKTO WHICH MEANS TO BORN. Who said that "begotten" means to resurrect? I said that "first born from the dead" as mentioned in that revelation, is that Christ was the first to be raised immortal. That he was the first does not mean that he is the ONLY one who will receive such resurrection. That is so that you don't misinterpret the scriptures anymore. If you are referring to Heb 1:5, then what you have above is not what I said. if adam hadn't sinned he would have lived for ever not because he had eternal life but because death hadn't entered into the world. From your words, why he died was because of sin. Right? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You ve not replied to this posts: 1. "For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord" Rom 6:23 |
Re: What Does The Bible Mean By 'death' According To Gen 2vs17, 3vs4 And Rom 5vs14 by Nobody: 11:13pm On Jan 26, 2015 |
oprajo: Guess you now know that not only pre-Christian servants of God that are affected. 2 ) stop miss quoting peter. peter never said God one day is our thousand years. answer this question if God one day is our thousand years then when God says I will give you something tomorrow then it means what? Oga, God can use the word "day" in different ways to refer to different duration of time. 2Pet. 3:8 shows that God can view a "day" to be 1000 years in length. At 2Peter, the word used there should not be viewed with english mirror. Use Greek. The word which occurs there is "hoos". And according to Thayer's lexicon, this word refers to equality/similarity. However, God's view of the word "day'' is not limited to that. See Gen 2:4, Heb 4:4, 5 to see that the word "day" as used in the bible does not always refer to a 24-hour duration. So, even if Adam lived up to 930 years, he hasn't crossed God's "day". 3) death has been abolished, defeated but hasn't been destroyed. In as much as he has a mortal body, death has authority over him. You cant ask "death where is your sting". How can you ask that when Paul was discussing the subject of resurrection in that chapter. Those he was writing to had dead brothers, but are having doubt about the truthfulness of the resurrection. Lets see the immediate context of that verse. vs 22 shows that all are dying because of Adam. why? He died and we inherited death from him. (Isn't that revealing?) but resurrection is 'cos of Christ. vs 23 Resurrection will proceed. First Christ, second, the "saints" during his presence. 24 Paul used the word "next" to usher in the 24th verse. This shows that events will take that order. The end. then Christ will hand over power to Jehovah his God. that is, when Christ must have brought down "all" government/authority and power on earth. 25 still dilating on the verse 24 point, but stating that among the enemies to be wiped out, death is the last. vs 26 buttressed the point further that death will be brought to nix or nothing. If you atleast believe that all saints have never been raised, and that all governments have never been brought to nothing, then death has never been brought to nothing according to that context. In short, arguing that point is not reasonable, unless you are new in the word of God. Paul's words at 1cor. 15;55, 56 is said after the "saints" had been raised up as immortal persons. Now that death cant hold them, they can then shout/ask death, "where is your sting". Please read verse 54 to see what lead to that verse 55. But spiritual death has no power over the "saints" as you said. |
Re: What Does The Bible Mean By 'death' According To Gen 2vs17, 3vs4 And Rom 5vs14 by dd12345: 11:15am On Jan 27, 2015 |
oprajo: sorry the bible didn't say a day with God is 1000 years with man because if that is correct then God tells you I will give you something tomorrow then it is after 1000 years. 2 peter 3:8 but beloved be not ignorant of this one thingthat one day is with the lord AS A thousand years and a thousand years AS a one day that is to say God's timing is different from man's timing. God doesn't dwell in time . he dwells in eternity. it is man that dwells in time. When God told adam you will surely die , he was referring to spiritual death. The separation from God. The physical was destined to happen. it is like when you uproot a plant from the earth . it has died but physically it still looks okay but with time it will fade away. GUY...GOD BLESS YOU...THIS IS THE TRUTH...for more undastand, pls everyone...go thru this guy comments for clarity...im recommending it..im bearing witness with this...or if not satisfied, you can ask me for further clarification.. |
Re: What Does The Bible Mean By 'death' According To Gen 2vs17, 3vs4 And Rom 5vs14 by oprajo(m): 12:50pm On Jan 27, 2015 |
JMAN05:Genesis 2:3-5 and God said let there be LIGHT. and the there was light. and God saw the light and it was good and God DIVIDED THE LIGHT FROM DARKNESS and God called the LIGHT DAY AND THE DARKNESS NIGHT. AND THE EVENING AND MORNING WERE THE FIRST DAY. This verses say nothing of God seeing a day to be equal to 1000years. they show clearly that God created light then named it day then for darkness and named it night. notice again that day and night were created. if God has his day how could he then create day. Hebrews 4:4 and he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise and God did rest the seventh day from all his works. which verse was paul quoting Genesis 2:2 and on the seventh day God ended his work which he made and he rested on seventh day from all his work which he had made. God rested on the seventh day after he created day and night. so God has no day . he created it . 1 corinthians 15 vs 55- 56 I said before death has been defeated not destroyed. that verse talked about we receiving the immortal body. but death has no authority over the christian. 1 corinthians 3:22 whether paul or apollos or cephas or the world OR LIFE OR DEATH OR THINGS PRESENT OR THINGS TO COME ALL ARE YOURS he tells us that we OWN DEATH. NOT THE OPPOSITE |
Re: What Does The Bible Mean By 'death' According To Gen 2vs17, 3vs4 And Rom 5vs14 by oprajo(m): 2:09pm On Jan 27, 2015 |
JMAN05:IN TAKING MAN'S PLACE HE HAD TO BE SPIRITUALLY DEAD BECAUSE MAN WAS SPIRITUALLY DEAD. THAT WAS WHY HE CRIED TO THE FATHER. if it was just a physical death then any body could have been able to pay for his sins by just dying physically. if he didn't die spiritually then why is he called the first born from the dead . I explained this statement in my previous write up. if he didn't die spiritually how could he be able to save us from spiritual death. Ephesians 2:1 and you HATH HE QUICKENED who were DEAD in trespasses and sins. there are only three death mentioned in the bible 1) spiritual 2) physical 3) eternal. the verse says we were quickened that is made alive when we were dead in our trespasses. WHICH DEATH WAS HE REFERRING TO. PHYSICAL? NO if not why is Abraham still dead and why did the apostles still die. Eternal? no because it is not for a christian Spiritual ? yes because we were spiritually dead because of sin. HE MADE US ALIVE FROM spiritual death. How did God do it? Ephesians 2:4-5 but God who is rich in mercy for his great love wherewith he loved us EVEN WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN OUR SINS HAS QUICKENED US TOGETHER WITH CHRIST (BY GRACE ARE YOU SAVED THROUGH FAITH) NOTICE he made ud alive with Christ . was it physical no because physically the body is still mortal but spiritually.also physically Jesus resurrected alone. Christ died spiritually that was why he could save us from spiritual death. when jesus died spiritually it was now possible for God to make us alive from spiritual death with him . God made us alive TOGETHER with Christ. How could this be if Christ never died spiritually. He was righteous but he took our place so that could be possible to have his place. see the redemption of man was legal . The devil wasn't cheated if the devil was cheated then God would be unjust. They were all type of Christ but WERE NOT CHRIST. The bulls were only able to ATONE I.E COVER NOT BLOT .so they were not equal in value.so they couldn't accomplish the same thing Christ sacrificed himself the word without blemish means spotless . the blood being spotless doesn't mean jesus never died spiritually. if that was so then how could God then put our sins on him and how could he be made sin because it will still affect his blood EXCEPT IF HE HIMSELF IS THE SACRIFICE. the blood was part of the sacrifice not the only sacrifice. he was the first to be raised immortal correct but the verse said FIRST BORN NOT FIRST RAISED. he was the first to be BORN OUT OF SPIRITUAL DEATH. if the FIRST BEGOTTEN IS THE SAME AS TO BE THE FIRST TO BE RAISED IMMORTAL THEN WHAT IS THE MEANING OF ONLY BEGOTTEN? The only one to be raised immortal? then you will incorrect because he called the only born before he had the immortal body. and when you say my first born is it equivalent to first to be raised with immortal body? . the wages of sin is death. ... if it was physical then adam moses paid for their sins because they died physically. I have repeated this physical death occurs because spiritual death happened. that payment is spiritual .If adam hadn't sinned will he still die? no he wouldn't die physically not because he has eternal life but because he is still connected to his source I.e God |
Re: What Does The Bible Mean By 'death' According To Gen 2vs17, 3vs4 And Rom 5vs14 by MrPresident1: 2:21pm On Jan 27, 2015 |
It is spiritual death, and they remain dead till today, mentally dead. They are in the grave waiting for the voice of the son of God that will wake them up. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 1 Like |
Re: What Does The Bible Mean By 'death' According To Gen 2vs17, 3vs4 And Rom 5vs14 by Nobody: 5:42am On Jan 29, 2015 |
oprajo: The scripture you quoted at Ephesian all talks about spiritual death. I have quoted that scripture to support that point too. So I don't know how you imported it again when I myself used it. He was righteous but he took our place so that could be possible to have his place. see the redemption of man was legal . The devil wasn't cheated if the devil was cheated then God would be unjust. He took our place does not mean he became spiritually death. It means he died for us. He is not suppose to die because he was a righteous man. But to redeem us from Adamic sin, he has to present himself to die. The word atonement conveys the sense of equality. The scriptures says that Jesus gave a corresponding ransom. The ransom cannot correspond to what Adam lost if he was separated from God. Do you think any of us could pay for what Adam lost. No, only a perfect person was required. And Jesus was perfect. If an imperfect person comes, he cannot provide a corresponding cover for Adamic sin. It is true that the blood of bulls cannot blot out sin, but there blood covered it temporarily and was a type of christ. The question is, and please don't dodge it again, did the bulls die spiritually before it was presented in the Most Holy? This was a type for Christ. Do not excuse it because it presented a temporary cover. A type is a type. Please stop stop spewing twoddle, if not I will just live you with your error. The scriptures say that Jesus offered himself without blemish/spot and you are here saying he was spiritually dead. Someone who has died spiritually has spot, and he has no relationship with God. That blood can never approach the heavenly Most Holy. It is corrupt and can never be accepted by God. 1Peter 3:18 is adding to the point too. Peter was stating that we should be happy when we suffer as righteous persons. He said that it is good that way than when we suffer as sinners. He added to it by saying that Christ himself passed through such ordeal, dying as a righteous person, even though he was righteous. And you want to twist that too. Please stop. he was the first to be raised immortal correct but the verse said FIRST BORN NOT FIRST RAISED. he was the first to be BORN OUT OF SPIRITUAL DEATH. if the FIRST BEGOTTEN IS THE SAME AS TO BE THE FIRST TO BE RAISED IMMORTAL THEN WHAT IS THE MEANING OF ONLY BEGOTTEN? The only one to be raised immortal? It is not first born ONLY, but first born from the dead. He was the first to be raised immortal. Dead is attached to the first born. Just like first born from a family is the first to be born there, first born from the dead is the first to come out from there. Only born/begotten from the dead should be the only one raised immortal from the dead. But the scriptures never said "only born from the dead". 2. I am not talking about only born. Where are you getting this? 3. Yes, the wages of sin is death. When we die we pay for our sins inherited from Adam. In short the wages for that sin is eternal death while the gift Christ gives is eternal life. We all die because of Adamic sin but we will be made alive through Christ. That was Paul's argument at 1Cor 15:22 4. If Adam die because he was not connected to his creator, why did Paul die? Was he not connected to his creator? 5. I have asked, at what point did Christ die spiritually? And on what basis could God resurrect Christ since he is not connected to Him again? You ve not answered that first question. 6. I said also, on what basis is God resurrecting the dead, when the gift Christ gives is not physical life according to the logic of Rom 6:23? 7. Please do you believe in the resurrection of the physically dead? |
Re: What Does The Bible Mean By 'death' According To Gen 2vs17, 3vs4 And Rom 5vs14 by Nobody: 7:19am On Jan 29, 2015 |
oprajo: Oh my goodness! do you even read my comment before responding? I gave you those verses to show that God can view "day" to be of different durations. You were insisting on 24hr day and a gave that to clear you a little. I only gave you Gen 2:4, you have brought other portions which will confuse you the more. And now, you missed the point. You didnt even quote verse 4 where you were rushing. Gen 2:4: "This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven" After the creation that took place in the verses and chapter previously which lasted for more than 5 days, this gen 2:4, said that all those things happened in a "day". How many hours is that "day"? Hebrews 4:4 The way KJV rendered that Gen 2:2 is wrong. They said "rested". That is wrong. The Hebrew verb that occurred there is waiyishboth. This verb is an imperfect verb which denotes an incomplete action. It should be translated "began to rest". God's rest didnt end that literal 24-hr day. God's 7th day of rest took even more than a 1000 years in length. Paul added to that truth in Heb. 4:4, 5, but again you were in a rush that you quoted only verse 4. Read my comments very well dear. Paul, in verse 3 showed that God's creative work were completed long time ego, yet he made a statement, "they shall not enter into my rest", which shows that God's rest was still on till the days of David and even Paul. So God began to rest after the creation, but His rest has not ended. In all this long time, it is still 7th day not days. 1 corinthians 15 vs 55- 56 Owning death does not mean you won't die, does it? 2. If you atleast believe that all saints have never been raised, and that all governments have never been brought to nothing, then death has never been brought to nothing according to that context. Do you believe that? 1cor. 15:54, 55 "But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up forever". [size=15]Death where is your victory"?[/size] Answer: a. When will the saying above take place? b. What lead to the shout "death where is your victory"? [see preceding phrase] c. So, when does the defeat totally take place? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Try and break the quotation before you post a comment. If you want to qyote by comments one by one. Do this at the beginning eg [quote]. at the end of the sentence you want to quote, do this [/quote.]. Pls dont include the dot inside the last bracket. Lets say you want to quote and respond to my last comments. You do it thus: [quote]a. when will the saying above take place?[/quote.] - exclude the dot inside. [quote]c. so when does the defeat totally take place?[/quote.] - exclude the dot inside. I added the dot inside so that it does not quote it. You can do the same for bold. Just start with [.b] and end with [/.b]. For italics, start with [i.] and end with [/.i] excluding the dot inside. Do not give space at the end of the sentence you want to quote. If you want to know how others are done like coloring, size increase etc. just quote the comment of someone who did what you want to do, you will see the editing that went forth before he clicked submit. Let me give you example: Let your kingdom came, let your will take [size=15]place[/size] Now, to see what I did before all that happened, immediately you click on quote botton, you will see all the "construction" that took place. But if you have a laptop, this will be simpler. Try it. |
Re: What Does The Bible Mean By 'death' According To Gen 2vs17, 3vs4 And Rom 5vs14 by Nobody: 7:44am On Jan 29, 2015 |
MrPresident1: The verse you quoted talks about those who are dead spiritually, but those who are physically dead will be raised in the future. See verse 28, 29. Paul acknowledged that uncleanness or sin lead to death. Rom 6:21, he now stated the formular, that the wages of sin is death verse 23, but the gift of christ is everlasting life. If the wages is spiritual death, then the gift of life is spiritual life, not physical life. It then means that those who die will not be raised from the dead, because that is not part of Christ's gift. That is, for the logic to be consistent. |
Re: What Does The Bible Mean By 'death' According To Gen 2vs17, 3vs4 And Rom 5vs14 by MrPresident1: 2:09pm On Jan 29, 2015 |
JMAN05: You are not quite right. That verse is talking about the spiritually dead, and Paul takes his Precepts from; Ezekiel 31:15 Thus saith the Lord God; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him. The resurrection is for the spiritually dead, the mentally dead, not the physically dead Isaiah 29:14. The physical dead remain dead until they reincarnate again. There is such a thing as reincarnation. But for the spiritually dead, there will be a spiritual reawakening, also called the resurrection, the resurrection of the Negros, the original Israelites of the Bible, also allegorically called Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve are sleeping in the dust of the earth, holed up in graves, mentally and spiritually dead. Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. |
Re: What Does The Bible Mean By 'death' According To Gen 2vs17, 3vs4 And Rom 5vs14 by Nobody: 2:39pm On Jan 30, 2015 |
MrPresident1: Your case deserve a full thread discuss. There are some issues in your comment that deserves treatment. That will be another thread not here. |
Re: What Does The Bible Mean By 'death' According To Gen 2vs17, 3vs4 And Rom 5vs14 by Hiswordxray(m): 9:29pm On Jan 30, 2015 |
DEagle1:For us to understand this we need to know that death is death and there is nothing like spiritual death (spiritually dead is a more accurate term). Death according to the Bible can be in different form. 1). Death as a kingdom: - This kingdom of the devil is the same as the kingdom of darkness which is the same with the kingdom of the word which can also be called the kingdom of death. In this kingdom all the citizens are spiritually dead. Therefore when Jesus said we pass from life to death it is the same as what Paul said that we are translated from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of the son of God (Col 1:13). 2). Death as a law: - The kingdom of death is ruled by the law of death. Paul described this law when he said "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." (Rom 7:23). Paul is saying the law of death is operating in him and warring against the law of is mind (which is his will ) and bringing him to always obey the law of sin which is inside him. Paul was describing when he was still spiritually dead. 3). Death as fruit: - When we adhere to sin we produce sin onto death. Paul mentioned this in Rom 7:5 "For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit onto death." We know the fruit of the spirit is then the fruit of death would be murder, adultery, lies etc. Whether we are believers or not we could produce fruit onto death when we think and heart carnally. 4). Death as a spirit: - We know the spirit death will be thrown into hell because the bible says "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Rev 20:14). 5). Death as Hell: - The book of Revelation tell us that Hell can also be call second death " 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Rev 20:14). 6). Death as Being Inactive:- The spirit is never dead in this sense but the body can become inactive when the vital organs are not functioning. This is when life leaves the body. Now life cannot leave the spirit because the breath of life was breathed into the body not the spirit. But a spirit is said to be dead when it is living in the kingdom of death or it is in hell (second death). Anytime the word death is mentioned in the Bible it could be in any of the form listed above based on the context. |
Re: What Does The Bible Mean By 'death' According To Gen 2vs17, 3vs4 And Rom 5vs14 by oprajo(m): 5:54pm On Feb 05, 2015 |
JMAN05: |
Re: What Does The Bible Mean By 'death' According To Gen 2vs17, 3vs4 And Rom 5vs14 by oprajo(m): 5:56pm On Feb 05, 2015 |
JMAN05: |
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