Empiree:
Evidence......please!

The earliest copy of the quran is dated to 19 years after the death of the prophet.

http://irfi.org/articles/articles_401_450/oldest_quran_in_the_world.htm

Empiree:
Evidence......please!

I'm still waiting for your evidence since you're wide awake.

AllNaijaBlogger:




The earliest copy of the quran is dated to 19 years after the death of the prophet.

http://irfi.org/articles/articles_401_450/oldest_quran_in_the_world.htm

It was compiled not written as you claimed

To prevent disputes about which verses should be considered divinely inspired, Othman had this definitive version compiled. It was completed in the year 651, only 19 years after Muhammad’s death.

Something not available or not in written cannot be compiled, is'nt it?

Rilwayne001:



It was compiled not written as you claimed



Something not available or not in written cannot be compiled, is'nt it?

Hmmmn so it was othman who decided which hadith that would be compiled as part of the quoran. Interesting! Yet some illiterates would open their stinking mouths and tell us the bible is corrupt.

PastorKun:


Hmmmn so it was [u] othman who decided which hadith that would be compiled as part of the quoran. Interesting! Yet some illiterates would open their stinking mouths and tell us the bible is corrupt.

Uthman is one of the companion of the prophet (pbuh).

Can you say the same for Constantine?

Rilwayne001:



It was compiled not written as you claimed



Something not available or not in written cannot be compiled, is'nt it?

Well, one would ask why it took 19 years after the death of the prophet to compile a definitive Quran. Keep in mind that there is no solid evidence that the Quran was written before the prophet's death.


Also, kindly consider that your friends of the prophet were still collecting information/revelation from the prophet till his dying day. So that would make it impossible for the Quran to be ready before his death.

Rilwayne001:


Uthman is one of the companion of the prophet (pbuh).

Can you say the same for Constantine?

Judas was also the companion of Christ. Think deeply

Rilwayne001:


Uthman is one of the companion of the prophet (pbuh).

Can you say the same for Constantine?

Even if he was a companion, the credibility of your prophet is yet to be established. We all know a book that is directly responsible for the death and misery of millions since it was written cannot possibly be from God.

AllNaijaBlogger:

Well, one would ask why it took 19 years after the death of the prophet to compile a definitive Quran.

One thing that ought to be kept in mind regarding the preservation of the Qur'an is that it was done more through memory than through writing. There was and is great wisdom in this. We see that in the case of earlier Prophets whose teachings were not committed to memory were lost. Sometimes the invaders destroyed the manuscripts and sometimes the scribes intentionally or intentionally made mistakes in the case of the bible (OT and NT) . So to avoid the same to happen to the Qur'an more emphasis was laid on its memorization though it was put into writing as well.

Keep in mind that there is no solid evidence that the Quran was written before the prophet's death.

This is a blatant lie.

The Qur'an was written down and this was done right during the life time of the Holy Prophet (Pbuh). And all the later masahif were based on what was dictated by the Holy Prophet himself.

Th Prophet (Pbuh) had more than 40 companions who usually worked as scribes. To mention a few they include Abu Bakr, 'Umar, 'Uthman, 'Ali, 'Abdullah bin Masud, Talha, Sa'd, Huzaifa, Ubayy bin Ka'b, Abdullah bin Abbas, Abdullah bin Zubar, 'Abdullah bin Sai'b, Zaid bin Thabit, Abu Hurairah, Abu Darda, Ma'az bin Jabal, Anas bin Malik, Abu Musa Al-'Ashari, Mu'awiyyah, Sayyidah 'Aisha, Sayyidah Umm Salmah, Sayyidah Hafsa and many more.


Zaid bin Thabit, one of the chief scribes relates: "I used to write down the revelation for the Holy Prophet, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. When the revelation came to him he felt intense heat and drops of perspiration used to roll down his body like pearls. When this state was over I used to fetch a shoulder bone or a piece of something else. He used to go on dictating and I used to write it down. When I finished writing the sheer weight of transcription gave me the feeling that my leg would break and I would not be able to walk anymore. Anyhow when I finished writing, he would say, 'Read!' and I would read it back to him. If there was an omission or error he used to correct it and then let it be brought before the
people." Mu'jam Al-Tabarani Al-Awst, Hadith 1913. Dar al-Haramain, Cairo, 1415 AH

This^^ is a categorical proof that Companions used to write Qur'an in the supervision of the Prophet (pbuh) and got it checked from him before making it public.

Also there are proofs that during the life time of the Prophet (pbuh) the written manuscripts of Qur'an were there. In fact writing of the Qur'an was in practice from the early days of Islam as evident from the incident leading to conversion of one of the closest companions, ‘Umar bin al-Khattab, when he found his sister and brother-in-law with a parchment on which the verses of Surah Taha (chapter 20) were written. Sunan al-Darqutni, Hadith 441, Al-Resalah Publications, Beirut, 2004 Al-Zayl’i said it is a good (jayyid ) narration. See Nasab al-Raya (vol.1 p.199 Muhammad 'Awwama ed.)

There are some other traditions which indicate that Companions had written copies of complete or incomplete Quran. For example;

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: “Allah's Messenger forbade the people to travel to a hostile country carrying (copies of) the Quran.” Sahih Bukhari, Book 52, Hadith 233

Obviously these traditions are categorical evidence that the Companions used to have written copies of the Qur’an even during the life time of the Holy Prophet and that it was not something unusual.

Likewise, there is evidence for the manuscripts of the Qur’an in the instruction of th Prophet to Hakim bin Hizam when he sent him to Yemen as a governor. He said: “Do not touch the Qur’an except when you are in the state of purity.” Mustadrak al-Hakim, Hadith 6051, Dar al-Kotob al-
Ilmiyya, Beirut, 1990 Al-Hakim classified it as Sahih. Al-Dhahabi agreed with him.

Also It was narrated that Abu Hurairah said: “The Messenger of Allah said: ‘ The rewards of the good deeds that will reach a believer after his death are: Knowledge which he taught and spread; a righteous son whom he leaves behind; a copy of the Qur’an that he leaves as a legacy; a mosque that he built; a house that he built for wayfarers; a canal that he dug; or charity that he gave during his lifetime when he was in good health. These deeds will reach him after his death. Sunan Ibn Majah, Book 1, Chapter 20, Hadith 242. Classified as Hasan by Albani

I can go on and on like that but lemme stop here.

Also, kindly consider that your friends of the prophet were still collecting information/revelation from the prophet till his dying day. So that would make it impossible for the Quran to be ready before his death.

My first point clears the above.

AllNaijaBlogger:



Judas was also the companion of Christ. Think deeply

And what does that supposed to mean? indeed judas was a companion of jesus that later betrayed him, was constantine a companion of jesus to have decide which is to be canonized as the gospel of jesus?

I'm still expecting you guys to counter empiree's claim concerning Mark, Mattew, Luke and John.

Still coming on the council of nicean.

AllNaijaBlogger:




The earliest copy of the quran is dated to 19 years after the death of the prophet.

http://irfi.org/articles/articles_401_450/oldest_quran_in_the_world.htm

Bro, what's the difference between TRANSCRIBE and COMPILATION?

Who's Uthman....do you know him?

Even this website, despite questionable, does not digress from saying Qur'an was written down in lifetime of Muhammad (peace be upon him). You have no idea. I don't think you understood this article. Nice try but read again.

PastorKun:


[s] Even if he was a companion, the credibility of your prophet is yet to be established. We all know a book that is directly responsible for the death and misery of millions since it was written cannot possibly be from God. [/s]

<<< sorry, I'll have to ignore you.

Rilwayne001:


One thing that ought to be kept in mind regarding the preservation of the Qur'an is that it was done more through memory than through writing. There was and is great wisdom in this. We see that in the case of earlier Prophets whose teachings were not committed to memory were lost. Sometimes the invaders destroyed the manuscripts and sometimes the scribes intentionally or intentionally made mistakes in the case of the bible (OT and NT) . So to avoid the same to happen to the Qur'an more emphasis was laid on its memorization though it was put into writing as well.



This is a blatant lie.

The Qur'an was written down and this was done right during the life time of the Holy Prophet (Pbuh). And all the later masahif were based on what was dictated by the Holy Prophet himself.

Th Prophet (Pbuh) had more than 40 companions who usually worked as scribes. To mention a few they include Abu Bakr, 'Umar, 'Uthman, 'Ali, 'Abdullah bin Masud, Talha, Sa'd, Huzaifa, Ubayy bin Ka'b, Abdullah bin Abbas, Abdullah bin Zubar, 'Abdullah bin Sai'b, Zaid bin Thabit, Abu Hurairah, Abu Darda, Ma'az bin Jabal, Anas bin Malik, Abu Musa Al-'Ashari, Mu'awiyyah, Sayyidah 'Aisha, Sayyidah Umm Salmah, Sayyidah Hafsa and many more.


Zaid bin Thabit, one of the chief scribes relates: "I used to write down the revelation for the Holy Prophet, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. When the revelation came to him he felt intense heat and drops of perspiration used to roll down his body like pearls. When this state was over I used to fetch a shoulder bone or a piece of something else. He used to go on dictating and I used to write it down. When I finished writing the sheer weight of transcription gave me the feeling that my leg would break and I would not be able to walk anymore. Anyhow when I finished writing, he would say, 'Read!' and I would read it back to him. If there was an omission or error he used to correct it and then let it be brought before the
people." Mu'jam Al-Tabarani Al-Awst, Hadith 1913. Dar al-Haramain, Cairo, 1415 AH

This^^ is a categorical proof that Companions used to write Qur'an in the supervision of the Prophet (pbuh) and got it checked from him before making it public.

Also there are proofs that during the life time of the Prophet (pbuh) the written manuscripts of Qur'an were there. In fact writing of the Qur'an was in practice from the early days of Islam as evident from the incident leading to conversion of one of the closest companions, ‘Umar bin al-Khattab, when he found his sister and brother-in-law with a parchment on which the verses of Surah Taha (chapter 20) were written. Sunan al-Darqutni, Hadith 441, Al-Resalah Publications, Beirut, 2004 Al-Zayl’i said it is a good (jayyid ) narration. See Nasab al-Raya (vol.1 p.199 Muhammad 'Awwama ed.)

There are some other traditions which indicate that Companions had written copies of complete or incomplete Quran. For example;

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: “Allah's Messenger forbade the people to travel to a hostile country carrying (copies of) the Quran.” Sahih Bukhari, Book 52, Hadith 233

Obviously these traditions are categorical evidence that the Companions used to have written copies of the Qur’an even during the life time of the Holy Prophet and that it was not something unusual.

Likewise, there is evidence for the manuscripts of the Qur’an in the instruction of th Prophet to Hakim bin Hizam when he sent him to Yemen as a governor. He said: “Do not touch the Qur’an except when you are in the state of purity.” Mustadrak al-Hakim, Hadith 6051, Dar al-Kotob al-
Ilmiyya, Beirut, 1990 Al-Hakim classified it as Sahih. Al-Dhahabi agreed with him.

Also It was narrated that Abu Hurairah said: “The Messenger of Allah said: ‘ The rewards of the good deeds that will reach a believer after his death are: Knowledge which he taught and spread; a righteous son whom he leaves behind; a copy of the Qur’an that he leaves as a legacy; a mosque that he built; a house that he built for wayfarers; a canal that he dug; or charity that he gave during his lifetime when he was in good health. These deeds will reach him after his death. Sunan Ibn Majah, Book 1, Chapter 20, Hadith 242. Classified as Hasan by Albani

I can go on and on like that but lemme stop here.




My first point clears the above.

Funny how all your claims are from spurious hadiths/testimonies/narrations that you will later claim are "weak" when they say something you do not agree with.


There is no exact day or date that the Quran was finally written.

Some of it was written during Muhammad's time but not all of it. If Muhammad saw the final quran, he would have mentioned it or at least yhhafith would have clearly stated that the prophet gave the quran to Uthman.



Also keep in mind that the prophet was an illiterate. An illiterate cannot express himself verbally or orally. Go and listen to the oration of any illiterate. You will understand it but writing it down will be a problem because you will correcting the grammar and sentence structure of the illiterate's speech.


If I recall, the Quran is written in classical Arabic which is even more difficult than standard Arabic. Does the writing of the Quran sound like that if an illiterate? No
The scribes and companions of the prophet must have added their own interpretations and better sentences to uplift Muhammad's uneducated speech.


Lastly, human memory is ver fallible. If I tell you that "I feel discombobulated, agitated and malaise", you might describe what I said the next day as "Allnaijablogger felt a headache and generally sick". Interpretations.



I hope you can see why I find this thread hypocritical. Your Quran comes from special origins- this means that you do not have the moral standing to point fingers at the origins or authors of the bible.

Empiree:
Bro, what's the difference between TRANSCRIBE and COMPILATION?

Who's Uthman....do you know him?

Even this website, despite questionable, does not digress from saying Qur'an was written down in lifetime of Muhammad (peace be upon him). You have no idea. I don't think you understood this article. Nice try but read again.

Every website is anti-islamic, I know.


Earliest Quran was compiled 19 years after Muhammad died. Why?

Furthermore, yes, I agree that some of it was written before the prophet's death but not all.

There are enough hadith that suggest alterations to the Quran.

Alos, remember that portions of the Quran were memorized before being written down. If Muhammad was alive then, why the need to memorise?
Why didnt Muhammad and Uthman sign off together on an official copy of the Quran?

Why so much division after his death?

Rilwayne001:


And what does that supposed to mean? indeed judas was a companion of jesus that later betrayed him, was constantine a companion of jesus to have decide which is to be canonized as the gospel of jesus?

I'm still expecting you guys to counter empiree's claim concerning Mark, Mattew, Luke and John.

Still coming on the council of nicean.

What claim about the gospels?

A companion is not a prophet. Uthman had as much right as anyone to compile a holy book. After all, people reject Ali (according to Lagoshia)as a companion.

I did my research after Empiree was playing me "wayo" with islam.

[quote author=AllNaijaBlogger post=31238806]

Every website is anti-islamic, I know.

Bro, did i make such statement in my earlier post?. I didnt even care if it was. I read it anyways

Earliest Quran was compiled 19 years after Muhammad died. Why?

Does compilation equates transcription? Bro, pls stop deceiving yourself now. I thought you might have heard in history that Quran was written down on several parchment by scribes. Monitored by the prophet himself in his lifetime. In other tradition(shia) they actually believe it was complied during prophet lifetime. Point here is it was written down in prophet's life, unlike your Bible. Get it?

Furthermore, yes, I agree that some of it was written before the prophet's death but not all.

No, everything was written down. Anything otherwise is false. The ONLY way you can prove me wrong is to present another Quran different from the ones we have. If you can't, your case will be dismissed.

There are enough hadith that suggest alterations to the Quran.

Hadith is like Bible of Mathew, Mark Luke and Paul where every Tom, Dick and Harry say whatever. Perhaps, I will like to see the hadith but becareful cuz I am well aware

Alos, remember that portions of the Quran were memorized before being written down. If Muhammad was alive then, why the need to memorise?

I will like to you cite evidence. Talks dont help you. Anyways, Quran is about memorizing. Every muslim is required to memorize Quran. So far you have not prove me wrong.

Why didnt Muhammad and Uthman sign off together on an official copy of the Quran?

Quran was written and documented in his lifetime. Meaning, that's official. Noting added or subtracted unless you have evidence otherwise (different Quran), you have no case. Okay, to elaborate on this, just give me time to get consult my library in some minutes. This space wont allow me to expatiate.

Why so much division after his death?

Irrelevant

AllNaijaBlogger:



What claim about the gospels?

A companion is not a prophet. Uthman had as much right as anyone to compile a holy book. After all, people reject Ali (according to Lagoshia)as a companion.

I did my research after Empiree was playing me "wayo" with islam.

Lagosshia's rejection is about succession.

joseph1832:
I see. And what about the evidence that the Koran originated from God?

Can we Prove Quran is From God?

Muslims have something that offers the clearest proof of all - The Holy Quran. There is no other book like it anywhere on earth. It is absolutely perfect in the Arabic language. It has no mistakes in grammar, meanings or context. The scientific evidences are well known around the entire world, even amongst non-Muslim scholars. Predictions in the Quran have come true; and its teachings are clearly for all people, all places and all times.

Surprisingly enough, the Quran itself provides us with the test of authenticity and offers challenges against itself to prove its veracity. Allah tells us in the Quran:

Haven't the unbelievers considered if this was from other than Allah, they would find within it many contradictions? [Noble Quran 4:82]

Another amazing challenge from Allah's Book:

If you are in doubt about it, bring a chapter like it.[Noble Quran 2:23]

And Allah challenges us with:

Bring ten chapters like it. [Noble Quran 11:13]

And:

Bring one chapter like it. [Noble Quran 10:38]

No one has been able to produce a book like it, nor ten chapters like it, nor even one chapter like it. It was memorized by thousands of people during the lifetime of Muhammad (peace be upon him) and then this memorization was passed down from teacher to student for generation after generation, from mouth to ear and from one nation to another. Today every single Muslim has memorized some part of the Quran in the original Arabic language that it was revealed in over 1,400 years ago, even though most of them are not Arabs. There are over nine million (9,000,000) Muslims living on the earth today who have totally memorized the entire Quran, word for word, and can recite the entire Quran, in Arabic just as Muhammad (peace be upon him) did 14 centuries ago.

Say, [O Muhammad], "The Pure Spirit has brought it down from your Lord in truth to make firm those who believe and as guidance and good tidings to the Muslims." (Quran 16:102)

Bukhari
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 605:
Narrated 'Aisha:

The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly."

I can elaborate on story of Waraqa if you want.

THE QURAN IS THE WORD OF GOD AND AN UNDENIABLE PROOF FOR MUHAMMAD’S PROPHETHOOD

The Quran is completely different from all the other books in the world

When we study the Quran even superficially from the viewpoint of its wording, styles, and meaning, we will certainly conclude that it is completely different from all the other books in the world. So, in rank and worth it is either below all of them-even Satan cannot claim this, nor does he conceive of it-or above them. Since it is above all of them, it must be the Word of God.

The Quran, which he brought, has challenged all mankind with all their literary geniuses and scientists, from the first day of its revelation to the Last Day, to produce a like of it or even a single chapter of it

The Quran openly declares:

You (O Muhammad) was not a reader of any Scripture before it, nor did you write (such a Scripture) with your right hand, for then those who follow falsehood might (have a right) to doubt it. (al-Ankabut, 29.48)

The verse^ refute allegations by evangelical Christians who say muhammad copied from christians.

It is an established, undeniable fact that the Prophet Muhammad, upon him be peace and blessings, was unlettered. Whereas the Quran, which he brought, has challenged all mankind with all their literary geniuses and scientists, from the first day of its revelation to the Last Day, to produce a like of it or even a single chapter of it:

If you are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down onto Our servant (Muhammad), then produce a chapter of the like thereof, and call your witnesses, supporters, who are apart from God, if you are truthful. (al-Baqara, 2.23)

Mankind have since been unable to produce a like of only one of its chapters, including, of course, its shortest ones like sura al-Ikhlas or sura al-Kawthar; those who have ventured to do that have all laid themselves open to ridicule. This is a clear proof for the Divine authorship of the Quran.

The Quran was revealed in 23 years, yet there are not any contradictory points in it

The revelation of the Quran lasted 23 years. It is inconceivable that any book written by a mortal being in 23 years, one which is a book of Divine truths, metaphysics, religious beliefs and worship, prayer, law and morality, a book fully describing the other life, a book of psychology, sociology, epistemology, eschatology and history, and a book containing scientific facts and the principles of a happy life, does not have any contradictory points. Whereas, the Quran openly declares that it has no contradictions at all and therefore is a Divine Book:

Will they not then ponder on the Quran? If it had been from other than God they would have found therein much contradiction and incongruity. (al-Nisa’, 4.82)

The Qur’an is beyond compare from the viewpoint of its styles and eloquence
The Quran is beyond compare from the viewpoint of its styles and eloquence. All the sentences, words and even letters used in the Quran form such a miraculous harmony that, with respect to rhythm, music, and even geometric proportions and mathematical measures, and with respect to how many times each is used in the whole of the Quran, each is in the exact place it must be and interwoven and interrelated with others. The literary masterpiece of no one, including the sayings of the Prophet himself, upon him be peace and blessings, cannot compete with the Quran.


I will stop here now. But I can go on if you want . This is about if Quran is from God according to you. Now if you want some details about Prophet Muhammad's encounter with Angel Gabriel, I will be willing to go into that as well, historically with evidences from Qur'an.

Empiree:

Can we Prove Quran is From God?

Muslims have something that offers the clearest proof of all - The Holy Quran. There is no other book like it anywhere on earth. It is absolutely perfect in the Arabic language. It has no mistakes in grammar, meanings or context. The scientific evidences are well known around the entire world, even amongst non-Muslim scholars. Predictions in the Quran have come true; and its teachings are clearly for all people, all places and all times.

Surprisingly enough, the Quran itself provides us with the test of authenticity and offers challenges against itself to prove its veracity. Allah tells us in the Quran:

Haven't the unbelievers considered if this was from other than Allah, they would find within it many contradictions? [Noble Quran 4:82]

Another amazing challenge from Allah's Book:

If you are in doubt about it, bring a chapter like it.[Noble Quran 2:23]

And Allah challenges us with:

Bring ten chapters like it. [Noble Quran 11:13]

And:



No one has been able to produce a book like it, nor ten chapters like it, nor even one chapter like it. It was memorized by thousands of people during the lifetime of Muhammad (peace be upon him) and then this memorization was passed down from teacher to student for generation after generation, from mouth to ear and from one nation to another. Today every single Muslim has memorized some part of the Quran in the original Arabic language that it was revealed in over 1,400 years ago, even though most of them are not Arabs. There are over nine million (9,000,000) Muslims living on the earth today who have totally memorized the entire Quran, word for word, and can recite the entire Quran, in Arabic just as Muhammad (peace be upon him) did 14 centuries ago.

Say, [O Muhammad], "The Pure Spirit has brought it down from your Lord in truth to make firm those who believe and as guidance and good tidings to the Muslims." (Quran 16:102)

Bukhari
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 605:
Narrated 'Aisha:

The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly."

I can elaborate on story of Waraqa if you want.

THE QURAN IS THE WORD OF GOD AND AN UNDENIABLE PROOF FOR MUHAMMAD’S PROPHETHOOD

The Quran is completely different from all the other books in the world

When we study the Quran even superficially from the viewpoint of its wording, styles, and meaning, we will certainly conclude that it is completely different from all the other books in the world. So, in rank and worth it is either below all of them-even Satan cannot claim this, nor does he conceive of it-or above them. Since it is above all of them, it must be the Word of God.

The Quran, which he brought, has challenged all mankind with all their literary geniuses and scientists, from the first day of its revelation to the Last Day, to produce a like of it or even a single chapter of it

The Quran openly declares:

You (O Muhammad) was not a reader of any Scripture before it, nor did you write (such a Scripture) with your right hand, for then those who follow falsehood might (have a right) to doubt it. (al-Ankabut, 29.48)

The verse^ refute allegations by evangelical Christians who say muhammad copied from christians.

It is an established, undeniable fact that the Prophet Muhammad, upon him be peace and blessings, was unlettered. Whereas the Quran, which he brought, has challenged all mankind with all their literary geniuses and scientists, from the first day of its revelation to the Last Day, to produce a like of it or even a single chapter of it:

If you are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down onto Our servant (Muhammad), then produce a chapter of the like thereof, and call your witnesses, supporters, who are apart from God, if you are truthful. (al-Baqara, 2.23)

Mankind have since been unable to produce a like of only one of its chapters, including, of course, its shortest ones like sura al-Ikhlas or sura al-Kawthar; those who have ventured to do that have all laid themselves open to ridicule. This is a clear proof for the Divine authorship of the Quran.

The Quran was revealed in 23 years, yet there are not any contradictory points in it

The revelation of the Quran lasted 23 years. It is inconceivable that any book written by a mortal being in 23 years, one which is a book of Divine truths, metaphysics, religious beliefs and worship, prayer, law and morality, a book fully describing the other life, a book of psychology, sociology, epistemology, eschatology and history, and a book containing scientific facts and the principles of a happy life, does not have any contradictory points. Whereas, the Quran openly declares that it has no contradictions at all and therefore is a Divine Book:

Will they not then ponder on the Quran? If it had been from other than God they would have found therein much contradiction and incongruity. (al-Nisa’, 4.82)

The Qur’an is beyond compare from the viewpoint of its styles and eloquence
The Quran is beyond compare from the viewpoint of its styles and eloquence. All the sentences, words and even letters used in the Quran form such a miraculous harmony that, with respect to rhythm, music, and even geometric proportions and mathematical measures, and with respect to how many times each is used in the whole of the Quran, each is in the exact place it must be and interwoven and interrelated with others. The literary masterpiece of no one, including the sayings of the Prophet himself, upon him be peace and blessings, cannot compete with the Quran.


I will stop here now. But I can go on if you want . This is about if Quran is from God according to you. Now if you want some details about Prophet Muhammad's encounter with Angel Gabriel, I will be willing to go into that as well, historically with evidences from Qur'an.

Copy and paste.


I am going to stop arguing now because the point has been made- this thread/op is hypocritical. Holy book vs holy book.


Empiree and Rilwaney01, Goodnite and God bless.

Empiree kai you just fall my hand! And in return, you fall your own hand wella!.

All this and still you can't show me any concrete evidence as to the authenticity of the Koran!.

I simple asked you to show me how the Koran got to Muhammad? And you're here giving me epistles. I believe you've heard of the Coptic Scrolls and Dead Sea Scrolls and other Christian relics which stood the test of time. I want you to mention how God gave Muhammad the Koran. Plain and Simple.

PS: kindly make it short and concise

AllNaijaBlogger:
I can't stop laughing at the ignorance of Messrs Empiree and Rilwayne01.

They clearly did not know that Jesus read the old testament and that the new testament is an account of his life told by others.

Everyone can see that these guys have an agenda to attack christianity. Empiree is even hypocritically copying and pasting from anti-christian websites when he is against christians copying from anti-islamic websites.

Whether they like it or not, Jesus is our saviour and the bible is far more reliable on Jesus than the Quran. Jesus himself quoted the old testament as he lived with other Jews. Jesus appeared in the bible long before the advent of islam.

Lol. . very nice observations..

they are both equally lost and ignorant. . but I tend to have a soft spot for Rilwayne001 because he has totally fallen victim to both the Islamic rhetoric and silly teachings, and has tried to rationalize islamic villainy in his mind..
he was probably born a muslim.

.... the other hand u have mr eschatology ..empiree..who knows little about his own religion and just randomly copies articles and videos everywhere to post on this forum..he does not believe in understanding anything or asking questions (see pic below ) just blind believe in the fraud Mohammed. .he also lacks intelligence and his comments are riddled with grammatical errors despite his claim of living in the West (I think he said USA )for several years..

but this is to be expected from Muslims.

[size=20pt]Paul and the Origins of Christianity[/size]

"...it is...a fact of history that St. Paul and his successors added to,..., or imposed upon, or substituted another doctrine for...the plain...teachings of Jesus..."
H.G. Wells (1866-1946)

"The conversion of Paul was no conversion at all: it was Paul who converted the religion that has raised one man above sin and death into a religion that delivered millions of men so completely into their dominion that their own common nature became a horror to them, and the religious life became a denial of life."
George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)

On the Sources

Like our study of Jesus earlier http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/jesus.html#sources, it is important to critically evaluate the primary documents available to us. The documents are mainly to be found in the New Testament, although we will need to supplement these with extra-canonical writings including the writings of the church fathers and some apocryphal works.

A Christian might think that The Acts of the Apostles, which purports to be a historical account of the development of the early Church, provides complete information about this period of Christianity. However a closer analysis shows that this is not case.

First we note that although Christian tradition claims to know the author as Luke, the companion of Paul, the evidence shows otherwise. Indeed the author of the two volume Luke-Acts is unknown to us. [Or course, for ease of reference we will continue to refer to the anonymous author of Acts as "Luke"-but always remembering that this is merely a shorthand for "the anonymous author of the two volume work known to us as the Gospel according to Luke and the Acts of the Apostles"]

Furthermore, critical historical research over the past two hundred years have shown that our "Luke" cannot be considered a very reliable historian. In the twentieth century, with the advent of new methodologies of historical and literary research, scholars made another startling discovery: that the speeches in Acts are unhistorical and are essentially the literary invention of the author. Scholars have also noted that the picture of Paul as presented in Acts is not completely compatible with what we can derive from the genuine Pauline.

While it is certainly not to be doubted that Acts contained some historical data, care and skepticism must be applied when using the information derived from it.

From Acts we move on to the epistles of Paul. In the New Testament there are thirteen epistles attributed to him: Romans, I & II Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, I & II Thessalonians, I & II Timothy, Titus and Philemon. However only seven of these thirteen epistles attributed to Paul in the New Testament are authentic. The pastoral epistles (I & II Timothy & Titus ) are generally regarded as spurious. While Ephesians, Colossians and II Thessalonians have their authenticity disputed; with most scholars doubting Pauline authorship. In our analysis of the history of the origins of Christianity below, we will be relying mainly on the seven undisputed epistles: Romans, I & II Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, I Thessalonians, and Philemon.

We can dismiss the two epistles attributed to Peter as forgeries. They will be of no use to us in our study. Having provided ourselves with the proper grounding on the documents pertaining to earliest Christianity, we can now proceed to analyze the period in detail.

[size=15pt]James, The Brother of Jesus[/size]

The most important figure in earliest Christianity just after the death of Jesus, was, not Paul, not Peter, but James, the brother of Jesus.

James was referred to in the New Testament as "the brother of the Lord" (Galatians 1:18; Mark 6:3; Matthew 13:55-56). Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions have tended to minimize his role; the former claiming that he was the cousin while the latter saying that he was Jesus half brother, the son of Joseph but not of Mary. However the historical evidence is unequivocal in telling us that James was the full biological brother of Jesus.

A critical appreciation of the historical sources all tells us it was James, and not Peter, who was the undisputed leader of the Jerusalem church following the death of Jesus.

We also know that, unlike Paul, James was a devout Jew and a strong proponent of the continued validity of the Mosaic laws for all followers of Jesus.

The Theology and Person of Paul

Now if James, was faithful to the teachings of Jesus and did not repudiate the law, how did Christianity develop into the law-free religion we find soon after? The crucial personality here is Paul, the self-proclaimed Apostle to the Gentiles (Romans 11:13, 15:16-18 Galatians 2:2).

Paul, the apostle formerly known as Saul, was a trained Pharisee, a Roman citizen and a tentmaker by profession. Very importantly, he never met the human Jesus. His conversion was a purely personal hallucinatory experience.

The theology of the atonement did not originate from Jesus. It originated from Paul of Tarsus! Unlike the Jerusalem Church, headed by James, Paul was not shackled by the historical Jesus; he invented Christian theology. It is in the epistles of Paul that we find the kernels of many tenets and dogmas of modern Christian theology. Paul's theology expressly contradicts many of Jesus' teachings.

Pauline theology was to be fully developed by later Christian theologians but it cannot be doubted that Paul metaphorically planted the seeds for the subsequent development and evolution of Christian theology. In this sense, it is certainly valid to call Paul the true founder of Christianity.


Paul and the Jerusalem Church

While Paul was preaching what was essentially his own innovative theology about Jesus, what was going on with the apostles; the ones who knew the earthly Jesus was, and were aware of his teachings? Of course Christian mythology, primarily through the Acts of the Apostles and the forgeries known as the Petrine epistles, have presented the teachings of apostles as being essentially in harmony with Paul and his teaching. That this was not the case is what we will be showing here.

The problem can be traced to Paul's preaching to the Gentiles. After complaints by Jewish Christians from Jerusalem, Paul was summoned to Jerusalem to meet the church there headed by James, Peter and John. In this so-called "Jerusalem Council" an uneasy truce was agreed upon by both parties. It was a truce that did not last. For immediately following the council meeting, an incident occurred at Antioch which, in retrospect, severed forever the ties between Paul and the Jerusalem church.

While Paul wanted to keep some ties to the Jerusalem Church, it was obvious that the latter did not share the same sentiments. Indeed the evidence from Paul's own epistles show that the Jerusalem church, headed by James, actively opposed Paul's missionary activities by sending out emissaries of their own to combat his gospel.

Paul's final attempt to reconcile himself to the Jerusalem Church, by delivering the collection he promised during the "Jerusalem council", met with failure. A careful reading of the evidence shows that the Paul's collection was rejected by the Jerusalem Church and that they very probably "had a hand" in Paul's arrest!

We can conclude that the Jerusalem church, which consisted of Jesus' brothers and the apostles who knew the earthly Jesus (such as Peter and John), never accepted Paul as a "fellow apostle". Indeed, their intense opposition to Paul's mission can only mean that they viewed Paul's theology as heretical.

AllNaijaBlogger:



Funny how all your claims are from spurious hadiths/testimonies/narrations that you will later claim are "weak" when they say something you do not agree with.


There is no exact day or date that the Quran was finally written.

Some of it was written during Muhammad's time but not all of it. If Muhammad saw the final quran, he would have mentioned it or at least yhhafith would have clearly stated that the prophet gave the quran to Uthman.



Also keep in mind that the prophet was an illiterate. An illiterate cannot express himself verbally or orally. Go and listen to the oration of any illiterate. You will understand it but writing it down will be a problem because you will correcting the grammar and sentence structure of the illiterate's speech.


If I recall, the Quran is written in classical Arabic which is even more difficult than standard Arabic. Does the writing of the Quran sound like that if an illiterate? No
The scribes and companions of the prophet must have added their own interpretations and better sentences to uplift Muhammad's uneducated speech.


Lastly, human memory is ver fallible. If I tell you that "I feel discombobulated, agitated and malaise", you might describe what I said the next day as "Allnaijablogger felt a headache and generally sick". Interpretations.



I hope you can see why I find this thread hypocritical. Your Quran comes from special origins- this means that you do not have the moral standing to point fingers at the origins or authors of the bible.

Excellent points ...there are more tho..like the hadith in which aisha says a goat ate some pages of some original records of the Qur'an. And how unscientific the quran is..like camel piss for good health, sun setting in a pool of muddy water, flies having the antidote for diseases it carries etc..this all point to the falsehood of islam..the hadiths are particularly nonsensical. Muslims did better editing of the quran but still failed .

.. Empiree u do a bad job at defending islam.. leave it for people like lagoshi'a and abuamam ..at least those 2 have more than 2 actually working brain cells..

[quote author=Empiree post=31222803][/quote]you said "Allah cannot comes down to write a book" but you believe all the writing on a tree,meat and baby born with quran Allah wrote them all. I need to waste my time with you. Peace

The Person of Paul

We have seen in the previous section that there exists distinct differences between Paul's teachings and what we know to be Jesus'. Yet, who is this man? On what authority did he preach the things that he preached?

The Acts of the Apostles tells us that Paul was a diaspora Jew born in the city of Tarsus in Cilicia (today a part of modern Turkey).

Acts 22:3 (Also Acts 21:39)
Then Paul said: "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia"

His given name was Saul (Hebrew: Shaul) which he eventually latinized to Paul (Latin: Paulus). [1] A near-contemporary of Jesus [a], Paul was a devout Jew before his conversion to Christianity, as he himself tells us:

Philippians 3:5-6
I was born of the race of Israel and the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrew parents, and I was circumcised when I was eight days old. As for the law, I was a Pharisee...as far as the law can make you perfect I was faultless.

Paul was tent-maker by profession:

Acts 18:2-3
Paul went to see them, and because he was a tent-maker as they were, he stayed and worked with them.

He was a Roman citizen:

Acts 22:27
The commander went to Paul and asked, "Tell me, are you a Roman citizen?" "Yes, I am." he answered.

This Tarsiot Jewish tent-maker, a Roman citizen and a Pharisee initially persecuted the followers of Jesus as he himself admits:

Philippians 3:6
I was a persecutor of the church.

Acts 8:2-3
On that day a great persecution broke out against the church of Jerusalem...Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.

According to Acts, he even consented to the stoning to death of Stephen, ostensibly the first martyr of the new religion:

Acts 7:59-8:1
While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord do not hold this against them." When he had said this he fell asleep. And Saul was there, giving approval to his death.

It is also important to note that we have no evidence, neither in the Acts of the Apostles nor in his epistles, that Paul ever met the human Jesus. Indeed, in his epistles as we will show letter, he did not consider meeting or having known the earthly Jesus of any great importance. The mark of apostleship is, for him, having seen the risen Jesus. Paul was converted by his own experience of the risen Jesus. The account is given three times in Acts:

Acts 9:1-9 (Also 22:6-16; 26:12-18)
Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?" "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus the Lord whom you are persecuting." he replied. "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." The men travelling with Paul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

The account above continued with the story of his conversion and baptism by a follower of the Way (as the early followers of Jesus seemed to have been called) who was in Damascus, a man called Ananias (Acts 9:10-19). Just as he has zealously persecuted the followers of the Way earlier, now with equal zeal Paul preached the new religion; but with a twist not found in it before.

Paul, together with his followers went on three missionary journeys throughout the cities of the eastern Mediterranean. He also wrote epistles to the various places that he had visited to guide his newfound converts. It was Paul who first started preaching the Christian message to the Gentiles. He had problems with the leaders of the religion, Peter and James because of this Gentile conversions, something we will look into more detail later.

The final phase of Paul's life started with his visit to Jerusalem around AD58. There he was accused of being a transgressor of the law, was beaten up by the Jewish mob and rescued by the Roman soldiers. Being a Roma citizen Paul appealed his case to Caesar and he was sent to Rome around AD60 for his trial. He remained under house arrest in Rome for two years (from AD61-62). The book of Acts ends at this point:

Acts 28:30-31
For two whole years Paul stayed there in his own rented house and welcomed all who came to see him. Boldly and without hindrance he preached the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ.

Tradition placed Paul's death in Rome during the Neronian persecution of AD64

References

1. Craveri, The Life of Jesus: p158
2. Armstrong, The First Christian: p180
3. Livingstone, Dictionary of the Christian Church: p385-386

Ifeann:


[s] Lol. . very nice observations..they are both equally lost and ignorant. . but I tend to have a soft spot for Rilwayne001 because he has totally fallen victim to both the Islamic rhetoric and silly teachings, and has tried to rationalize islamic villainy in his mind..
he was probably born a muslim..... the other hand u have mr eschatology ..empiree..who knows little about his own religion and just randomly copies articles and videos everywhere to post on this forum..he does not believe in understanding anything or asking questions (see pic below ) just blind believe in the fraud Mohammed. .he also lacks intelligence and his comments are riddled with grammatical errors despite his claim of living in the West (I think he said USA )for several years.. but this is to be expected from Muslims. [/s]

<<<<

Muhammed accept the torah and the gospel as the word of God during his life time, nowadays muslims say the bible is corrupted, who corrupt it?

malvisguy212:
Muhammed accept the torah and the gospel as the word of God during his life time, nowadays muslims say the bible is corrupted, who corrupt it?

This baffles me as well.. despite the fact that the bible or accprding to muslims injeel that mohamed accepted was the same manuscripts Mohammed had assess to in his time..the manuscripts are even hundreds of years older than Mohammed. ..and are the ones we use today..
With the probable exception of the faked gnostic christain manuscript which he got some blasphemous ideas from.

Empiree does your being ban mean you have to mention me in a section where you know I can't comment and quote you unless I accept your religion?.

Also I really can't smell why you were banned! if truly you were banned why on Earth can you comment on that section?.

Now if God gave Muhammad give Koran word for word and we all know Muhammad was not literate, how on Earth did he write it down and couldn't it be very possible that when however transcribed probably messed with it?

So if God gave Muhammad the Koran word for word, who then was responsible in putting it in print!?.

I told you I'm not a christian please do not assume I am.

AllNaijaBlogger:



What claim about the gospels?

You should browse the thread, I would have love to add more to them but its like you are not ready for a reasonable debate just like the other robots on this thread.

A companion is not a prophet.

Agreed

[quot Uthman had as much right as anyone to compile a holy book. [/quote]

Yes, but anyone who is not an eye witness does'nt have the right to compile an holy book because definitely their will always be the mixture of truth, fabrication, fables, tales, hearsay and above all it will be inconsistent I have shown you up there about the Quran "…… Anyhow when I finished writing,he would say, 'Read!' and I would read it back to him. If there was an omission or error he used to correct it and then let it be brought before the people." Mu'jam Al-Tabarani Al-Awst, Hadith 1913. Dar al-Haramain, Cairo, 1415 AH I see no reason why you should quote me to display such ignorance again. The writer of mattew, Luke, John, Mark, are either not an eye witness or they are anonymous **refer back to empiree points about them in page (1) *** hence, the reason for its contradictions and inconsistencies or you want to claim otherwise? Aside that, these writer were not the compiler of the bible. In actuality, the Bible was VOTED to be the word of God by a group of men during the 4th century about 400years after Jesus. Costantine who was the first Roman Emperor to convert to Christianity, needed a single canon to be agreed upon by the Christian leaders to help him unify the remains of the Roman Empire. Until this time the various Christian leaders could not decide which books would be considered "holy" and thus "the word of God" and which ones would be excluded and not considered the word of God.

After all, people reject Ali (according to Lagoshia)as a companion. I did my research after Empiree was playing me "wayo" with islam.

Irrelevant.

joseph1832:
Also I really can't smell why you were banned! if truly you were banned why on Earth can you comment on that section?.

He was banned by antispammbot on the religion section i think, anti-spambot can only ban someone from commenting on a particular section and not on NL as a whole. Are you new here?

Now if God gave Muhammad give Koran word for word and we all know Muhammad was not literate, how on Earth did he write it down and couldn't it be very possible that when however transcribed probably messed with it? So if God gave Muhammad the Koran word for word, who then was responsible in putting it in print!?.

Stop asking questions like a primary 3 student, read the thread and stop been ignorant.

I told you I'm not a christian please do not assume I am.

Are you an atheist? agnostic?