Hiswordxray:

Oh! that is why the world is filled with good people.
But wait the world is not filled with good people...

My friend you can't say human nature is good but the other brother is more correct:

Yes everybody instinctively knows what is good and bad (as a result of Adam eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil).

But the problem is human do not have the instincts to actually do good. We have the knowledge but the ability to do good is lacking so we struggle and push ourselves to always to good. And religion has help by providing rewards and punishment that will motivate us to do good. But this (religion) is also not the solution to the problem.

Our knowledge of good makes us desire to do good but we always fail because we lack the life (the power or ability) to always do good. It is like a Chicken trying to fly like an eagle. It may succeed in flying very high but it can never fly like a eagle

We humans lack what it takes to truly be good. Do not misunderstand me, I am not saying we can not be good but we can't truly be good. Just as a chicken could fly but it can never fly like an eagle.

I have come to realize that every good a person do their is always a selfish motive behind it even when it comes to empathy (trust me I study psychology). Sometimes we do go just to make ourselves feel good about ourselves or to boost our ego and for the sake of self presentation ( make people see us as good people).

We do not do good because it is who we are but their is always a selfish motive behind every good we do. This is because being good is not human nature, we only have the knowledge of good and lack the life to always do it.

The solution is Christ, for he is the life. With Christ in you, you have the ability to always be good. But just like an eagle learn to fly we also need to learn to live by the life of Christ. This learning is different from gathering knowledge of good but it is to help us tap into the life of God in us.

God alone is good. He alone is expert in doing good by living by His life we have the ability to always be good.

The problem is that Christianity have because a religion, it had chosen the wisdom of men, it only knows how to give knowledge and it doesn't know how to give life and teach people to live by that life.

I do good not because of reward or punishment but because it is the only thing I know how to do, it is who I am. This is how it is suppose to be.

May God bless you for this post

I know of Tai Solarin who was a good man without God.

Image123:

What is goodness sake?

You're prattling,if you don't have anything intelligent to say,quite repeating cra.p..

Ok

Adiwana:

a lil question for you
1)why do you need the law even though you know all the ''possible vices''
2)why school rules&regulations even though you know coming to class after the teaher is a big offence
3).why do you need office regulations even though you know you are suppsoe to be in office before 8am.
See,with all this,we all know what is good and bad.but the bible is also there and pastors and religious leaders to help us..the reason you cant be good without God is same reason a student goes to school even with all the text books he has.why dont he stay at home and read it?many you think are good are Wolves in sheep clothing.just as america appears to be helping Ukraine by sending Weapons to them but know that Russia will extraminate them thus leading to Ukraine depending on them for survival..open you eyes bro

No...You open your eyes.

johnydon22:

Oh yes... doing something for an expectation is not inherent goodness.. you only did it for your own gain (reward)

Since we are talking about good deeds I believe if you read the Bible very well you will discover that it teaches doing good deeds without expecting reward i.e just for the sake of goodness(the account of the "good" Samaritan is a popular example). The major reason I believe a reward is attached by God for doing good deeds to others is to make those people that don't want to do good deeds to cultivate the habit of doing good deeds(but good deeds alone will not get you to heaven but it will help add to your record)
every human has the capacity to do good and evil but various factors and experience tend to affect what we do(and the evil prevails more) but God through the Bible helps us to guide our actions towards doing good.

johnydon22:


Our morality comes from our humanity, by contrasting your feelings to that of others you will learn to be good towards all... The human nature is moral and good.

Our intellect guides our thinking and empathy guides our act... Morality do not depend on any book or creed. Those books too are also a product of humans and greatly influenced by their culture.
e.g- You do not need to rush and check in the bible or koran to check if stealing is good or bad, You know taking someone else's thing is not moral.

You do not need the bible or koran to tell you slavery and enslaving is bad even though both clearly never forbids it infact the two books endorsed it in a way.
So our morality stems from our humanity.. our intellect and empathy.

Like i have always tried to tell theists.. Goodness doesnt depend on reward or punishment.
If you are good because of the promise of heaven, you are only good because you want reward thereby you are only good for your own gain at the end.. We call it "Selfishness" and is that real goodness?

If you are good because of the threat of hell, you are only good because you fear hell therefore you are only good for you own gain at the end saving your own skin...its called "Selfishness" is that real goodness?

I that try to be good without expecting any reward or hoping to escape punishment and you that is good cus of reward or fear, Who really is moral?

Real goodness entails being good because you know it is right and want good to happen. cus you believe the earth and humans deserve goodness.

The idea of God was brought to make people not to accept responsible for their actions.
I am responsible for all my actions be it good or bad..

And this issue of forgiveness is that not a deceptive concept to rid people of their guilt?
Take for instance i stole from you, i regret my actions and come back to seek your forgiveness and return the item and you forgive thereby you already cleared your mind of it and it doesnt hurt anymore cus you already forgave me cus i came to you.

I stole from you, i regret my actions then i go to my room and mutter some prayers, come and out and say i am forgiven when you that i took your item is still hurting and doesnt even know i did it.

Which is forgiveness and which is moral?

We do not need forgiveness from any deity or gods we only need forgiveness from ourselves and one another..

Come and tender your own opinion on this

now this is wisdom.

timmyblast:
Na question be these: let's do a lil bit of mathematics: Good - God = o.

U re really Mistaken my Frnd!! That your Mathematics is a Bluff!!

wisdompraise:


You can't claim to be moral without the fear of God. The final prove of your morality will be measured by how much you fear and reverence God the author of morality.

So put God aside you will fine that nobody will be moral.

You know what, that your Put God aside and you will find that nobody will be Moral is the Biggest of the biggest Lie I ve ever heard before!! On dat Statement of yours, go make a research Pls.

johnydon22:


And am sure you know their are thousands of Gods being worshipped by humans...
No Gods is the author of morality, morality is a human concept that has its roots in human empathy towards others and the culture of a particular society.

e.g: The jews endorsed slavery and yahweh their god endorsed it too according to them it is good to keep slaves, But now i see nobody having slaves cus we know it is not right neither is it good to enslave anybody.

Isis and other islamic sects think they are doing the will of allah, thereby their actions are right but we all frown at their actions cus we know it goes against emapthy and humanity.

MORALITY IS HUMAN

Brother we only have God and gods, there is nothing like "Gods"

And remember am talking about God the creator of the universe and not gods or Gods as you said.

Or do you want to tell me that the world created itself?

asala1:
Clearly, Christians on this forum turn people to atheist. Following this argument from both side you can clearly see difference between the two groups. You guys are making mockery of yourselves and Christianity.

Bill and Melinda Gate are spending millions of dollar to fight diseases in Africa yearly especially in Nigeria where we equally have many very rich religious institutions who don't even give a damn. These guys don't even believe in God.

have you read Matthew 25:31-46? Christ made it clear there that if you do good to the people in need you are doing to him also. what that means is that you cannot be justified by God if you claim to be a Christian but do not do good to people. read also James 1:22-27, Galatians 6:9-10

sukkot:
i hear all that bros but the question was IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE GOOD WITHOUT GOD, and the answer is YES IT IS POSSIBLE TO BE GOOD WITHOUT GOD, never mind the motivation. just because a person believes in God does not make them morally superior to someone who doesnt believe in God, in fact you will find out that the ones who believe in God are the most evil. so the ability to be good or bad has nothing to do with your belief in God. if you were a wicked person before you found God-more than likely you will be a wicked christian. if you were a nice person before you found God then more than likely you will be a nice christian. it is not your belief in God that changes your character, it is your absolute dedication to God that changes your character.

I have commented thrice on this topic before I saw your post. if I had seen it I would have left the thread to read another one because you explained the point a lot of people are missing.

This is a very tricky question, i must say, being a good atheist Has its limit, about a week ago, an atheist killed 3 muslims in USA, I'm sure he wouldn't have done that if he were a Christian. He might have been a good man, but he had no moral guidance, he had no one to input the constructive fear in him. Christianity is not by force, its a thing of choice, its not ISIS, even Christ knew doubting Thomas will abound in the last days. Yes you can be self righteous but without a source of moral guidance, you may backslide, everyone needs a source of constructive fear in them to succeed. Christ is beyond myth.

wisdompraise:


Brother we only have God and gods, there is nothing like "Gods"

And remember am talking about God the creator of the universe and not gods or Gods as you said.

Or do you want to tell me that the world created itself?

That is what you think, that word God is a distinction all these ideas share its exclusive to neither and dont give me the capital G thingie..

So now tell me which of them is the creator of the universe... cus Allah, Yahweh, Osiris, zeus, mithras all make such claims...

what will it profit a man to b the goodest guy in the world and yet lose his soul?

Now to my questions Nairalanders.

(1) Where does Morality come from?

Let's start with a definition:
Morality
1. conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.
2. moral quality or character.
3. virtue in sexual matters; chastity.
4. a doctrine or system of morals.
5. moral instruction; a moral lesson, precept, discourse, or utterance.

So where does morality come from?
Based on the definitions, taking note of the emboldened, I'd say one's inherent principles, the law and doctrinal teachings.
It's impossible to eliminate one and consider morality the sole product of a deity.

(2) What guides your thinking about how to act?

Personally, it's a combination of everything listed in (1) above. I can't say Christianity hasn't played a part in forming my moral compass, nor can it be said that the laws of the land (constitution) has not been 'intricately' carved out from religion among other things or isn't a yardstick to measure how one must act.
Likewise the concept of right and wrong changes over time. At one time killing one's enemy by one's own sword was considered okay; today, jungle justice isn't consoled. Before a man is persecuted, he has a right to fair hearing before a court . Basically today it is morally wrong to kill another man outside the confines of the law.
(Something else to consider is the concept of free will).

(3) Do you choose to act Morally mostly because of the promise of Reward or the threat of Punishment- from GOD or from some other Authority. Do you agree contrary to what some believe, living your life ethically is even more important if you are an Atheist, since if you do something Morally Reprehensible there is no God to forgive you, and the only value your life has is the Choices you make?

Not sure. When something has been ingrained into your psyche, I strongly doubt your initial thought process before defending your values is what deity or aspect of the law you're about to contravene or uphold.
When something is a part of your reality, it just is.
If one must go through the motions everytime one has to make a decision, then such a person is still in the molding phase. And a person in a journey to self-identity can hardly be called morally upright (yet). We can try to be 'good' based on existing standards, or we can choose to be 'bad' based on same standards.

One can only be called morally upright 'based on existing standards ' at a time, when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony.

My two kobo.

johnydon22:
Good morning bro... Like i said in my post goodness is a product of empathy, Considering the feelings of others in your deeds... So good deeds can be said as a deed that coincides with your own good, the good of others and the collective good of the society.

we still haven't define what good represents. when Nazi were killing of Jews, it was good for them. from where you're coming from morality is subjective, everyone makes up what is right and good for them or their society. like I said history is a great source

I see no way such mundane thing like exams can be reconciled to the concept of goodness but yet i will answer. . . study is of no wide scope, everyone on their own and it is unfair to contrast this to the concept of good.
So go back to my post again and read it again.

those were examples rebutting the idea that being moral for the sake of not wanting to go to hell is selfish, the bible says the Fear of God who can destroy the body and cast the soul in to hell is the beginning of wisdom, the bible says perfect love casts out fear. meaning fear cautions, diligence brings understanding.

Like i have told someone before any action that is being induced on you by fear or any other factor is not born out pure will, True goodness stems from pure will, goodness should not be dependent on any fear of punishment cus if it those it means without that concept of punishment they will be no goodness.

how are you so sure we have free will? from a materialistic point of view, we are a product of evolution, our mind is a higher evolved apes mind, and it's all we got. we dance to the tune of our biological make up.

If you take the feelings of others and collective good of the society into consideration then you will be good towards all because you know it is right to be good.

wouldn't this be another way of wording love your neighbor as yourself? and don't you wish everyone sees it that way. Sadly in all of human history it has not been so

A look at human history will also inform you that humans have been good and bad to each other. . . None of us are born good or evil but we all have the instinct of good or evil, so we are all capable of great good and great evil it is the choices we make in our deeds that determines of it is right or wrong.

you and I know the latter was ans still is the most prevalent, Nigeria is a nice big example.

Immanuel Kant opined that :Good is God and God is good..
After the fall of Man, we lost some divine attributes embedded in the likeness of God.. We didn't lose the image of God..
We lost attributes like the spiritual likeness of God..
Every man is born with morality.. When you do good, you know.. When you commit evil, you also know..
Self righteousness and morality are filthy rags before God. You can be good to an extent without God, its more like building your own tower of babel to reach God..
Morality withChrist righteousness is ultimate goodness.

Misogynist2014:
This is a very tricky question, i must say, being a good atheist Has its limit, about a week ago, an atheist killed 3 muslims in USA, I'm sure he wouldn't have done that if he were a Christian. He might have been a good man, but he had no moral guidance, he had no one to input the constructive fear in him. Christianity is not by force, its a thing of choice, its not ISIS, even Christ knew doubting Thomas will abound in the last days. Yes you can be self righteous but without a source of moral guidance, you may backslide, everyone needs a source of constructive fear in them to succeed. Christ is beyond myth.

Lol So christians dont kill, my brother i wonder which planet you are in.
If we start counting the day to day crimes committed by Christians, just here in Nigeria nairaland will be filled up.... the killings and robbing, seriously you can do better.

Christ is beyond myth as much as Hercules, Perseus are beyond myth my friend.

Image123:


Ya right, you were never a christian i guess. i will ask you one question though. Is your Muslim friend perfect?

No my Muslim friend is not perfect. Do you know of any perfect christian? What has perfection got to do with this?

tevinsolt:


to admit there's goodness is a truth statement that incites an innate worth of humans, and by so doing, you imply we have a responsibility to ourselves and others to carry out what is morally good. Inanimate objects don't have this sense of responsibility so do animals with the exception of homo sapiens. If there's no God, we have no value anymore than a piece of rock on the ground, so whatever you do to forge ahead in life (not caring who you hurt while doing so) it doesn't matter, because the end justifies the means. If there's no God, what you do with your life from when you were born till your last breath is meaningless because our solar system is one giant dynamite waiting to detonate.

Can you show me any value or moral system that wasn't created by man? Please show me one moral system that was created by God alone and not by man. Show me a moral system that was created by God alone without man in the picture. How does God make human life meaningful? Demonstrate that claim please. How is life meaningless without God. And which God by the way. Is the life of the christian more meaningful than that of the Hindu? Can you show that to be true? What about the life of the atheist? Is the life of a muslim better than that of an atheist? Can you demonstrate that to be true? How does God makes people's lives meaningful here on earth? Show me one moral system that God alone created, tell me why God created it and when he created it alone without human input.

They question i asked the mad man claiming to be a philosopher is that
ALLAH created you for a purpose to serve him.
He brought you here to test the best among you.
He bring life and cause death. He is one and only.
How can you be good without him? dont forget he gave you eyes, hands mouth and even tongue to taste?? Go get a life!

wisdompraise:


You can't claim to be moral without the fear of God. The final prove of your morality will be measured by how much you fear and reverence God the author of morality.

So put God aside you will fine that nobody will be moral.

Many people are moral without God. Many are immoral because of God. ISIS is presently beheading people and spreading their terror because of God. Before them Christians did worse all in the name of God. God doesn't make people moral or good. Its a great fallacy.

tevinsolt:

we still haven't define what good represents. when Nazi were killing of Jews, it was good for them. from where you're coming from morality is subjective, everyone makes up what is right and good for them or their society. like I said history is a great source

If you had read my post well you have seen where i stated Morality is a product of empathy, by taking the feelings of others into consideration in your deeds Nazi killing jews was certainly against empathy so how can it be moral in a universal scope? The ancient isrealites wiping entire cities, countries is not moral either and according to them yahweh told them to.

tevinsolt:

those were examples rebutting the idea that being moral for the sake of not wanting to go to hell is selfish, the bible says the Fear of God who can destroy the body and cast the soul in to hell is the beginning of wisdom, the bible says perfect love casts out fear. meaning fear cautions, diligence brings understanding.

I think none needs being said more on this.. i think my point was clear enough

tevinsolt:

how are you so sure we have free will? from a materialistic point of view, we are a product of evolution, our mind is a higher evolved apes mind, and it's all we got. we dance to the tune of our biological make up.

Now did you miss the part were i mentioned intellect? and am sure i never mentioned free will here i said Pure Will please dont change my words.

tevinsolt:

wouldn't this be another way of wording love your neighbor as yourself? and don't you wish everyone sees it that way. Sadly in all of human history it has not been so

Call it whatever you deem fit.. you employ it or not is your choice

tevinsolt:

you and I know the latter was ans still is the most prevalent, Nigeria is a nice big example.

Nigeria is a nice big example of a religiously saturated society even with all the psychological fear and control utilized by religion, is still this... thanks for bringing that up.

Us true christains is the HOLY SpIRIT,he is real,he was sent to us from christ,to guide us in all dat we do or come across ONLY wen we accept him,being good is not enough,u nid d holy spirit as ur companion to make all whole and divine

Acekidc4:
A frnd of My Dad who is a Religion Philosopher was arguing with my Dad n some of their frnds that being an Atheist does not mean"anything goes"- infact, quite the opposite. What do you think? Can Morality be Independent of GOD? Can people who don't believe in GOD still be as"Good" as those who do? What govern your own decision about whether and how to act Ethically?

I personally gather that many people believe that Atheism implies Nihilism- that rejecting GOD means rejecting Morality. A person who denies GOD, they reason must be, if not actively Evil, at least indifferent to considerations of Right n Wrong.

Now to my questions Nairalander's.
(1) Where does Morality come from?
(2) What guides your thinking about how to act?
(3) Do you choose to act Morally mostly because of the promise of Reward or the threat of Punishment- from GOD or from some other Authority. Do you agree contrary to what some believe, living your life ethically is even more important if you are an Atheist, since if you do something Morally Reprehensible there is no God to forgive you, and the only value your life has is the Choices you make?

Macof, Sukkot, Tallesty, Mizmycoli, Ymodulus, Seun, Xcapizt, pastorkun, Kay17, Joseph1013, Virginfinder, Truthman2012, Malvisguy212. Come oh!!! Abeg come contribute!!!

what makes

Acekidc4:
A frnd of My Dad who is a Religion Philosopher was arguing with my Dad n some of their frnds that being an Atheist does not mean"anything goes"- infact, quite the opposite. What do you think? Can Morality be Independent of GOD? Can people who don't believe in GOD still be as"Good" as those who do? What govern your own decision about whether and how to act Ethically?

I personally gather that many people believe that Atheism implies Nihilism- that rejecting GOD means rejecting Morality. A person who denies GOD, they reason must be, if not actively Evil, at least indifferent to considerations of Right n Wrong.

Now to my questions Nairalander's.
(1) Where does Morality come from?
(2) What guides your thinking about how to act?
(3) Do you choose to act Morally mostly because of the promise of Reward or the threat of Punishment- from GOD or from some other Authority. Do you agree contrary to what some believe, living your life ethically is even more important if you are an Atheist, since if you do something Morally Reprehensible there is no God to forgive you, and the only value your life has is the Choices you make?

Macof, Sukkot, Tallesty, Mizmycoli, Ymodulus, Seun, Xcapizt, pastorkun, Kay17, Joseph1013, Virginfinder, Truthman2012, Malvisguy212. Come oh!!! Abeg come contribute!!!

If u believed in the story of Kane and Abel.
You would have come to know morality comes from God

dalaman:


Can you show me any value or moral system that wasn't created by man? Please show me one moral system that was created by God alone and not by man. Show me a moral system that was created by God alone without man in the picture. How does God make human life meaningful? Demonstrate that claim please. How is life meaningless without God. And which God by the way. Is the life of the christian more meaningful than that of the Hindu? Can you show that to be true? What about the life of the atheist? Is the life of a muslim better than that of an atheist? Can you demonstrate that to be true? How does God makes people's lives meaningful here on earth? Show me one moral system that God alone created, tell me why God created it and when he created it alone without human input.

Nice one bro dont be surprised when he turns it upside down

danjumakolo:


If u believed in the story of Kane and Abel.
You would have come to know morality comes from God

The story of cain and abel is still a human constructed fabricated story..

Originally a kenite fable adopted by the jews ...

So humans do it all, fabricate and form stories to fit any idea they concieve

johnydon22:

muslims also believe theirs is the God almighty, creator of the heavens and the earth and all within, so does the hindhus and pegans and greeks and vikings... so?

I cannot speak for them or about what they believe. What is worthy of remembrance are the words of Jesus, when he said " I am The Way, The Truth and the Life", No man comes to the Father except by me" ( John 14:6) Jesus was very definite about who he was and still is.

ikechizoba:
Us true christains is the HOLY SpIRIT,he is real,he was sent to us from christ,to guide us in all dat we do or come across ONLY wen we accept him,being good is not enough,u nid d holy spirit as ur companion to make all whole and divine what makes

so what about muslims, hundhus, pegans and atheists and other folks that gat nothing to do with christianity and thereby have nothing to do with this your holy spirit... are they not good too?

FrenchyL:


I cannot speak for them or about what they believe. What is worthy of remembrance are the words of Jesus, when he said " I am The Way, The Truth and the Life", No man comes to the Father except by me" ( John 14:6) Jesus was very definite about who he was and still is.

The ancient Egyptian deity Horus also made such claims thousands of years before Jesus!