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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! (6637 Views)
Those Attacking Me Now Kept Quiet When El-rufai Tweeted Hate Speech - Suleiman / Check Out This Picture Of A Pastor Praying For A Woman In Church. SCREENSHOT. / TRUTH: Did Paul Say Women Should Remain Quiet In Church?? (2) (3) (4)
Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by Nobody: 8:08pm On Jan 15, 2015 |
For many centuries women have not been allowed to lead or to teach in churches based in part upon what God supposedly stated in 1 Corinthians 14:34 and 35. "How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" - Jeremiah 8:8 |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by mcfynest(m): 8:51pm On Jan 15, 2015 |
Women are to keep quiet in church excrpt when permmitted to talk by their husbands and singles should nt talk unless the overseer instructs them to, this will bring orderliness, that is why it is advisable for women to be children sunday school teachers |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by Nobody: 8:57pm On Jan 15, 2015 |
mcfynest: A Man made law from an ancient era when Men where in control of everything. It is not a scriptural injunction. |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by mcfynest(m): 9:04pm On Jan 15, 2015 |
frosbel: But it is found in the holy books? |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by esere826: 1:35pm On Jan 28, 2015 |
Hi frosbel Nice question, I also read the link you provided. This is my opinion: It is very possible that Paul did say that women should not speak in church. Unlike what the article in the link says, the text does flow perfectly. It talks about confusion and disorder and tries to manage this by limiting the amount of outspoken voices in a congregation. If my assumption is correct, then the challenge would be to answer this question: "was what Paul said the word of God?" For those that hold literarily tight to the bible. Their answer would be "yes, afterall, all scriptures are God-breathed" For those that allow some loose ends, Pauls conclusion to his statement would make them have no choice than to agree that it was the word of God. For paul says: "If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment." Some will just form ignoring and skip that chapter about women silence in church. I on my part think that Paul was not correct if indeed he said both. In my opinion (still assuming he said both) he was either 1) giving a command from God which God meant for that time or 2) making reference to earlier Jewish traditions (considered as God's commandment) of male -female separation in synangogue activities or 3) he was mis-representing God Now, I'll push further. If it was (3), then I will still be able to understand and empathise with him. In our modern day, we have folks who are close to God, or who like to think that they are closer to God than others. What I have observed is that these folks do a lot of mis representation of God. They say what God says, and add theirs and then sum up everything as coming from God But why would they mis-represent God? It is understandable. I doubt that many times we who call ourselves Christians have actually heard God speak in plain human-like language my experience is that he tends to speak in inprints when you receive that imprint you then try to translate it into language in translating it, you use your words which are many times coloured by your personality, and values in fact ( and typical of any oral transfer of information) the time gap between the imprint and when you say it can give enough room for the story to blossom beyond what was originally said except you write it down immediately Despite this flaw in the communication process, what you end up saying does carry the nucleus of the initial message although the peripherals might have been distorted For example, I suspect that the message of tithing, first fruits etc have been seriously distorted. however the nucleus of it still remains the same which is: That we should make finance available for the Church to spend in achieving the goals of Christ Still on the matter of Paul, my conclusion is that if indeed it was number (3) that happened it did not shift from the original message/command which was that: ....there should be some order in church. |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by BabaGnoni: 11:13pm On Jan 28, 2015 |
frosbel: esere826:The original post I read the first time round and decided until now, there and then not to dignify it with a comment Also since the OP was DOA, I wondered why anyone would bother to read the link provided but then esere826 resurrected the thread, which led to visiting the link filled with curiosity, after reading esere826's comment. No surprises, the web link turned out to be leading people down a rabbit trail with uninformed point of view(s), as earlier suspected it would. Paul wrote those verses alright, no doubt about that Thus did he write them and writing them that way did he write them out with the semi-colon(s) signifying the interrogative question mark(s) When those verses are read slowly but loudly, the note of sarcasm in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 can be detected or spotted When those verses are read slowly but loudly, one could easily & faintly discern that Paul was mocking their remarks (i.e. the Corinthians) Paul when replying back in his letter, was repeating their remarks, as read in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, and repeated sneeringly he did Sorry, mind the language, Paul was like: "What the *$&#, you mean women should keep silent in the church? Like, they arent to speak? They should be submissive, just as the law say..." etcetera etcetera ![]() http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek/Alphabet#Punctuation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semicolon#Greek_and_Church_Slavonic - EXCERPT - People need to recognise or understand that Paul has a peculiar style of writing, an ensemble of connotations, balanced sentences, periodic sentence, situation and purpose etc etc 1 Corinthians 14:34 is a good verse that stirs controversy out of not understanding Paul's style of writing https://www.nairaland.com/1834549/falsehoods-paul/2#25142598 - /EXCERPT - PS: frosbel dont be getting ideas from the link in the above excerpt ooo ![]() ![]() Copyists messed things up alright but not the way the writer on that site is suggesting (i.e. suggesting they added texts to Paul's letter) Copyists didnt add, doctor or insert into Paul's letter, rather it was punctuation dilemmas translators/copyists had to contend with Click here for an idea: http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/punctuation.htm It is bad pedagogy to sit or park at 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 alone when the clincher actually is a verse or two away, in 1 Corinthians 14:36-38 The import of Paul's message in that letter to the Corinthians is clear in 1 Corinthians 14:36-38 What the writer on that weblink should have scholarly concerntrated on, is the phenomenon called: "The Greek question mark or semicolon puzzle" |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by esere826: 1:15pm On Jan 29, 2015 |
BabaGnoni Yours is another great point of view with regards to Paul speaking sarcastically and it is possible. Many times, the bible somehow does not easily capture the emotional undertones behind statements made I noticed such gaps with some of Jesus comments in the new testament which did not make sense to me previously however, when I reviewed them after giving Jesus more human emotional attributes, they began to make more sense to me. but then again BabaGnoni Frosbel is not far from your point either He concludes that ancient lying scribes made the changes while you suggest that modern unskilled scribes were not able to properly transcribe the message the meeting point is that there is possibly a misrepresentation of what Paul said in this verse |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by Nobody: 1:29pm On Jan 29, 2015 |
frosbel: Thus saith the Lord, "B#tches need to shut the F@#K up". Shalom 3 Likes |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by AlfaSeltzer(m): 3:04pm On Jan 29, 2015 |
Frosbel, I like your Gospel. |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by BabaGnoni: 9:21pm On Jan 29, 2015 |
esere826:^^^ ![]() Back in the day, when I used to watch TV, It was him above, I watched on Revelation TV, who put 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 into perspective and set me off to further research into the or to confirm the punctuation dilemma, particularly the question mark punctuation - for years, now only watch TV once in a blue moon, when on vacation or when not at home PS: FAO esere826, the two below quotes "the meeting point is that there is possibly a misrepresentation of what Paul said in this verse" - © esere826 "It is bad pedagogy to sit or park at 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 alone when the clincher actually is a verse or two away, in 1 Corinthians 14:36-38 The import of Paul's message in that letter to the Corinthians is clear in 1 Corinthians 14:36-38" - © BabaGnoni |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by BabaGnoni: 7:57am On Jan 30, 2015 |
esere826: I beg to differ sir, as I would only agree that "lying" scribes made the changes to verses like 1 John 5:7 AND NOT TO 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 Yes "unskilled" scribes were not able to properly transcribe the message 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, as the question mark in English only got invented afterward most or the early translations Tradition or ignorance let later translators, instead of inserting question marks, left the semi colon in English translations, just as it was in the original Greek text Besides, people misconstrue that 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is a teaching of Paul when the opposite is really the case PS: esere826 you sabi watch a 26 minutes long video wherever you are? |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by joseph1832(m): 9:21am On Jan 30, 2015 |
If its bad misrepresentation or the fault of the copyist or interpreter like many of you said, won't all this put the whole Bible in 'skepticism'. I mean why misinterpret one verse when you can misinterpret the whole Bible?. 1 Like |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by esere826: 11:11am On Jan 30, 2015 |
BabaGnoni:I should be able to |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by Nobody: 11:14am On Jan 30, 2015 |
mcfynest: Nothing holy about those books. |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by Nobody: 11:18am On Jan 30, 2015 |
frosbel: This is one of those bible passages that made me doubt christianity. I cannot see shutting down women to be a good act. It is anti-freedom of speech and expression. A pastor could justify that by shooting women who speak in the church right? Let's remember the islamic terrorists, this is what they stand for. A civil society don't need laws like this,nor should we pay attention to those who wrote them. 1 Like |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by esere826: 11:39am On Jan 30, 2015 |
joseph1832: I'll assume that this is not a rhetorical question, where the purpose is to pose a thought but does not require an answer So I'll rephrase your question again so that we can elicit an answer: Q) Won't our suggestions of mis-respresentation in one or two verses imply that the entire bible should be viewed with suspicion? A) On my own part, I think there are at least two sets of people when it comes to study. -The first set accepts anything that comes to them and build their knowledge base within this. -The 2nd set challenge assumptions, and look out for gaps. The goal is not to destroy the mineral being mined, but to chip at the rough edges and dirt until the diamond within glitters really good. As the 2nd set of studiers improve a body of knowledge, they pass it on to the 1st set who finally accept it as the defacto guide book. Every season, every age, scholars are busy working on the bible which they present in the form of versions such as NIV, KJV etc We are thus 2 different sets of people. The first which are in majority don't bother themselves with suspicions The 2nd which are a small minority are curious and suspicious of many things and seek to find answers. Some end up becoming atheists, others become a different breed of Christians from the mainstream. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by TV01(m): 11:45am On Jan 30, 2015 |
frosbel: Frosbel hi, So you are growing in understanding, recieving revelation perhaps. But it would help if you fully digested and articualted before you rushed to proclaim. What is your point here? Do women keep quiet in church - anywhere? Or are you questioning the role paradigm practiced in some churches? If indeed you are challenging notions of authority, and of the difference in roles between men and women - in home, church and society - simply say so. And don't just beg the question, show by a clear articulation of scripture what should actually be the case. Lots of assertions about things being added, omitted or mis-transcribed, merely questions the integrity of the bible itself, not just individual doctrines or positions. It's this kind of re-interpretation, redaction and innovative textual interpretaion that allows some to claim even homosexuality is a blessing as opposed to a disorder. And it's worth noting that to get to the point of "christianising homosexuality", what the bible said about male/female roles had to be recast first - we'll see where you end up with this. I'd really like to hear your outline what is right - especially in this instance - as opposed to merely shouting we've got it wrong. So for example, are men and women supposed to have the same/equal/interchangeable roles in the home or church? TV |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by TV01(m): 11:59am On Jan 30, 2015 |
esere826: And perhaps a third, who find a stoneel that is seemingly perfect, then spot some apparent imperfections. They then focus on these imperfections to the exclusion of all else, eventually discarding it as flawed. Or to put it another way, if your top of the range performance car is scratched, or painted a gaudy colour or unduly customised, it remains a top of the range performance car. esere826:Maybe the third as I've described are the atheists as you've put it. But they are not seeking to polish the diamond, merely discard it as worthless. TV |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by mmsen: 12:52pm On Jan 30, 2015 |
So the Bible is not the unerring word of god? Because the Bible is very consistent when it comes to the standing of women: Genesis 3:16 - "A woman shall be ruled by her husband" Exodus 21:7 - "Women can be sold" 1 Cor. 11:7 -"For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man." And let us not forget this prize verse: 1 Cor, 7:1 - "It is good for man to have nothing to do with a woman" Famous theologians such as Martin Luther subscribed to the notion that women were inferior, writing - "boys are good crops, girls are weeds". AND "If women become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth, that is why they are there." This is the nature of xtianity, like it or not. |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by BabaGnoni: 5:19pm On Jan 30, 2015 |
esere826:^^^ I asked because I know you once relocated and wasn't sure where exactly you are right now I will provide a video which after watching it, I'll like to know what you thought of it I will also provide a transcript of the video but to be honest reading the transcript without actually watching the video, wouldn't give the information provided in the video any justice at all, as one can't read from the transcript, as demonstrated in the video, the tones Paul allegedly used when he wrote the letter to the set of "aggrieved" Corinthians Anyways, watch out for the video & transcript, as I am still on the road, driving. I will post both as soon as I am back indoors |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by esere826: 7:18pm On Jan 30, 2015 |
BabaGnoni:yeah, i'm back to an internet friendly zone ooo I will provide a video which after watching it, I'll like to know what you thought of itThanks |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by johnydon22(m): 7:25pm On Jan 30, 2015 |
Alright now most of you all are blaming paul, i thought ALL scriptures are breathed word of god...Or is it that you choose when its convenient enough for you to claim god did it or blame the writer.. "Common christians decide already" |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by BabaGnoni: 8:33pm On Jan 30, 2015 |
mmsen:... grabbing at straws |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by BabaGnoni: 8:52pm On Jan 30, 2015 |
johnydon22:You must have been reading a different thread, if not, then you definitely are making things up No one has blamed Paul on this thread except possibly OP As a matter of fact, Paul is innocent and acquitted of any libel and/or charge put to him johnydon22:I am not sure which bible you read "scriptures" ending with a "s" For the record, ALL scripture are breathed word of God, translations from the original Hebrew & Greek text, adding chapters or verses to them, are not breathed word of God Also johnydon22, mind you, there is: the written law (i.e. Scripture or Torah) the oral law (i.e. Talmud or oral Torah) the Bible (i.e. 66 books made up of: Scripture - Torah, the Hebrew Bible or Jewish canon - Tanakh, letters etcetera) johnydon22:Don't have a clue what you're going on about there |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by mmsen: 10:16pm On Jan 30, 2015 |
BabaGnoni: Those are very clear and concise quotes lifted straight from the Bible or the writings of one of the best respected Protestant theologians. |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by BabaGnoni: 6:58am On Jan 31, 2015 |
mmsen:Still grabbing at more straws... I laughed myself silly reading your first and did same more with your second above Your "very clear and concise quotes lifted straight from the Bible" (i.e. Genesis 3:16, Exodus 21:7 and 1 Cor. 11:7) and especially your "prize verse" (i.e. 1 Cor. 7:1) are all taken and presented here out of context Allowing oneself to enjoy the pleasure of some serious study would have uncovered the deeper meaning and significance of details in Genesis 3:16 or Exodus 21:7 Also, here is to responding to your "Famous theologians such as Martin Luther" or "the best respected Protestant theologians" these are typical dangers we face, when we take their ostensible writings or teachings, their unsound ideas, reasons and opinions in, as the real deal The so called "...writings of one of the best respected Protestant theologians" are meant to be read or taken with a pinch of salt and not to be unceremoniously gobbled up hook, line and sinker You would agree that the Talmud or the Hadith does not hold water, as far as the primary authority of Scripture or the Quran is concerned. Your "the writings of one of the best respected Protestant theologians" is actually akin to the Talmud or the muslim's Hadith. Well, as a matter of fact, it actually shares the same fate as the Talmud or the Hadith (i.e. as far as the primary authority of Scripture or the Quran is concerned, their writings do not hold water) - "shine your eyes, open your eyes and see the Truth" |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by zenith4biz(m): 7:28am On Jan 31, 2015 |
For the first time on religion thread I saw reasonable presentations without any Insults. Kudos |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by BabaGnoni: 2:15pm On Jan 31, 2015 |
esere826:Coolio, no probs, I'll soon publish the video and post the transcript |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by BabaGnoni: 3:12pm On Jan 31, 2015 |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr6sMxUSD88 by Derek Walker [size=18pt]1 Corinthians 14:34-35: Should Women be Silent in Church?[/size] VIDEO'S TRANSCRIPT: One controversy concerns the role of women in church ministry. One scripture in particular seems to exclude women from any public ministry: 'Let your women keep SILENT in the churches, for it is NOT PERMITTED FOR THEM TO SPEAK; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as THE LAW also SAYS. And IF they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is SHAMEFUL FOR WOMEN TO SPEAK IN CHURCH.' (1 Corinthians 14:34,35) Some would explain this away as a special command to the unruly women at Corinth to straighten-up, rather than a general command to all women everywhere. But if we treat one scripture this way, what is to stop us treating every scripture this way? Surely the New Testament is written for the whole church. The subject of the passage is: 'THE WOMEN IN THE CHURCHES (plural)'. This means-'all women.' Moreover the command is based on 'the law' which means it applies to all, rather than just to those in a particular culture or time. Let us consider what this passage is literally saying. The word for 'silent' does not mean 'quiet' Thus it is not saying that women should have a quiet (meek) spirit. The word translated 'silent' means no word can be spoken! It is saying WOMEN MUST BE (completely) SILENT IN CHURCH. This doesn't just disqualify them from teaching but also from testifying, praying, prophesing and moving in the gifts of the Spirit-the latter being the context of these verses (1 Cor 12:1) The First Problem with this passage, is that it contradicts Paul's other teaching in this book. For he says women may pray and prophesy in church (1 Cor 11:3-5). In 1Corinthians 12, especially in v13-27 he teaches that all members of the church (men and women), are members of the body and thus have a function in the body working in co-ordination with each other, and so we can all be used in the gifts and ministries of the Spirit. So, he says: 'if ALL (men and women) prophesy' (1 Cor 14:24) 'When you come together, EVERY ONE (men and women) of you has a psalm, has a doctrine, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation.' (v26) 'You may ALL prophesy one by one.' (v31) So, why would he say 3 verses later that all women must be silent in church? Is he being doubleminded? So the first problem is that in the middle of encouraging everyone to move out in ministry, he is telling all women to be silent! This also contradicts the spirit of the New-Testament with Jesus treating women with honour, with the churches set free from all Jewish traditions (Acts15), with full equality in the church (Gal 3:28) and with the Spirit poured upon all flesh (male and female) to give power for ministry (Acts 1:8, 2:4,16-18) A Second Problem is the discouragement upon women from even learning: 'and IF THEY WANT TO LEARN.' The tone of this is condescending to women, that not only should they not speak, it is optional for them to learn the Word (it is even mildly frowned upon as if it were not really their place.) This is clearly in contradiction to the New Testament teaching for women and contrasts with what Paul said in 1Timothy 2:11: 'LET a woman learn.' Here he encourages women to study the Word. Here he speaks against those who would discourage them. A Third Problem is the AUTHORITY used: 'IT IS NOT PERMITTED FOR THEM TO SPEAK ..AS THE LAW ALSO SAYS.' Which Law is this? There are 4 possibilities: (1) The Old Testament Scripture. (The Law of Moses) It is usually referred to by 'It is written' (1 Cor 1:19,31; 3:19,20; 4:6; 9:9; 10:11, 14:21; 15:45,51) (2) The Teaching of Jesus (1 Cor 7:10). (3) The Apostolic Teaching and Tradition -that which Paul and others received by revelation from the Lord (1 Cor 7:12) Paul received special new revelations to meet the needs of a new situation (the Church Age where many Gentiles were becoming believers on an equal footing with the Jews). For example: 1 Cor 2:10-13,16; 4:1,15-17, 7:6,10,12,17,25; 11:1,2,16,17, 23; 14:36,37; 15:1,3 (4) The Oral Law of the Jews (later written as the Talmud)- the interpretation of Moses' Law by the Scribes and Pharisees. It is followed by the Orthodox Jews to this day as of equal authority to the Bible. They falsely claimed it was passed down from Moses by word of mouth. Jesus clashed with Pharisees over this law. He rejected it and came against it's legalistic spirit (Matt15:3, Mark7:3). Now when 1 Cor 14:34,35 refers to a law of silence for women, it couldn't be: (1) because there's no such law in the Old-Testament and he would say 'it is written'; neither is it found in the Gospels (2). Neither is it (3) because it is clearly a pre-existing law. Therefore by a process of elimination it must be (4) The Jewish Oral Law (the laws of the Pharisees) This is confirmed by the phrase: 'As also SAYS the Law.' - a reference to the ORAL law rather than the WRITTEN law (scripture). (see also Matt 5:21,27,31, 33,38,43) Also, we know this because it agrees completely with the Talmud and applies to Orthodox synagogues today. The service is for men only. Women are discouraged from even learning, but are sometimes allowed to watch from the gallery, for their place is at home not with things too high for them! And it would be shameful for them to speak in a meeting. TALMUDIC QUOTES illustrate this: A Jewish Prayer:'Praise God He hasn't created me a gentile, a woman or an ignorant man.' 'The woman, says the law, is in all things inferior to the man.' Only men could speak in public (Beraktoth 4,36; Mishnah Aboth 1,5) No woman could give a testimony or conduct business. (Mishnah Shabbath 4,1) Women were viewed with disregard and repression, and the Talmud contains many distasteful insults of women's character. They were to be avoided. They were not required to know or fulfil the law and so few were learned. One said: 'May the words of the Torah be burned rather than be given to women.' In public worship they were segregated and silenced and so had to ask questions of their husbands at home. Clearly the writer of 1 Cor 14:34,35 reflected this Pharisaical attitude to women and used this Jewish Law to support his views. So why would Paul say something that stands in contradiction to the immediate context and the rest of the New Testament? Why would he establish this teaching on Jewish Laws that elsewhere, both he and Jesus rejected? The simple answer is these verses are not Paul's teaching! Paul's letters are written in response church situations. 1 Corinthians is the most responsive of them all. Paul had received reports about what was going on (1:11, 5:1, 6:1,8 ), and the church had sent a letter to Paul with many questions (7:1,8,10,12,25; 8:1,4; 12:1; 16:1). There was disunity (1:10-12,3:3). In particular there were 2 groups of people saved from different backgrounds disputing -Jews who tended toward legalism, and Greeks who tended toward license. Paul goes through the issues and questions raised one by one. Examples of when Paul is clearly responding to what one group has said are 6:15-20 (Greeks); 9:1-11; 11:1-16 (Jews) and 15:12,35,36. Sometimes he refers what they are saying and then he answers them -e.g.1 Cor 4:8: 'You are already full! You are already rich! You have reigned as kings without us.' (this is what some of them had claimed) --'and indeed I wish you did reign, that we might also reign with you.' (Paul's answer - see also 4:10) Sometimes he even quotes what they say and then answers them. The problem is that there are no punctuation or quote marks in the Greek and the translators often miss them out. Some examples of this, are when he responds to the 'loose' Greeks as in 6:12,13: (You say) 'All things are lawful for me.' (I Paul) say: 'but all things are not helpful.' (You say) 'All things are lawful for me.' (I Paul) say: 'but I will not be brought under the power of any.' (You say) 'Food is for the stomach and the stomach for foods.' (I Paul) say: 'but God will destroy both it and them.' We see the same in 10:23,24. In questions about idols Paul challenges those who pride themselves in their knowledge but who do not hold it in love. (8:1-3) 8:4: 'We know that -'an idol is nothing in the world and that there is but one God' (again he quotes their words (their knowledge) before he answers as confirmed in v10,11. Other examples are when he responds to the 'legalistic Jews', 7:1: 'Now concerning what you wrote to me, (some of you said) 'It is good for a man not to touch a woman.' (But I Paul say) 'Nevertheless because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife...' Now we can understand what is happening in 1 Cor 14:34,35. Paul is quoting what some Jewish converts to Christ, had written in a letter to Paul, complaining about women being involved in church services. Although they were saved they were used to male-dominated synagogue - worship and so found the equality of women in church life hard to take. They were saying: 'Paul, these women are prophesying, praying out loud, speaking in tongues. The Oral law says it's shameful for a woman to speak in public. Tell them to shut-up!' So as Paul is teaching on every member participating in church services, it is the natural place for him to deal with their objection. So he quotes what they say: 'Let your women keep silent in the churches, for it is not permitted for them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is shameful for women to speak in church' (v34,35) Then he answers them: 'What, came the word of God out from you? or came it to you only? If any think himself a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things I write to you (not the Talmud) are the commandments of the Lord (the true authority) But if any (choose to be) be ignorant, let him be ignorant.' (v36-38) Paul replies by asserting his apostolic authority above the Talmud. This also explains why these verses come out of the blue, interrupting the flow of thought, which is picked up again in v39,40: 'Therefore brethren,covet to prophesy and do not forbid to speak with tongues.' The placement of v34,35 in the passage as a clear interruption and marked contrast to what Paul is teaching, serves to separate them from Paul's own views. We conclude that Paul isn't silencing women, rather the opposite! Those who are too quick to agree with v34,35 have unwittingly submitted to an unchristian pharisaical spirit |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by EvilBrain1(m): 3:57pm On Jan 31, 2015 |
@Frosbel Saint Paul was a misogynist. It is very clear in all his writings. He had a very low opinion of women which is why he wrote what he wrote. It is ridiculous to try and rehabilitate him by claiming that the parts of his letters you don't happen to like weren't written by him. You'll need pretty strong evidence for that and that evidence simply does not exist. While he almost certainly didn't write 1st and 2nd Timothy and he might not have written Ephesians, the 2 letters to the Corinthians are definitely his and the misogyny in them is perfectly in line with the pseudoepigraphical letters. Even when you remove all the likely forged stuff from the new testament there's still plenty of bigotry left. In fact, the forged stuff was included in the canon precisely because it was in line with the spirit of the rest of the books. The christian message is mainly one of intolerance to other religions, groups and lifestyles. And women were not spared. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1JIKOMQV5A *Edited to stop from confusing BabaGnoni 2 Likes |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by BabaGnoni: 4:04pm On Jan 31, 2015 |
EvilBrain1:You must have been reading a different thread, if not, then you definitely are making things up No one has blamed Paul on this thread except possibly OP No one said or has tried to "rehabilitate him by claiming that the parts of his letters you don't happen to like weren't written by him" As a matter of fact, now that you brought it up, Paul actually is innocent and acquitted of any libel and/or charge put to him - the 2 letters to the Corinthians are definitely his and it is absent or void of misogyny You certainly didnt watch the video above you nor read the transcript from start to end before springing out a video of your own like as if pulling a rabbit out a hat or doing a jack-in-the-box stunt |
Re: Women Should Not Keep Quiet In Church ! by EvilBrain1(m): 4:22pm On Jan 31, 2015 |
@BabaGnoni You accuse me of making things up, yet in the next breath you refer to OP who quoted this: There is good evidence that these two verses were not part of Paul’s original writing, but were added to the text by scribes or copyists. It is never desirable to change Christian practice by omitting a verse of the Bible. Nevertheless, it is honest to recognize that occasionally the biblical text was changed, and in this case there are a number of pieces of evidence that certainly seem to warrant removing these verses that say women should be silent in the church. Before we examine those, however, it must be admitted that if these verses are an addition to the Greek text, it would have been an early addition, because the verses appear in the Greek manuscripts of 1 Corinthians.Then wrote this: frosbel:Do you have a short term memory problem? You should really get that looked at. *Edit: I'll modify my last post so that it's clear that I was replying to OP if you like. Hopefully, that should make it stop confusing you. Also, if Paul wrote Corinthians, then he was a misogynist by definition. Words have meanings which are not subject to your personal opinion. 1 Like |
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