Jehova witnesses, you teach that JESUS CHRIST is michael the arch-angel, who was created by God.

fine!

We know God to be all-powerful. And God (Jehovah) is different from Jesus (michael)

fine!

How then do you explain this scripture in your own new world translation, 1 Corinthians 1:24 " However, to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God"

So does that mean michael is the power of Jehovah and wisdom of Jehovah?...That makes michael superior to Jehovah since Jehovah would have no wisdom and power of his own according to your teachings. So what if michael decides to rebel against jehovah just as satan did? Besides, you state in collosians 1:16 of your new world translation that "All other things [/b]were created by him. In him [b]all other things were created."

please what were these other things that were created by michael the arch-angel?, And how do you reconcile this with Isaiah 48:12-13 in your own new world translation " Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I have called. I am the same One.+ I am the first; I am also the last.+
13 + My own hand laid the foundation of the earth, And my right hand spread out the heavens.+ When I call to them, they stand up together."

is your bible lying??

Genesis 1:26 clearly explains Colossians 1:16. To explain, to build a house u need an architect and a builder. The architect is the over all and the builder 2nd to him. Similarly God is the architect of the universe and everything there in. Jesus (or Michael while in heaven) was the builder. Proverbs 8 describes him as a masterworker. Jesus was the only person directly created by God and therefore is rightly called "the only begotten son" (John 3:16). All other things (angels in the heaven, the universe, the earth and everything in it) were made through him. Jehovah could rightly say his hand laid the foundation of the earth, just like an architect could say, i built this house.

Preciousgirl:

Jehova witnesses, you teach that JESUS CHRIST is michael the arch-angel, who was created by God.

fine!

We know God to be all-powerful. And God (Jehovah) is different from Jesus (michael)

fine!

How then do you explain this scripture in your own new world translation, 1 Corinthians 1:24 " However, to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God"

So does that mean michael is the power of Jehovah and wisdom of Jehovah?...That makes michael superior to Jehovah since Jehovah would have no wisdom and power of his own according to your teachings. So what if michael decides to rebel against jehovah just as satan did? Besides, you state in collosians 1:16 of your new world translation that "All other things [/b]were created by him. In him [b]all other things were created."

Christ is the wisdom or power of God in that His power is manifested through him and toward him. As we can infer from what you said, it will be illogical to understand the verse to mean that Christ is the literal wisdom and power of God.

please what were these other things that were created by michael the arch-angel?, And how do you reconcile this with Isaiah 48:12-13 in your own new world translation " Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I have called. I am the same One.+ I am the first; I am also the last.+
13 + My own hand laid the foundation of the earth, And my right hand spread out the heavens.+ When I call to them, they stand up together."

is your bible lying??

Is better to say "the bible", rather than " Your bible".

To your question. Ultimately, it was God who created all things, but He used His son in doing this. He no doubt delegated some work to His son, but he retains the title Creator, cos the son was just acting on God's instruction. Heb 1:2 shows that God created the world through His son.

To show that God can actualize the meaning of His title through others, can you read Isaiah 43:11? There you see God says 'beside him there is no savior'. Now turn to judges 3:15, there we see that Ehud became a savior. Yes, he saved people, but the ultimate Savior is Jehovah who used him for the work.

Do the above make sense to you?

I think asking witnesses at the doors or visiting www.jw.org or even wol.jw.org is a good way of finding some answers to your questions.

If you start attending meetings and studying with a witness, you can have access to qualified ministers who can give you needed help.

I also suggest that if you want to ask me question, sending it to my inbox will receive speedy response and make for a calm discussion, than doing it here. If you are not comfortable with a male, I ll get you a female JW.

Thanks!

Preciousgirl:

Jehova witnesses, you teach that JESUS CHRIST is michael the arch-angel, who was created by God.

fine!

We know God to be all-powerful. And God (Jehovah) is different from Jesus (michael)

fine!

How then do you explain this scripture in your own new world translation, 1 Corinthians 1:24 " However, to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God"

So does that mean michael is the power of Jehovah and wisdom of Jehovah?...That makes michael superior to Jehovah since Jehovah would have no wisdom and power of his own according to your teachings. So what if michael decides to rebel against jehovah just as satan did? Besides, you state in collosians 1:16 of your new world translation that "All other things [/b]were created by him. In him [b]all other things were created."

please what were these other things that were created by michael the arch-angel?, And how do you reconcile this with Isaiah 48:12-13 in your own new world translation " Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I have called. I am the same One.+ I am the first; I am also the last.+
13 + My own hand laid the foundation of the earth, And my right hand spread out the heavens.+ When I call to them, they stand up together."

is your bible lying??

Why do u want to become a jehovahwitness, and what and ow do u believe before?

vfactor:
Genesis 1:26 clearly explains Colossians 1:16. To explain, to build a house u need an architect and a builder. The architect is the over all and the builder 2nd to him. Similarly God is the architect of the universe and everything there in. Jesus (or Michael while in heaven) was the builder. Proverbs 8 describes him as a masterworker. Jesus was the only person directly created by God and therefore is rightly called "the only begotten son" (John 3:16). All other things (angels in the heaven, the universe, the earth and everything in it) were made through him. Jehovah could rightly say his hand laid the foundation of the earth, just like an architect could say, i built this house.

Produce scriptures where it state Jesus as Michael?

PastorOluT:


Produce scriptures where it state Jesus as Michael?

Here is an explanation:

Who Is Michael the Archangel?
THE spirit creature called Michael is not mentioned often in the Bible. However, when he is referred to, he is in action. In the book of Daniel, Michael is battling wicked angels; in the letter of Jude, he is disputing with Satan; and in Revelation, he is waging war with the Devil and his demons. By defending Jehovah’s rulership and fighting God’s enemies, Michael lives up to the meaning of his name—“Who Is Like God?” But who is Michael?

At times, individuals are known by more than one name. For example, the patriarch Jacob is also known as Israel, and the apostle Peter, as Simon. (Genesis 49:1, 2; Matthew 10:2) Likewise, the Bible indicates that Michael is another name for Jesus Christ, before and after his life on earth. Let us consider Scriptural reasons for drawing that conclusion.

Archangel. God’s Word refers to Michael “the archangel.” (Jude 9) This term means “chief angel.” Notice that Michael is called the archangel. This suggests that there is only one such angel. In fact, the term “archangel” occurs in the Bible only in the singular, never in the plural. Moreover, Jesus is linked with the office of archangel. Regarding the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 states: “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice.” Thus the voice of Jesus is described as being that of an archangel. This scripture therefore suggests that Jesus himself is the archangel Michael.

Army Leader. The Bible states that “Michael and his angels battled with the dragon . . . and its angels.” (Revelation 12:7) Thus, Michael is the Leader of an army of faithful angels. Revelation also describes Jesus as the Leader of an army of faithful angels. (Revelation 19:14-16) And the apostle Paul specifically mentions “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7) So the Bible speaks of both Michael and “his angels” and Jesus and “his angels.” (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31; 1 Peter 3:22) Since God’s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven—one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus—it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role.a

vfactor:



Here is an explanation:

Smile, only one verse flaw all u put up there, Hebrews 1. It is belittling and insulting to call Jesus an angel, it shows u know so little about the xtian faith.

So who is Melchizedec, another name for Michael/Jesus?

Preciousgirl:

Jehova witnesses, you teach that JESUS CHRIST is michael the arch-angel, who was created by God.

fine!

We know God to be all-powerful. And God (Jehovah) is different from Jesus (michael)

fine!

How then do you explain this scripture in your own new world translation, 1 Corinthians 1:24 " However, to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God"

So does that mean michael is the power of Jehovah and wisdom of Jehovah?...That makes michael superior to Jehovah since Jehovah would have no wisdom and power of his own according to your teachings. So what if michael decides to rebel against jehovah just as satan did? Besides, you state in collosians 1:16 of your new world translation that "All other things [/b]were created by him. In him [b]all other things were created."

please what were these other things that were created by michael the arch-angel?, And how do you reconcile this with Isaiah 48:12-13 in your own new world translation " Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I have called. I am the same One.+ I am the first; I am also the last.+
13 + My own hand laid the foundation of the earth, And my right hand spread out the heavens.+ When I call to them, they stand up together."

is your bible lying??

If you want an accurate knowledge about Jehovahs witnesses, visit

www.jwfacts.com

PastorOluT:


Smile, only one verse flaw all u put up there, Hebrews 1. It is belittling and insulting to call Jesus an angel, it shows u know so little about the xtian faith.

So who is Melchizedec, another name for Michael/Jesus?

Was Melchizedek Jesus? Nope. That scriptures say Jesus is a high Priest in the MANNER of Melchizedek. That is Jesus is both King and High priest at the same time. No other person other than Melchizedek had been such. In Israel, the role of king and preist were separate and held by different persons.

If you knew the meaning of the word angel, u wouldn't call it an insult. Besides Michael is the arch angel, not just an angel.

op

Beware! It is only from the sites I gave above you can get authoritative information about JWs, if you check other sites, you are no longer getting a good info about the Witnesses.

Again, your questions will be answered if you choose any of the suggestions I gave above. Witnesses know how to prove there faith biblically, but its better done in a good atmosphere.

PastorOluT:


Produce scriptures where it state Jesus as Michael?

There isn't any.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person ...

And so He isn't an Angel, also:

Heb_1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

A dog begets a dog,
a human begets A human,
God begets God, He cannot beget an Angel,
He can create an Angel, and He did.

vfactor:



Who Is Michael the Archangel?
THE spirit creature called Michael is not mentioned often in the Bible. However, when he is referred to, he is in action. In the book of Daniel, Michael is battling wicked angels; in the letter of Jude, he is disputing with Satan; and in Revelation, he is waging war with the Devil and his demons. By defending Jehovah’s rulership and fighting God’s enemies, Michael lives up to the meaning of his name—“Who Is Like God?” But who is Michael?

At times, individuals are known by more than one name. For example, the patriarch Jacob is also known as Israel, and the apostle Peter, as Simon. (Genesis 49:1, 2; Matthew 10:2) Likewise, the Bible indicates that Michael is another name for Jesus Christ, before and after his life on earth. Let us consider Scriptural reasons for drawing that conclusion.

Archangel. God’s Word refers to Michael “the archangel.” (Jude 9) This term means “chief angel.” Notice that Michael is called the archangel. This suggests that there is only one such angel. In fact, the term “archangel” occurs in the Bible only in the singular, never in the plural. Moreover, Jesus is linked with the office of archangel. Regarding the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 states: “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice.” Thus the voice of Jesus is described as being that of an archangel. This scripture therefore suggests that Jesus himself is the archangel Michael.

Army Leader. The Bible states that “Michael and his angels battled with the dragon . . . and its angels.” (Revelation 12:7) Thus, Michael is the Leader of an army of faithful angels. Revelation also describes Jesus as the Leader of an army of faithful angels. (Revelation 19:14-16) And the apostle Paul specifically mentions “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7) So the Bible speaks of both Michael and “his angels” and Jesus and “his angels.” (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31; 1 Peter 3:22) Since God’s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven—one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus—it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role.a

The archangel Michael I believe, is the Angel of the Lord.
God gave Revelation to Jesus and Jesus sent it by His Angel to John. Revelation 1:1

Angel of the Lord, not Angel is the Lord.



1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

For the Lord Himself (the Word-Jesus Christ kurios) shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (God-theos): and the dead in Christ shall rise first

If the Lord kurios is the archangel because he descends with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, then the Lord kurios is also God YAHOVAH theos, because He has the trump of God theos.

He may well be Yahovah, But He is not the archangel.

And Christians know that God and the Word are two persons, One God. John 1:1


Michael and his Angels battles satan and his angels and throws him down to Earth.
Michael is chiel of the angels so there is nothing wrong with calling them his Angels.

The Word of God returns to Earth with all His Saints, and His mighty Angels as well.
The Word of God created the angels so there is nothing wrong with calling them His Angels.

Heb_1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Michael the archangel and Jesus Christ (kurios) are diffrent persons.

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord (kurios) rebuke thee.

Michael asked the Lord the Word Jesus Christ to rebuke the devil.



Michael is not the only archangel:

Dan_10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia

vfactor:


Was Melchizedek Jesus? Nope. That scriptures say Jesus is a high Priest in the MANNER of Melchizedek. That is Jesus is both King and High priest at the same time. No other person other than Melchizedek had been such. In Israel, the role of king and preist were separate and held by different persons.

If you knew the meaning of the word angel, u wouldn't call it an insult. Besides Michael is the arch angel, not just an angel.

Smile, so u know Jesus aint Melchisedec which fit more, but Michael an angel with ur logic?

Jesus ain't Michael nor Melchisedec, also note that melchisedec was not an angel but an high priest, king of salem/peace/righteousness.

So my question again who is melchisedec? And to add, is he greater/lesser than the angels according to scriptures?

johnw74:



There isn't any.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person ...

And so He isn't an Angel, also:

Heb_1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

A dog begets a dog,
a human begets A human,
God begets God, He cannot beget an Angel,
He can create an Angel, and He did.

cc vfactor

johnw74:
Michael the archangel and Jesus Christ (kurios) are diffrent persons.

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord (kurios) rebuke thee.

Michael asked the Lord the Word Jesus Christ to rebuke the devil.



Michael is not the only archangel:

Dan_10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia

cc vfactor

I especially wanted to quote this scripture for u, Michael ain't the only arch angel.

What do u people intend to prove by making Jesus an angel, so u all could continue with ur doctrines?

NB u guys should stop twisting the bible to fit in ur doctrines, bt rather twist ur doctrines to fit in the bible. How many times have u people changes ur doctrines? Think about this maybe u are new in JW @ vfactor

johnw74:



There isn't any.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person ...

And so He isn't an Angel, also:

Heb_1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

A dog begets a dog,
a human begets A human,
God begets God, He cannot beget an Angel,
He can create an Angel, and He did.

I'd like to point out a flaw in your explanation.

Pls read the following scriptures;
Gen 6:2 and compare it with Jude vs 6.
Also read Job 1:6 & 38:7.

But for convenience sake I'll quote Gen 6:2 (KJV).

That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

From the scripture above, angels are sons of God. Calling Jesus the archangel doesn't make any less the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of God.

PastorOluT:


cc vfactor

I especially wanted to quote this scripture for u, Michael ain't the only arch angel.

What do u people intend to prove by making Jesus an angel, so u all could continue with ur doctrines?

NB u guys should stop twisting the bible to fit in ur doctrines, bt rather twist ur doctrines to fit in the bible. How many times have u people changes ur doctrines? Think about this maybe u are new in JW @ vfactor

My dear Pastor, we do not have point to prove other than what the scriptures say. If Jesus is Michael the archangel, then we have much to learn about him during his life in heaven before coming to the earth. This knowledge only add to our appreciation of how humble and faithful our saviour has been thru out his existence.

True the witnesses have adjusted their understanding of the scriptures over the years. We do not twist our believes to suit the scriptures but rather believe what we understand from the scriptures and adjust this believes when our understanding increases. This has enabled us to discern the will of God concerning matters such as christian neutrality, use of tobacco, spiritual and moral cleanliness, etc.

Adjustment to understanding is not new. Jesus had to adjust the understanding of his disciples just before going to heaven Act 1:6-8. Apollos' understanding of the scriptures had to be adjusted by Priscilla and Aquila. So it not new. Its better than holding on to dogma that have no scriptural proofs and bending the scriptures to suit them. Don't u agree? Dogmas like immortality of the soul, the trinity, etc, has been shown to be false when considered in the light of the entire bible. Yet in other not "change" such teachings has continued to be taught and scriptures bent to suit them, even when they have cause much confusion to those who believe and teach them.

vfactor:



My dear Pastor, we do not have point to prove other than what the scriptures say. If Jesus is Michael the archangel, then we have much to learn about him during his life in heaven before coming to the earth. This knowledge only add to our appreciation of how humble and faithful our saviour has been thru out his existence.

True the witnesses have adjusted their understanding of the scriptures over the years. We do not twist our believes to suit the scriptures but rather believe what we understand from the scriptures and adjust this believes when our understanding increases. This has enabled us to discern the will of God concerning matters such as christian neutrality, use of tobacco, spiritual and moral cleanliness, etc.

Adjustment to understanding is not new. Jesus had to adjust the understanding of his disciples just before going to heaven Act 1:6-8. Apollos' understanding of the scriptures had to be adjusted by Priscilla and Aquila. So it not new. Its better than holding on to dogma that have no scriptural proofs and bending the scriptures to suit them. Don't u agree? Dogmas like immortality of the soul, the trinity, etc, has been shown to be false when considered in the light of the entire bible. Yet in other not "change" such teachings has continued to be taught and scriptures bent to suit them, even when they have cause much confusion to those who believe and teach them.

U are very very wrong with the example u gave about the apostles, their knowledge wernt adjusted but increased; they had little knowledge before they saw more light, not changing to n fro. Now u might want to argue semantics, maybe I shouldnt have used adjusted but change, u guys have been changing ur doctrines over the years even with ur so called scriptural backings. Even this issue of Jesus being Michael, u guys only recently came back to it. It was never on record that the desciples were changing the truth of the scriptures (except the false ones anyways), even when they dont have enough light in an area they are silent. Take for instance Peter, he said Paul wrote some things which where hard to understand that some unlearned had twisted to their own peril 2Peter3:15-18.

If Jesus was an angel why didnt d scripture say but rather it says otherwise?

vfactor:



I'd like to point out a flaw in your explanation.

Pls read the following scriptures;
Gen 6:2 and compare it with Jude vs 6.
Also read Job 1:6 & 38:7.

But for convenience sake I'll quote Gen 6:2 (KJV).

From the scripture above, angels are sons of God. Calling Jesus the archangel doesn't make any less the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of God.

With this it shows ur understanding of the scripture is shallow, how can u equate angels being called the sons of God in the old Testament with Jesus being begotten Son?

Dont u know what got Jesus killed? He called Himself the son of God and the Pharisee said He was equating Himself as God (note, not angels). No one born of a women (flesh) could be called son of God then, but when Jesus came to die for our sin and restore us back to the father we all also became the sons of God.

Also no angel was ever reffered to as begotten son (very different from sons of God meaning supernatural being then to the Jews), but rather angels were only reffered to as sons of God with the understanding of their power. But in the case of Jesus who was never created (yes quote me and I will give u scriptures), as a result of His position in the Godhead which was why is sacrifice was accepted n we all can become fellow heirs with Him.

If Jesus was an angel, why didnt the other angels become fellow heirs as us?

PastorOluT:


With this it shows ur understanding of the scripture is shallow, how can u equate angels being called the sons of God in the old Testament with Jesus being begotten Son?

Dont u know what got Jesus killed? He called Himself the son of God and the Pharisee said He was equating Himself as God (note, not angels). No one born of a women (flesh) could be called son of God then, but when Jesus came to die for our sin and restore us back to the father we all also became the sons of God.

Also no angel was ever reffered to as begotten son (very different from sons of God meaning supernatural being then to the Jews), but rather angels were only reffered to as sons of God with the understanding of their power. But in the case of Jesus who was never created (yes quote me and I will give u scriptures), as a result of His position in the Godhead which was why is sacrifice was accepted n we all can become fellow heirs with Him.

If Jesus was an angel, why didnt the other angels become fellow heirs as us?

You don't seem to get the point, do you? The person I quoted earlier implied that since the bible refers to Jesus as the son of God, that he couldn't be an angel. I quoted those scriptures to point to the fact that an angel can be/is a son of God. Only Jesus is refered as the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. Note the words only begotten. This differentiates Jesus from the other spirit sons of God.


I will suggest you look up the root Hebrew and Greek words for angel to see that if Jesus is refered to as the archangel, it is in no way demeaning.


Whether Jesus equated himself to God is an issue for another day.

PastorOluT:


U are very very wrong with the example u gave about the apostles, their knowledge wernt adjusted but increased; they had little knowledge before they saw more light, not changing to n fro. Now u might want to argue semantics, maybe I shouldnt have used adjusted but change, u guys have been changing ur doctrines over the years even with ur so called scriptural backings. Even this issue of Jesus being Michael, u guys only recently came back to it. It was never on record that the desciples were changing the truth of the scriptures (except the false ones anyways), even when they dont have enough light in an area they are silent. Take for instance Peter, he said Paul wrote some things which where hard to understand that some unlearned had twisted to their own peril 2Peter3:15-18.

If Jesus was an angel why didnt d scripture say but rather it says otherwise?

cc vfactor

johnw74:



There isn't any.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person ...

And so He isn't an Angel, also:

Heb_1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

A dog begets a dog,
a human begets A human,
God begets God, He cannot beget an Angel,
He can create an Angel, and He did.

Jesus enjoyed great privileges among Jehovah's sons. This is with good reason because Jehovah taught him to be such a unique son.

But what do you think the word "angel" mean as used in the bible?

As for Hebrew 1:5, it isn't a good proof. one can say that the answer to the question is Jesus.

Does the psalmist have in mind of God begeting God in Psalm 2:7? {but of course the word "God"(elohim) can be used for Jesus and others.}

johnw74:
Michael the archangel and Jesus Christ (kurios) are diffrent persons.

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord (kurios) rebuke thee.

Michael asked the Lord the Word Jesus Christ to rebuke the devil.

Sir, Jude quoted an OT scripture where the divine name appeared. The correct thing should be "YHWH rebuke you". consult cross references.

Michael is not the only archangel:

Dan_10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia

What occurred here is " princes", not archangels. Have you seen where the word "archangels" (emphasis on plural) occurred in the bible before?

There could be more than one princes, but not more than one archangels.

JMAN05:


Sir, Jude quoted an OT scripture where the divine name appeared. The correct thing should be "YHWH rebuke you". consult cross references.



What occurred here is " princes", not archangels. Have you seen where the word "archangels" (emphasis on plural) occurred in the bible before?

There could be more than one princes, but not more than one archangels.

So going by ur rationale, Michael is one of the chief princes, meaning he is not the only chief prince. So that would negate the theory that Jesus is the only begotten son if He is Michael?

PastorOluT:


U are very very wrong with the example u gave about the apostles, their knowledge wernt adjusted but increased; they had little knowledge before they saw more light, not changing to n fro. Now u might want to argue semantics, maybe I shouldnt have used adjusted but change, u guys have been changing ur doctrines over the years even with ur so called scriptural backings. Even this issue of Jesus being Michael, u guys only recently came back to it. It was never on record that the desciples were changing the truth of the scriptures (except the false ones anyways), even when they dont have enough light in an area they are silent. Take for instance Peter, he said Paul wrote some things which where hard to understand that some unlearned had twisted to their own peril 2Peter3:15-18.

If Jesus was an angel why didnt d scripture say but rather it says otherwise?

Your position is respected sir, even if I disagree with your points. We all have our rights to a belief, however, What do u understand by the word "angel" as used in the scriptures?

PastorOluT:


So going by ur rationale, Michael is one of the chief princes, meaning he is not the only chief prince. So that would negate the theory that Jesus is the only begotten son if He is Michael?

I dont get u sir.

JMAN05:


I dont get u sir.

I think thats clear enough, U said one of the chief princes according to the scriptures right? So that makes him not the only chief prince, so if he has others with him in that postion then he cant be Jesus cos Jesus is the only one in His position as the Prince of peace and only begotten son of God.

vfactor:



I'd like to point out a flaw in your explanation.

Pls read the following scriptures;
Gen 6:2 and compare it with Jude vs 6.
Also read Job 1:6 & 38:7.

But for convenience sake I'll quote Gen 6:2 (KJV).

From the scripture above, angels are sons of God. Calling Jesus the archangel doesn't make any less the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of God.

God created the Angels, Angels can be called sons of God,
there is only one begotten son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ (the Word)
God said He has never called an Angel His only begotten son.

JMAN05:


Your position is respected sir, even if I disagree with your points. We all have our rights to a belief, however, What do u understand by the word "angel" as used in the scriptures?

Thats not the point bro, if u start looking at semantics it wont change their functions. Angels are all ministering spirit for us Hebrews 1:14.

NB Take not of the word 'all' ministering spirit!

JMAN05:


Jesus enjoyed great privileges among Jehovah's sons. This is with good reason because Jehovah taught him to be such a unique son.

But what do you think the word "angel" mean as used in the bible?

As for Hebrew 1:5, it isn't a good proof. one can say that the answer to the question is Jesus.

Does the psalmist have in mind of God begeting God in Psalm 2:7? {but of course the word "God"(elohim) can be used for Jesus and others.}

Hebrews 1:5 is plain sense scripture, You don't believe it because it goes against your doctrine.
you should do what PastorOluT said and change your doctrine to suit Bible scripture.

johnw74:


The archangel Michael I believe, is the Angel of the Lord.
God gave Revelation to Jesus and Jesus sent it by His Angel to John. Revelation 1:1

Angel of the Lord, not Angel is the Lord.



1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

For the Lord Himself (the Word-Jesus Christ kurios) shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (God-theos): and the dead in Christ shall rise first

If the Lord kurios is the archangel because he descends with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, then the Lord kurios is also God YAHOVAH theos, because He has the trump of God theos.

He may well be Yahovah, But He is not the archangel.

And Christians know that God and the Word are two persons, One God. John 1:1


Michael and his Angels battles satan and his angels and throws him down to Earth.
Michael is chiel of the angels so there is nothing wrong with calling them his Angels.

The Word of God returns to Earth with all His Saints, and His mighty Angels as well.
The Word of God created the angels so there is nothing wrong with calling them His Angels.

Heb_1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Can I ask you this: Jesus' voice and that of any angel at all, which one is more powerful?

From John 5:28, whose voice will call up the dead?