TheGoodJoe:
Even with total Subsidy removal, Nigerian kids will die of hunger in the streets. Women will still die without adequate medicare. The stealing of the government will be like giving you N0 and taking Billions of dollars.

Even with total Subsidy removal, these people would have taken loans and ran the country to debt.

The problem with infrastructural decayis not Subsidy but Corruption.

adeitoro:


wale adenuga? I don't think so, when did he enter into oil biz?

I think you intend writing Mike Adenuga

gohome:


Man, we have no infrastructure.

pawesome:
gohome,989900,u guys re jst too much...dis is d first tym i actually went tru 7 pages on nairaland n read every single post...all tnx to u guys

TheGoodJoe:


Even with total Subsidy removal, we will be in the same predicament.

You are talking from the perspective of a government who want infrastructure for their people and development for the future generation. Not these men.

We sold Crude at astronomical prices and GEJ did not think of setting up refineries to curb out subsidy wastages. Look at Madam Madueke Flying in Private Jets with government funds. Look at the hundreds of people GEJ flew to different summits. Look at the bags of money distributed during the election.

With Subsidy removal, it would be the same, especially under a government like GEJ. The partial Subsidy removal proves it. The money went down the drain. Same with the Subsidy removal of Diesel. Yet no refineries but the same old scam. Things gets harder, the future ones suffer.

Left to me, let them lose more and let me buy petrol at N55.

djmummy:
I have to say this has been one of the most informative topics here on nairaland. I have learnt a lot in just a matter of minutes Kudos to all of u

gohome, 989900 and others.

Continue with the constructive arguments

gohome:


Man, we have no infrastructure.

Remove corruption and use 4 Trillion as budget, you are still flat broke. Double that figure to 8 Trillion, you are still flat broke.

Oga, you need a trillion dollars to have infrastructure for 170 million people

In this case, your security lies in building infrastruture (Military, Agriculture, Education). It does not lie in fueling your generator. You have proven that you did not die the last week. You have proven that when the price was almost doubled from 65 naira to 97 naira, you did not die. Infact you bought more cars. Your poorer neighbours are not dead. Do not mortgage you kids future

TheGoodJoe:


Even with total Subsidy removal, we will be in the same predicament.

You are talking from the perspective of a government who want infrastructure for their people and development for the future generation. Not these men.

We sold Crude at astronomical prices and GEJ did not think of setting up refineries to curb out subsidy wastages. Look at Madam Madueke Flying in Private Jets with government funds. Look at the hundreds of people GEJ flew to different summits. Look at the bags of money distributed during the election.

With Subsidy removal, it would be the same, especially under a government like GEJ. The partial Subsidy removal proves it. The money went down the drain. Same with the Subsidy removal of Diesel. Yet no refineries but the same old scam. Things gets harder, the future ones suffer.

Left to me, let them lose more and let me buy petrol at N55.

gohome:




Remove corruption and use 4 Trillion as budget, you are still flat broke. Double that figure to 8 Trillion, you are still flat broke.

Oga, you need a trillion dollars to have infrastructure for 170 million people

In this case, your security lies in building infrastruture (Military, Agriculture, Education). It does not lie in fueling your generator. You have proven that you did not die the last week. You have proven that when the price was almost doubled from 65 naira to 97 naira, you did not die. Infact you bought more cars. Your poorer neighbours are not dead. Do not mortgage you kids future

mbulela:


See the twin problem;

You want them to build refineries before removing subsidy? The country is too broke to afford to build one refinery while paying the subsidy (most of it are outright stolen funds). As i have said elsewhere, the country has never been as broke as it is at present.

On the other side, it will take years to buid a refinery. Doubt it can be done in 6 months.

So how do you wish to continue?

gohome:


With this mentality, you are no different from your leaders. You want to chop the one you see which is 30 Naira. If you see 1 billion, you wont care, you go chop am, then mortgage your kids future. its alright.

TheGoodJoe:


Even with total Subsidy removal, we will be in the same predicament.

You are talking from the perspective of a government who want infrastructure for their people and development for the future generation. Not these men.

We sold Crude at astronomical prices and GEJ did not think of setting up refineries to curb out subsidy wastages. Look at Madam Madueke Flying in Private Jets with government funds. Look at the hundreds of people GEJ flew to different summits. Look at the bags of money distributed during the election.

With Subsidy removal, it would be the same, especially under a government like GEJ. The partial Subsidy removal proves it. The money went down the drain. Same with the Subsidy removal of Diesel. Yet no refineries but the same old scam. Things gets harder, the future ones suffer.

Left to me, let them lose more and let me buy petrol at N55.

Answer

ohzee(f): I believe the reason that the price of diesel is high is because it is not lucrative to import it. The marketers simply ignore it and all rush for the beautiful bride called PMS because of the subsidy they will get from govt. This creates artificial relative scarcity of diesel and the price remains high.

The price of diesel has dropped in several countries but risen in others. From July 2013 to July 2014 (oil price peak), the retail price of diesel dropped by 3.6 percent in Germany. In Japan, prices increased by 9.7 percent during the same time. The United Kingdom had some of the highest prices for automotive diesel, reaching 1.93 U.S. dollars per liter in July 2014. Today in the UK, the price of diesel is 1.91 U.S. Dollars.

wirinet:

Having said that, i am not a fan of deregulation in a critical sector like the petroleum sector. There is never deregulation in the real sense of the word in any country in the world, government always regulate to some extent all industries in order to prevent abuse, monopoly and to protect public interest. It is the degree of regulation we should be debating about. "Deregulation" is good in situations with efficient market economy with strong institutions, but had been proven to be disasterous in countries with inefficient or underdeveloped markets with very weak institutions. All you will produce is monopoly or Oligarchy and the masses being at the mercy of a few powerful cabals.

gohome: If you do not deregulate, you wont build efficiency in Nigeria. Refining margines are very small with the volatile oil market you have. Big players like Shell BP Total etc would not build refineries if you do not let you government hands off. When Dangote's refinery is ready he will sell to Ghana, Togo and the likes if your Govt does not hands off. Fuel is not cheap. it is 220 Naira per liter. Get use to it.

wirinet:

This is what we have in almost all sectors of the Nigerian economy that had undergone deregulation. This is why deregulated Diesel and aviation fuel will never be cheap and available. This is why DSTV, MTN, Etisalat, etc can charge the masses very high tarrifs with very poor services. This is why deregulated NEPA is worse than regulated NEPA. I can go on and on. Before Thatcher deregulated or privatized the British economy, she made sure that the public run enterprises were running optimally and efficiently and very efficient regulatory bodies were in place.

gohome:

Thats the good thing about deregulation.

MTN better than NITEL
DSTV better than NTA
NESCO better than NEPA.

If you choose to use NITEL because MTN service is not good, go ahead. If you choose to watch NTA, go ahead. If you choose to use NEPA instead of solar and inverter, or NESCO go ahead.

NESCO is an independent power company in Jos that supplies 24 hours light to its customer

gohome: Subsidy removal has nothing to do with scarcity. PMS subsidy does not exist in 90 percent of the countries in the world, yet no scarcity. Why should it be scarce in Nigeria. No subsidy in Ghana, Niger, Togo, Benin, Kenya, SA, No scarcity. PMS is available worldwide if you want to have it at 1.1 dollars per liter. The only reason for Diesel scarcity is the fact that marketers refused to lift. If MTN refuses to give you service, Etisalat will. If OandO refuses to give you diesel, Capital Oil will. Deregulate the downstream sector is the only way. 3% of your budget goes to your National Assembly. Let them pass law and implement policies to guide against capitalism excess. Go and read about the meager between ATT and Tmobile.

Reply to Wirinet Comments

[b]450,000 for domestic consumption does not fall from the sky. You have to produce it. It cost 30 dollars per bbl to produce it. Depending on the oil price, you will likely lose 9 billion dollars a year. This is minus the so called subsidy. With an infrastructural decay that needs hundreds of billions to solve, you want to pay subsidy? You are in a country where the government expenditure per person to tax is the highest in the world and you want to still pay subsidy. Your economy (mass transit, banks and industries) runs with diesel not PMS.

What is the population of the UAE? You are 170 million boy. It is not affordable.

Your budget is a mere 4 trillion. Guess what the budget of New York City with 8.9 million people alone is 15 trillion. Your government is poor, it needs money from anywhere. Help it.

Help it create a level playing field to unlock new opportunities. If we show investors we can buy fuel at 200 to 250 naira a liter, you will see them come. We then will be talking about 200K direct jobs easy and another 5 million indirect jobs.

Your country is poor. You need to start paying 30% tax so your government can run your country.

Buhari will not pay a dime on PMS subsidy. Petrol will sell at 1.1 dollars per liter. Unless he wants to throw away 9 billion dollars (465000 bbl) another form of subsidy. You won't die. My grandma in the village buys petro at 210 per liter, food are transported via diesel, mass transit is via diesel, industry via diesel. Nothing will happen

i really do not know how to explain to these guys that we cannot afford it. No country with a population of 150 million plus pay subsidy on PMS.

Let them keep hiding under masses. Borrowing money to enrich few rich men. Sometimes I feel like disowning this country. People you try to help are the same people killing you.

TheGoodJoe:


Remove the Subsidy and a government like GEJ will not produce infrastructure for a million people. It will disappear. Just like the $60 billion debt Buhari is inheriting. A serious government that felt Subsidy was a priority will use the funds from the partial Subsidy removal and foreign loans to build refineries.

It was not in their agenda. The loans were not, the money missing from NNPC were not used to develop infrastructure but their foreign bank accounts.

gohome:


You are not making any sacrifice for them. They are stealing from you blind with the subsidy. If you can trust them with 4 trillion annual budget, then why not trust them with 1, 2 300 billion. You can not maintain a 170 million people with 4 Trillion Naira. You just cannot.

jpphilips:
gohome post=34137209]






Arrant Nonsense!!






Arrant nonsense, Nigeria has a peculiar problem that requires a Nigerian solution, at the Bundu waterside, there is a particular cheap diesel sold there, is it sold in Germany? is there kpo fire in the UK?








Ladies and Gentlemen!! here you have it, Subsidy is the only government control in the downstream sector, remove subsidy and the middle class will face extinction, you guys have no idea what these cabals are capable of!!





Deregulation or not, refining in Nigeria is still profitable especially with this relatively low oil cost





JET A1 is regulated under DPK subsidy






Oil and gas downstream sector follows a different rule entirely!! that thing you wrote up there will never happen if you deregulate completely.
Why is AGO fully deregulated not flooded every where? why is the international crude pricing not having a significant effect on the price of AGO?
Why has competition not pushed down the price of deregulated AGO? if you have the answer to these questions, then you will appreciate how comical you sound with that statement.




Arrant nonsense!! all sectors do not obey the same rules, Telecom, power and oil are two different things, only Sanusi think otherwise.







You are very ignorant, Capital oil and Oando belong to the same union, if you remove Govt control (subsidy), if Capital doesnt sell, Oando wont sell either, you will exist at their mercy, they will fix their prices and you can not do Jack about it, but with subsidy in place, they are Obligated to sell except when they have a beef with their client (Government), you just experienced a tip of their influence last week, obviously, you have not learnt your lesson, remove subsidy and you will understand why a sitting president referred to them as "cabals".

Capital defied the union to release only 13m liters, do you think that is all he has got? he did Jonathan his personal friend a favor to salvage his image and the union understand, joke with these men at your own peril, they dont give a flying fvck about you!!






False!! it cost less than $30 to produce Nigerian oil, Shale oil is more expensive though, North Darkota is around $65/bbl, Texas and colorado is about $75/bbls, why do you think that Saudi was able to sustain the price war? because of variations in cost of production, Nigeria and Libya remainst the cheapest in Africa.





Let the Governemnet worry about that, if the government can not design a blue print to make subsidy disappear, then they should continue paying till the president's salary is used for the last subsidy ticket, Government is there to serve the people not the other way round, there are a billion and one ways to make subsidy disappear in 4yrs, why cant the government figure it out? other than throwing around lies to bamboozle the citizens,
The United states at the peak of 2003 high oil price, President George Bush read a riot act and vowed to cut the united states dependance on foreign oil by 70%, he drew a plan and succesive governments followed it, 10yrs on, United states is on the 3rd spot in oil production in the world and aiming the first spot by next year with a whooping 15mbopd, that is what Governance is about, not wearing Agbada and fedora hat like an slowpoke.






Crap!! the governemnt is lazy and they dont think!! stop cutting them useless slack, give Murry Bruce or Pat Utomi the presidency and subsidy will disappear in 5yrs, you can not vote block heads and expect a miracle in governance.

We recycle different classes of failures as public officers with no idea whatsoever how to run a country, Corruption is a bigger problem than subsidy, now, we have Buhari, a step in the right direction, he is expected to curb corruption and instill dicipline for Nigerian leadership to have sincerity of purpose, after him, is a technocrat that will strategically position Nigeria as a global player.
If he is able to select the technocrats now, then we have icing on the cake.






Be very careful what you wish for, these guys will import products, hoard it and make you beg to pay 1,000naira for a liter, the Cabal is already waiting for Buhari to make that mistake, your $1.1 PMS will only happen in your dreams.
who told you nothing will happen? well, Jonathan did not envisage the Ojota razzmatazz did he? Are you aware that the awareness the opposition created at the time was the drive that led to his defeat at the polls, do not ever in your life under estimate the power of the people.






Another B.S, United states twice the size of Nigeria, run 4 major subsidies that I can remember and still remain the richest in the world, bros! it is not about the size of your population but the ability of a Government to create wealth, you continue saying we can not afford it so what?
How about Leaders being able to create wealth? the oil you are dancing on was created by the leaders of the 70's, at the time Nigeria started investing in oil and gas, Coal was more profitable than oil, the ingenuity of our heroes past took a fore sight and invested in oil.

40yrs on, 10 leaders past, none of them has been able to create another source of income for this country, we are still brooding over oil that the 70's leaders created, it has been from one chop chop government to another, in the face of this abysmal failure, you dare cut them slack? what is wrong with you?

Like i said, I dont mind if the president's salary is caught up in the middle of subsidy receipt.

1. Because the sector is not fully deregulated. The money these marketers get from PMS, they can afford to sell diesel to you at any price. You are lucky. If the sector is fully deregulated, you may buy diesel at 180 Naira per liter

2. I also believe the reason that the price of diesel is high is because it is not lucrative to import it. The marketers simply ignore it and all rush for the beautiful bride called PMS because of the subsidy they will get from govt. This creates artificial relative scarcity of diesel and the price remains high

3. The price of crude oil is not directly proportional to the price of diesel. In other words if the price of crude oil is reduced by 40 percent, the price of diesel will only reduce by 5% or less The reason being diesel is a necessary by product from the very cherished PMS. It's prices are determined by refining margins amongst other factors. These margins are calculated from the composition of crude refined

The price of diesel has dropped in several countries but risen in others. From July 2013 to July 2014 (oil price peak), the retail price of diesel dropped by 3.6 percent in Germany. In Japan, prices increased by 9.7 percent during the same time. The United Kingdom had some of the highest prices for automotive diesel, reaching 1.93 U.S. dollars per liter in July 2014. Today in the UK, the price of diesel is 1.91 U.S. Dollars.

4. I also believe the reason why diesel was scarce last week is because markerters refused to lift. diesel boggle everywhere

nairamaniac:
why do you Nigerians forget so easily. Jonathan didn't say "let's remove the subsidy, cos its a scam". he said, " let's remove the subsidy cos iv been scammed". he was scammed to spend 1.2trillion naira as against 400 billion which was spent the previous year. now, Jonathan transfered the burdens of his damage to us the ordinary citizens to pay for the excess 800billion. we d citizens played for this damage every subsequent year thru d removal of subsidy. Jonathan's government is the worst ever, economically speaking. no one has even asked why the naira was devalued last year November. the naira was devalued from 160naira/1dollar to above 250naira/1dollar becos our wicked country had to access our foreign-reserve in order to make up for difference in oil-revenue after oil prices had crashed. the yearly budget depends mainly on oil revenue. as oil prices crashed from above $100 to less than $60, the government wdnt have beenable to meet up with a budget of 4trillion anymore, the most they WD have gotten is about 2trillion. they needed money from somewhere. that somewhere was the 'foreign reserve'. they wanted it to be plenty wen converted to naira, hence they devalued the naira and the economy and masses suffered just as it suffered when subsidy was removed. My people, God loves this country that y he has directly bailed us out on two major-occassions . the 1st time was thru the death of Abacha. the 2nd time was the removal of Jonathan.

nairamaniac:
why do you Nigerians forget so easily. Jonathan didn't say "let's remove the subsidy, cos its a scam". he said, " let's remove the subsidy cos iv been scammed". he was scammed to spend 1.2trillion naira as against 400 billion which was spent the previous year. now, Jonathan transfered the burdens of his damage to us the ordinary citizens to pay for the excess 800billion. we d citizens played for this damage every subsequent year thru d removal of subsidy. Jonathan's government is the worst ever, economically speaking. no one has even asked why the naira was devalued last year November. the naira was devalued from 160naira/1dollar to above 250naira/1dollar becos our wicked country had to access our foreign-reserve in order to make up for difference in oil-revenue after oil prices had crashed. the yearly budget depends mainly on oil revenue. as oil prices crashed from above $100 to less than $60, the government wdnt have beenable to meet up with a budget of 4trillion anymore, the most they WD have gotten is about 2trillion. they needed money from somewhere. that somewhere was the 'foreign reserve'. they wanted it to be plenty wen converted to naira, hence they devalued the naira and the economy and masses suffered just as it suffered when subsidy was removed. My people, God loves this country that y he has directly bailed us out on two major-occassions . the 1st time was thru the death of Abacha. the 2nd time was the removal of Jonathan.

jpphilips:
author=gohome post=34152086]

Please esplain futher, I do not understand this question.

I will put an answer, tell me if this helps



Wrong!!




Crap!!




I have given you an answer on my last post




Listen attentively, the reason AGO was scarce was because AGO is deregulated, there is no Govt control on AGO so the cabals call the shot fully in that area. All products belong to the cabal, while protesting for their 200b unpaid PMS subsidy funds, they utilized all the weapons in their arsenal, AGO being one of it, we gave them the power through deregulation.
If you deregulate fully, You have given the cabal total control of the Energy sector, like i said on the other post, they will annihilate the middle class.
They hoard their AGO to spite the government nothing more, deregulation has given them the power of monopoly.
The downstream sector is a bit tricky, Buhari must thread with caution.

gohome:


Please be more civil.

Stop being scared. It is better we are at the mercy of them and learn how to checkmate capitalism excesses in a free market than still be on thier mercy right now. No country ready to progress will pay subsidy on Imported PMS. Subsidy is not a bad word. It should be done in other places (Transport, Agriculture, Education) Not Imported PMS.

TheGoodJoe:


Even with total Subsidy removal, we will be in the same predicament.

You are talking from the perspective of a government who want infrastructure for their people and development for the future generation. Not these men.

We sold Crude at astronomical prices and GEJ did not think of setting up refineries to curb out subsidy wastages. Look at Madam Madueke Flying in Private Jets with government funds. Look at the hundreds of people GEJ flew to different summits. Look at the bags of money distributed during the election.

With Subsidy removal, it would be the same, especially under a government like GEJ. The partial Subsidy removal proves it. The money went down the drain. Same with the Subsidy removal of Diesel. Yet no refineries but the same old scam. Things gets harder, the future ones suffer.

Left to me, let them lose more and let me buy petrol at N55.

adanny01:


Why not on PMS?

There is subsidy on fertilizer which coincidentally is also a petroleum product but used in the agricilture sector. Is the subsidy on fertilizer having any effect on its availabilty to farmers? No

Some states have various levels of subsidy in education. Is free education in Imo and other states not subsidy? My state of Kaduna pays NECO examinations fee. What has that done to reduce illiteracy in Nigeria. Instead, literacy levels are not getting better.

The poor man in the remotest village feels the immediate impact if N5 subsidy is added or subtracted from PMS. Tell me now which of the various subsidy regimes has the capacity to affect positively or negatively the lives of 170milion Nigerians.

Realdeals:
subsidy a scam! visit this thread https://www.nairaland.com/2339465/buhari-not-use-oil-marketers

"...In the short run, we will not use the marketers for the PMS importation... we shall give all our local PMS needs that NNPC cannot refine to foreign firms to refine for us and pay them the cost of refining...
"We shall provide transport to ship crude to and from the foreign refineries and pay the cost of refining for us...I believe that will remove the subsidy fraud in the short run...
"when I give you 200,000 bpd to refine, you must give me the equivalent outputs that it will bring in kerosene, PMS, Diesel etc...
"...But in the long run, we shall encourage local refineries..."

kinibigdeal:



Question

Were you able to give this analysis when jonathan government made several attempt to remove it? were you not part of those that protested against it at ojota? Now those that oppose it during is government are trying to remove it! Our politics is all about interest and not about the citizen

In addition,
a. What is the tangible evidence of how well the proceeds of the partial removal and SURE-P initiative?

b. What explains the price of N130 for kerosene that enjoins subsidy and should be sold at N50 official?

c. Where is the common sense of buying refined fuel from abroad while we export the raw crude when the same govt is preaching a ban to the importation of fish and other goods that we naturally produce locally?

Energy sector and Agriculture obey different set of rules, when Buhari sits, he will realize that Nigeria doesn't even have feed stock for existing refineries, from there he go begin develop grey hairs
Make no mistakes, buhari understand the energy sector a lot, I still trust his judgement, what we cannot guarantee is the extent of damage Jonathan has done.

e. How do you react to this revelation:

Realdeals:
@ gohome

What happen to the 445,000 barrel of crude produced for domestic consumption

kinibigdeal:




Your comment are too loopsided. The fact that you said you were against it in 2012 due to your unfounded fact speaks alot about your personality and you supporting it now enapse my conclusion. The protest against subsidy in 2012 was highly political and not for the interest of the nation, the calculation was to render this present administration ungovernable in lieu of their interest in 2015 which really work for them perfectly. Majority of the policy GEJ administration had then was strongly opposed through press and whatever platform because of their political calculation of 2015. The effect was, the more you oppose a beneficial policy, the more the aesthetic decay compiled and remain unsolved. Now the consequence of their unfounded critics is what they want to carry now which is almost impossible to solve in 8years. The problem we have as a nation is that our critics are never issue based but political gain

tunene66:
in simply terms to me subsidy is ensuring that the price of a good or service is below the actual cost price-in other words, there is a loss. No concerning the Nigerian situation, the crude oil is sold in the international market at ruling price. Its based on this that the Federal Government bases its budget. So the crude is sold and we import, like any other country, refined oil at international price, together with it attendant cost of transportation, insurance and landing charges. These no doubt makes the cost of refined oil higher than crude (since value has been added). Now the Govt. arbitrarily fixes the refined oil (PMS) price. So the differential is called Subsidy

Well the counter argument is that ideally, the budget of Nigeria should be based on crude oil that is sold to external customers. The crude oil that is to be used eventually in the country should be sold at local cost of production price to refineries who will the send it back at a reduced price. States and LGAs will kick because it will mean reduced revenue, no wonder they wand an Accountant General of the Federal Republic

So to me there is subsidy but its being mismanaged because our monitoring agencies have been corrupt

The way out.....