Demmzy15:

When Muslims were expanding into Europe, they were stopped in France in the 8th century. The first Crusade was called by Pope Urban II about 200years later, when Muslims and Christians lived peacefully. They captured Jerusalem in 1096AD,before they captured Jerusalem they laid seige on Marra. They then entered the city and there was famine, they resulted to cannibalism, they started eating the dead bodies of Arabs(Muslims and Christians) and turks!! Are these the individuals, you should be proud of?!

The war between Muslims and the Roman empire all started when they wanted to end the Muslims during the time of Prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam), you even lied when you said the Crusade was called because Muslims killed pilgrims??!! My friend the Crusaders were ones who stopped Muslim pilgrims when they(Crusaders) captured Egypt, they stop Muslims who were going to Mecca and killed all of them!

There was freedom of religion in the Muslim Jerusalem, no one was denied pilgrimage. In fact no one paid for pilgrimage, when Muslims tried to take over Christian or Jewish sites they were punished! To try to show that Muslims are the bad guys, here is a link showing modern Christians apologizing to Muslims for the Crusaders actions http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/1996/october7/6tb090.html#bmb=1

since you have resorted to inaccuracies, allow me to correct you, the muslims and Christian never lived peacefully before the crusade infact in 1009 the muslims distroyed the church of the holy sepulche, that is the church built on the burial tomb of Jesus, the site of his ressurrection.

You also forgot to add that the muslims were fighting within themselves , infact the seljuq conquest was killed as much muslims as he did Christian and jews. Seljuq conquest and occupation of Palestine(c. 1073–1098) was a period of
"slaughter and vandalism, of economic hardship, and the uprooting of populations". Indeed, drawing upon earlier writers such as Ignatius of Melitene, Michael the Syrian had recorded that the Seljuqs subjected Coele-Syria and
the Palestinian coast to "cruel destruction and pillage".

So that is what the muslims did, they will busy killing their enemies and each other, killing, pillaging, vandalising, distroying.

My dear, i believe that there were excesses even in the crusades, but the muslim ruler were no better, they were a group of men happy to kill each other, oppress and muder both jews and christians.

MarieSucre:
Where is the evidence for such an assertion?

People as too many questions because the left many knowledge unacquainted, many books unread...

How do i begin to teach you now..thinkinggggggg....

Ok...Oya say A.....B......C.....D

Shubbylee:


yeah true!! but its so sad to see that Islam has been associated with backwardness nowadays!!

That is in your own bracket of ill orientation.

What does civilization means to you? probably,Partying hard, dressing trendy,gathering certificates and driving best of cars right?

Common! Civilization means knowing your creator, respecting his words and living within His rules. Not how much money you have...wake up

anonimi:
Since when did Moors of North African become Negroes of sub-Saharan Africa

How many people are aware of how Blacks are racially discriminated against in Libya, Morocco, Algeria, Egypt etc?

Hard to believe that there is discrimination against Black people in North Africa, because the Moors were always Black people. They only started looking White after having so many White women in their harems. The Moors would just raid towns in Europe to get White women or they would buy them off of the Slave markets.

http://www.realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/True_Negros/Assorted/Paintings_3.htm

SirShymexx:


Stop twisting history like you always do. I thought by now, you should've educated yourself a bit - but old habits never die like they say.

Who organised the Council of Nicea in 325AD?

Who founded Constantinople, for the new Christian Capital/City?

Whether he fully converted or not, can be debated. However, he did favour the Christian-cult, and played a major role in the growth of Christianity. Yes, he did persecute Christians before that - but that doesn't negate the role he played afterwards.

Who changed the Holy date of worship from Saturday (Sabbath); to Sunday, which is the pagan Roman date of worship?

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception-Sabbath_change_Constantine

AkanIgbo:


Hard to believe that there is discrimination against Black people in North Africa, because the Moors were always Black people. They only started looking White after having so many White women in their harems. The Moors would just raid towns in Europe to get White women or they would buy them off of the Slave markets.

http://www.realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/True_Negros/Assorted/Paintings_3.htm

Lol. Its hard for you to believe because you do NOT live here. The fact that you've read all the history books in your library doesn't gurantee you of knowledge of what is actually going on PRESENTLY.

I really believe you need to get out of the past and come and live in Africa for some years so you can truly understand what is going on.

What annoys me is the fact that you think that we in Africa do not know history of black Americans of America as a whole. We know the past but even more importantly, we know EXACTLY what is going on here PRESENTLY

hahn:


Lol. Its hard for you to believe because you do NOT live here. The fact that you've read all the history books in your library doesn't gurantee you of knowledge of what is actually going on PRESENTLY.

I really believe you need to get out of the past and come and live in Africa for some years so you can truly understand what is going on.

What annoys me is the fact that you think that we in Africa do not know history of black Americans of America as a whole. We know the past but even more importantly, we know EXACTLY what is going on here PRESENTLY

I was just very surprised about some of the stuff that I saw you write. I have never met any African that thought that way, because all of the Africans that I know are very self sufficient and they have pride in their people. I guess that I learn something everyday.

bigfrancis21:
The Great Mosque of Cordoba in its beauty and splendour, one of the two ancient buildings and civilizations left behind by the Moors of Spain:




The Alhambra, a Moorish structure of mathematical complexity, magnificence and marvelous beauty built by the mighty black rulers of spain, is a great tourist destination site today with about 8,000 visitors everyday:

Waaow! Splendid!

Fulaman198:


How exactly are you 'outying' me with false testimonies? If you were to say Fulani have only been in Nigeria since the 1700s you would have been correct. What you don't realize is that Fulani people were on other parts of west Africa (especially Senegal, Mauritania, Mali, etc) way long before arriving in Nigeria on Camel and horseback.

The whole admixture stuff is and was bull crap as most White scientists have admitted. Sorry that we all can't look like Bantus like you would have wanted. However we are still black.

The admixture talk was just whites trying to claim Fulani people.

Just want to know what are the exacts relations between bantus and fulanis?According to some linguists ,there are significant relations between bantu languages and Fulani language.It seems that at some point in the past ,bantus and fulanis had vey deep relations.I am wondering if the extent of the bantus expansion has always been underestimate.Did bantus reach places as far as fouta jalon?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Les-prefixes-nominaux-des-les-parler-peuls-haoussa-et-bantous-/230913956570
http://historyofislam.com/contents/resistance-and-reform/uthman-dan-fuduye/

sonzo666:

Just want to know what are the exacts relations between bantus and fulanis?According to some linguists ,there are significant relations between bantu languages and Fulani language.It seems that at some point in the past ,bantus and fulanis had vey deep relations.I am wondering if the extent of the bantus expansion has always been underestimate.Did bantus reach places as far as fouta jalon?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Les-prefixes-nominaux-des-les-parler-peuls-haoussa-et-bantous-/230913956570
http://historyofislam.com/contents/resistance-and-reform/uthman-dan-fuduye/

Loll this is a joke right? Is that you Axum? There is no relation

Fulaman198:


Loll this is a joke right? Is that you Axum? There is no relation

NOT ME FULA, I NEVER HIDE MY IDENTITY.

ITS GOOD TO SEE UR ALIVE FULA

axum:



NOT ME FULA, I NEVER HIDE MY IDENTITY.

ITS GOOD TO SEE UR ALIVE FULA

Same to you

Fulaman198:


Loll this is a joke right? Is that you Axum? There is no relation

I know what you are thinking,but that is not what I am thinking of!It is obvious that bantus and fulanis are two totally distinct races,but that doesn't mean they cant have something in common.So don't become emotional!It is all good:You aren't bantus and you don't have to be I was talking about some linguistical patterns observed between the two families of languages by all people who studied them.Whether these groups borrowed from each other our it is pure coincidence,I don't know.But the extensive usage of the prefix "BA" in bantus,hausa and Fulani languages its an attested fact.But everybody knows that prefixing "BA" to words to create plural is a specific characteristic of bantus languages.Did bantus influence the Fulani language via the hausa ?Muntu(bantu) and Mutum(hausa) or Munguna(bantu) and Mungun(hausa0 pretty much mean the same thing.The hausa expression Mutum mungun(wicked man) can be best expressed by the simple bantu word munguna(wicked man).To say mutum mungun is repetitive coz the prefix mu in the word mungun(man/person) is a shortcut for mutum like in muhindi(indian) ,muswahili(a Swahili person),muluba(a luba person)..etc....Mere coincidences?Idont know!

sonzo666:

I know what you are thinking,but that is not what I am thinking of!It is obvious that bantus and fulanis are two totally distinct races,but that doesn't mean they cant have something in common.So don't become emotional!It is all good:You aren't bantus and you don't have to be I was talking about some linguistical patterns observed between the two families of languages by all people who studied them.Whether these groups borrowed from each other our it is pure coincidence,I don't know.But the extensive usage of the prefix "BA" in bantus,hausa and Fulani languages its an attested fact.But everybody knows that prefixing "BA" to words to create plural is a specific characteristic of bantus languages.Did bantus influence the Fulani language via the hausa ?Muntu(bantu) and Mutum(hausa) or Munguna(bantu) and Mungun(hausa0 pretty much mean the same thing.The hausa expression Mutum mungun(wicked man) can be best expressed by the simple bantu word munguna(wicked man).To say mutum mungun is repetitive coz the prefix mu in the word mungun(man/person) is a shortcut for mutum like in muhindi(indian) ,muswahili(a Swahili person),muluba(a luba person)..etc....Mere coincidences?Idont know!

I think it would be very difficult to talk about bantus with west africans since no bantus live there, if there was any exchange then it would have happened before the migration in the pre-sahara period when it was believed to be a lush green paradise.

pkjag:

I think it would be very difficult to talk about bantus with west africans since no bantus live there, if there was any exchange then it would have happened before the migration in the pre-sahara period when it was believed to be a lush green paradise.

Your realise that bantus were the first settlers in the whole niger area.They created the Nok civilization in Nigeria.All other ethnic groups of sudano-sahelian origin(hausas,yorubas,igbos,fulanis..etc..) are later settlers .I am also 90% certain that the dogons are bantus who mixed with sudano-sahelian people.Dogons use the word Baru for human beings!There is nothing more bantu than that!And dogon culture is totally different from all the surrounding cultures (mandes,fulanis,bambaras....etc..).I think that for some unknown reasons,people try to restrain the impact and extent of the bantus expansion.I guess it hard for some people to admit that bantus are the true essence of Africa!

sonzo666:

Your realise that bantus were the first settlers in the whole niger area.They created the Nok civilization in Nigeria.All other ethnic groups of sudano-sahelian origin(hausas,yorubas,igbos,fulanis..etc..) are later settlers .I am also 90% certain that the dogons are bantus who mixed with sudano-sahelian people.Dogons use the word Baru for human beings!There is nothing more bantu than that!And dogon culture is totally different from all the surrounding cultures (mandes,fulanis,bambaras....etc..).I think that for some unknown reasons,people try to restrain the impact and extent of the bantus expansion.I guess it hard for some people to admit that bantus are the true essence of Africa!

The Nok were bantus?? Interesting, do you have a source for that information? And what i meant was that nobody speaks any bantu language in west africa, though some like the Igbo have some words (most common words) similar in structure to bantu morphology.

sonzo666:

Your realise that bantus were the first settlers in the whole niger area.They created the Nok civilization in Nigeria.All other ethnic groups of sudano-sahelian origin(hausas,yorubas,igbos,fulanis..etc..) are later settlers .

So are there any ancient sculptures that resemble the Nok sculptures or even ancient terracotta sculptures that have been found in any of the actual Bantu language areas? There are even other ancient terracotta sculptures besides those of the Nok culture that have been found in Nigeria, but I'm not aware of ancient (by ancient I mean something like 2000+ years old or close to that age) terracotta sculptures that have been found in Bantu language areas, so it would be nice to be enlightened about that.

I am also 90% certain that the dogons are bantus who mixed with sudano-sahelian people.Dogons use the word Baru for human beings!There is nothing more bantu than that!And dogon culture is totally different from all the surrounding cultures (mandes,fulanis,bambaras....etc..)

Which group of Dogon uses "baru" for human beings? There are multiple Dogon groups. For example, none of these four groups (Walo, Beni, Nanga, Jamsay) use that term:

http://dogonlanguages.org/docs/Nanga_Dict_12_2007.pdf
http://dogonlanguages.org/docs/Beni_Dict_12_2007.pdf
http://dogonlanguages.org/docs/Jamsay_vocab.pdf
http://dogonlanguages.org/docs/Walo_Dict_12_2007.pdf

So which group of Dogon are you referring to when you say they use "baru" for human beings?

PhysicsMHD:

So are there any ancient sculptures that resemble the Nok sculptures or even ancient terracotta sculptures that have been found in any of the actual Bantu language areas? There are even other ancient terracotta sculptures besides those of the Nok culture that have been found in Nigeria, but I'm not aware of ancient (by ancient I mean something like 2000+ years old or close to that age) terracotta sculptures that have been found in Bantu language areas, so it would be nice to be enlightened about that.
Which group of Dogon uses "baru" for human beings? There are multiple Dogon groups. For example, none of these four groups (Walo, Beni, Nanga, Jamsay) use that term
So which group of Dogon are you referring to when you say they use "baru" for human beings?

1-I suggest you to google "dogons and olubaru".Olubaru=olu(sacred)+baru(men/human beings).These people initiated to dogons mysteries.

2-You cant contest the fact that bantus were the first settlers in the whole niger area!The Fangs(cameroun and gabon) oral history places their origin in northern part of Nigeria and it talks of terrible battle the fangs waged against people riding on top of strange animals(hausas or fulanis I guess! ).The fact that the Nok civilization suddenly disappeared suggests to me that it was overwhelmed/destroyed /absorbed by external forces.As for the terracottas,if bantus could build the oldest furnaces in Africa,there is no reason they could make terracotta figures.After all,there is not so much talent needed to do so!

Haya people
The Haya people of Tanzania have been linked to one of the greatest scientific breakthroughs of all time: the invention of steel. Archaeologist Peter Schmidt discovered through a literalist combination of archaeology and oral tradition that the Haya had been forging steel for around 2000 years.

This discovery was made accidentally while Schmidt was learning about the history of the Haya via their oral tradition. He was led to a tree which was said to rest on the spot of an ancestral furnace used to forge steel. A group of elders were later tasked with the challenge of recreating the forges.

At this time they were the only ones to remember the practice, which had fallen into disuse due in part to the abundance of steel flowing into the country from foreign sources. In spite of the lack of practice the elders were able to create a furnace using mud and grass which when burned provided the carbon needed to transform the iron into steel. Later investigation of the land yielded 13 other furnaces similar in design to the re-creation set up by the elders. This process is very similar to open hearth furnace steelmaking.

These furnaces were carbon-dated and were found to be as old as 2000 years. Steel of similar quality did not appear in Europe until several centuries later.[5]

References[edit]

1.Jump up ^ "Haya: A language of Tanzania". Ethnologue.
2.Jump up ^ "Haya,an ethnic group of northwestern Tanzania" (HTML). Africana: The Encyclopedia of the African and African American Experience. Retrieved 2007-09-21..
3.Jump up ^ "UGANDA: Profile of Yoweri Kaguta Museveni" (HTML). IRIN Africa humanitarian news analysis. Retrieved 2007-09-21.
4.Jump up

sonzo666:

1-I suggest you to google "dogons and olubaru".Olubaru=olu(sacred)+baru(men/human beings).These people initiated to dogons mysteries.

If indeed Olubaru were to mean "sacred men" (which I do not believe that it does, since you have not supplied evidence that it does, and since I have found a different meaning given by a researcher who has studied their culture) then, based on what I posted earlier, it seems much more likely that the word "human beings" in the word "olubaru" would actually be the "aru" part, not "baru" in its entirety, though we would need an actual Dogon person to confirm this. Also, if one is going to attempt to try to find the etymology of words in a language one has no understanding of, wouldn't it be better to consult a native speaker of such a language or at least some sort of dictionary as reference or to use as "proof"?

And as I said, I was unable to find any confirmation that "olubaru" means "sacred human beings" or "sacred men" after looking up this word as you suggested. Here are some examples of what I found instead:

"In Dogon society there is a further form of segmentation whereby all males, and males only, are either inneomo (living man) or innepuru (dead man). This status is transmitted, not from father to son, but from a recently dead ancestor to a recently born child of the same minor lineage. Each man and woman stands in a special ritual relation to a dead ancestor or ancestress. The term nani is used of the dead ancestor and nani i of the living man or woman. The living nani performs sacrifices to his dead nani to aid him on his journey to heaven. Now if a man's nani were inneomo then one is also inneomo; if he were innepuru then one also is innepuru. The innepuru are lines of nani descending from the first ancestor to die in human form. Paulme says that there are eight adult innepuru in the two Ogols and this corresponds with the eight minor lineages to be found there. (Griaule says that there are thirty-eight innepuru in the two Ogols, while Leiris suggests that there may be eight olubaru in the region of Upper Sanga; the olubaru are chosen from among the innepuru.) The Innepuru are best described, perhaps, as a ritual category of men who, in virtue of their connexion with death, may come into contact with corpses, eat the flesh of animals killed in sacrifice, and build the menstruation huts." - David Tait, "An Analytical Commentary on the Social Structure of the Dogon" (1950)

"It is in the Awa that the innepuru ('dead men') achieve their maximum importance. All initiated Dogon males take part in Awa rites. It is innepuru men, however, who become officers of the society. All initiated men may take part in dances performed during a dama and must be present during the performance of a sigi. It is especially to be noted that women who have married outside Upper Sanga must return to the region during a sigi." - David Tait, "An Analytical Commentary on the Social Structure of the Dogon" (1950)

"The Awa officers are the olubaru, chosen from among the innepuru by the older men who have performed one sigi; the mulono or men who have been present at two sigis; the kabaga, assistants to the olubaru; and yasigine, a priestess. The olubaru undergo a special treatment to learn the myths of the masks, the secret language (sigi so), and the taboos of the masks." - David Tait, "An Analytical Commentary on the Social Structure of the Dogon" (1950)

"Every sixty years, the Dogon hold a ceremony known as the Sigui which celebrates the replacement of one generation by another. Those old men who have participated in two such festivals and are known as mulono, are at the head of the Awa. Behind them in the hierarchy are all those men who have seen one Sigui, the olubaru. At the head of each Awa society is the oldest mulono. Middle-aged men serve as masters of ceremony or dance masters, imina giru, and are responsible for seeing to the correct preparation and evacuation of the masked dances. With each Sigui festival a new group of men of the Awa become olubaru, and learn the secret language of the Sigui." - Pascal James Imperato, Dogon Cliff Dwellers: The Art of Mali's Moutain People (1978)

"It is also important to study another musical instrument, the bullroarer, in terms of the Dogon perspective, and to understand the symbolism of its humming sound. In the region of Sanga, three bullroarers called imina na are carved before the sigi ceremony by its participants. The young initiated dignitaries called olubaru, "masters of the bush," are responsible for the rites pertaining to the "Great Mask" that bears the same name as the bullroarers and that is carved, painted, and consecrated for the ceremony. The olubaru have completed a long retreat, during which they have learned the special language of sigi as well as the handling of the bullroarers, which they generally make hum at night before and during the entire course of the ceremony." - Germaine Dieterlen, "Masks and Mythology among the Dogon" (1989)


This term olubaru, whose meaning has been given above, does not seem to translate to the meaning you gave for it, but if you could provide a source which gives olubaru as literally meaning what you said it does, that would clear things up. Because so far, I think the idea of "olubaru" as "sacred men" is merely descriptive, not an etymology of the word.

Perhaps somebody described the olubaru as the sacred men of the Dogon (which is not truly inaccurate as a description, but does not necessarily mean that that is the literal meaning of the word) and you took that as the literal meaning of the word.

2-You cant contest the fact that bantus were the first settlers in the whole niger area!

I was just seeking an explanation for what significant similarities in material remnants of culture (such as ancient terracotta relics that resemble the Nok terracotta, as a start) you thought there were between Bantu language areas and the Nok culture area of north central Nigeria. I was not necessarily coming out to "oppose" the idea outright though I admit I have never heard of anything like it before (about Bantu language speakers being the first settlers in Nigeria or about the Nok culture having a link to Bantu language speakers). The idea does sound unusual, but that could change if you supply strong evidence to support the idea.

However if I decided to contest this claim, I don't see why I could not contest it. Since there does not actually seem to be anything (as far as material culture) to suggest that speakers of Bantu languages were "the first settlers" in the Nigerian area (I assume you mean the Nigerian area and not the area around the entire Niger river), I don't see why this claim could not be contested. I have no personal preference as to whether the Bantu or non-Bantu language groups of Africa were the first settlers in Nigeria, but I would prefer to see some actual evidence for the claim, before I (or other people) start to accept that the Nok culture's art should be attributed specifically to other areas/cultures outside of the Nigerian area.

The Fangs(cameroun and gabon) oral history places their origin in northern part of Nigeria

So were the ancestors of the Fang people of Cameroon and Gabon responsible for the art? Because I've been looking at Fang art, and I don't see the resemblances with Nok art, whereas there are at least a few resemblances between Nok art and some other west African art. Art historians have noticed some of these similarities, but I don't recall them mentioning much about similarities between Nok art and the art found in Bantu language areas.

and it talks of terrible battle the fangs waged against people riding on top of strange animals(hausas or fulanis I guess! ).

You might not have been aware of this, but there are Nok sculptures which depict some of their people (the Nok culture people) riding "strange animals." Perhaps you should look at more of the art. The Nok culture's people seem to have been very much aware of the existence of "strange animals" which people could ride on.

If riding on "strange animals" is really the mark of "Sudano-Sahelian" groups, then perhaps that is what the Nok were - an ancient "Sudano-Sahelian" culture of north central Nigeria.

The fact that the Nok civilization suddenly disappeared suggests to me that it was overwhelmed/destroyed /absorbed by external forces.

Archaeological research on the Nok culture is still ongoing. Have you read any of the publications on the Nok by researchers? In fact, there was a book that came out near the end of 2014 on just this subject (the archaeology of the Nok terracotta sculptures and the origin and fate of that society). This "sudden disappearance" idea is not set in stone as a fact. I would wait on the archaeological record to show it ('sudden disappearance') decisively, and the archaeological study of that culture is actually quite young.

Also, how do you know that the actual people responsible for that art just "disappeared"? Several of the Nigerian groups that later made artistically sophisticated and detailed art that we know for a fact were responsible for the art found in their areas at one point stopped making such art in later centuries. A significant decline in wealth, societal stability, a loss of internal motivation, or significant conflicts with neighbors are some of the various reasons why a sophisticated art tradition in "medieval" Nigeria (just as in ancient Nigeria) might no longer have been supported by a society's elite, but the fact that a group no longer makes high quality art of a certain type does not mean that that group of people or their culture has "disappeared" or was destroyed. If this were true, very little ancient or "medieval" art in Africa or elsewhere could be ascribed to the cultures that actually produced them.

As for the terracottas,if bantus could build the oldest furnaces in Africa

My question was about regional art trends more than technology actually. There are other terracotta art traditions in West Africa among its non-Bantu language speaking peoples, and a few of these are almost as old as the Nok terracotta tradition, but I don't know of such a trend in the Bantu language regions so I would like to be enlightened about whether there was such a trend in ancient Bantu language areas.

,there is no reason they could make terracotta figures.

We know that Bantu groups could make terracotta figures. The "Lydenburg heads" are one example, and these are the earliest that I know about in the Bantu areas. But the "Lydenburg heads" of southern Africa are far removed from the Nok terracottas in style (in addition to being very far from the Nok area geographically), unlike some of the later art of west Africa, which actually show some similarities (such as in the depiction of the accoutrements of figures depicted) that have been noted by art historians. And in any case, the oldest non-Nok terracotta figures from Nigeria and west Africa seem to be older than the "Lydenburg heads". So what I would really like to know is if there are other ancient (as old or nearly as old as the Nok culture's sculptures) terracotta figures from Bantu language areas of Africa? And do any of these ancient terracotta figures from Bantu language areas - if they exist - show significant resemblances with Nok art in particular?

After all,there is not so much talent needed to do so!

The talent, in the case of the Nok culture, lies not so much in the technology, but rather in the detail, sophistication, refinement, etc. of the art itself, several examples of which are nearly as sophisticated, refined and detailed as some of the best art from the cultures that produced art in later times in Nigeria. If making works of art as accomplished as the Nok art were so easy or required so little talent, every ancient culture in Africa that made any art would have done something similar, but in fact, this was not the case.

As for your reference to the Haya, I know about them already, but the quotes you posted are about steel, not about where the oldest furnaces in Africa were, and in any case, the issue of where the oldest furnaces in Africa were is not really what the point of my earlier questions were. I was really just curious about regional artistic trends.

elopee3000:
Black people did not build all this in black africa only to go to europe and build it story for the gods , mean while some parts of africa re still in darkness very soon they will us how black man rule germany in the year 1333 ad all the will tell us how leonardo da vinci is black man

Excellent comment!

The moors developed europe but decided to leave the rest of africa in backwardnes. What a joke!

hahn:

Excellent comment!
The moors developed europe but decided to leave the rest of africa in backwardnes. What a joke!

This model of thinking is what we don't need, let's see Europe is developed but some of the Eastern European countries have worse conditions, same with the Indians who influenced the Greeks, Persians, Arabs and Chinese. Just because you don't have enough information doesn't give you a reason to comment, you only display your ignorance and embarass yourself online by doing that.

hahn:


Excellent comment!

The moors developed europe but decided to leave the rest of africa in backwardnes. What a joke!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYD9J9Qfe0k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pspFolOHrfI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYYmKd7To04

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfcOLRwTdBg


Dealing with the White man put Africa into backwardness.

PhysicsMHD:

If indeed Olubaru were to mean "sacred men" (which I do not believe that it does, since you have not supplied evidence that it does, and since I have found a different meaning given by a researcher who has studied their culture) then, based on what I posted earlier, it seems much more likely that the word "human beings" in the word "olubaru" would actually be the "aru" part, not "baru" in its entirety, though we would need an actual Dogon person to confirm this. Also, if one is going to attempt to try to find the etymology of words in a language one has no understanding of, wouldn't it be better to consult a native speaker of such a language or at least some sort of dictionary as reference or to use as "proof"?

How can "aru" means "human beings"?
Muntu=human being ===>bantu=human beings
Moro=human being ====>baro=human beings
Muru=human beings ====>baru=human beings
In many bantu words,o=u and t=r ===>mukongo=mokongo;moswahili=muswahili; kamerhe=kamete ....etc ,,,
The kinirwanda for example makes extensive use of "r" whereas the kikongo replaces "r" by "t"
The "olu" prefix is used in many bantu words and means master/god .For example in the word olueme, olu=god and eme=judgement.This implies that olueme=ordeal/ordalie in French.
Olume/olumi===>olu(god/master) + me/mi(my)===>my god/my master
I don't know where you get the idea that "aru" can means " human beings".Can you elaborate on that?
Moreover,dogon toponyms such as badiangara/badiagana,sangha,bongo are mostly found in bantu areas.Simple coincidence?I doubt!It is impossible to find a west African with a name like badiagana.You can always try!
I always take with suspicion European historians traduction of African words!

PhysicsMHD:

So were the ancestors of the Fang people of Cameroon and Gabon responsible for the art? Because I've been looking at Fang art, and I don't see the resemblances with Nok art, whereas there are at least a few resemblances between Nok art and some other west African art.

I didn't say fangs were the creators of the Nok culture!I refered to fangs oral history to show that bantus used to occupy a wider area of nigera that what the majority of history books suggest.As far as I know,almost all Nigerian ethnic groups(hausas,fulanis,igbos,yorubas,binis,etc....) claim an outside origin and their oral histories suggest they weren't the first settlers in Nigeria.The question is who where the first settlers?We know for sure that bantus were in Nigeria coz that where their origin seems to be.And if bantus went on to conquer half of Africa,I cant see them not occupying the whole Nigeria.As far I am concerned,Nok culture fell victim of a more powerful and vicious external force and got destroyed/absorbed .I cant see that much similitudes between nok esthetic and Yoruba or bini esthetics"Kongo people were very famous for producing all types of clothes,but they lost all that technology when they started trading with portugueses.So the Nok case is not a one off in Africa history.

hahn:


Excellent comment!

The moors developed europe but decided to leave the rest of africa in backwardnes. What a joke!

nna men I tire oo person no get car then go buy car for a bagger where e dey happen for this planet

Back to my regular username.

sonzo666:


How can "aru" means "human beings"?
Muntu=human being ===>bantu=human beings
Moro=human being ====>baro=human beings
Muru=human beings ====>baru=human beings
In many bantu words,o=u and t=r ===>mukongo=mokongo;moswahili=muswahili; kamerhe=kamete ....etc ,,,
The kinirwanda for example makes extensive use of "r" whereas the kikongo replaces "r" by "t"
The "olu" prefix is used in many bantu words and means master/god .For example in the word olueme, olu=god and eme=judgement.This implies that olueme=ordeal/ordalie in French.
Olume/olumi===>olu(god/master) + me/mi(my)===>my god/my master
I don't know where you get the idea that "aru" can means " human beings".Can you elaborate on that?
Moreover,dogon toponyms such as badiangara/badiagana,sangha,bongo are mostly found in bantu areas.Simple coincidence?I doubt!It is impossible to find a west African with a name like badiagana.You can always try!
I always take with suspicion European historians traduction of African words!

Sure, I can elaborate. Based on the links I posted earlier of some actual Dogon languages, one might think a word closer to "aru" could be human being or person in a Dogon language (perhaps as some sort of dialect variation), but there would be no reason yet to think that "baru" specifically could be a word for human being in those languages. I don't see why you think it matters yet what "baru" means in some Bantu languages when the issue is to first determine which words mean human being, person, or man in all Dogon languages before proceeding to make comparisons. So far I have seen nothing to suggest that "baru" or "baro" or "bantu" is the word for human beings in a Dogon language, because you have not shown any evidence to support that idea.

If "olu" means master or god or something similar in several Bantu languages, what makes you think that this is an exclusively "Bantu" feature which must be indicative of Bantu origin whenever it is seen? You also mentioned "me/mi" as meaning "my" and that is definitely not an exclusively Bantu linguistic feature, as many languages from other African language groups have a similar or identical word for the same thing.

And I don't see what the relevance of a few specific coincidences in names is as far as indicating ethnic origin. Coincidences in names across different ethnic groups and language groups are found all the time in names in Africa and elsewhere. So far nobody has shown that Dogon vocabulary and grammar are closer to Bantu languages than to non Bantu languages.

I didn't say fangs were the creators of the Nok culture!I refered to fangs oral history to show that bantus used to occupy a wider area of nigera that what the majority of history books suggest.

So one could equally say that some non-Bantu west Africans used to occupy a wider area of Africa than the majority of history books suggest based on some origin stories of origin outside of west Africa, and therefore claim that much of Africa was originally "non-Bantu west African" occupied territory. In which case, one could then just claim that non-Bantu west Africans were responsible for whatever other particular ancient art or relics scattered throughout Africa that one wants to claim.

As far as I know,almost all Nigerian ethnic groups(hausas,fulanis,igbos,yorubas,binis,etc....) claim an outside origin and their oral histories suggest they weren't the first settlers in Nigeria.

So what major significance does this have in the context of the Nok? There are lots of ethnic groups in Nigeria, and we don't even know for certain that the ethnic identities of today were solidified/definite back at the time of the Nok culture. And for all we know the ethnic group of the Nok could simply be ancestral to some ethnic groups found today in north central Nigeria.

Since you admit that it is not all Nigerian groups that claim an outside origin, anyone could equally claim that some ethnic groups of Nigeria who claim to be autochthonous were the first to settle in Nigeria or were responsible for the Nok culture. Note that being first to settle in Nigeria and being responsible for the Nok culture are not necessarily the same thing, though you have been associating them as being necessarily connected.

The question is who where the first settlers?

I haven't come across any method that can be used to determine exactly who the first settlers in Nigeria were in terms of linguistic groups or ethnic groups.

We know for sure that bantus were in Nigeria coz that where their origin seems to be

Even if we take it as a fact that Bantu language groups originated somewhere around the southern Nigerian/Cameroonian border, that doesn't prove anything about the Nok culture, as the Nok culture is in north central Nigeria, and the people of the Nok culture could just have come to the north central Nigerian area from an eastern, western, northern, northeastern or northwestern direction from some other populations that belonged to some linguistic group besides the Bantu linguistic group.

And if bantus went on to conquer half of Africa,I cant see them not occupying the whole Nigeria.

So I take it that during the time of the Nok culture, the ancestors of present day Nigerians were in Kyrgyzstan, Sweden, Oman and Luxembourg while Bantu groups were occupying all of Nigeria. . .but then most of the proto-Nigerian groups stormed into western Africa from thousands of miles away and drove all the Bantu groups out of the Nigerian area with unstoppable fighters using gigantic scimitars (now lost), rhinoceros cavalry charges (now unknown), ancient jeet kune do (now unknown), bronze trebuchets (now lost), trained war leopards (now extinct), and perhaps some poisoned tridents for good measure. . .and did all of this so rapidly and with such ferocity as to force the Bantu groups to flee the proto-Nigerian onslaught in a mass migration as fast as their feet could take them into other parts of Africa. . .

But on a more serious note, if West Africans don't originate from western Africa as most people think, then one could just as easily claim they occupied most of the other areas of Africa after they left eastern Africa, before they got to western Africa, and that whatever is found in west Africa (such as the Nok culture's art) in later times is just what they started doing when they finally stopped roaming and settled down. I mean, anyone can make up highly speculative scenarios that aren't really based on anything. It's not going to convince anyone though.

As far I am concerned,Nok culture fell victim of a more powerful and vicious external force and got destroyed/absorbed

It's just not the case that every culture that made high quality art of a certain type for a while but then later stopped was destroyed/absorbed by outsiders.

I cant see that much similitudes between nok esthetic and Yoruba or bini esthetics

That's fine. I can't see much similarity between the Nok aesthetic and the aesthetic of any art from Bantu language areas, which is part of what caused me to ask the questions I asked in my first post to you. But this is all a matter of perception, so we don't have to agree.

Kongo people were very famous for producing all types of clothes,but they lost all that technology when they started trading with portugueses.So the Nok case is not a one off in Africa history.

Perhaps Bantu language groups eventually lost the know how and the inclination to make art that strongly resembles the Nok art, and perhaps non-Bantu language groups in West Africa eventually lost the know how and technology to make huge pyramids. It's just mere speculation at this point.

I think that if you really believe this Bantu Nok theory you should probably look for better arguments and evidence to support your idea, because I don't think the scenario you've constructed so far sounds believable.

The ba prefix is probably of araboid or berber origin, as we see from names like ibn batuta, etc.


English also has some ba words derived from old latin and germanoid/french languages eg baron which meant warrior or nobleman.

tpiadotcom:
The ba prefix is probably of araboid or berber origin, as we see from names like ibn batuta, etc.


English also has some ba words derived from old latin and germanoid/french languages eg baron which meant warrior or nobleman.

It's not of Arab origin.

Ba is a common Fulani last name as is Ka.

PhysicsQED:
Back to my regular username.



Sure, I can elaborate. Based on the links I posted earlier of some actual Dogon languages, one might think a word closer to "aru" could be human being or person in a Dogon language (perhaps as some sort of dialect variation), but there would be no reason yet to think that "baru" specifically could be a word for human being in those languages. I don't see why you think it matters yet what "baru" means in some Bantu languages when the issue is to first determine which words mean human being, person, or man in all Dogon languages before proceeding to make comparisons. So far I have seen nothing to suggest that "baru" or "baro" or "bantu" is the word for human beings in a Dogon language, because you have not shown any evidence to support that idea.

If "olu" means master or god or something similar in several Bantu languages, what makes you think that this is an exclusively "Bantu" feature which must be indicative of Bantu origin whenever it is seen? You also mentioned "me/mi" as meaning "my" and that is definitely not an exclusively Bantu linguistic feature, as many languages from other African language groups have a similar or identical word for the same thing.

And I don't see what the relevance of a few specific coincidences in names is as far as indicating ethnic origin. Coincidences in names across different ethnic groups and language groups are found all the time in names in Africa and elsewhere. So far nobody has shown that Dogon vocabulary and grammar are closer to Bantu languages than to non Bantu languages.



So one could equally say that some non-Bantu west Africans used to occupy a wider area of Africa than the majority of history books suggest based on some origin stories of origin outside of west Africa, and therefore claim that much of Africa was originally "non-Bantu west African" occupied territory. In which case, one could then just claim that non-Bantu west Africans were responsible for whatever other particular ancient art or relics scattered throughout Africa that one wants to claim.



So what major significance does this have in the context of the Nok? There are lots of ethnic groups in Nigeria, and we don't even know for certain that the ethnic identities of today were solidified/definite back at the time of the Nok culture. And for all we know the ethnic group of the Nok could simply be ancestral to some ethnic groups found today in north central Nigeria.

Since you admit that it is not all Nigerian groups that claim an outside origin, anyone could equally claim that some ethnic groups of Nigeria who claim to be autochthonous were the first to settle in Nigeria or were responsible for the Nok culture. Note that being first to settle in Nigeria and being responsible for the Nok culture are not necessarily the same thing, though you have been associating them as being necessarily connected.



I haven't come across any method that can be used to determine exactly who the first settlers in Nigeria were in terms of linguistic groups or ethnic groups.



Even if we take it as a fact that Bantu language groups originated somewhere around the southern Nigerian/Cameroonian border, that doesn't prove anything about the Nok culture, as the Nok culture is in north central Nigeria, and the people of the Nok culture could just have come to the north central Nigerian area from an eastern, western, northern, northeastern or northwestern direction from some other populations that belonged to some linguistic group besides the Bantu linguistic group.



So I take it that during the time of the Nok culture, the ancestors of present day Nigerians were in Kyrgyzstan, Sweden, Oman and Luxembourg while Bantu groups were occupying all of Nigeria. . .but then most of the proto-Nigerian groups stormed into western Africa from thousands of miles away and drove all the Bantu groups out of the Nigerian area with unstoppable fighters using gigantic scimitars (now lost), rhinoceros cavalry charges (now unknown), ancient jeet kune do (now unknown), bronze trebuchets (now lost), trained war leopards (now extinct), and perhaps some poisoned tridents for good measure. . .and did all of this so rapidly and with such ferocity as to force the Bantu groups to flee the proto-Nigerian onslaught in a mass migration as fast as their feet could take them into other parts of Africa. . .

But on a more serious note, if West Africans don't originate from western Africa as most people think, then one could just as easily claim they occupied most of the other areas of Africa after they left eastern Africa, before they got to western Africa, and that whatever is found in west Africa (such as the Nok culture's art) in later times is just what they started doing when they finally stopped roaming and settled down. I mean, anyone can make up highly speculative scenarios that aren't really based on anything. It's not going to convince anyone though.



It's just not the case that every culture that made high quality art of a certain type for a while but then later stopped was destroyed/absorbed by outsiders.



That's fine. I can't see much similarity between the Nok aesthetic and the aesthetic of any art from Bantu language areas, which is part of what caused me to ask the questions I asked in my first post to you. But this is all a matter of perception, so we don't have to agree.



Perhaps Bantu language groups eventually lost the know how and the inclination to make art that strongly resembles the Nok art, and perhaps non-Bantu language groups in West Africa eventually lost the know how and technology to make huge pyramids. It's just mere speculation at this point.

I think that if you really believe this Bantu Nok theory you should probably look for better arguments and evidence to support your idea, because I don't think the scenario you've constructed so far sounds believable.

Just to point out something of interest, the Abaluhya of Kenya and some Ugandan bantu tribes also have the Olu prefix that means people of/object/thing.

Olu is also of Semitic origin, Al or El, meaning God, High, Deity, etc.

tpiadotcom:
Olu is also of Semitic origin, Al or El, meaning God, High, Deity, etc.

Why should it be of Semitic origin, why can't you say that it is the Semites who copied us, just because africans do not have a widely published literature on their history doesn't give you justification to quote them all the time. It is obvious that your mind has been programmed to always refer to outside influences when it come to african history. FYI Al in Arabic is a definite/indefinite article such as a or the in English, most Bantu languages however do not have definite/indefinite articles.

pkjag:

Just to point out something of interest, the Abaluhya of Kenya and some Ugandan bantu tribes also have the Olu prefix that means people of/object/thing.

Interesting. There are actually some non-Bantu west African languages where "olu" or a very similar word has a meaning that is similar to "master, god, or ruler" of some object or place. But I didn't bring that up earlier when I mentioned that "olubaru" was said to mean "masters of the bush" in Dogon because the correspondence between olu (masters) in Dogon languages and olu in some non-Bantu west African languages may just be a coincidence.

But regardless, there really is no reason so far to think that either "men" or "human beings" in Dogon languages would be "baru" as sonzo seemed to think.

tpiadotcom:
Olu is also of Semitic origin, Al or El, meaning God, High, Deity, etc.

Perhaps correspondences like these between words from an Afroasiatic language group (whether Semitic or any other Afroasiatic language group) and some non-Bantu and Bantu "Niger-Congo" languages are not due to the spread of words with a specifically Semitic origin, but due to some underlying similarities between some Niger-Congo languages and some Afroasiatic languages.