Msauza:


F7 is inferior to Griffin, so let us stop comparing the two.

inferior only in name and perspective

agaugust:


Year 2005 era Italian Grifo radars including some with about 90 km range, modern HUDAWAC, HMS and year 2010 combat suite you never find in a MiG-21 basic old model.

You talk like a navy cook yet deny being one
.

Just because it is new does not mean it is better or good.

EVarn:
there is no use limping around with a heavy and sluggish aircraft like the gripen,when you could achieve superior range and maneoverability with a F7.

The gripen can out manvour the F7 fly greater distances and carry more. All at the same time.

andrewza:


Just because it is new does not mean it is better or good.

Okay, SAAF Hawk jets of 2005 era are same as those 1980s era. You train inside obsolete jets. Simple
.

andrewza:


Oryx carries over 3 times the man power for only double the cost. Point made.

dude! the a109 isnt a transport helicopter,its a LUH the oryx can carry 20x the
man power of the a109 it still wouldnt matter, a luh can carry out way more tasks than the oryx without being modifide. It would be idiotic to use an oryx for anti poaching,surveillance ect ect if you could use the a109 for less than half the price

andrewza:


The gripen can out manvour the F7 fly greater distances and carry more. All at the same time.

Still won't save SAAF Gripen with 25 km range missile from NAF F-7 with 35 km range near BVR missile.

Case closed
.

andrewza:

The gripen can out manvour the F7 fly greater distances and carry more. All at the same time.

that itself is a great impediment,it makes the gripen a bigger target,a gripen laden with useless bombs can maneover as effectively as an injured flamingo,F7 has superior speed and range.it also cost less to maintain and upgrade.

agaugust:


I am not copy pasting procedure, I am educating your ANC imprisoned minds to know that US Army does not discriminate in recruitment of combat soldiers based on their BSc degree course of study. There are accountants, school teachers, sociologists, lawyers, and people who have never been to university all in the US Army as combatants, that's what they want, chose to be and passed the relevant tests, exams, training, etc.

US Army don't force people into a corps or department they don't want to service, it's voluntary service NOT conscription.

Olodos
.

In short, you are telling us that we should take your word for it.

What that means, simply, is that you can't back up what you are saying.

No surprises there.

The question is whether an accountant's MOS is 11B or 36B. This entire post of yours is irrelevant; and designed to make it look like you are addressing the question - when you really aren't.

MikeCZAR:

Just like pigeons at night and during bad weather you fighters go to their nests aka hangers.

They can't be deployed in a contested air space, only against rebels under guard of the hot African sun are your fighters able to fight.

South Africa's inexperienced air force has not deployed in ANY contested airspace in the last 20 years, last time you tried it against Cuba your jets were mercilessly shot down by Cuban teenage pilots, SAAF quickly ran away to hide on the ground sitting redundant inside air bases, while your government begged UN to hurry up and arrange peace talks with Cuba
.

agaugust:


Patriotism?

I post technical facts not patriotism.

Bros, sorry to say you are jumping into a forum with a thread that has almost 2,000 pages . Do you know what we have discussed here in the past 5 years of this same topic? No, you don't.

You have too many leaking holes in your above comment. Does Angola have any air force pilot with air to air combat experience? Have you worked with any combat experienced jet fighter pilot before? Be honest.

Well, I have ex-USAF pilots working in my office, they have shot down enemy jet fighters before in combat.

Last year on this forum, I posted a report from an American jet fighter test pilot who proved that in close range air to air combat, the 3.5 generation jets and the 4 generation jets are both going to die together in combat if pilot skills are equal.

Reason is that you have only about 10 seconds to make decisions when missiles speed to k.ill at 3,000 km per hour and the enemy launch jet is within visual range just 20 km away from you! Sudden death!

There is something in air to air combat technically called NO ESCAPE ZONE....you enter that close range, you both die.

Now you say SAAF Gripen C/D is better than Su-30 MKI of India? Big error!

The Su-30MKI radar range is 400 km against the weaker Gripen radar range of 120 km. Dude, I don't know you but you sound like a comedian.

In WVR combat, the Su-30MKI has vector thrusting capability which is totally missing on Gripen . The supermaneuverability of the Su-30 gives dogfight superiority for missile evasion and gun fight edge, it will kill the poorly maneuverable Gripen.

Your other mistake is that you limited air combat to just the machines, you omitted pilot skill, previous combat experience, and pilots intelligence or sense and speed of judgement/decision making.

Also you said the old Gripen of South Africa is better than the latest Su-30 Flanker, I just pity you, the latest version is Su-30SM of Russia and it is built to challenge the F-22 Raptor, it switches off radar and uses long range Video TV camera to detect and attack stealth jet fighters that are invisible to radar. You don't even know about Su-30SM, try ask questions when you don't understand things.

Dude, you need more than one head to take on Nigerians, the South Africans here can show you all their bruises and wounds they have suffered in this slaughter house
.

Judge by yourself and stop your illusions.



http://www.rhk111smilitaryandarmspage.com/the-flanker-g-killer-the-jas-39c-gripen-versus-the-su-30mkkmk2-flanker-g/

agaugust:


South Africa's inexperienced air force has not deployed in ANY contested airspace in the last 20 years, last time you tried it against Cuba your jets were mercilessly shot down by Cuban teenage pilots, SAAF quickly ran away to hide on the ground sitting redundant inside air bases, while your government begged UN to hurry up and arrange peace talks with Cuba
.

hahahaha ,keep telling yourself these lies mate!!

jl115:

dude! the a109 isnt a transport helicopter,its a LUH the oryx can carry 20x the
man power of the a109 it still wouldnt matter, a luh can carry out way more tasks than the oryx without being modifide. It would be idiotic to use an oryx for anti poaching,surveillance ect ect if you could use the a109 for less than half the price

Why? The Oryx can carry all the need systems. But then so good a lighter gazzel. We have no need for a LUH but a light tactical chopper is needed.

DieVluit:


In short, you are telling us that we should take your word for it.

What that means, simply, is that you can't back up what you are saying.

No surprises there.

The question is whether an accountant's MOS is 11B or 36B. This entire post of yours is irrelevant; and designed to make it look like you are addressing the question - when you really aren't.

You are asking me to start a new argument on US Army recruitment policy on an African military thread, does that make sense to you? I said @Patches is simply copy pasting free internet information from websites available on simply google search done inside his Soweto bedroom.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/enlistedjobs/a/11b.htm

http://www.usarec.army.mil/

Invest your time on US Army recruitment policy if you have nothing else to debate on. Mumu
.

EVarn:
that itself is a great impediment,it makes the gripen a bigger target,a gripen laden with useless bombs can maneover as effectively as an injured flamingo,F7 has superior speed and range.it also cost less to maintain and upgrade.

You do know the bombers get escourted and that that a gripen with a full load could easley match a F7 still.

The gripen is a bit faster.

And yes at full combat load the F7 beats the gripen in range by 50km. Of course combat load for a F7 is

[img]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/fKMAIl0a_kdi_S3E7jkeNmioMPytXyl3ihxdgM8R4mQQux8h9vi2RLU_5FN5QiKCzVkBLNhQ6LrxTIADhWt501j2EpxHOcTTpH-ntmiaWV83X4TRddsytPXqK0GwCMCB6gdeijs2ajgZ=w400-h300-nc[/img]

Where a gripen is more like.

[img]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/C-oX2f46z6RA4jhDLlFsllM3K6h0sRlWXYVnQYNAAa8cT-9YhA01PruZvIDSLXr3CW4h8_d5v-hmGXbQJvx5enZ8q8hxTWAod18qfYOn85gly03S2L70bhA1GgsWH6i7ty1cPEKFmQru9NZNXS0mjSokLDwdD08=w313-h470-nc[/img]


[img]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/nY7MusqdyHbgjHibqMQO6a-Ip0-r66iC5YhWIFFra4lFVMa-EmX4QPB96zkjURb3lYkFQ0b5nSJIEbxRQmM6jVusgomcS_3SNINftn3B6xUbHMGzjW2uP2p0=w474-h311-nc[/img]

[img]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/AEIctfpy-k0R3UvAzH3zn1MebB6gALgAsBnhFQAs8chJPSPbHkaTxYZA_E_X4WLxkrlSNTb_D1UKlD-ZSV7hMsAtrrlYoiBvtJglDkcusu7wiG42cvrYZqSBqbv2oI7gWiZfw7Xg=w350-h420-nc[/img]

So have fun with your 2 AAMs.

agaugust:

You are asking me to start a new argument on US Army recruitment policy on an African military thread, does that make sense to you? I said @Patches is simply copy pasting free internet information from websites available on simply google search done inside his Soweto bedroom.
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/enlistedjobs/a/11b.htm
http://www.usarec.army.mil/
Invest your time on US Army recruitment policy if you have nothing else to debate on. Mumu
.

You already are in the argument. It was fine until you were asked for more than your word, wasn't it?

Nowhere do these links support anything you said.

A joke.

DieVluit:


You already are in the argument. It was fine until you were asked for more than your word, wasn't it?

Nowhere do these links support anything you said.

A joke.

I am more interested in knowing if you are male or female, leave US Army recruitment policy for internet google addicts.

Are you male or female, I keep asking since 3 days ago .

Are you female and above 18 years old ?..

andrewza:


The gripen can out manvour the F7 fly greater distances and carry more. All at the same time.

Both F-7 and Gripen have poor maneuverability.

F-7 has superior altitude over the Gripen.

F-7NI with near BVR missiles like NAF has, will shoot down a SAAF Gripen, South Africa parades poorly armed Gripen jets, that's why you will lose air combat fighting Nigeria.

SAAF is over hyped by Hollywood style videos
.

EVarn:
pakistan is struggling to even put together a train engine,yet they have a sizable salvo of radioactive missiles,what does that tell you?,if we place priority on WMDs,within a year,we will have a nuclear programme running at almost supersonic capacity.

Investigate first please.

I'm tired of teaching you.

MikeCZAR:


Investigate first please.

I'm tired of teaching you.

give evidence to the contrary.

EVarn:
the F7 can penetrate and withdraw from an airspace in total lockdown at half the time it takes a a fully armed gripen.

Your air force can't deploy outside Nigeria for air combat against an air force like SAAF.

MikeCZAR:
Your air force can't deploy outside Nigeria for air combat against an air force like SAAF.

We can hold our airspace against unauthorized penetration and aerial invasion.

agaugust:


South Africa's inexperienced air force has not deployed in ANY contested airspace in the last 20 years, last time you tried it against Cuba your jets were mercilessly shot down by Cuban teenage pilots, SAAF quickly ran away to hide on the ground sitting redundant inside air bases, while your government begged UN to hurry up and arrange peace talks with Cuba
.

Training >Experience.

SAAF maintains the capability.

Nigerian air force can't deploy its fighters outside your boarders with the prospect of meeting enemy fighters.

SAAF sat in the cockpits of their jets under the hot Namibian sun, and scrambled when enemy fighters were "detected".

EVarn:
give evidence to the contrary.

Get a brain first.

EVarn:
We can hold our airspace against unauthorized penetration and aerial invasion.

Your air force deploy out your boarders in a contested air space.

You'll only be able to deploy trainers for light strikes.

EVarn:
We can hold our airspace against unauthorized penetration and aerial invasion.

.

Quick scenario: Uganda threatens a ground invasion of South Sudan after air strikes crippling the small country's air port radars.

South Sudan calls upon Nigeria for help.

What would Nigeria do?

MikeCZAR:
Your air force can't deploy outside Nigeria for air combat against an air force like SAAF.

Your SAAF cannot even leave their air base to another country for combat deployment as at today, you have no aviation fuel to fly.

NAF flew 1,000 km to 2,000 km to fight with Alpha jets in Liberia, Sierra Leone, Ivory Coast, and Mali from 1990 to 2013
.

MikeCZAR:
.

Quick scenario: Uganda threatens a ground invasion of South Sudan after air strikes crippling the small country's air port radars.

South Sudan calls upon Nigeria for help.

What would Nigeria do?

What would South Africa do without aviation fuel and short combat radius Gripen fuel tank in that same scenario?
.

MikeCZAR:
Nigeria doesn't have resources, the know how and whole lot of things.

You're still struggling with vehicle. You think WMD(s) are primary school water bottle rocket projects?

Nigeria struggling with vehicles

The Igirigi prototype was launched in 2012, it entered service in 2013, I fail to see how that's struggling.


Do you even know what struggling is?

jl115:

hahahaha ,keep telling yourself these lies mate!!

Beauty doesn't mean better.

andrewza:


You do know the bombers get escourted and that that a gripen with a full load could easley match a F7 still.

The gripen is a bit faster.

And yes at full combat load the F7 beats the gripen in range by 50km. Of course combat load for a F7 is

[img]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/fKMAIl0a_kdi_S3E7jkeNmioMPytXyl3ihxdgM8R4mQQux8h9vi2RLU_5FN5QiKCzVkBLNhQ6LrxTIADhWt501j2EpxHOcTTpH-ntmiaWV83X4TRddsytPXqK0GwCMCB6gdeijs2ajgZ=w400-h300-nc[/img]

Where a gripen is more like.

[img]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/C-oX2f46z6RA4jhDLlFsllM3K6h0sRlWXYVnQYNAAa8cT-9YhA01PruZvIDSLXr3CW4h8_d5v-hmGXbQJvx5enZ8q8hxTWAod18qfYOn85gly03S2L70bhA1GgsWH6i7ty1cPEKFmQru9NZNXS0mjSokLDwdD08=w313-h470-nc[/img]


[img]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/nY7MusqdyHbgjHibqMQO6a-Ip0-r66iC5YhWIFFra4lFVMa-EmX4QPB96zkjURb3lYkFQ0b5nSJIEbxRQmM6jVusgomcS_3SNINftn3B6xUbHMGzjW2uP2p0=w474-h311-nc[/img]

[img]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/AEIctfpy-k0R3UvAzH3zn1MebB6gALgAsBnhFQAs8chJPSPbHkaTxYZA_E_X4WLxkrlSNTb_D1UKlD-ZSV7hMsAtrrlYoiBvtJglDkcusu7wiG42cvrYZqSBqbv2oI7gWiZfw7Xg=w350-h420-nc[/img]

So have fun with your 2 AAMs.

The AAM only has to hit the Gripen once,

And it's "Goodbye vienna".

andrewza:


You do know the bombers get escourted and that that a gripen with a full load could easley match a F7 still.

The gripen is a bit faster.

And yes at full combat load the F7 beats the gripen in range by 50km. Of course combat load for a F7 is 2 AAMs.

Gripen is NOT faster than F-7, they have same speed.

Rather F-7 climbs to higher altitude than Gripen with extra 2km ceiling advantage for F-7 especially in a cannon battle dog fight.

Also the F-7 has two 30 mm cannon while Gripen has only one 23 mm cannon. One hist from F-7 on Gripen will tear the Gripen into pieces, F-7 has 3 times more cannon firepower over the Gripen.

Yes 2 missiles when F-7 is traveling 850 km, but 5 missiles when F-7 is traveling half that distance.

When both aircraft have used chaff and flares to waste their missiles, the F-7 will demolish Gripen with superior flight altitude advantage and 3 times greater cannon firepower .

You don't judge an aircraft by it's name or public image, jets fight according to their technical capabilities as machines.

NAF has 35 km range missile on F-7 plus all the other advantages I listed above.

In combat, the SAAF will NOT be able to defeat NAF, except spirit angels from heaven come down to your rescue....and they won't like your Homosex.ual pilots....ya just a bunch of sinners, Gays, R.apists, etc !
.

dacostaANG:


There are a lot of falsehoods in your statements, there's no such thing as we both die in air combat if opposing forces only engage each other with short range missiles.

In conclusion I see no way that any of your statements can be true in the modern world of 4th gen aircrafts. We must learn to put our patty patriotism aside

Brother, who taught you all the errors you wrote above? You need to learn from real jet fighter pilots, please read :

.


[size=16pt]How Upgraded F-7, MiG-21 Jet Fighters Vs F-16, F-18, MiG-29, Gripen Jets....

....Are Rated In Worldwide Military Opinion Forums
[/size]




Pakistani F-7 jets are the counterpart of Indian MiG 21 Bison and Romanian MiG 21 Lancers, these 3 jets are upgraded to fight and survive against F-16 jets, F-18, MiG 29, Gripen and other 4th generation light jet fighters in that class.


Romania retired all MiG 29 jets and replaced them with moderninzed MiG 21 Jets for its NATO air power operations...that tells you something.

F-7 NI jet is still superior to MiG 21 Lancer and Bison because of the new F-7 jet swept wing and bubble canopy for extra capacity in dog fight maneuvers, ground attack maneuvers and enemy aircraft spotting in visual range combat. The only area the MiG 21 Lancer and Bison have an edge is beyond visual range radar and missiles.

Now let us read what other military forums around the world are saying, some of the commentators are real jet fighter pilots in the best air forces of the world today....surprises for you if you read :


"The MiG-21 LanceR is still a MiG-21, the airframe is the same, while the engine suffered minor modifications. However, just as long the radar and weapons systems installed onboard will be competitive, just as long the helmet mounted display and firing system will continue to represent the edge of technology, and just as long the Romanian fighter pilots will continue to win international exercises, the MiG-21 Lancer will remain a formidable opponent, often under-evaluated by foreign analysts.

Some will argue that they have the best planes in the world and no MiG-21, no matter what it carries onboard, will ever be able to face an F-15, F-18 or F-16 in combat. Well, all those pilots who have flown the Lancer, may they be French, American, Dutch, Belgian or British have been extremely impressed of its performances and the American fighter pilots have stated that the Lancer has real chances to win a dogfight with any of their fighters.

http://www.lockonfiles.com/topic/35934-mig-21-lancer/



A No.20 Sqn 'Cheetahs' F-7PG aircraft doing effective low-level attack as in the weblink below. This air superiority squadron is tasked with day/night air superiority and day ground attack /Close-Air-Support (CAS) to ground forces. No.20 Sqn has been a vital fighting element of PAF since more than past 55 years. Over the years this unit has performed in Tactial Reconnaissance, Tactial day/night attack and air-superiority roles.

http://www.pafwallpapers.com/gallery_F-7.htm



F-7 jets droping counter measure flares to defend itself against enemy missiles in combat

http://www.pafwallpapers.com/gallery_F-7/F-7s_horizon_flares.jpg



The pilot also says the IAF’s MiG-21 Bison aircraft, modified with Israeli radar, active radar missiles and electronic jammers, are nearly “invisible” to the F-15 and F-16’s current mechanically-scanned arrays, allowing the Indian pilots to sneak past the USAF radar screen and engage the F-15s and F-16s in dogfights.

“The MiG-21 had the ability to get in the scissors with you at 110kts at 60 degrees nose high and go from 10,000 to 20,000

feet,” he said.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/defence-strategic-issues/22338-indian-mig-21-bison-v-s-paf-jf-17-has-edge-2.html



Draft copy of the exercise Cope India report says:

While the superb performances of IAF Sukhoi-30s were somewhat anticipated, the performance of MiG-21Bison came as a major

“unpleasant surprise” to the USAF officials. It also validates the claim of the Russian officials that they are capable of successfully converting “second generation” late-model MiG-21bis fighters to “fourth generation combat platforms”. Inherently the significant positive attributes enjoyed by MiG-21s were their dog fighting ability in WVR (Within Visual Range) combat. Even the earlier models had a low corner velocity of 556 kilometers per hour and at Mach 0.5 had an instantaneous turn rate of 11.1 degrees per second. The MiG-21Bison with more powerful R-25 engines not only considerably bettered this performance but it may also be credited with “jackrabbit” acceleration, a very critical attribute in WVR combat.

A well flown Mig 21 is worth half a dozen badly flown F22's or F35's .


http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?121375-MiG-21-still-unpleasant-surprise-at-Cope-India-exercise-how-so

http://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Perfor...6439329&sr=1-1



Among many fourth generations attributes added to the IAF MiG-21Bison design, the incorporation of HMS (Helmet Mounted Sight) and high-off-boresight R-73RDM2 NBVR/WVR (Near Beyond Visual Range/Within Visual Range) AAMs (Air-to-Air Missiles) have turned it into a “Great Equalizer” in the WVR combat scenario. Conceptually a small number of MiG-21Bisons maintaining “radar silence” can be guided towards their aerial target by a couple of Sukhoi-30s by secure data links in accordance with MFFC (Mixed Fighter Force Concept).


Upon entering into an WVR combat envelope the MiG-21 Bisons armed with HMS and deadly NBVR/WVR missiles had the capability of destroying even 5th generation jet fighters like F-22 Raptor as assessed by high-profile Jet Fighter Pilot and Analyst Ben Lambeth of RAND Corporation. According to Lambeth “in visual combat everybody dies at the same rate.”


F/A-22 also has to slow down if forced into a WVR combat scenario and loses the advantage of its super-cruise attributes.The situation further complicates if the IAF Sukhoi-30s have acquired the capability of providing target illumination for RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder) BVR missiles being launched from IAF MiG-21Bisons at extended ranges.

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2428939



MiG 21 Lancers have also participated successfully in various NATO exercises. The modernized aircraft demonstrated exceptional readiness levels, relative to their former status, as well as to comparable NATO air forces. In such exercises, the Romanian pilots could participate in the most sophisticated modes of operations, such as laser designation of targets, and precision attacks -capabilities that are yet to be acquired by NATO newcomers.


The MiG 21 Lancer fleet now constitutes the backbone of the Romanian Air Force, performing air defense, close air support and training roles. The aircraft can carry both Eastern and western armament, and perform extremely accurate attacks with both “iron bombs” and precision guided weapons. Lancer is cleared for missiles such as the R60, R73 and Python 3 missiles, 250 and 500 lb bombs, laser guided munitions, targeting, ECM and Reconnaissance pods etc. The Lancer has demonstrated a circular error point (CEP) accuracy of 7 mil/radian and below, while maintaining 1-2meter CEP with laser guided weapons. The aircraft is also cleared for asymmetric loading of weapons, which provides a more flexible and economical use of weapons. Among the 110 aircraft, 85 are configured for ground attack, equipped with a ranging radar, while 25 are air defense variants, using the Elta EL/M-2032 air combat radar.

http://defense-update.com/news/lancer.htm "



F-7 NI Jets and its counterparts MiG 21 Lancer and Bison, will match any MiG 29, F-16, F-18 or Gripen jet in within visual range battle of less than 37km range distance.

All south african Gripen jets have ONLY within visual range missiles whether the current IRIS-T or the planned/still awaited A-DARTER missiles. FACT !!!

For all people, Nigerians, South Africans, Ugandans, Angolans, and others who have underestimated Nigerian version called F-7 NI jets, i have allowed real military experts around the world to talk and help you correct your wrong views that F-7NI jet is crap in air combat and weak in ground attack
.