KellamLeTorneau:


The dead sea scroll is still existing, and the name Ahmad was found in It, just as the Quran tells,

And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"

The Quran said exactly the name that was found in the dead sea scrolls years later. And Jesus did claim he was here to confirm the laws of past prophets in the book of matthew, and jesus did say he was sent only to the lost sheep of israel in your bible did he not?

As for the jews, there are various hadiths that confirm the jews in arabia had knowledge of Muhammads arrival. Here's the two I could dig up.

"Bring forward the most learned among you before me."  When that man came forward, he and Muhammad spoke in private.  Finally Muhammad asked him, "Do you know that I am the Apostle of Allah?"  The rabbi answered, "By Allah! Yes, and the people know what I know.  Verily your attributes and qualities are clearly mentioned in the Torah, but they are jealous of you."  (History of Muhammad Ibn Sa'd, Volume I, Pages 188)
  
"...and he is the Prophet of these people; he is an Arab and the Jews are jealous of him wishing that he should have been an Israelite..."  (History of Muhammad Ibn Sa'd, Volume I, Pages 177)
  

The Dead Sea Scroll was discovered by muslims, making it unacceptable to support islam. It is only in muslims' countries they discover different bibles that approve islam. Who says those were not the handiwork of muslims trying hard to legitimise islam?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

Muhammad never came to confirm the laws of the earlier Scriptures. He came to introduce paganism in the name of worshiping the true God.

Everything the pagans were doing in Mecca before islam was incorporated into islam by allah:

[Quran 2:158 Pickthal] Lo! (the mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwah are among the indications of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who is on pilgrimage to the House (of Allah) or visiteth it, to go around them (AS THE PAGAN CUSTOM IS). And he who doeth good of his own accord, (for him) lo! Allah is Responsive, Aware.

How would God prophesy of Muhammad in the bible to return the world to paganism?

Islamic Allah is not the true God and that is why they worship him as they do to idols.

KellamLeTorneau:


Hmm. If we quote from the Quran, will you believe it? Is it not better if we quote out of your own book?

God said in our own book that Jesus Gospel is to be preached till the end of the world, then who sent Muhammad to bring islam?

Scholar8200:
Can you prove this from the BCE era history? Any rivalry will simply be a fulfilment of the prophecy to Hagar that her son's hand will be against everyone vice versa. In fact, the it must have been the Arabs being jealous of the Israelites see Genesis 21:9
9 Now Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, mocking [Isaac]. This must have followed Ishmael to the grave and , like the hatred of the Edomites (Esau's descendants) , passed down to his generations.

Now you allude to the same Bible you are denigrating when what is said appears to favour your points! By the way you have panel beated and diluted that reference with your own beliefs. Can you give us the actual quote? And the kingdom of God as referred to by Christ (Who made the statement you are referring to) is of a spiritual essence hence Jesus Himself said
Luke 17:21
21 neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

This is in perfect keeping with the promise of the New Covenant where The Father said the following
Ezekiel 36:27
27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This Covenant ,like the Old, had to be ratified by blood hence Christ said,
Matthew 26:28
28 for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Now if you claim that this is what was given to the Arabs, how come all these are conspicuously absent?

Even while Moses was receiving the law God's was looking forward to that time(in His plan) when this will be:
Deuteronomy 5:29
29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

It's a matter of the heart not the external observances of the ceremonial law that's God's desire and that's where the NT focuses. Why? because the heart controls the man.
Do you know more than God by Whose inspiration Moses who wrote
Genesis 21:12
And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.


Now if the Bible were to be tampered with by 'jealous jews' why would it be included that Abraham married hagar of that God also gave promises to Ishmael?!
Consider Genesis 22:1
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. 2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

The command to Abraham came, "after these things" what are they? The events recorded in chapter 21 one of which was the sending away of Hagar and Ishmael. It wont be a trial if Ishmael was still there to fall back on. Moreover, the promise God made in Genesis 22:16-18. was directly and evidently (proximately) fulfilled on Isaac. See Genesis 26:2-5

2 And the Lord appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3 sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 and I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The implication of this is that you are ascribing partiality to God based on your claim that Ishmael was the reference, but Isaac got the blessings. Before you claim that Ishmael also was blessed, it came before this time and that was simply because Abraham prayed for him
Genesis 17:19-21

19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year



Refer to the replies above.
You are quoting a Jew who was a renowned traditionalist! Why even the Lord denounced them for this reason
Mark 7: 6 -9,13

He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.


13 making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


A good number of the Jews (blinded by their pharisees, elders and the sadduccees) rejected Jesus at His first coming. After His ascension, these persisted in their unbelief and the result? (as prophesied)

Isaiah 29:10-12
For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep,
and hath closed your eyes:
the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: 12 and the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

The aftermath was also described by Jesus Christ when He said
John 5:43,44-46
43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

These traditionalists were the references here (though called pharisees, they had replaced the law of Moses with their traditions).

In conclusion, the saying of a traditionalist is not admissible for this purpose

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Mr Scholar, it seems you can't ever seem to ever directly refute anything. You just bring more verses, spew them, contradict your claims and completely confuse the argument.

Why would God tell Refer to Isaac as his only son when Ishmael was still alive? Just because he was away? So what you're saying is Ishmael was an illegal child? But then Abraham was married to Hagar and are you accusing Abraham of abandoning his family?

truthman2012:


God said in our own book that Jesus Gospel is to be preached till the end of the world, then who sent Muhammad to bring islam?

Verse?

truthman2012:


The Dead Sea Scroll was discovered by muslims, making it unacceptable to support islam. It is only in muslims' countries they discover different bibles that approve islam. Who says those were not the handiwork of muslims trying hard to legitimise islam?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

Muhammad never came to confirm the laws of the earlier Scriptures. He came to introduce paganism in the name of worshiping the true God.

Everything the pagans were doing in Mecca before islam was incorporated into islam by allah:

[Quran 2:158 Pickthal] Lo! (the mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwah are among the indications of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who is on pilgrimage to the House (of Allah) or visiteth it, to go around them (AS THE PAGAN CUSTOM IS). And he who doeth good of his own accord, (for him) lo! Allah is Responsive, Aware.

How would God prophesy of Muhammad in the bible to return the world to paganism?

Islamic Allah is not the true God and that is why they worship him as they do to idols.

But there's no sign of tampering is there? The Dead Sea scrolls passed all tests to prove its originality. But your claims about pagan practices in islam, EzioAuditore created a thread that explained all that to you. A thread I can remember seeing you in before you escaped after he dealt with you. Why then are you recycling? But indeed, you christians have no explanation for why you worship a pagan god.

KellamLeTorneau:


Verse?

It shows you didn't read my earlier posts with comprehension. This is the verse again:

And this GOSPEL of the kingdom
shall be preached in ALL the
WORLD for a witness unto ALL
NATIONS and then SHALL THE
END COME (Mat. 24:14)

truthman2012:


It shows you didn't read my earlier posts with comprehension. This is the verse again:

And this GOSPEL of the kingdom
shall be preached in ALL the
WORLD for a witness unto ALL
NATIONS and then SHALL THE
END COME (Mat. 24:14)

Ooh! Sorry for that. I thought you said your own as in ours. And yes, we agree as well. Part of the articles of faith in islam is believing in all the books sent before the Quran, the injeel (bible) included. But we are required to believe in the true gospel, that which doesn't go against the teachings of the Quran. Because the true gospel is in harmony with the teachings of the Quran, like if you accept the bible did speak of Muhammads coming, and believe that to be part of the bible, then that is in perfect harmony with the teachings of Muhammad and the Quran.

KellamLeTorneau:


But there's no sign of tampering is there? The Dead Sea scrolls passed all tests to prove its originality. But your claims about pagan practices in islam, EzioAuditore created a thread that explained all that to you. A thread I can remember seeing you in before you escaped after he dealt with you. Why then are you recycling? But indeed, you christians have no explanation for why you worship a pagan god.

The fact that the dead sea scroll was discovered by muslims and that it contains some verses that approve islam shows something is fishy.

Besides, who conducted the tests you claim it passed?

About EzioAditore, I wish to inform you that am not into a debate of who wins or loses. Once I have stated the truth, it is left to you to accept or reject it.

The truth remains that it is the Devil's ambition to be worshiped as God and he has achieved that through islam, hence the similarities between paganism and islam.

KellamLeTorneau:


The dead sea scroll is still existing, and the name Ahmad was found in It, just as the Quran tells,

And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"

The Quran said exactly the name that was found in the dead sea scrolls years later. And Jesus did claim he was here to confirm the laws of past prophets in the book of matthew, and jesus did say he was sent only to the lost sheep of israel in your bible did he not?

As for the jews, there are various hadiths that confirm the jews in arabia had knowledge of Muhammads arrival. Here's the two I could dig up.

"Bring forward the most learned among you before me."  When that man came forward, he and Muhammad spoke in private.  Finally Muhammad asked him, "Do you know that I am the Apostle of Allah?"  The rabbi answered, "By Allah! Yes, and the people know what I know.  Verily your attributes and qualities are clearly mentioned in the Torah, but they are jealous of you."  (History of Muhammad Ibn Sa'd, Volume I, Pages 188)
  
"...and he is the Prophet of these people; he is an Arab and the Jews are jealous of him wishing that he should have been an Israelite..."  (History of Muhammad Ibn Sa'd, Volume I, Pages 177)
  

You are not arguing intelligently.You say the scrolls are still existing.Where are they?They should be the proof,not you quoting Muhammed and hadiths which are no legal proofs.

KellamLeTorneau:


Ooh! Sorry for that. I thought you said your own as in ours. And yes, we agree as well. Part of the articles of faith in islam is believing in all the books sent before the Quran, the injeel (bible) included. But we are required to believe in the true gospel, that which doesn't go against the teachings of the Quran. Because the true gospel is in harmony with the teachings of the Quran, like if you accept the bible did speak of Muhammads coming, and believe that to be part of the bible, then that is in perfect harmony with the teachings of Muhammad and the Quran.

Do you know the teachings of the Gospel?

Jesus says '' I am the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE, nobody can come unto the Father but by ME'' (John 14:6).
Then, what is the need for Muhammad?

Jesus said '' Whatever you ask of me, that I will do.'' Do you ask in the name of Jesus?

Do you accept God as the Father?

Do you accept Jesus as the Son of God?

Those are some of what the Gospel entails.

Like I said before, I may not respond to you again, having stated the truth. I am not into a debate of who wins or loses.

KellamLeTorneau:


Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Mr Scholar, it seems you can't ever seem to ever directly refute anything. You just bring more verses, spew them, contradict your claims and completely confuse the argument.

Why would God tell Refer to Isaac as his only son when Ishmael was still alive? Just because he was away? So what you're saying is Ishmael was an illegal child? But then Abraham was married to Hagar and are you accusing Abraham of abandoning his family?

God Himself gave the instruction that Hagar and Ishmael be sent away in chapter 21. It was after this event and others (when only the true son of promise was at home)that God tried Abraham which clarifies this perspective.

Genesis 22:1
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

Hebrews 11:17-18
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

Furthermore, considering how Abraham wanted a wife only from his kindred (no other tribe) for Isaac, Hagar (an Egyptian) was named a wife but she remained a bondwoman (and this even superseded her claims to a wife) as affirmed.Note the highlighted especially the Angel's Abraham's words

Genesis 18:6-9
But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid is in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.

7 And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. 8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. 9 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.



Yes just like the other kids from Keturah who Abraham sent away, Ishmael was also sent away because, as far as the promise and covenant was concerned, they were not to be reckoned with. In fact, the sons of Keturah were at least given gifts before being sent away. Ishmael was not even ranked together with these!



Besides, Abraham sent Ishmael and his mum off exactly as you would a slave -with bread and water, no inheritance.
Genesis 21:14
14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba.

He was not reckoned as a son (for what the word is worth) else why was he denied an inheritance?

KellamLeTorneau:


Smh, you accuse muslims of lying but here you have just revealed yourself to be the biggest liar of all. Every single christian interpretation of that accepts God was indeed referring to David but then you come up with your gibberish and claim someone else lacks understanding? Smh! Shame on you! Liar. You know nothing about your own religion and yet you claim to know about others? Or are you just lying like Paul did to deceive people into following him?


Why can't you just accept the fact? What sort of God is sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. Jesus was a prophet, just like many others before him, heck your bible should tell you that.

When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, "Who is this?"

The crowds answered, "This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee."

Matthew 21-10/11

Who spoke about lying?I spoke about not having an understanding.David was a prophet and spoke under the influence of the anointing.When he wrote those words,he was prophesying.They were not words about him but words spoken through him.

@bolded,did you re-read what is written?It says,the crowds answered.........it was the crowd that spoke about him.The words of the crowd.I hope you get it.
Now look at what is below:Luke 9:14-20

Now when Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, Who do people say that the Son of Man is?
14 And they answered, Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.
15 He said to them, But who do you [yourselves] say that I am?
16 Simon Peter replied, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 Then Jesus answered him, Blessed (happy, fortunate, and [a]to be envied) are you, Simon Bar-Jonah. For flesh and blood [men] have not revealed this to you, but My Father Who is in heaven.
18 And I tell you, you are [b]Peter [Greek, Petros—a large piece of rock], and on this rock [Greek, petra—a [c]huge rock like Gibraltar] I will build My church, and the gates of Hades (the powers of the [d]infernal region) shall [e]not overpower it [or be strong to its detriment or hold out against it].
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind (declare to be improper and unlawful) on earth [f]must be what is already bound in heaven; and whatever you loose (declare lawful) on earth [g]must be what is already loosed in heaven.
20 Then He sternly and strictly charged and warned the disciples to tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

Can you explain this passage to me?Pay attention to the words in bold!

I Will stop reading the bible if I find muhammed. I don't wanna become a terrorist

Scholar8200:

Yes just like the other kids from Keturah who Abraham sent away, Ishmael was also sent away because, as far as the promise and covenant was concerned, they were not to be reckoned with. In fact, the sons of Keturah were at least given gifts before being sent away. Ishmael was not even ranked together with these!
Besides, Abraham sent Ishmael and his mum off exactly as you would a slave -with bread and water, no inheritance.
Genesis 21:14 14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba. He was not reckoned as a son (for what the word is worth) else why was he denied an inheritance?

Reading Genesis (17:20): ”As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him . I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly . He shall become the father of twelve chieftains,[size=15pt] AND [/size] I will make of him a [size=15pt] GREAT NATION [/size] .”

We extract the following from the above verse:

1) Ishmael is BLESSED.

2) He will be FERTILE.

3) His nation will multiply

4) AND will be made into a GREAT NATION.

We can clearly see the distinction between being “a numerous nation” and “a great nation”. These two phrases could not indicate the same meaning.

Now can we ask what is “A GREAT NATION” mean?

As understood from first five books of the Old Testament,Israel was a numerous nation also by the time they reached the boarders of Palestine and yet they were called “a great nation”.

Let’s examine the verses below:

Deuteronomy, chapter 4:”
6 Observe them carefully, for thus will you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations , who will hear of all these statutes and say, 'This GREAT NATION is truly a wise and intelligent people . ' (The nation of Israel was already a huge nation in number. We see that they are called a great nation, but is it because they are numerous?)

7 For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?

8 Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today? ”

As we can see, the nation of Israel is called great because:

1) They worship God and only God.

2) They have the law of God.

An honest look at the Muslim nation today reveals that they worship the same God of Abraham and they also have a set of laws given to them in the Quran.

The nation of Ishmael has been blessed, they are numerous,and they are a great nation (a great nation for worshipping the true God and for having the law of God written down in the Quran).

thorpido:
You are not arguing intelligently.You say the scrolls are still existing.Where are they?They should be the proof,not you quoting Muhammed and hadiths which are no legal proofs.

The scrolls are in a museum somewhere. You can research that on your own.

Rilwon:


Reading Genesis (17:20): ”As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him . I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly . He shall become the father of twelve chieftains,[size=15pt] AND [/size] I will make of him a [size=15pt] GREAT NATION [/size] .”

We extract the following from the above verse:

1) Ishmael is BLESSED.

2) He will be FERTILE.

3) His nation will multiply

4) AND will be made into a GREAT NATION.

We can clearly see the distinction between being “a numerous nation” and “a great nation”. These two phrases could not indicate the same meaning.

Now can we ask what is “A GREAT NATION” mean?

As understood from first five books of the Old Testament,Israel was a numerous nation also by the time they reached the boarders of Palestine and yet they were called “a great nation”.

Let’s examine the verses below:

Deuteronomy, chapter 4:”
6 Observe them carefully, for thus will you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations , who will hear of all these statutes and say, 'This GREAT NATION is truly a wise and intelligent people . ' (The nation of Israel was already a huge nation in number. We see that they are called a great nation, but is it because they are numerous?)

7 For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?

8 Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today? ”

As we can see, the nation of Israel is called great because:

1) They worship God and only God.

2) They have the law of God.

An honest look at the Muslim nation today reveals that they worship the same God of Abraham and they also have a set of laws given to them in the Quran.

The nation of Ishmael has been blessed, they are numerous,and they are a great nation (a great nation for worshipping the true God and for having the law of God written down in the Quran).

no matter how much you twist the scriptures, you will always reprise the role of a joker
what comes first? truth or lie?

we must always learn to respect another mans religion but that does not withstand the fact we all know what in the article is true to me I don't feel it is safe praying to jesus because during jesus lifetime he prayed to his creator n many places he stated he has no power or will to do anything and he is the way n the light which is the religion of peace he brought to uswe must always learn to respect another mans religion but that does not withstand the fact we all know what in the article is true to me I don't feel it is safe praying to jesus because during jesus lifetime he prayed to his creator n many places he stated he has no power or will to do anything and he is the way n the light which is the religion of peace he brought to uswe must always learn to respect another mans religion but that does not withstand the fact we all know what in the article is true to me I don't feel it is safe praying to jesus because during jesus lifetime he prayed to his creator n many places he stated he has no power or will to do anything and he is the way n the light which is the religion of peace he brought to us

KellamLeTorneau:


The scrolls are in a museum somewhere. You can research that on your own.

Copies should have been gotten and made available by islamic scholars.Not have them still hidden somewhere.

Scholar8200:


God Himself gave the instruction that Hagar and Ishmael be sent away in chapter 21. It was after this event and others (when only the true son of promise was at home)that God tried Abraham which clarifies this perspective.

Genesis 22:1
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

Hebrews 11:17-18
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

Furthermore, considering how Abraham wanted a wife only from his kindred (no other tribe) for Isaac, Hagar (an Egyptian) was named a wife but she remained a bondwoman (and this even superseded her claims to a wife) as affirmed.Note the highlighted especially the Angel's Abraham's words

Genesis 18:6-9
But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid is in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.

7 And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. 8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. 9 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.



Yes just like the other kids from Keturah who Abraham sent away, Ishmael was also sent away because, as far as the promise and covenant was concerned, they were not to be reckoned with. In fact, the sons of Keturah were at least given gifts before being sent away. Ishmael was not even ranked together with these!



Besides, Abraham sent Ishmael and his mum off exactly as you would a slave -with bread and water, no inheritance.
Genesis 21:14
14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba.

He was not reckoned as a son (for what the word is worth) else why was he denied an inheritance?

So the lesson here is according to the bible, Abraham married a woman, begat a son, sent him away and abandoned him because his mother was an egyptian slave or because he wasn't to be reckoned with. This whole story doesn't reek to you of jewish propaganda against a certain people?

Proffdada:
no matter how much you twist the scriptures, you will always reprise the role of a joker
what comes first? truth or lie?

My response was directed to that particular post I quoted.

Ishmael was not even ranked together with these!
Besides, Abraham sent Ishmael and his mum off exactly
as you would a slave -with bread and water, no
inheritance.

I am not here to twist anything or convince anyone to accept my point, my point was directed to the above quote. Perhaps he thinks inheritance is far better than blessings, well thats left to him.

thorpido:
Copies should have been gotten and made available by islamic scholars.Not have them still hidden somewhere.

I don't understand why your messed up sense of humour signalled something funny here. The scrolls have been translated, there are many places you can get them online, if you're interested, but the most important part about ahmad I can give you a link if you're interested.

Rilwon:


My response was directed to that particular post I quoted. I am not here to twist anything or convince anyone to accept my point, my point was directed to the above quote. Perhaps he thinks inheritance is far better than blessings, well thats left to him.

what comes first? truth or lie

KellamLeTorneau:


Bow to the black stone? Lol! Come on mate! Please leave the christians to serve their god ? Christ HORUS Krishna or Osiris? Or maybe it's Mithras or Adonis?

just leave them alone! Is that hard?

truthman2012:


Do you know the teachings of the Gospel?

Jesus says '' I am the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE, nobody can come unto the Father but by ME'' (John 14:6).
Then, what is the need for Muhammad?

Jesus said '' Whatever you ask of me, that I will do.'' Do you ask in the name of Jesus?

Do you accept God as the Father?

Do you accept Jesus as the Son of God?

Those are some of what the Gospel entails.

Like I said before, I may not respond to you again, having stated the truth. I am not into a debate of who wins or loses.

Muhammad was not yet born. But yes, I believe you can't be a true muslim without accepting jesus, so whoever did not accept jesus as aprophet back then was an unbeliever. And no!why will I worship him when he himself worshipped God? Prayed to God? Confessed that only God has power? All you've done here is dig a deeper hole for your fellow christians.

Bigbang2013:
we must always learn to respect another mans religion but that does not withstand the fact we all know what in the article is true to me I don't feel it is safe praying to jesus because during jesus lifetime he prayed to his creator n many places he stated he has no power or will to do anything and he is the way n the light which is the religion of peace he brought to uswe must always learn to respect another mans religion but that does not withstand the fact we all know what in the article is true to me I don't feel it is safe praying to jesus because during jesus lifetime he prayed to his creator n many places he stated he has no power or will to do anything and he is the way n the light which is the religion of peace he brought to uswe must always learn to respect another mans religion but that does not withstand the fact we all know what in the article is true to me I don't feel it is safe praying to jesus because during jesus lifetime he prayed to his creator n many places he stated he has no power or will to do anything and he is the way n the light which is the religion of peace he brought to us

Jesus spoke these words:

And I will do [I Myself will grant] whatever you ask in My Name [as [a]presenting all that I Am], so that the Father may be glorified and extolled in (through) the Son.John 14:13

3 And when that time comes, you will ask nothing of Me [you will need to ask Me no questions]. I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, that My [b]Father will grant you whatever you ask in My Name [as [a]presenting all that I Am].[/b]John 16:23

He said pray in My Name.He said the Father is glorified in Jesus when you do that.It's a mystery but God answers in the Name of Jesus.

KellamLeTorneau:


Hmm. If we quote from the Quran, will you believe it? Is it not better if we quote out of your own book?

quote th quran only, if they don't believe, leave them than resorting to lying to promote religion that claims it is peaceful, but use violence to prove the said peace!

truthman2012:


The fact that the dead sea scroll was discovered by muslims and that it contains some verses that approve islam shows something is fishy.

Besides, who conducted the tests you claim it passed?

About EzioAditore, I wish to inform you that am not into a debate of who wins or loses. Once I have stated the truth, it is left to you to accept or reject it.

The truth remains that it is the Devil's ambition to be worshiped as God and he has achieved that through islam, hence the similarities between paganism and islam.

The test were carried out by non muslims, and infact its in a non muslim museum. And a source for biblical references.

The devils ambition is to lead all of man if possible astray. Like I said, jesus of nazareth is different from jesus christ, the pagan god christians fantasize about. Again I see no truth here, only the signs of a confused person.

Ovacoma:

quote th quran only, if they don't believe, leave them than resorting to lying to promote religion that claims it is peaceful, but use violence to prove the said peace!

Please mate, I take offense in the fact that you called me a liar. Please feel free to point out where I lied or I demand you apologise.

Rilwon:


Reading Genesis (17:20): ”As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him . I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly . He shall become the father of twelve chieftains,[size=15pt] AND [/size] I will make of him a [size=15pt] GREAT NATION [/size] .”

We extract the following from the above verse:

1) Ishmael is BLESSED.

2) He will be FERTILE.

3) His nation will multiply

4) AND will be made into a GREAT NATION.

We can clearly see the distinction between being “a numerous nation” and “a great nation”. These two phrases could not indicate the same meaning.

Now can we ask what is “A GREAT NATION” mean?

As understood from first five books of the Old Testament,Israel was a numerous nation also by the time they reached the boarders of Palestine and yet they were called “a great nation”.

Let’s examine the verses below:

Deuteronomy, chapter 4:”
6 Observe them carefully, for thus will you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations , who will hear of all these statutes and say, 'This GREAT NATION is truly a wise and intelligent people . ' (The nation of Israel was already a huge nation in number. We see that they are called a great nation, but is it because they are numerous?)

7 For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?

8 Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today? ”

As we can see, the nation of Israel is called great because:

1) They worship God and only God.

2) They have the law of God.

An honest look at the Muslim nation today reveals that they worship the same God of Abraham and they also have a set of laws given to them in the Quran.

The nation of Ishmael has been blessed, they are numerous,and they are a great nation (a great nation for worshipping the true God and for having the law of God written down in the Quran).

great in suicide bombing, great in violence, great in killing each other and Christians, great in propagating lies, great in in defending a pedopine, great in covering a highway robber (caravan raider), etc, great indeed!

KellamLeTorneau:


I don't understand why your messed up sense of humour signalled something funny here. The scrolls have been translated, there are many places you can get them online, if you're interested, but the most important part about ahmad I can give you a link if you're interested.

Sticking out my tongue to you for your comment there @bolded.I understand such reactions.It's gutter though.Doesn't it make sense to you to simply provide a copy since you have spoken so much about the scrolls?

[quotes author=KellamLeTorneau post=34455578]


The test were carried out by non muslims, and infact its in a non muslim museum. And a source for biblical references.

The devils ambition is to lead all of man if possible astray. Like I said, jesus of nazareth is different from jesus christ, the pagan god christians fantasize about. Again I see no truth here, only the signs of a confused person.[/quote]
i know one thing for sure allah is satan, and quran is a lie.

Ovacoma:

great in suicide bombing, great in violence, great in killing each other and Christians, great in propagating lies, great in in defending a pedopine, great in covering a highway robber (caravan raider), etc, great indeed!

Well, you have the right to type whatever you want with your phone; you have the right to quote whichever post you want to quote on Nairaland. But for me, my response was directed at the post I quoted, I owe you no arguement. You can as well say that part of the bible was written by muslims, or tell us that the bible God lied in that verse. Thats your cuppa.