lezz:
one source? When I say this is history , I mean it's everywhere.
http://blackmystory.net/the-battle-of-cuito-cuanavale-and-cubas-role-in-the-defeat-of-apartheid-apart-hate/

https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-176d-Victory-at-Cuito-Cuanavale

http://links.org.au/node/483


http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/12/world/south-africa-s-strategy-on-angola-falls-short-enhancing-cubans-role.html

http://www.urrib2000.narod.ru/Tanques3-e.html

Now do you want more?

lezz:
get me an independent source which didn't originate from the south African military writers desperately trying to hide their humiliation.

http://www.urrib2000.narod.ru/Tanques3-e.html

MikeCZAR:
It is between France and the UK.

lezz:
get me an independent source which didn't originate from the south African military writers desperately trying to hide their humiliation.

http://www.urrib2000.narod.ru/Tanques3-e.html

Patchesagain:

Later, in September, the Angolans were defeated by the combined force of South Africans and Angolan rebels in the battle of the Lomba River, according to accounts by all sides.

With the Angolans in retreat, the South Africans and the Savimbi forces then tried to capture Cuito Cuanavale, the stronghold from which the Government offensive had been mounted. But the Angolans, backed by Cubans and Soviet advisers, put up a spirited defense, and the South Africans decided that the town was not worth the casualties that its capture would require.
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/12/world/south-africa-s-strategy-on-angola-falls-short-enhancing-cubans-role.html

Your own source destroys your entire argument.

Quito was an anciliary objective - and it was easyer and less costly to knock out the Cuban/Angolan airfeild there through the use of long range artillery

EVarn:
oh man,dont you think before you type,or are you just plain ignorant?.let me help you with the chronological order of world powers:
USA
China
UK
India
Russia{or Germany}
Germany{or Russia}
France
Canada
Israel
Brazil

jln115:

"get me an independent"
I provided 3 sources, go look them up.
Secondly now where in your article does it state we lost 11000 men
Lastly how do i know your source is independent?

lezz:
are you implicitly admitting that south Africa lost the war? This is the faintest effort of grace you have displayed thus far here.
Or maybe today being Sunday has deaden your usual urge for denial.

Because after south Africa was defeated decisively, the Angolan civil commenced.
You don't want to use that as your cover now, do you?

lezz:
and where did I say you lost 11,000 men? You had several years planing the invasion of Angola after the Cubans defeated you in 1975/6.


Your sources are inadmissible because ot has already been established that the sandf and cia with help from an American diplomat Chester Crocker attempted to deceive the world by rewriting the events of that war.

Patchesagain:


get me an independent source which didn't originate from the cuban military writers desperately trying to hide their humiliation.

lezz:
one source? When I say this is history , I mean it's everywhere.
http://blackmystory.net/the-battle-of-cuito-cuanavale-and-cubas-role-in-the-defeat-of-apartheid-apart-hate/

https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-176d-Victory-at-Cuito-Cuanavale

http://links.org.au/node/483


http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/12/world/south-africa-s-strategy-on-angola-falls-short-enhancing-cubans-role.html

http://www.urrib2000.narod.ru/Tanques3-e.html

Now do you want more?

lezz:
my sources includes the newtork times, an anti Cuba press establishemt and several western media houses who supported south Africa in that war.

Give up this fight, It has been established that Chester Crocker wrote the war for some west press.


When the cibans first flushed you out in 1975/6, you were still using 1956 British outdated tanks. You upgraded in 1977 and mounted another invasion in Angola and got beaten again.

Keep coming.

lezz:
and where did I say you lost 11,000 men? You had several years planing the invasion of Angola after the Cubans defeated you in 1975/6.


Your sources are inadmissible because ot has already been established that the sandf and cia with help from an American diplomat Chester Crocker attempted to deceive the world by rewriting the events of that war.

lezz:
you lost with over 11,000 troops,CIA mercenaries and with logical and equipment support from American base in Zaire.
When the Angolans swept away your war planes and dominated the skies, the sandf resorted to stealing cattles for survival.

Patchesagain:

USA - obviously
China - no force projection
UK
India - no force projection,largely outdated equipment
Russia{or Germany} - this low? are you kidding me?
Germany{or Russia} - Lol Germany
France - this low?
Canada
Israel
Brazil
Real rankings:
USA
Russia/China
Uk/France
Turkey/Egypt/India/Germany/Spain
You need to learn this difference between Hyperpowers (USA), Superpowers (Russia,Uk,France), Great Nations (the rest), Regional Powers ect
Also, you need to consider that UK and France are part of the EU - which technically is the second most powerfull military on earth and could potentially challenge the US for Hyperpower status.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_European_Union

agaugust:


All standard air shows around the world are civilian affairs, civilians buy weapons for military. Civilian government officials visit shows and see weapons on display to buy for their country's military.

Go to Paris air show and see 90% of the people there are civilians. Fool.



Global air shows like the Paris and Dubai air shows display the latest jet fighters in the world, yet they are civilian shows.

Yes civilians manufacture weapons and market them at public shows. Civilians run standard defence industries.

Stop freaking yourself out mister man !

jln115:

"where did I say you lost 11,000 men?"

agaugust:


Cool ! Then show us when SANDF paid for purchase of Mokopa, purchase order, contracts, proof of payment.



Freaking liar !

"Since 2001, Denel has been making huge losses and needed government bailouts. Between 2006 and 2009, the company lost nearly R2.8bn.

The government had to bail out Denel to the tune of Rands 3.5 billion between 2006 and 2008 ."

http://www.thenewage.co.za/mobi/Detail.aspx?NewsID=25337&CatID=9

I force you to swallow the truth about your own country ! Liar !
.

Patchesagain:


Exept as I have just shown your sources contradict what you are saying.

The Cubans flushed us out during OP Savannah? Citation needed

The SADF never had any intention of invading Angola - we launched incursions to support UNITA and to find and destroy PLAN bases. All 35 of these operations were succesfull - we never lost a battle.

Patchesagain:


Your sources say 10 000 dead and 500 tanks destroyed. By using the source you confirm it.

What invasion of Angola?

We never had any major plans for such - we still however launched no less than 35 major incursions into Southern Angola to support UNITA and to fight PLAN.

And when did the Cubans defeat us? Operation Savannah?

lezz:
Are you saying the sandf didn't attempt to invade Cuba?

jln115:

Yes we never attempted to invade Cuba!

lezz:
you make me cry

1= you lost over 11,000 troops

2= you lost with over 11,000 troops,CIA mercenaries and with logical and equipment support from American base in Zaire.

You mean you can't tell the difference between 1 & 2 ?

This is getting funnier.

lezz:
are you saying the sandf didn't invade Angola i meant?

jln115:

Firstly if it wasnt for your poor comprehension skills i might have understood your comment better.

I dont want to be a grammar Nazi but im guessing you meant:
"you lost over 11000 troops and CIA mercenaries with logistical ,and equipment support from an American base in Zaire."

Secondly if you meant what has been said in the above sentence, are you then saying the CIA lost 2000 men?and can you prove this claim with any citations?

agaugust:


Proof that Ford engines were built in South Africa, citation needed
.

lezz:
my poor comprehension CANNOT possibly make you not to understand.

You are omitting the preposition"with" in the sentence which is the barrier between your comprehension and confusion .

Allow me help you by coming down a bit; I'm going to rephrase now[b]: you lost despite having over 11,000 troops, CIA merceneries and supplies[/b]. Now this isn't an English class by any means.

You lost that war big time with outdated tanks and war planes. The Cubans shot you out of the skies. Your military writers and consultant attempted to rewrite another version of that war. South African and some section of American press carried it but the truth still prevailed and Chester Crocker was exposed.

Your sources are inadmissible by purpose and content.

andrewza:



Mercenaries? From where.

lezz:
CIA

andrewza:


And your proof? And again from where. 2000 people don't spawn from thin air.

lezz:
my poor comprehension CANNOT possibly make you not to understand.

You are omitting the preposition"with" in the sentence which is the barrier between your comprehention and confusion .

Allow me help you by coming down a bit; I'm going to rephrase now: you lost despite having over 11,000 troops, via merceneries and supplies. Now this isn't an English class by any means.

You lost that war big time with outdated tanks and war planes. The Cubans shot you out of the skies. Your military writers and consultant attempted to rewrite another version of that war. South African and some section of American press carried it but the truth still prevailed and Chester Crocker was exposed.

Your sources are inadmissible by purpose and content.

lezz:
Are you just waking up? It's everywhere; CIA backed SANDF troops got a serious beating in Angola in 1988. The Americans where dropping air supplies and men from their base in Zaire.

you don't want to take us 7 pages back now, do you?

lezz:
Are you just waking up? It's everywhere; CIA backed SANDF troops got a serious beating in Angola in 1988. The Americans where dropping air supplies and men from their base in Zaire.

you don't want to take us 7 pages back now, do you?