Per your title, this is my overarching answer: philosophical questions come in layers. There are irreligious people with good morals. But when you examine the roots of those morals you will find them in religion. That's why we call questions like that loaded. Because the APPARENT answers are both yes and no. Please note the qualifier "apparent".

To your specific questions though...

Acekidc4: (1) Where does Morality come from?

Ultimately, from God. Because uniformity requires the existence of a standard. Without a standard, there is only chaos and arbitrariness, not uniformity.

Morality is essentially a uniform code of behavior. We derive this code from something external to us humans. We invent laws and regulations to approximate to an ideal that we all agree exists. That is why our laws continue to change. It isn't that morality changes, it is that we continue to try to approximate to a perfect situation that we take for granted exists.

Acekidc4: (2) What guides your thinking about how to act?

Personally, the Bible. And it does because I have tested and seen that practically every tenet of morality and ethics is at perfection in the Bible. A world where everything is exactly as the Bible, for reasons of simplicity, prescribes is a perfect one.

Acekidc4: (3) Do you choose to act Morally mostly because of the promise of Reward or the threat of Punishment- from GOD or from some other Authority. Do you agree contrary to what some believe, living your life ethically is even more important if you are an Atheist, since if you do something Morally Reprehensible there is no God to forgive you, and the only value your life has is the Choices you make?

To the first, no. Doing wrong is like bending my arm the wrong way, it actually hurts. Pain is actually an electric signal like pleasure. It is your brain that tells you that one is sweet and desirable and the other is not. If your brain could be retained to consider both the same or to switch one for the other, painful things may become pleasurable or simply like any other sensation.

Wrongdoing for me transmits a message of unwellness, unwholesomeness. It's a state of ill health. Welldoing on the other hand is like a right state of nature. Like all is well with me.

Reward or not is not particularly compelling to me. Unless the reward is that sense of wholeness and wellness that I already spoke of.

I said dis before,it should answer u.

In point of fact, we humans are a lot like animals and a number of other species have demonstrated that they have something that looks like a rudimentary conscience and a rudimentary system of morals. It has, for example,been observed that chimpanzees will exhibit what appears to be fear and shame when they do something that violates the rules of its group. Should it be assumed that the chimpanzee fears God? Or is it instead more likely that such feelings should develop in social animals?
It's not a surprise that something like this would evolve naturally. Morals are, basically, the rules by which our social groups function. They ensure that things are reasonably fair and that relationships run reasonably smoothly. Social groups simply wouldn't survive without rules, so the evolution of the ability to create and follow rules should be expected. Humans are social animals so it's also to be expected that, like other social animals, we would have social rules which regulate group behavior. We certainly don't need gods to explain it.

(Can You Be Good Without GOD??) ask ur self have u seen God.....dont you know God is in us....simple...so Yes you can be Good without God...in Nigeria people use God as a religious way of life....but truly religion is not the basic of truth truth is inborn ok

johnydon22:

Read the post again and again till you get it.

was only following our argument. If you are not yet born again, then i just want you to know that God loves you and he created you for a purpose. One which you can only fulfill by accepting Jesus Christ into your life by making him Lord and savior of all that concerns you. It is not mandatory but it is in your very best interest. we live in are dangerous times and all these signs of wars and unnecessary killings were foretold by Jesus, the end is here. The question you need to ask yourself is this: Where would you spend eternity? I guess you know that life does not end on the earth. Would Horus or whoever save your soul? Just questions that you should ponder upon.

FrenchyL:


was only following our argument. If you are not yet born again, then i just want you to know that God loves you and he created you for a purpose. One which you can only fulfill by accepting Jesus Christ into your life by making him Lord and savior of all that concerns you. It is not mandatory but it is in your very best interest. we live in are dangerous times and all these signs of wars and unnecessary killings were foretold by Jesus, the end is here. The question you need to ask yourself is this: Where would you spend eternity? I guess you know that life does not end on the earth. Would Horus or whoever save your soul? Just questions that you should ponder upon.

ok sir i will do just that, Just for the sake of not derailing this thread i will not reply all your above yarn
Can you now just stick to the thread and dont bring in your superstitious implausible brouhaha into it?

(i.e: Your comprehension is quite shallow, If not you wouldnt think i believe in horus.
Horus and Jesus fables are just same implausible myths, i choose to live in reality... and oh lest i forget. "when you die, you are bleeping dead and nothing more)

If you want you can open another thread on it so we can discuss it more, but please lets not derail this one

Image123:

No one is inherently good, sorry.

Says who ? your Bible ?

Ultimately a man can not be judged to be good in all ramifications , while one is hard working , helps people in need , takes care of his family , he still might be cheating on his wife with another woman , elsewhere and in other religions this might not even qualify to be bad. We know good from bad by instinct and not by any sacred book

Psl16:2..oh my soul,you have said to the lord "my goodness is nothing apart from you"

johnydon22:


They are thousands of God(s) believd by humans, i for one believe in none cus i find that concept implausible and archaic.

I choose to live in reality!!!

Since dude doesn't believe in god.

I see no reason why dude will post this shiit on NL.

There better atheistic sites and blogs u can post your write up.

johnydon22:

According to you human life is only special because God made it, forgetting that this God also made the animals so it makes them special too which means you have no right what so ever to kill any.

Humans possess high intellect that is what drives our thinking, It is in our intellect that we derive the concept of empathy.

So thats how we know that killing our fellow human is wrong cus we wouldnt want any to kill us too.

(Was abraham right or wrong to be willing to sacrifice isaac?)
that is what religious good is all about, doing what you are told no matter what is right.

you are not getting the point. if we all evolved from a common ancestor why is it ok for humans to indulge in a deliciously cooked dead animals but wrong for humans to do so to other humans? why isn't there this sense of morality in the animal kingdom? there's no empathy, there's no good or evil from where you coming from.

johnydon22:


Cultures influence greatly in the human society, Oh yes Nazis Believed it was, So did the jews when they were killing and dashing infants against rocks, So did the calabar people... But this does not change the fact that it is wrong and we all know it goes against empathy towards the victims.

The 10 commandments if that is your yardstick for measuring morality is greatly disappointing... I do not see where it said do not enslaved, Do not make wars etc... You and do not need to check the 10 commandments to see if it is ok to steal, even tho it is not in the 10 commandments you and i still find it wrong to enslave anybody.

The ugarit text from whence these commandments were hewn accommodates many more laws against other vices the 10 commandment didnt..
Still yet it doesnt change the fact that both are all works of humans.

your idea of morality is based on this ideal world, where all human mind (empathy) is in sync. Reality is, it is not so. if there's no mind prior to the human mind, then every mind formulates its morality. when you say something is wrong, you're implying something shouldn't have happened but on what basis, In the American declaration of independence from the Britain....... it states thus "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." If there's no God you're just another walking prey. like Darwin put it it'll be the survival of the fittest.

tevinsolt:

you are not getting the point. if we all evolved from a common ancestor why is it ok for humans to indulge in a deliciously cooked dead animals but wrong for humans to do so to other humans? why isn't there this sense of morality in the animal kingdom? there's no empathy, there's no good or evil from where you coming from.

lolzz i dont think you know much about animals do you?

Every animal have a basic sense of morality..

Elephants would never leave a wounded comrade behind, Monkeys are known to ostracize a member of the pack if its action goes against the whole pack... and so it goes on and on.

Compare their intellect with ours!

Oh for the eating of other animal thingie am sure you know about food chains and food web which man topples above all

tevinsolt:

your idea of morality is based on this ideal world, where all human mind (empathy) is in sync. Reality is, it is not so. if there's no mind prior to the human mind, then every mind formulates its morality. when you say something is wrong, you're implying something shouldn't have happened but on what basis, In the American declaration of independence from the Britain....... it states thus "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." If there's no God you're just another walking prey. like Darwin put it it'll be the survival of the fittest.

And somehow the above post just concludes it.

Please i refer you to start from my previous posts and posts from other people on this thread, i see no more need going in unnecessary circles..

danjumakolo:


Since dude doesn't believe in god.

I see no reason why dude will post this shiit on NL.

There better atheistic sites and blogs u can post your write up.

I just answered a simple question bro, dont get all emotional over nothing.

We are having an intellectual discussion here...

You have to first define what being Good means! If one goes etymologically, the answer is no, because BEING which all came from GOD is GOOD. Yes one can keep his/her own moral code without actually believing in the existence of GOD. Morality varies from culture to culture but a universal morality must again be rooted in BEING which is equal to GOOD, created by GOD.
#failing to believe in the existence of God doesn't mean that he doesn't exist but you are only expressing your inability to grasp the reality of his existence!

johnydon22:


@bolded...look at the type of poo someone is talking... Seriously i just find it very hard and infuriating to reply this type of post anymore...

The worst now is if you ask him how all humans are bad he will start telling you the Jewish mythical fables of adam and eve with the talking snake.. **Sighs**

You have a big problem with learning. A forum is an opportunity for you to learn, not just look for imaginary loopholes to attack. All you did now was to discard the many sentences and lines that i typed and beat yourself on one sentence. Would you like to be treated the same way?
If you do not agree with stuff, ignore or make your point/case in a civil manner. i am not the cause of your frustrations, the truth is bitter.
All humans are bad and a product of a fallen race. Those are my findings and conclusions, and yes it very well agrees with the Bible. i have come to discover that ALL have indeed sinned and come short of God's glory. Humans are bad because they do not meet up with the standard of what good is. i have been asking you forever now what good is. What is your criteria, what is your standard, benchmark or yardstick. It has been largely ignored or replied tritely. The reality is that my standard of good is definitely not your standard, you seem to have no standard. Feeling or empathy is no standard because it changes, it is not constant or standard. By my standard of good, all humans are bad and are a product of a fallen race. So you tell us what your standard is instead of giving me some general and meaningless statement of GOODNESS' sake, or that you have said everything that needs to be said.

johnydon22:

Seriously i wonder how you still manage to ask such questions after all the replies you have gotten so far.. So believing in a deity is an automatic ticket to being good right? Because boko haram, isis believe in allah they are automatically good right? because the christian crusaders believed in yahweh they are automatically good... hmmm now thats a shallow criteria for being good... I have told you before our intellect directs our thinking and our empathy directs our action... Only ur good deeds can make you good and only ur bad deeds can make you bad.

Stop second-guessing me, you insult me that way because you do not know me. you only think you do. Simply tell how you arrive at your conclusions. We cannot just take your word for it, or are you God? For instance, why do you think that believing in God or not does not make you good, or that your behaviour makes you good? How do you conclude that?
Like i said, do not second-guess me. i never said believing in God automatically makes you good, so do not put that on me. The devils believe in God, they are not good. Intellect has nothing to do with goodness, and empathy is a very fickle thing very unreliable.

Just because of the bolded and thats all.

i am asking why you want or encourage me to be good for GOODNESS'sake. Your answer is FOR GOODNESS' sake. That makes no sense, can you be more elaborate. What is goodness' sake? You need to be very clear what you mean, because i and other christians are capable of also going on our wavelength and just be dishing out Bible passages and terms like you all are meant to understand by default.

Oh being good for any abstract ideas is your own cup of tea.. Being good because it is right to be good is the essence of goodness.

You did not answer me, i think it is a simple YES or NO. Is it okay for me to be good for God's sake? Who determines the essence of goodness?

dalaman:


How and why is goodness determined only by God? demonstrate to me with clear examples what it means to be good only because it takes God to be good. Why can't a person be good without God? How is God good and what makes goodness to exist only because of God?

Goodness is determined ONLY by God because truth and goodness is absolute. Even in our world, we try to get just one body to approve or standardize things. That way there is no or less chaos. If everybody is determining what is good, there will be chaos, because your definition of good may not be my definition of good. There has to be a higher appeal/authority, what we call a moral law giver.
If i am brilliant, and i attend classes, buy textbooks, read and study etc. At one point in Nigeria, i need to get a form from WAEC to write my school leaving certification examinations. In this case, WAEC is the higher authority, the approved body as it were. i cannot just say i am brilliant and i know it all and not register under WAEC. Even if i know the exam dates, come for the exams, write the exams etc, i do not get anything because all my over sabi is not under authority. Even someone not as brilliant or good as i am will have certificate while i do not have. Why? Because he registered, i did not. God is good because He created good, and has commanded everything that is good. His good is the certified good as it were, all other good is counterfeit waste.

donbenie:
You're prattling,if you don't have anything intelligent to say,quite repeating cra.p..

Okay, i am prattling, you that you are more mature and knowledgeable, please define goodness and help me. Is this not what we are talking about? Now, you will claim you are good, and that you help others, but you see someone behaving childish and you cannot help him. Help me, what is goodness' sake?

frank317:


No my Muslim friend is not perfect. Do you know of any perfect christian? What has perfection got to do with this?

You see your life? Even you confess that your Muslim friend is not perfect. Nobody is perfect by himself, all have sinned and come/fall short of God's glory. As nice as your friend is, he is not good enough. BTW, believing in my God is not what makes anyone good enough.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

neoapocalypse:


Says who ? your Bible ?

Ultimately a man can not be judged to be good in all ramifications , while one is hard working , helps people in need , takes care of his family , he still might be cheating on his wife with another woman , elsewhere and in other religions this might not even qualify to be bad. We know good from bad by instinct and not by any sacred book

Yes oh, my Bible. Abi i should listen to you instead?

johnydon22:

ok sir i will do just that, Just for the sake of not derailing this thread i will not reply all your above yarn
Can you now just stick to the thread and dont bring in your superstitious implausible brouhaha into it?

(i.e: Your comprehension is quite shallow, If not you wouldnt think i believe in horus.
Horus and Jesus fables are just same implausible myths, i choose to live in reality... and oh lest i forget. "when you die, you are bleeping dead and nothing more)

If you want you can open another thread on it so we can discuss it more, but please lets not derail this one

Hey take it easy! What you consider to be a fable isn't and in all fairness anyone who thinks that there is no life after death, just like you do, is actually the ignorant,shallow minded one. No pun intended. Enjoy!

FrenchyL:


Hey take it easy! What you consider to be a fable isn't and in all fairness anyone who thinks that there is no life after death, just like you do, is actually the ignorant,shallow minded one. No pun intended. Enjoy!

**sighs** Ok boss carry on.

As for FORGIVENESS: God not expect us to only pray for forgiveness but to physical right the wrong done to our fellow humans like Zaccheaus did. Remember Follow Peace with all men and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. Heb 12:14

That's what Christianity calls Restitution. You stole before u repented, you get to return it to the rightful owner after repentance. I know people that returned embezzled/stolen cash to their previous employee, murderers who have been made cleansed by the blood of Jesus have gone to the families of the deceased to make confessions. Many Christians have relegated that part of the gospel to the background to suit their own convenience. I must also state here that no restitution should be done without prayers and most times fasting. I am speaking from experience.

I imagine how an employee that stole my money will walk up to me to tell that Jesus is Lord?

johnydon22:

so what about muslims, hundhus, pegans and atheists and other folks that gat nothing to do with christianity and thereby have nothing to do with this your holy spirit... are they not good too?

am a christain,and dat is my own belive,they hv theirs

Image123:


Goodness is determined ONLY by God because truth and goodness is absolute. Even in our world, we try to get just one body to approve or standardize things. That way there is no or less chaos. If everybody is determining what is good, there will be chaos, because your definition of good may not be my definition of good. There has to be a higher appeal/authority, what we call a moral law giver.
If i am brilliant, and i attend classes, buy textbooks, read and study etc. At one point in Nigeria, i need to get a form from WAEC to write my school leaving certification examinations. In this case, WAEC is the higher authority, the approved body as it were. i cannot just say i am brilliant and i know it all and not register under WAEC. Even if i know the exam dates, come for the exams, write the exams etc, i do not get anything because all my over sabi is not under authority. Even someone not as brilliant or good as i am will have certificate while i do not have. Why? Because he registered, i did not. God is good because He created good, and has commanded everything that is good. His good is the certified good as it were, all other good is counterfeit waste.

Goodness is determined by which God? Allah, Brahma, Yahweh, Rah Amun? Which God exactly because we know that goodness and morality as a whole has been shown to have evolved over time among the human race. Conquered races take up the culture of their masters. You are yet to show how God alone has determined what goodness is why it is true. Many moral injunctionss and principles written inside the bible are considered to be bad in many societies including christian societies. There are no moral absolutes in this world. Societies through various leaders (political and religious )determine what is right or wrong. No God has ever been shown to give any law to any society rather people make laws for themselves and use their various ideas amd concept of God and government as an enforcing mechanism. Goodness is a creation of men it has nothing to do with God Since there are many different Gods each with different concept of goodness.

johnydon22:


lolzz i dont think you know much about animals do you?

Every animal have a basic sense of morality..

Elephants would never leave a wounded comrade behind, Monkeys are known to ostracize a member of the pack if its action goes against the whole pack... and so it goes on and on.

Compare their intellect with ours!

Oh for the eating of other animal thingie am sure you know about food chains and food web which man topples above all

mouse eat their babies, lions kill their cubs and so on. Animals have instincts, our understanding and interpretation of the world is what we project on them. If there's no God, then all you have is highly evolved instincts, if you're killed by another human, it doesn't matter because you're basically just dead

Image123:


Yes oh, my Bible. Abi i should listen to you instead?

By all means go on with your delusions

johnydon22:


And somehow the above post just concludes it.

Please i refer you to start from my previous posts and posts from other people on this thread, i see no more need going in unnecessary circles..

you are the one that doesn't get it. you claim there's no God and at the same time assert, morality is objective based on empathy.....most who think the same way you do at least admit if there's no God morality is subjective thus, no good or evil.

tevinsolt:


mouse eat their babies, lions kill their cubs and so on. Animals have instincts, our understanding and interpretation of the world is what we project on them. If there's no God, then all you have is highly evolved instincts, if you're killed by another human, it doesn't matter because you're basically just dead

If you kill another man it matters because his own will come after you and kill or harm you and your own. If you go about killing each other you will exterminate each other. Please read about the native American tribes that almost exterminated each other because of how violent they were towards each other. It was so bad that the 5 rival tribes had to come together and put and end to it. They came up with laws never to fight each other but to settle their disputes through dialogue.our ability as humans to self reflect is what makes us different from other social animals.

dalaman:


If you kill another man it matters because his own will come after you and kill or harm you amd your own. If you go about killing each other you will exterminate each other. Please read about the native American tribes that almost exterminated each other because of how violent they were towards each other. It was so bad that the 5 rival tribes had to come together and put and end to it. They came up with laws never to fight each other but to settle their disputes through dialogue.our ability as humans to self reflect is what makes us different from other social animals.

good thing you said "exterminate". If they had, what does it matter?
If Germans had won the war and had took it upon themselves to kill out the less evolved races. so what's wrong with that? that's more land and more resources for the master Aryan race. you talk as if staying alive has a bigger picture to it or that the existence of humans on earth is of uttermost importance when everything will end shortly in few million years. one thing I got you to do though is admit that society is determines morality.

tevinsolt:

good thing you said "exterminate". If they had, what does it matter?
If Germans had won the war and had took it upon themselves to kill out the less evolved races. so what's wrong with that? that's more land and more resources for the master Aryan race. you talk as if staying alive has a bigger picture to it or that the existence of humans on earth is of uttermost importance when everything will end shortly in few million years. one thing I got you to do though is admit that society is determines morality.

That's what I have been saying all along. Society is what determines morality. Morality is a function and construction of human societies. According to the bible God told the Israeli to exterminate all the people whose land he gave them either for worshipping other Gods or for attacking his chosen people and sometimes just because they have inhibited the land he promised his chosen people. Many Christians try their very best to spin it around and claim it was a good action when it is clearly wrong. They fail to see the bad in their own God's actions and deeds but are quick to point out that of their rival Muslim God. The winners always write history and try to justify their evil deeds on way or the other. America lied to the world and invade Iraq in 2003, many still belive that their invasion was justified because the history is being written by them.

tevinsolt:


mouse eat their babies, lions kill their cubs and so on. Animals have instincts, our understanding and interpretation of the world is what we project on them. If there's no God, then all you have is highly evolved instincts, if you're killed by another human, it doesn't matter because you're basically just dead

Humans kill their babies too...Exactly thats what it is you just landed where i was heading all this while, All we have is highly evolved instinct or as i call it intellect and that is why we have above other animals... and that is why we know it is wrong to kill another human cus we wouldnt want another to kill us... You are just comparing human intellect and society to other animals just look around you..