true2god:
Bro dave, been a long time. Thought you had finally left nairaland.

my brother, long time. I pop in here once in a while now. More responsibilities means less time to devote to NL.

Where is Empiree?

True2God, keep firing. Let's see if Empiree will claim "anti-islamic sources" as a defence

[quote author=Liekiller post=30945007]

I'm a total atheist when it comes to all the gods people have invented in their history as these were obviously all created in man's image and as a measure for people to explain the world around them and to organize their societies.

I hope you realize that this is christian theory. To make such bold claim is blasphemy. No one saw God. No one can see Him. This is confirmed in their Bible as well. So how then they came to conclusion god is man's image. That's nonsense if you ask me.

Some other religions teach that "God is everywhere." This is actually called "pantheism" and it is the opposite of our believe system in Islam. Allah tells us clearly that there is nothing, anywhere in the universe that resembles Him, nor is He ever in His creation. He tells us in the Quran that He created the universe in six "yawm" (periods of time) and then He "astawah 'ala al Arsh" (rose up, above His Throne). He is there (above His Throne) and will remain there until the End Times. (sura 112). However, He's closer to us than our jugular veins.(by His knowledge)

I can't possibly believe in a god that suspiciously resembles a bronze age warlord,

Lol..that's blaspheme for you

just to name one example. Many other gods were invented to reflect the bright and dark sides of human nature. We humans tend to see ourselves as the center of everything, and our gods reflect that.

I understand. Unfortunately, you made it sound like some idol gods. I think you need proper concept of God

I can't exclude that there is "something" out there, and I don't think we'll ever know. If there is such a thing as god I imagine it to be way beyond our imagination and certainly not some measly humanoid being that is obsessed with (only) us humans, that requires our praise and worship and is a control freak when it comes to what we do in bed, how we dress etc. Just like the sadistic and narcissistic traits humans attribute to their gods.

Lol..you sound like someone hurt you really bad to hate God this much. Well, men do crazy things they attributed to God which are incorrect. Yes, God Almighty is jealous of only one thing, His worship. He requires all mankind to worship Him. However, He stresses that we must understand His concept first before doing that. That's knowing God Himself.

We know from the teachings of Muhammad, peace be upon him, that no one has ever actually seen God - at least not in this lifetime. Nor are we able to use our senses to make some kind of contact with Him. However, we are encouraged in Islam to use our senses and our common sense to recognize that all of this universe could not possibly come into existence on its own. Something had to design it all and then put it into motion. That is beyond our ability to do, yet it is something that we can understand.
We don't have to see an artist to recognize a painting, correct? So, if we see paintings without seeing artists painting them, in the same way, we can believe that Allah created everything without having to see Him (or touch, or hear, etc.).

The idea that He controls what we do in bed, what we wear should be understood in their proper contexts. For instance, He created a man and a woman so that we can reproduce or multiply ourselves. He tells man exactly how to have intercourse with his wife (to avoid anus penetration) for our own good. He tells us to be modest and and maintain simplicity in our dress and not to be extravagance. These aint too much of His demands. However, He gave us free will to accept or shun His commands. Our main purpose of life is to worship Him.

Those are purely projections of human ideas and totally irrelevant in the bigger picture of eternity or whatever we wish to call it.

Again, its all boils down to your concept of God. I have always thought that atheists are just deceiving themselves. Men are created naturally to recognize God. This is "fitra" in Islam. Let me give you example, let's say a load of atheists travel by air, at 35,000 altitude the aircraft develops mechanical problems. It started shaking violently and nose dive towards the ocean.

They scream "oh my God...oh my God". My question is why not scream "oh nothing...oh nothing"?. Another example is if atheist forgets something, he says "oh my God i can't remember". Richard Dawkins is a typical example of this. This is common phenomenon they themselves can not explain. It's natural. I have witnessed this several times. What do you think?

true2god:
@ Empiree,

Also note that countries like yemen, oman, somalia and northern sudan had majority black population before the coming of the arabs. My question to you is this, where are the blacks in oman and yemen? Where are the indigenous blacks in northern sudan? Please go and research it.

The activities of the european invaders\colonialists can still be felt in terms of infratructures they built in most capital cities in africa, most of which are standing till date. In europe and america many blacks, children of former slaves, are active in politics, sports and entertainment, educational sector and what have you. African american\europeans citizens are well intergrated into their socities, all one cant rule out occasion racism.

How many blacks, who are children of former slaves, are in govt in saudi arabia, egypty, tunisia, algeria and other arab\muslim countries who benefitted in arab colonization of blaxks?

You not serious at all. Getting back to you on this. Busy now. Middle East itself was victim of Christians colonial masters. Even Catholics bought and sold Somalian Christians to Arabs and White. The effect is still there today. Again, I will not deny Arab at some point slaved others because Quran recognized it and abolished slavery altogether. That's why you see in the Quran where God says "free slaves" repeatedly for various sins committed by men like murder etc. Brb later.

Empiree:
You not serious at all. Getting back to you on this. Busy now. Middle East itself was victim of (at least White)Christians, colony/slavery. Even Catholics bought and sold Somalian Christians to Arabs and White. The effect is still there today. Again, I will not deny Arab at some point slaved others because Quran recognized it and abolished slavery altogether. That's why you see in the Quran where God says "free slaves" repeatedly for various sins committed by men like murder etc. Brb later.

Are you saying that people freed slaves in Islam because of heavenly reward and not because slavery itself is wrong? i just want to understand you.

You can also please lead me to the Quranic verse abolishing slavery. Plesse, this is interesting. Teach me.

Empiree:
You not serious at all. Getting back to you on this. Busy now. Middle East itself was victim of (at least White)Christians, colony/slavery. Even Catholics bought and sold Somalian Christians to Arabs and White. The effect is still there today. Again, I will not deny Arab at some point slaved others because Quran recognized it and abolished slavery altogether. That's why you see in the Quran where God says "free slaves" repeatedly for various sins committed by men like murder etc. Brb later.

European\christian slave traders were not doing it according to the commandment of Jesus. Jesus never own a slave, traded slaves or even servants. So Europe's entanglement into slave trade was not according to the dictate of christ, it was purely for commercial interest.

Arabs on the other hand took african slaves because they purely follow the sunnah of the prophet. Mohammed married slaves, trade in slaves and received many slaves are war booty. So going by Islamic scriptures, together with the sunnah of the prophet, slave trade is perfectly Islamic.

The white colonized the africans and left after the second world war when the british and french empires fell worldwide and as a result of the atlantic chatter (championed by the US) which mandated the colonial powers to free their colonies. Aside from south africa, the europeans left after independence.

On the other hand, arab\muslim invaders in northern sudan, yemen, oman, egypt (belong to the nubians and the copts) never left after their invasion. They are masters of the invaded lands till now, a black man can never rule sudan, oman, egypt, yemen except the arabs. And the blacks in those countries must embrace Islam by peace or force.

In the US, blacks are senators, house of rep members, city mayors, ambassadors and now occupies the highest office, Prez Barrack Obama. In the UK, few blacks are in the perliament, in france blacks are in the perliament. These countries were active slave trade in the early 17th and 18th century.

The arab world also participated in slave trade, far before the europeans. Is there any black in the govt of saudi arabia, egypt, yemen, uae, algeria etc. I want you to explain this in all honesty.

The europeans have apologized for slave trade many times and have written many book about slave trade, done movies (eg kunta kunte) about european slave trade. Have the arabs\muslims apologized for enslaving africans? No. Has any arab-muslim written any book concerning arab-muslim enslavement of blacks? They (arabs) wont do that because mohammed did not apologize for trading slaves.

It is a mystery that you defend evil in Isalm (read islamic enslavement of blacks)

AllNaijaBlogger:
Where is Empiree?

True2God, keep firing. Let's see if Empiree will claim "anti-islamic sources" as a defence

I didnt consult any anti-islamic website, I was used to be a student of history (as a borrowed course). These are undeniable facts that are known to any student of history.

The arabs tutored the europeans the art of slave trade, geography, maths and even science. European, by nature, are master developer of any art, trade or science. The europeans only advanced a trade the arabs started, that is slave trade, by putting slaves into optimal and maximum use, especially in agriculture and plantation farming.

AllNaijaBlogger:



Are you saying that people freed slaves in Islam because of heavenly reward and not because slavery itself is wrong? i just want to understand you.

You can also please lead me to the Quranic verse abolishing slavery. Plesse, this is interesting. Teach me.

No, thats not the case. Remember i said earlier that Quran recognized Arabs were into some sorts of slave business before the advent of prophet muhammad(saw). Islam slowly abolished it. For instance, the treatment of slave prior to advent of islam was different when Muhammad proclaimed his prophethood. Bilal ibn Rabah is typical example of this. A slave who became the first man to call to prayer. He was also scholar.

The slavery system which had plagued the whole world upon the advent of Islam. Any attempt to suddenly prevent such a deep-rooted system from various societies would then have caused the social, political, as well as economic life to have been vehemently shaken.

Consequently, the divine wisdom was to work towards restricting the sources of slavery or blocking the avenues leading to enslavement whenever possible. In the same vein, as Islam restricted the streams feeding slavery, it expanded its drains in a way that can be understood as a gradual act of cancelling.

Below are just few of Muhammad's advice for slave owners....and read further from my reply to tru2god

Your servants and your slaves are your brothers. Anyone who has slaves should give them from what he eats and wears. He should not charge them with work beyond their capabilities. If you must set them to hard work, in any case I advise you to help them.
Source: Bukhari, Iman, 22; Adab, 44; Muslim, Iman, 38–40; Abu Dawud, Adab, 124

---

Ali reported that the last words of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, were: "The prayer! The prayer! Fear Allah concerning your slaves ! "
Source: Al-Adab al-Mufrad Al-Bukhari , Nr. 158.

---

Jabir ibn 'Abdullah said, "The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, advised that slaves should be well-treated. He said, 'Feed them from what you eat and clothe them from what you wear. Do not punish what Allah has created.' "

Source: Al-Adab al-Mufrad Al-Bukhari , Nr. 188.


Sallam ibn 'Amr reported from one of the Companions of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Your slaves are your brothers, so treat him well. Ask for their help in what is too much for you and help them in what is too much for them."

Source: Al-Adab al-Mufrad Al-Bukhari , Nr. 190.

Abu Hurayra reported that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "The slave has his food and clothing. Do not burden a slave with work which he is incapable of doing."
Source: Al-Adab al-Mufrad Al-Bukhari , Nr. 192.

---

Not one of you should [ when introducing someone ] say ‘This is my slave’ , ‘This is my concubine’. He should call them ‘my daughter’ or ‘my son’ or ‘my brother’.

Source: Ibn Hanbal, Musnad, 2 ,4

"The masters were obliged not to put slaves under hardship; slaves were not to be tortured, abused or treated unjustly. They could marry among “themselves with their master's permission - or with free men or women ! They could appear as witnesses and participate with free men in all “affairs. Many of them were appointed as governors, commanders of army and administrators. In the eyes of Islam, a pious slave has precedence over “an impious free man." Source: Al-Tabataba'i, Tafsir ( vol.16, pp. 338-358 )

The Prophet, had stipulated in his "last pilgrimage" speech:

"And your slaves ! see that you feed them such food as you eat yourselves and dress them what you yourself wear. And if they commit a “mistake which you are not inclined to forgive then sell them, for they are the servants of Allah and are not to be tormented! "

Source: Ibn Sa'd, op. cit., vol. II:1, p. 133

"Serve God, and join not any partners with Him ; and do good to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours “who are strangers, the Companion by your side, the way-farer (ye meet), And what your right hands possess : for God loveth not the arrogant, the “vainglorious" Surah An Nisa, verse 36

The phrase "What your right hands possess" refers to one’s slaves (male and female). Allah swt ordains the kind treatment of slaves in the same verse where He commands man to worship Him and to treat his parents, relations and neighbors generously, and this signifies the importance of this ruling.

Definition of "slavery" in Islam is different from common meaning today. Unfortunately, we use same word. We long derailed this thread. Op's target was about Christianity though

The slavery system which had plagued the whole world upon the advent of Islam. Any attempt to suddenly prevent such a deep-rooted system from various societies would then have caused the social, political, as well as economic life to have been vehemently shaken.

Consequently, the divine wisdom was to work towards restricting the sources of slavery or blocking the avenues leading to enslavement whenever possible. In the same vein, as Islam restricted the streams feeding slavery, it expanded its drains in a way that can be understood as a gradual act of cancelling.

Let us take a look at how some western powers attempted to stop slavery and the outcome of their attempt through comparing these attempts to what has been really achieved by Islam.

Before doing this, one has to learn what is meant by slavery.



Slavery defined

Linguistically: Slavery denotes various meanings of powerlessness and degradation.

Technically: Slavery stands for falling short of assuming authorities shouldered by man such as rulership, judgeship, bearing witness, and ownership. This is because a slave is a person who is owned by another.[1] Consequently, how can one be responsible for others while s/he lacks the authority over his own self.

In today’s world, slavery is prohibited and banned according to international conventions such as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as can be seen in Article 4 which reads,

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

History of slavery

Reviewing the history of humankind with slavery starting with the Hunting Age, then the Pasturing Age, then the Cultivation Age, it becomes evident that slavery was an ongoing phenomenon throughout history. It becomes also clear that slavery was deep-rooted as a human conduct.

Afterwards, both the Torah and the Gospel endorsed slavery and the texts confirming this are beyond counting in a way that lies beyond the scope of this article. However, one can briefly cite that the Jews deem themselves as the Chosen People of Allah and that was the very reason behind their act of enslaving the non-Jewish other either by means of buying or taking prisoners of war. This, indeed, refutes the Orientalists’ allegations that Islam founded the institution of slavery and strengthened its foundations.

Slavery is as old as injustice, despotism, caste system, and exploitation throughout human history. The Qur’an referred to this in the Surah of Prophet Yusuf (peace be upon him) as follows:

{Now, there came a caravan, and they sent forth their water-scout. So he let down his bucket into the well. He said: Oh, glad tidings! Here is a boy! And they hid him as merchandise. Yet God was all-aware of all that they were doing.

Thus they sold him for a paltry price, a number of coins; for they were disinclined toward him.

The man from Egypt who bought him said to his wife: Tend graciously to his dwelling.} (Yusuf 12:19-21)

In addition, enslaving people was one of the penalties for theft at the time of ancient Hebrews. When Prophet Yusuf’s brothers were asked about the penalty for a thief who might have stolen the king’s goblet, they replied,

{…The recompense for it shall be that the one in whose pack it is found – he himself shall be its recompense. Thus do we recompense the wrongdoers for stealing, in our religion.}(Yusuf 12:75)

In ancient civilizations, slavery was regarded as the mainstay of the production and exploitation system. In the Ancient Egyptian civilization as well as the Persian civilization the closed caste system prevented the emancipation of slaves no matter what the will or potentials of the slaves were.

In the Byzantine civilization, the masters were from among the Roman minority, while the barbarians enslaved by the Romans constituted the majority. Some of these civilizations witnessed a number of revolutions by slaves; foremost among which were that of Spartacus (d. BC 71). He was a Thracian gladiator who led a slave revolt in Italy (BC 73-71). He defeated Roman armies in southern Italy, but his forces were crushed at Lucania, where he was killed and many of his troops were crucified.

Emancipation of slaves in the modern age

When Europeans intended to abolish slavery and illegalize slaves trade in the 19th century, their motives were neither spiritual, nor humane, nor ethical. On the contrary, they were mainly materialistic as the Capitalistic system of Europe deemed the emancipation of slaves as a way towards turning them into more skillful workers who might better serve the capitalistic system goals. Slaves became – according to economic feasibility criteria – a liability and a burden on the capital surplus which was adorned by the materialistic system of that time.

Now, let us take a closer look at a real example of the attempts made by the west more than a thousand years following the advent of Islam; namely, the American experience. Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865), the 16th President of the United States (1861-1865), who led the Union during the Civil War, emancipated slaves in the South in 1863.[3]

Unfortunately, Lincoln forgot that freedom should be “taken”, not “bestowed”. Indeed, slaves cannot be emancipated by means of a governmental decree or a legislative law. Let us take a look at that experience through three points to be elaborated below:

Freeing the slaves externally: All what Lincoln did was to free the slaves externally without attempting first to dissolve the differences between various casts of the society. He failed to create a humane ethical system that might raise the value of the slave and normalize his relationship with the so-called master before attempting to emancipate him.

Overlooking the nature of slaves: The slaves freed by Lincoln – externally – via legislation, could not bear up with the “bestowed” freedom so that they pleaded for their masters to take them back as slaves as they were in the near past. This is because those slaves were not emancipated internally or from within.

In addition, the caste differences, racism and the inferiority look from the whites to the blacks were still there. All these drove the slaves not to think of their own freedom and dignity, but of going back to their previous humiliating conditions. Psychologically speaking, this is normal and well expected. As life is habit and the conditions in which one lives determine his emotions and shape his feelings and the whole psychological system.

Truly, the psychological nature of a slave differs from that of a free person. This is not because a slave is regarded as a different race as was thought by some in old times; rather, it is because living in the shade of slavery causes the slave’s psychological systems to adapt to the accompanying conditions. As this causes his obedience system to develop to its utmost while the responsibility and shouldering consequences systems to wear away in a remarkable manner.

Overlooking the nature of society and surrounding conditions: Lincoln overlooked the nature of society and what might take place in the future especially in times of war. This made Lincoln himself, as soon as the war broke out, issue a decree forbidding the emancipation of slaves for fear of internal disturbances and inability of the slaves’ owners to bear up with the damage their interests might suffer from, a matter which means a total paralysis of society in war time. Accordingly, Lincoln’s good intentions neither helped him understand or deal with the psychology of the slaves, nor did they help him during war time and thus he was finally accused of being self-contradictory.

Islam and abolishing slavery

Islam came while slavery was a well-established and recognized institution all over the world. Slaves were a current economic and social commodity with no sign of denial or opposition by anyone. They used to work at fields while fettered in heavy chains to prevent them from escaping. They were given a minimal amount of food just to keep them barely alive. They were forced to work as if they were beasts. Lashes were harshly used to discipline as well as punish them. They slept in dark, bad-smelling cells where insects and chains attached to their necks and feet were their sole companions.

Islam came while social injustices such as ethnic and caste discrimination were prevalent. At that time, several sources used to feed the “river of slavery” every day adding new slaves and bondmaids to the already existing deprived ones as follows:

1. War: Regardless of whether it was legitimate or not; prisoners of war were automatically turned into slaves be them males or females.

2. Kidnapping: As kidnapped persons were turned into slaves and female slaves.

3. Committing serious crimes: The perpetrators of such heinous crimes as as murdering, theft and fornication were enslaved as their punishment.

4. Inability to pay off debts: The owing poor were turned into slaves by the well-off creditors.

5. A father’s authority over his own children gave him the right to sell any of them to others and thus let them fall into thralldom.

6. One’s authority over himself as one could sell himself to others as well.

7. The progeny of all the above becomes slaves even if the parent was freed or emancipated.

While the sources that fed the river of slavery then were gaining momentum and recognition, the gates of freedom were either blocked or were too tight to let anyone get rid of slavery.

Recognizing that reality, Islam adopted a middle way of reformation that aimed at the emancipation of slaves, and abolishment of the slavery system in a realistic revolutionary though gradual manner. In so doing, neither ignoring the reality, nor acknowledging it in a way that may consolidate it or strengthen its already existing foundations, Islam adopted what follows:

Next:
1. Drying the sources out
2. Widening the avenues of emancipation
3. Enjoining good treatment

Read-on on p6.....

[quote author=Empiree post=30955401][/quote]

what I think? Ok, where do I start...

1) I think that you have hijacked this thread with preaching and attempts to shove your belief down people's throat, and I'm not too happy about it

2) blasphemy exists only in the framework of your belief. Since I don't believe in any of these gods I don't see how my words can insult them, because according to me they don't exist

3) it's like you are unable to think outside the box of your own indoctrination, else you'd know this.

4) When I say the gods are created in man's image I don't mean how they LOOK. I mean the character traits that are attributed to them. Can you seriously deny that the Christian god and Allah (as presented to us in the "holy" books) appear to be human (and rather archaic human) in the way they argue, judge, and act?

5) why exactly would anyone believe in a god that you can't see, can't hear, can't smell, can't feel and can't contact? The more reasonable conclusion is that such a god simply doesn't exist

6) one can't "hate" something that doesn't exist. I don't "hate" any god because I don't believe any of them exists. I do hate organised religion and its ugly excesses though.

7) since this thread has been hijacked by a discussion about whether christians or muslims are slave traders: kindly look at reality. Both are, TODAY. Nigerian christians sell women as sex slaves to Europe into forced prostitution, and muslim Mauritania is still deeply into slavery, just as an example. Seriously, what is this crap about one religion blaming the other for whatever each of them does? How does it matter who did it first?! Fact is: both did it, and both still do. It's so ridiculous!

Liekiller:


1) [s]I think that you have hijacked this thread with preaching and attempts to shove your belief down people's throat[/s], and I'm not too happy about it

Humm, not at all. if you paid close attention, you could've seen these christian fellas actually hijacked your thread by constantly trying to paint Islam for "inventing" slavery. Okay, I wont go any further from here for the purpose of this thread. I will just complete my replies and fold my arms. Fair enough?.

Empiree:
Humm, not at all. if you paid close attention, you could've seen these christian fellas actually hijacked your thread by constantly trying to paint Islam for "inventing" slavery. Okay, I wont go any further from here for the purpose of this thread. I will just complete my replies and fold my arms. Fair enough?.

By "you" I meant everybody involved Do complete your replies by all means and have a very good night!

Liekiller:


By "you" I meant everybody involved Do complete your replies by all means and have a very good night!

Okay, got you. No problem. Have a sweet night.

Empiree:
No, thats not the case. Remember i said earlier that Quran recognized Arabs were into some sorts of slave business before the advent of prophet muhammad(saw). Islam slowly abolished it. For instance, the treatment of slave prior to advent of islam was different when Muhammad proclaimed his prophethood. Bilal ibn Rabah is typical example of this. A slave who became the first man to call to prayer. He was also scholar.

The slavery system which had plagued the whole world upon the advent of Islam. Any attempt to suddenly prevent such a deep-rooted system from various societies would then have caused the social, political, as well as economic life to have been vehemently shaken.

Consequently, the divine wisdom was to work towards restricting the sources of slavery or blocking the avenues leading to enslavement whenever possible. In the same vein, as Islam restricted the streams feeding slavery, it expanded its drains in a way that can be understood as a gradual act of cancelling.

Below are just few of Muhammad's advice for slave owners....and read further from my reply to tru2god

Your servants and your slaves are your brothers. Anyone who has slaves should give them from what he eats and wears. He should not charge them with work beyond their capabilities. If you must set them to hard work, in any case I advise you to help them.
Source: Bukhari, Iman, 22; Adab, 44; Muslim, Iman, 38–40; Abu Dawud, Adab, 124

---

Ali reported that the last words of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, were: "The prayer! The prayer! Fear Allah concerning your slaves ! "
Source: Al-Adab al-Mufrad Al-Bukhari , Nr. 158.

---

Jabir ibn 'Abdullah said, "The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, advised that slaves should be well-treated. He said, 'Feed them from what you eat and clothe them from what you wear. Do not punish what Allah has created.' "

Source: Al-Adab al-Mufrad Al-Bukhari , Nr. 188.


Sallam ibn 'Amr reported from one of the Companions of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Your slaves are your brothers, so treat him well. Ask for their help in what is too much for you and help them in what is too much for them."

Source: Al-Adab al-Mufrad Al-Bukhari , Nr. 190.

Abu Hurayra reported that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "The slave has his food and clothing. Do not burden a slave with work which he is incapable of doing."
Source: Al-Adab al-Mufrad Al-Bukhari , Nr. 192.

---

Not one of you should [ when introducing someone ] say ‘This is my slave’ , ‘This is my concubine’. He should call them ‘my daughter’ or ‘my son’ or ‘my brother’.

Source: Ibn Hanbal, Musnad, 2 ,4

"The masters were obliged not to put slaves under hardship; slaves were not to be tortured, abused or treated unjustly. They could marry among “themselves with their master's permission - or with free men or women ! They could appear as witnesses and participate with free men in all “affairs. Many of them were appointed as governors, commanders of army and administrators. In the eyes of Islam, a pious slave has precedence over “an impious free man." Source: Al-Tabataba'i, Tafsir ( vol.16, pp. 338-358 )

The Prophet, had stipulated in his "last pilgrimage" speech:

"And your slaves ! see that you feed them such food as you eat yourselves and dress them what you yourself wear. And if they commit a “mistake which you are not inclined to forgive then sell them, for they are the servants of Allah and are not to be tormented! "

Source: Ibn Sa'd, op. cit., vol. II:1, p. 133

"Serve God, and join not any partners with Him ; and do good to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours “who are strangers, the Companion by your side, the way-farer (ye meet), And what your right hands possess : for God loveth not the arrogant, the “vainglorious" Surah An Nisa, verse 36

The phrase "What your right hands possess" refers to one’s slaves (male and female). Allah swt ordains the kind treatment of slaves in the same verse where He commands man to worship Him and to treat his parents, relations and neighbors generously, and this signifies the importance of this ruling.

Definition of "slave" in Islam is different from common meaning today. Unfortunately, we use same word, slave. We long derailed this thread. Op's target was about Christianity though

So hadith is now reliable when it comes slaves matter but you will quickly dismiss it if we quote aspects that are unfavourable to the image of islam. That is double standard.

The fact still remains that islam actively involves and supported slavery.

true2god:
So hadith is now reliable when it comes slaves matter but you will quickly dismiss it if we quote aspects that are unfavourable to the image of islam. That is double standard.

The fact still remains that islam actively involves and supported slavery.

@ Empiree, can you explain how and when Islam abolished slavery using the quran. I don't want us to dabble into hadith because I will give you a lot of hadith that you wont like to read, so that you dont tell me it is not authentic.

Empiree:
No, thats not the case. Remember i said earlier that Quran recognized Arabs were into some sorts of slave business before the advent of prophet muhammad(saw). Islam slowly abolished it. For instance, the treatment of slave prior to advent of islam was different when Muhammad proclaimed his prophethood. Bilal ibn Rabah is typical example of this. A slave who became the first man to call to prayer. He was also scholar.

The slavery system which had plagued the whole world upon the advent of Islam. Any attempt to suddenly prevent such a deep-rooted system from various societies would then have caused the social, political, as well as economic life to have been vehemently shaken.

Consequently, the divine wisdom was to work towards restricting the sources of slavery or blocking the avenues leading to enslavement whenever possible. In the same vein, as Islam restricted the streams feeding slavery, it expanded its drains in a way that can be understood as a gradual act of cancelling.

Below are just few of Muhammad's advice for slave owners....and read further from my reply to tru2god

Your servants and your slaves are your brothers. Anyone who has slaves should give them from what he eats and wears. He should not charge them with work beyond their capabilities. If you must set them to hard work, in any case I advise you to help them.
Source: Bukhari, Iman, 22; Adab, 44; Muslim, Iman, 38–40; Abu Dawud, Adab, 124

---

Ali reported that the last words of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, were: "The prayer! The prayer! Fear Allah concerning your slaves ! "
Source: Al-Adab al-Mufrad Al-Bukhari , Nr. 158.

---

Jabir ibn 'Abdullah said, "The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, advised that slaves should be well-treated. He said, 'Feed them from what you eat and clothe them from what you wear. Do not punish what Allah has created.' "

Source: Al-Adab al-Mufrad Al-Bukhari , Nr. 188.


Sallam ibn 'Amr reported from one of the Companions of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Your slaves are your brothers, so treat him well. Ask for their help in what is too much for you and help them in what is too much for them."

Source: Al-Adab al-Mufrad Al-Bukhari , Nr. 190.

Abu Hurayra reported that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "The slave has his food and clothing. Do not burden a slave with work which he is incapable of doing."
Source: Al-Adab al-Mufrad Al-Bukhari , Nr. 192.

---

Not one of you should [ when introducing someone ] say ‘This is my slave’ , ‘This is my concubine’. He should call them ‘my daughter’ or ‘my son’ or ‘my brother’.

Source: Ibn Hanbal, Musnad, 2 ,4

"The masters were obliged not to put slaves under hardship; slaves were not to be tortured, abused or treated unjustly. They could marry among “themselves with their master's permission - or with free men or women ! They could appear as witnesses and participate with free men in all “affairs. Many of them were appointed as governors, commanders of army and administrators. In the eyes of Islam, a pious slave has precedence over “an impious free man." Source: Al-Tabataba'i, Tafsir ( vol.16, pp. 338-358 )

The Prophet, had stipulated in his "last pilgrimage" speech:

"And your slaves ! see that you feed them such food as you eat yourselves and dress them what you yourself wear. And if they commit a “mistake which you are not inclined to forgive then sell them, for they are the servants of Allah and are not to be tormented! "

Source: Ibn Sa'd, op. cit., vol. II:1, p. 133

"Serve God, and join not any partners with Him ; and do good to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours “who are strangers, the Companion by your side, the way-farer (ye meet), And what your right hands possess : for God loveth not the arrogant, the “vainglorious" Surah An Nisa, verse 36

The phrase "What your right hands possess" refers to one’s slaves (male and female). Allah swt ordains the kind treatment of slaves in the same verse where He commands man to worship Him and to treat his parents, relations and neighbors generously, and this signifies the importance of this ruling.

Definition of "slave" in Islam is different from common meaning today. Unfortunately, we use same word, slave. We long derailed this thread. Op's target was about Christianity though

I almost believed you until I noticed that you hardly quoted the Quran. Now, I haven't read the Quran or Hadith and so, I have to take your word on it. Remember that Ifeann and co, have quoted from the same hadith which you and others claim to be unreliable.

This is just my opinion. You almost convinced me.

AllNaijaBlogger:



I almost believed you until I noticed that you hardly quoted the Quran. Now, I haven't read the Quran or Hadith and so, I have to take your word on it. Remember that Ifeann and co, have quoted from the same hadith which you and others claim to be unreliable.

This is just my opinion. You almost convinced me.

Lol, there is no Quran verse(s) that ordered slavery either. Unlike yours. Quran in most cases respond and carefully dealt with those fellas who owned slaves at the time. Is like trying to condemn a thug from smoking Igbo(weed). You dont do that overnight. Slowly but surely is the way to go. That's why it's more practical aspect(hadith) which the prophet went through 23yrs period with instruction (from Quran) on how to deal with them.Those Quran verses are scattered. You can't deny slavery existed before him. They are dealt with different times.

No, ifean was just pasting endlessly. Some of them are correct but she doesnt understand them and they are plain and clear. Some of them need interpretation. Some are simply bogus. But it doesn't make sense arguing with a barking dog. That's her case. She's simply not a scholar of islam even though she claimed to quote from Islamic sources. That's irrelevant. She's merely threading religion NOT knowing it. I see that flaws with her. What she was attempting was scholarly works not copying and pasting and reading. Besides, Quran is not history book where every Tom, Dick and Harry writes whatever they want like yours

Slavery was never easy to eliminate

Empiree:
Lol, there is no Quran verse(s) that ordered slavery either. Unlike yours. Quran in most cases respond and carefully dealt with those fellas who owned slaves at the time. Is like trying to condemn a thug from smoking Igbo(weed). You dont do that overnight. Slowly but surely is the way to go. That's why it's more practical aspect(hadith) which the prophet went through 23yrs period with instruction (from Quran) on how to deal with them.Those Quran verses are scattered. You can't deny slavery existed before him. They are dealt with different times.

No, ifean was just pasting endlessly. Some of them are correct but she doesnt understand them and they are plain and clear. Some of them need interpretation. Some are simply bogus. But it doesn't make sense arguing with a barking dog. That's her case. She's simply not a scholar of islam even though she claimed to quote from Islamic sources. That's irrelevant. That's merely threading religion NOT knowing. I see that flaw with her.

What are you saying? Ifeann and others quoted directly quoted from the hadiths. You can claim that she and the others are not muslim scholars and that their interpretations are wrong BUT some of those hadith verses were clearly problematic. These problematic hadith were explained away by your fellow muslims as "weak" and "fabricated".

If you can claim that the very hadith is fabricated when it doesn't suit you, how can you then use it for an argument that suits you?

If I remember correctly, Ifeann posted a verse from the Quran about sex with slaves. I do not remember the verse but she linked to it. I think it is there. So when you avoid using the Quran or tell me that the Quran has nothing on slaves, I cannot trust you.

Religion and fundimentalism are separate. Religion is balance & spiritual.

AllNaijaBlogger:



What are you saying? Ifeann and others quoted directly quoted from the hadiths. You can claim that she and the others are not muslim scholars and that their interpretations are wrong BUT some of those hadith verses were clearly problematic. These problematic hadith were explained away by your fellow muslims as "weak" and "fabricated".

If you can claim that the very hadith is fabricated when it doesn't suit you, how can you then use it for an argument that suits you?

If I remember correctly, Ifeann posted a verse from the Quran about sex with slaves. I do not remember the verse but she linked to it. I think it is there. So when you avoid using the Quran or tell me that the Quran has nothing on slaves, I cannot trust you.

You not serious at all. I seem to get where you are going. Fact is, clearly, clearly, in our modern time, no doubt slavery exist globally in another form usually through IMF, who controls is Judeo/Christian folks. Check naira to #217-$1. Islam responsible for that?. You dont think. No, forget about ifea now, that's not a credible fellow.

Help yourself... goodnight

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5gJ4e0bV1o#t=33

AllNaijaBlogger:



I almost believed you until I noticed that you hardly quoted the Quran. Now, I haven't read the Quran or Hadith and so, I have to take your word on it. Remember that Ifeann and co, have quoted from the same hadith which you and others claim to be unreliable.

This is just my opinion. You almost convinced me.

Hi buddy ... Read the quran online for yourself
There are hundreds of verses from the qur'an and hadiths the encourage and promote slavery..
Empiree is using a concept called al taqiyyah to decieve the ignorant..

I won't quote hadith verses. . Google them from pro islamic sources And see it for yourself from muslim websites. ..but I will quote a little quran verses I have come across...the Qur'an verses on slaves usually encourage sex with slaves. ..in the hadiths Mohammed encourages breeding slaves, he loved sex with slaves and he traded 2 black slaves to get one arab slave..

Qur'an (4:24)-"And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives/slaves) whom your right hands possess." Even sex with married slaves is permissible.

Qur'an (8:69)-"But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good" A reference to war booty, of which slaves were a part

Qur'an (33:50)-"O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses(captive/slaves) out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"

Qur'an (23:5-6)-"..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives/slaves) whom their right hands possess..." This verse permits the slave-owner to have sex with his slaves.

U can See also Qur'an (70:29-30). The Quran is a small book, so if Allah used valuable space to repeat the same point four times, then sex slavery must be very important to him.

Qur'an (24:32)-"And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves..." Breeding slaves based on fitness.


Qur'an (2:178)-"O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female." The message of this verse, which prescribes the rules of retaliation for murder, is that all humans arenotcreated equal. The human value of a slave is less than that of a free person (and a woman's worth is also distinguished from that of a man's)

Empiree:
You not serious at all. I seem to get where you are going. Fact is, clearly, clearly, in our modern time, no doubt slavery exist globally in another form usually through IMF, who controls is Judeo/Christian folks. Check naira to #217-$1. Islam responsible for that?. You dont think. No, forget about ifea now, that's not a credible fellow.

I see. You were caught preaching dubiously and you are now running away. You are now claiming that the IMF is a slave master because of christianity.

If I were you, I would take time to explain my religion properly. You were using dishonest tactics by avoiding your own Quran when preaching to a non-muslim and using the very same Hadith which you claim to be "fabricated".


I don't know much about Islam but I know much about hypocrisy/dishonesty. Please, there are better muslims that can preach honestlly. I have told you that I do not hate Islam. I find it to be interesting, it is just that some few muslims like yourself do not go about preaching it wisely. I think Ennin, Usermane and Tbaba are good examples of muslim preachers.

Empiree:
You not serious at all. I seem to get where you are going. Fact is, clearly, clearly, in our modern time, no doubt slavery exist globally in another form usually through IMF, who controls is Judeo/Christian folks. Check naira to #217-$1. Islam responsible for that?. You dont think. No, forget about ifea now, that's not a credible fellow.

Help yourself... goodnight

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5gJ4e0bV1o#t=33

Falling oil prices is responsible for the loss of currency value of the naira. .. it's simple economics. ..

U Muslims always look for who to blame. .

If its not the jewiah zionist... is the Americans or that innocent jewish community. Blame blame blame. ..

AllNaijaBlogger:



I see. You were caught preaching dubiously and you are now running away. You are now claiming that the IMF is a slave master because of christianity.

If I were you, I would take time to explain my religion properly. You were using dishonest tactics by avoiding your own Quran when preaching to a non-muslim and using the very same Hadith which you claim to be "fabricated".


I don't know much about Islam but I know much about hypocrisy/dishonesty. Please, there are better muslims that can preach honestlly. I have told you that I do not hate Islam. I find it to be interesting, it is just that some few muslims like yourself do not go about preaching it wisely. I think Ennin, Usermane and Tbaba are good examples of muslim preachers.

Www. Thereligionofpeace. Com
Www.answering-islam.org
Google wiki islam as well

AllNaijaBlogger:

I don't know much about Islam but I know much about hypocrisy/dishonesty.

Honestly, this is reason you need to shut up. Imagine atheists quoting endlessly from bible's justification of slavery by quoting whatever. It makes sense to them but as christian you will try to defend it, isn't ?.

I can go on and quote bible and proof it supports slavery regardless of your defense. But i have better sense than that . There's reason op opened this thread because she recognized clearly that christian colonization of Africa has greater disadvantages on Africa than anything else. Because your conscience hunts you is the reason you people attack islam here.

And no, i wasn't running away. it's late here.

parisbookaddict:

l

honestly you need lots of education. Hope you will ponder and watch this educative video

@ Empiree,

You are seriosly being disingenuous. Both saudi arabia and yemen stopped slavery in 1962 (due to pressure from the british), oman abolished slavery in 1970, mauritania stopped slavery in 1905.

However countries like chad, niger, mali and sudan still practise slavery till date and all the countries I mentioned as muslim\muslim-dominated countries.

No single quranic verse nor hadith abolished slavery. The Islamic principle is this, if a slaves becomes a muslim, the owner is expected (with time) to grant him\her his freedom, but is the slave does not convert to islam he\she remains a slave. There is no single record that a muslim slave owner freed hid slave who didn't convert to islam.

And as a religios policy, a muslim is never expected to enslave a fellow muslim hence it became a rational option for virtually all slaves under a muslim master to convert to islam in order to get a fresh air.

davidylan:


my brother, long time. I pop in here once in a while now. More responsibilities means less time to devote to NL.

All the best man, may God bless your hustle.

Empiree:
honestly you need lots of education. Hope you will ponder and watch this educative video

Clown...
Do u lack the intelligence to explain it yourself...keep running to those lying imams

true2god:
@ Empiree,

You are seriosly being disingenuous. Both saudi arabia and yemen stopped slavery in 1962 (due to pressure from the british), oman abolished slavery in 1970, mauritania stopped slavery in 1905.

However countries like chad, niger, mali and sudan still practise slavery till date and all the countries I mentioned as muslim\muslim-dominated countries.

No single quranic verse nor hadith abolished slavery. The Islamic principle is this, if a slaves becomes a muslim, the owner is expected (with time) to grant him\her his freedom, but is the slave does not convert to islam he\she remains a slave. There is no single record that a muslim slave owner freed hid slave who didn't convert to islam.

And as a religios policy, a muslim is never expected to enslave a fellow muslim hence it became a rational option for virtually all slaves under a muslim master to convert to islam in order to get a fresh air.

The muslim empiree seems to want to Abrogate his allah's approval of slavery

true2god:
@ Empiree,

[size=3pt]You are seriosly being disingenuous. Both saudi arabia and yemen stopped slavery in 1962 (due to pressure from the british), oman abolished slavery in 1970, mauritania stopped slavery in 1905.

However countries like chad, niger, mali and sudan still practise slavery till date and all the countries I mentioned as muslim\muslim-dominated countries.

No single quranic verse nor hadith abolished slavery. The Islamic principle is this, if a slaves becomes a muslim, the owner is expected (with time) to grant him\her his freedom, but is the slave does not convert to islam he\she remains a slave. There is no single record that a muslim slave owner freed hid slave who didn't convert to islam.

And as a religios policy, a muslim is never expected to enslave a fellow muslim hence it became a rational option for virtually all slaves under a muslim master to convert to islam in order to get a fresh air.[/size]

Christian views on slavery are varied both regionally and historically. Slavery in various forms has been a part of the social environment for much of Christianity's history, spanning well over eighteen centuries. In the early years of Christianity, slavery was a normal feature of the economy and society in the Roman Empire, and this persisted in different forms and with regional differences well into the Middle Ages.[1] Most Christian figures in that early period such as Saint Augustine, accepted slavery as an inevitability whereas some, such as Saint Patrick (a former slave), were opposed to it. Both the Old Testament and New Testament treat slavery as a given, to the extent of (in the case of the Old Testament) laying down regulations for its "just" practice. Historically this has presented a challenge for Christians advocating against slavery. Generally speaking, up until the 18th century Christianity accepted slavery, but had no public opinion for or against it. Eighteen centuries after the birth of Christianity (in the context of a particularly savage and rapacious slave system), the abolition movement took shape across the globe, groups who advocated slavery's abolition struggled to use Christian teachings in support of their positions. Instead they turned from the specific references to the practice in the tradition to a more general appeal to concepts such as 'the spirit of Christ', and textual argumentation.[2]
The issue of Christianity and slavery is therefore one that has seen intense conflict. In the eighteenth and nineteenth century debates in the UK and the US passages in the Bible were used by both pro-slavery advocates and abolitionists to support their respective views.

The video provides proper understanding of "slavery" in islam. And what's the countries you mentioned up there got to do with islam?. I dont know why you people trying to cover up slave trade established the name of Christianity that affected the whole. Too late for you to come up with bogus excuses. You basically trying to indict islam. smh for you man

Empiree:

Christian views on slavery are varied both regionally and historically. Slavery in various forms has been a part of the social environment for much of Christianity's history, spanning well over eighteen centuries. In the early years of Christianity, slavery was a normal feature of the economy and society in the Roman Empire, and this persisted in different forms and with regional differences well into the Middle Ages.[1] Most Christian figures in that early period such as Saint Augustine, accepted slavery as an inevitability whereas some, such as Saint Patrick (a former slave), were opposed to it. Both the Old Testament and New Testament treat slavery as a given, to the extent of (in the case of the Old Testament) laying down regulations for its "just" practice. Historically this has presented a challenge for Christians advocating against slavery. Generally speaking, up until the 18th century Christianity accepted slavery, but had no public opinion for or against it. Eighteen centuries after the birth of Christianity (in the context of a particularly savage and rapacious slave system), the abolition movement took shape across the globe, groups who advocated slavery's abolition struggled to use Christian teachings in support of their positions. Instead they turned from the specific references to the practice in the tradition to a more general appeal to concepts such as 'the spirit of Christ', and textual argumentation.[2]
The issue of Christianity and slavery is therefore one that has seen intense conflict. In the eighteenth and nineteenth century debates in the UK and the US passages in the Bible were used by both pro-slavery advocates and abolitionists to support their respective views.

The video provides proper understanding of "slavery" in islam. And what's the countries you mentioned up there got to do with islam?. I dont know why you people trying to cover up slave trade established the name of Christianity that affected the whole. Too late for you to come up with bogus excuses. You basically trying to indict islam. smh for you man

All christain majority countries have anti-slavery laws.. inculding atheist countries such as china....however islamic countries do NOT have anti-slavery laws because it against the quran..the latest islamic calipjate ISIS TRADES SLAVES and sex slaves...Empiree ur defense for islam is both comical and appalling. .