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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? (8939 Views)
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Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by tonybosses: 2:19pm On Dec 18, 2014 |
Ubenedictus: Go to ur bible and chk out d fruit of the spirit...lol And also thhere isn't anytn like co-redeemer anywher in my bible...hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha Me? Misinformed? Can the holy spirit lie? I read my bible and get fresh revelation my friend I don't read bulletin, and follow man made dogma...thank u. Also I would be very greatful if u cn clearly point out me where it Wass stated dt mary is a co redeemer.. If being a co redeemer is by participation whhat about Joseph dt play d "earthly" father? Wt about john the baptist? Wt abt the owner of the menger and the women that probably helped mary wen she was in labour?......hhahahahahahahahahahah You go and confesss to ur priest when u sin on Saturdays, what about when your priest sins... what about when ur pope sins..who does he confess to?? I have a million unbiblical practise that I can point out to u.. but ur surname isn't catholic church so I wuldnt, unless u tell me u re capable |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by btoks: 2:52am On Dec 19, 2014 |
tonybosses:I'll like to point out that popes and Priests are sinners like you and I.They confess to other priests regularly. Jesus bestowed the holy order gifts regardless of the priests personal sins, you only need to look back at Peter. It'll good if you raise these so called unbiblical practises . you'll find that all your misconceptions have been addressed on this site or elsewhere. BTW, Mary as co redeemer is not officially defined as dogma in the church,however @Ubenedictus has explained its use. |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by tonybosses: 7:25am On Dec 19, 2014 |
btoks: Ok sir... who do ur pope confess to? oh you trying to tell me now that until the church or vatican proclaims mary as a co redeemer she isn't or they haven't decided yet ![]() According to ur definition who is a saint? Mind u... I need biblical backing. And also no where in d bible or in history or any text has it been clearly stated that peter is the first pope ( apart from those written in and by the catholic order) Also do u bliv that on the last day, our deciding fate as to Weda we wuld Mk heaven or nt isn't in anyway tied to praying the rosary or bow nd kneeling at grotto or kissing her statue? |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Ubenedictus(m): 8:31pm On Dec 27, 2014 |
First i hope you are aware that you are deviating the thread. tonybosses: hehehe, i know d gifts of d holyspirit off hand i dont need to go get my bible. Since you somehow seem to be unaware of scriptures that show that we co operate with God. So i'll give you an assignment, get ur bible and search where s paul says we are coworkers with God. |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by tonybosses: 8:52am On Dec 29, 2014 |
Ubenedictus: Lol... I already do.....sir |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Nobody: 12:13pm On Feb 13, 2015 |
You can jump in and out of churches,nobody cares! tonybosses: |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Nobody: 3:26pm On Feb 13, 2015 |
Ubenedictus:Good afternoon. My understanding of the Protestant reluctance to fully embrace the Incarnation (this includes Mary being Mother of God) stems from one of their biggest heresies-iconoclasm. God by becoming Man became a visible image. The defence of images(icons, statues) is a defence of the incarnation. Interestingly the iconoclastic heresy emerges in the Byzantine Church in the 8th century as a result of the Islamic incursions on the Eastern Church. I'm sure we all know the iconoclasm of Islam. Thank God this dangerous heresy was defeated at the Ecumenical Council Nicaea II. Amen |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Nobody: 3:33pm On Feb 13, 2015 |
tonybosses:Abou the co-redeemer issue...are you aware that St Paul calls himself co-redeemer 1 Corinthians 3:9? Can you please condemn St Paul? And are you aware that the Latin prefix Co does not mean equal? |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Nobody: 5:26pm On Feb 13, 2015 |
@uben, I am getting to this thread late. But I am willing to be a participant. From the little I can gather, u seem to be saying dt if we do not acknowledge Mary we cannot be saved, right? Now let us look critically at this matter. Mary carried Jesus (who himself is God) and bore him, yet Jesus declared dt no man (or person) or person born of a woman was greater than John d baptist (Mary inclusive). Jesus continually refused to venerate her evn when ppl (obviously like u) did, instead he kept directing such honour to those who obeyed God. Another point is dt since we now have the Holy Spirit (who himself os God) does every spirit filled child of God deserve the same unconditional veneration dt the catholic church accords Mary (to extent of bowing to idols in her image)? 3 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Nobody: 10:24pm On Feb 13, 2015 |
Papist:And all of us dt Christ dwells in become what? Do u want to extend the topic to d defence of icons and bowing down to statues? |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Nobody: 5:59am On Feb 14, 2015 |
Bobbysworld28:Yes the defence of icons and *bowing to statues* is closely linked to a good understanding of the incarnation which sadly you as a Protestant does not have. Your heresy (iconoclasm) was defeated at Nicaea II about 700 years before Protestantism. This heresy which you ignorantly embrace came from the founder of Islam Muhammad!!! Go to the Roman catacombs or google them and be astounded that iconoclasm is a modern heresy. Religious art has a long history from the very beginnings of Christianity. |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Nobody: 7:58am On Feb 14, 2015 |
Papist:If refusing to use images is a modern 'heresy', I wonder y Jesus never did it, his apostles never used it and none of them ever instructed u to. Guess y? It is out of place with the new covenant Jesus brought. We are CHRISTIANS and dt means Christ is the author and finisher of our faith (not a set of men teleguided to endorse idolatry at whatever time in history). Even 1John 5:21 commands you to keep urself from idols. So y exactly will dt endorsement matter to me? U hv been instructed! 1 Like |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Ubenedictus(m): 2:28pm On Feb 15, 2015 |
Papist: my dear friend i believe iconoclasm plays a part, but i think it isn't all. They seem to be scared of identifyin with the humanity of Christ, they are scared of him havin a mother. They do not believe in a cooperation of man and the divine. |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Ubenedictus(m): 2:46pm On Feb 15, 2015 |
Bobbysworld28: interestinly this is for now besides the point. The point is that if you do not believe that Jesus Christ came as man to die for us, and to do so was born of a woman thus he had a mother then ur faith is worthless. If Jesus had no mother then he couldn't die for you, only humans die! If Jesus has no mother then he didn't have a fully human body, didn't die nor resurrect. The first basis for salvation is the the Word was made flesh and born of a woman. If your Jesus wasn't born of a woman, he has no human body, he thus can't save you. A person who denies the incarnation of Jesus make the redemption of Christ worthless. That is the point! 1 Like |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Ubenedictus(m): 2:54pm On Feb 15, 2015 |
Bobbysworld28: make no mistake, Jesus used images, the temple where he was circumcise and where he worshipped had images, the temple where the apostles worshiped even after penticost had images in it. They all used religious images and the christian after them continued the practice when Christian started the have place of worship. The bible say keep away from idols, it didn't say keep away from all images. Note the difference. |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Nobody: 3:05pm On Feb 15, 2015 |
Ubenedictus:Wow! Ur point is upside down. It must be a figment of ur active imagination. Every Christian believes Jesus came as a man (i.e. Born of a woman). Where u guys get it wrong is dt u make an idol out of her. Hence my question, since we now carry the Holy Spirit in us (as Mary carried Jesus), will now venerate spirit filled children of God? Or is the Holy Spirit no longer God? 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Nobody: 3:13pm On Feb 15, 2015 |
Ubenedictus:SEE THIS GUY!!!! So the temple where Jesus was baptised had images, therefore Jesus used images! I really used to think u were smarter than this o. I hope u know dt an image is just an image until u idolise it, hence d admonition. This shows u dt some ppl were trying to smuggle falsehood into christianity. So whenever u want to pray and instead of addressing your prayer to God, u address Mary, an image of Mary, an angel, an image of Jesus and any other image have u succeeded in idolising that image? Yes, u have! Fyi, anything dt takes the place of God in ur life is an idol unto u, so I admonish u once again to keep away from idols. Like Jesus said, the Father seeketh those who would worship Him (not anyone or anything else) in spirit and in truth 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Nobody: 3:21pm On Feb 15, 2015 |
Ubenedictus: For example, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. Man commits idolatry whenever he honours and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods, or demons (for example satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money etc." http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Ubenedictus(m): 3:38pm On Feb 15, 2015 |
Bobbysworld28: the first issue i raised was the assertion raised by some brethren here on nl who claimed The Divine had no mother, you can read d op again. I hope you are aware that d word "venerate" simply means profound respect?. First no catholic believe mary is an idol! And i venerate ie have profound respect for all Christians who are truly temples of the holy spirit. |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Nobody: 4:24pm On Feb 15, 2015 |
Ubenedictus:I am not a party to those saying Jesus had no mother. Deep respect is good but praying to her? Bros, the catholic own is beyond respect, it is pure and unadulterated idolatry ( kindly see the definition of idolatry in my previous post). When ppl asked Jesus to teach them how to pray he started by 'Our Father, who art in heaven....'. Jesus never deviated from this line, always addressing his prayer to God the Father. His disciples continued in like manner and passed the model of address prayer to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.... But wht do we have now? The Catholic church has prayers to Mary, dead people and inanimate objects. And u dont agree that this is textbook idolatry? Mary gave birth to Jesus, no dispute but our fellowship is with the Father and with the Son by the Holy Spirit and not with Mary. Therefore the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship (communion, communication, partnership) of the Holy Spirit be with u forever. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Ubenedictus(m): 8:44pm On Feb 15, 2015 |
Bobbysworld28: my dear friend, this is a new year, and frankly i do not have the strength for a cheap insult contest, i had a lot of arguement with insults throwers last year, i do not have the stomach for it this year. You are the only person who claim not to know that all Jews including Jesus worship in the temple which had images. I am a clown, thanks for the title. I wish you a goodnite. |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Nobody: 8:52pm On Feb 15, 2015 |
Ubenedictus:Sorry for the insult! Modified! Pls continue, ok? |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Ubenedictus(m): 12:51am On Feb 17, 2015 |
Bobbysworld28: sorry my dear, i do not worship images of mary or the angels or saints. As you just said a statue is just a statue until u make it an idol i.e giving it the worship due to the divine. And yes the image of an angel, a cherubim to be precise was on the ark, the image was treated with respect, God never said treating an image with respect is a sin, infact all Isrealite who prayed in the temple prayed before the imaGe of an angel. I don't pray to a statue of mary or micheal or angels, like the isrealites i only pray in front of a statue, i hope you can note the big difference, a statue doesn't hear prayers so i don't pray to statues. Asking for prayer, i.e intercession doesn't distract from the worship of God, i hope you know that. And the bolded is in a disrespectful tone, one i'll rather avoid and one i hope i won't be hearing again. 2 Likes |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Ubenedictus(m): 1:09am On Feb 17, 2015 |
Bobbysworld28: If you had manage to read the Catechism futher you would have found where it talks about images, but it seems you didn't read futher. And dear, I as a catholic believe that whenever one honours or reveres any creature in place of the creator then he commits idolatry. That is why from the get go all catholics are taught never to replace God with anything, never to give the honour due to God (i.e Adoration) to any creature, whether a human being, an animal, an angel, a saint or any statue. I just finished teaching a bunch of kids that the honour for God should never be given to a creature and surprisinG you are accusing of the very thing i condemned. I consider such accusation unfair an misinformed. |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Ubenedictus(m): 1:43am On Feb 17, 2015 |
Bobbysworld28: then the thread is not directed to you. Deep respect is good but praying to her? Bros, the catholic own is beyond respect, it is pure and unadulterated idolatry ( kindly see the definition of idolatry in my previous post). sorry my dear friend, the definition given never said asking people for prayers meant idolatry. Do you worship your brethren when you ask from intercession? Askin for mary's prayers is not idolatry. Idolatry would have been if we gave mary the honour due to God, (adoration). Stick to the definition, it never said askin for prayers was idolatry. When ppl asked Jesus to teach them how to pray he started by 'Our Father, who art in heaven....'. Jesus never deviated from this line, always addressing his prayer to God the Father. His disciples continued in like manner and passed the model of address prayer to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ....Just for the sake of political correctednes I'll like to point out prayer may also be directed to Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. It is from Jesus and the apostles that we learn that it is christian charity to pray for one another and that it isn't a shame to to ask for prayers. And lastly catholics do not and are forbidden to pray to inanimate object. Askin for prayers my dear is not idolatry, check the definition again. Mary gave birth to Jesus, no dispute but our fellowship is with the Father and with the Son by the Holy Spirit and not with Mary. i remember i had this discussion with you some months back. I remember i quoted a passage from the book of hebrew which says we are on mount Zion in Gods feast, with anGels and saints and with Christ Jesus, so my dear friend, i wish to repeat what i said then, we not only have communion with the father, son and spirit, but also thru them we have communion with all who belive in Christ Jesus, both angels and saints. Its not my fault if you don't accept that part of scripture. 2 Likes |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Nobody: 7:09am On Feb 17, 2015 |
Ubenedictus:I know u r very smart, but these arguments amaze me sha. Maybe it is a point of view thing. jhn16.23-24.kjv And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. The verse above depicts a coming difference at the time when Jesus was telling his disciples dt he was about to go and dt the Holy Spirit would come. He explained that prior to that point they could ask nothing in his name, but dt was about to change when he left. No wonder he said boldly dt he was the way, the truth and d life. No one can come to the Father except through him. I ask you: having come to the Father and established a relationship with Him, y would I need to tell Mary (I insist it is praying to Mary) to pray to God for u? R u insisting dt the way Jesus made for us is faulty? You use the ark of covenant as an example, r u forgetting dt they were under the old covenant? The glory of God was on d ark in the temple then, but in this new covenant the Holy Spirit (whom the ark intended to portay) is in a new temple (your body). How then can u justify bowing down or praying before an inanimate object, when u have direct access to God? Y sell urself short? Show me one statue Jesus prayed in front of, or even his disciples. Just show me one. God seeks those who will worship him is spirit and in truth. Praying in front of a statue, while addressing the statue is taking God's severance and giving to an inanimate thing. It is rather unfortunate and distasteful. Nb: u guys pray to the holy sacrament which is an inanimate object 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Nobody: 7:32am On Feb 17, 2015 |
Ubenedictus:heb12.22-24.kjv But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. I am yet to see how the scripture above means that u can ask dead saints (there are living saints, sha) to pray for u o! U are inventing a concept alien to the scripture above. The verses above are describing all those in the assembly of the general assembly (including u and i). Which means Mary is there, Paul is there, u r there, I am there, angels and even Jesus. Since u r in d general assembly, y do u now ask a statue of Mary to talk to God for u? A statue!!! An immovable object! Created by man, haba! U hv agreed to belittle ur calling and truncate the direct access u have with the Father. eph3.17-21.kjv That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. The correct knowledge of the love of Christ will make u to be filled with the fulness of God. Dt way, u wont need Mary in ur prayer to God because he has filled u to the brim. Dts y he can do more than u ask according to his power that works in u. |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Nobody: 8:00am On Feb 17, 2015 |
Bobbysworld28:Where is it written in the Bible that Christ and His Apostles never used images? |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Nobody: 8:03am On Feb 17, 2015 |
Papist:Where is it written that they did? The burden of proof is on u, not me |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Nobody: 8:05am On Feb 17, 2015 |
Ubenedictus:My brother i dont disagree with you. But I strongly believe that the rejection by modern protestants of the Mother of God is closely connected to iconoclasm and rejection of Liturgical Worship. |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Nobody: 8:11am On Feb 17, 2015 |
Bobbysworld28:So you were told that images in Catholic Churches, monasteries and shrines are honoured in place of God? |
Re: Dear Protestants, How Then Were You Saved??? by Nobody: 9:31am On Feb 17, 2015 |
Papist:How else can u describe bowing down in front of a statue of Mary and making supplications to it? Or d utterly distasteful scene of block rosary I see everyday un which children kneel down in front of a picture and statue of Mary and recite for hours in honour of Mary. Or bowing down to the blessed sacrament. Please, let us get it real here! |
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