MizJanet:


See confusion @ bold , do you know that this same old that you said will expire is the same whose foundation is said to be forever in psalm 104:5 ?

MizJanet:


You made sense , wish you could explain this to your fellow churchgoers

MizJanet:


Hehehehe , you have left the MAIN POINT sir . Explained that statement itself "earth reserved for fire"

EMILO2STAY:
it takes proper bible study to realize this, many preachers today have no clue about what the bible says yet they all claim to be filled with the holy spirit. Honestly i havent been to church for close to two years now.

Scholar8200:
Not really, Hebrews 11:22,23 shows where the spirit of the saints are prior to the rapture (when the spirits will reunite with incorruptible bodies)

but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all,[b]and to the spirits of just men made perfect[/b]the church there refers to NT believers while the just men refers to the OT saints who, without the benefits of the NT, could not be made perfect (Hebrews 11:40)

EMILO2STAY:
the bible is of no personal intepretation so u should let the bible speak for itself.

As a matter of fact hebrews 11:39 nulifies every thought of the saints in heaven as it mentions all the men of great faith and concluded by saying they did not recieve the promise, chapter 40' states that they cant be made perfect without us. Are actually perfect now?

NumberOne2:


In BOLD. Really?
You should see this thread. I wrote it for folks in your shoes. https://www.nairaland.com/2354014/dealing-hypocrisy-church

NumberOne2:


So what does the bible mean when it said:
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. - 1 Corinthians 3:13

How will the works be burnt. Can you burn works? Did it occur to you that fire also means judgement?
English! English!! English!!! Sad

NumberOne2:


Google Definition of Foundation: an underlying basis or principle for something.

FOUNDATION [basics] Is English so hard (I can help translate to your native dialect). I even put it in bracket in my first post cos I know this is the meat of your confusion. Is it so hard to see?

FOUNDATION not the STRUCTURE! The structure can change (new Heaven & Earth) but the foundation remains. Its like cutting off a big tree and leaving the root (foundation) in the ground. Will you say the tree is dead even when a new shoot comes out? SMH

MizJanet:


Man, if you got nothing to say why dont you just keep quiet ! There is a big difference between "reveal by fire" and RESERVE for fire . You failed woefully

NumberOne2:


No English still remains your problem. Lets swap the words and see if it makes sense:
Revealed by FIRE => Revealed by JUDGEMENT
Reserved for FIRE => Reserved for JUDGEMENT


Sorry I have to ask this but have you written JAMB or WAEC?

EMILO2STAY:
there is no difference between the church of today and a social club. A place u go to get refreshed, decieved an entertained is not a church of christ ... An instituition that remits 60% church funds to the headchurch instead of helping the poor is nothing short of a banking system. Open your eyes man!.

MizJanet:
see how that clueless religious fanatic is changing the wordings of his own religious book

NumberOne2:


I am not changing words, I am giving you CONTEXT! (English!)
The bible often refered to FIRE as JUDGEMENT, didnt it? Is hell not a place of judgement?

Did you know that even Animals will be judged by God?

But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. - Ge:9:4-6

Now ask me if your dog will be judged then we can start a debate. SMH.
My Last post. Go read brighter grammer or something.

Scholar8200:
very correct.

Alright what was the scenario being described in Hebrews 12:22-25? They are made perfect not by us but by what God has provided in our dispensation.
Remember that their graves were opened after the resurrection?
Hebrews 11:40
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Let me illustrate this with Revelations 6:9-11

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The altar is located in Heaven, not the grave. There is a celestial body (spirits, angels) and also the incorruptible, terrestrial body which will come at the same time of the rapture

The story of Lazarus and the rich man is also a reference point here. None of them was left to sleep in the grave.

NumberOne2:


And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: - Eph:4:11-12

I totally agree that there is fraud in church, but that is because of the human nature. The church is not for perfect people, but for perfecting people. If you were perfect, you would have been in taken just like Enoch.

How much do you PERSONALLY give to help the poor? Dont reply, just for you to ponder. Cheers

EMILO2STAY:
pls dont say what the bible didnt, the grave of abraham david isaac and jacob did not open. If it did, it would have been recorded. the saints will be resurrected into perfect body when jesus comes again not 2000yrs ago. U should begin to read the bible with understanding ,concerning revelation 6:9-10, to understand this we must understand the context. john was witnessing a vision while in spirit. So under inspiration he was seeing future events depicted in symbolysm, the fifth seal is figurative of the great tribulation, a time of great trouble preceding christ return. In this vision john sees under the alter the martyred believers who put down their life for their faith in God, these souls figuratively cry out 'avenge our blood!' this can be compared to abels blood metaphorically crying out to God Gen 4:10 . Though neither dead souls no blood can actually speak, this phrases figuratively demonstrate that a God of justice will not forget the evil deeds of mankind perpetrated against his righteouse people. This verse does not suggest that dead souls are in heaven as the bible made it clear that no man has been to heaven excerpt the son of man which came down from heaven and that is 'jesus'. Paul made it clear in 1 thess.4.16 that the dead righteous await the lord in their grave. Jesus said to the apostles where i am goin u cannot follow me now john13.36. When we allow bible to interpret itself rev. 6.9 cannot mean any one is in heaven now. Rather it is both a prophesy that martyrdom will occur and will continue untill the coming of christ.

Scholar8200:
This quote taken from 2 Peter 3:7

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief; when it comes, the heavens will disappear with a horrific noise, [size=13pt]and the celestial bodies will melt away in a blaze[/size], and the earth and every deed done on it will be laid bare. (NET)

Scholar8200:
What then will you say the story of Lazarus and the rich man depict? Why then will Jesus say to the thief on the cross ,
Luke 23:43
...Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with Me in paradise,

At least this shows that the story of Lazarus and the rich man was not an illustrative parable!

Paradise is not the grave where other saints were sleeping? Is it?

EMILO2STAY:
the parable of the richman and lazarus has been the foundation of many erronouse beliefs about hell today. Some view this not as a parable but as a true story christ told to give details about the purnishment of sinners in hell. But thorough examination of this will show that the general understanding of this scripture are fallacious and misleading.
Did u notice the rich man was not accused of any sin?, he was simply portrayed as a wealthy man living the good life. Lazarus was never said to be a righteous man, he is just one who has the misfortune to be poor and unable to care for himself.
If this story is literal then the logical implicantion is that all who is wealthy and living the good life today will burn in hell, while all the poor rihteous or not will be saved. Does anyone believe this to be the case? How can one enjoy eternal bliss in heaven if they can be able to view those in hell including there loved ones roasting alive forever? Do u believe that a human spirit have a tongue and can be thirsty for water?
These are just some of the difficulties we encounter when we take this parable literal. Remember christ thought using other parables such as the lost coin , the lost sheep , the prodigal son, the parable of the sower etc. A parable is an allegorical story meant to convey a moral lesson/spiritual meaning for the spiritualy minded. Mathew 13.1-3, 10-15.
From the scriptures above we can see that christ spoke in parables to hide the the larger spiritual truth from the spiritualy blind, which is no wonder many has got it wrong with the rich man and lazarus story.
Let us examine the story. Luke 16.19. There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
The rich man in this parable represent the jews of jesus day exemplified by the religeous teachers the pharisees and the scribes.
In the first century A.D the jews were the only people on earth with the true relgion. paul recounts the glorious station of the house of judah in romans 9.3-5. The jews were truely rich feasting on Gods spiritual blessings, yet these blessings caused them to stumble cuz it prompted them to self righteousness. They glorified in the gifts instead of glorifiying the eternal God who gave them. Instead of becoming a royal priesthood that should be a blessing to all nations, they loathed and despised the surrounding gentile people. Certainly their table became a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution. Rom.11.9.
But there was a certain begger full of sores who laid at his gate desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich mans table, moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
In contrast to the richman we see lazarus. Notice he is depicted as a beggar. This is an apt describtion of the Gentiles who laid at the gate of judah. Paul describes the predicament of the Gentiles before they received christ in ephisians 2.12.

From the passage above the gentiles were certainly excluded from the common wealth of israel, strangers to the covenant of promise and without hope and God in this world. The gentiles were beggars located outside judah and longing to be fed spiritual crumbs from the table of the divinenly blessed jews. The jews considered the gentiles to be unclean dogs, even christ used this comparison when conversing with the phoenician woman along the region of tyre. Mark 7.24-30.

Luke 16.22. So it was that lazarus died and was carried by the angels to abrahams bossom, and the richman died and was buried.
Did you notice from the above passage that lazarus was not buried? But carried by the angels to abrahams bossom. If this passage were to be taken literal then all poor who beg for food will be carried by the angels to pardise at death. The death of both the rich man(who represented the jews) and lazarus ( who represented the gentiles nations) are symbolic in this parable. Here there demise depicts an elemental change in the status and position of the two groups. To confirm this, lets look at the meaning of lazarus been in carried to abrahams bossom. The figurative meaning of been in one's bossom is to be in position of closeness, to be highly regarded. John.13.23. Paul explains this imagery in galatians 3.6-9

Scholar8200:
Luke 23:43 shows that people do not go to their graves to sleep there except you mean that paradise is synonymous to the grave.

Luke 23:43
...Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with Me in paradise,
This was said to the thief on the cross.

Consider Genesis 49:33

And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people.

Jacob died and was gathered unto his people. This clearly shows that he did not lay resting in the grave. Else it should just say he was laid in the grave. There was a gathering to people gone before.

Also see
Matthew 22:32

I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

This was said when those mentioned had left this world but Jesus was saying here (referring to the resurrection) that, if those people were not living elsewhere, God wont introduce Himself with the names of dead men in graves. In other words, they left this world and lived on elsewhere.

Where then will you say Enoch and Elijah were carried to If all the other OT saints that saw death are sleeping in their graves? If you say paradise,were they the only two there? If you say Heaven then remember that Jesus made a way for us to enter there by His blood hence sans the blood no entry to Heaven (where God's Throne is).

EMILO2STAY:
the bible is of no personal interpretation. Why dont u allow the bible to explain itself before jumping into hasty conclutions.

Jesus christ came to die and defeat death by resurrecting on the third day, he never went to paradise or heaven or any imaginary place. We know this because christ said 'i am not yet ascended to my father john 20.17, mathew 12.40.paul also comfirmed it in 1 corinthians 15.3-4, so the bible nowhere said that his body was buried and his spirit went to paradise or heaven. Jesus died and went only to the grave, therefore the criminal could not have gone to heaven with jesus because jesus did not go to heaven that day. paul confirmed this again in ephisians 4.9

A fundamental principle to sound bible study is to carefully check the context. Notice the specific wording of the mans request. 'lord rememeber me when you come into your kingdom', this kingdom is the kingdom that christ will establish at his return. Not abrahams bossom or an imaginary place we go when we die.

Notice also jesus response to him " you will be with me in paradise.

This term paradise is not abrahams bossom or any other imaginary place we go when we die , but refers only to heaven. 2 corinthians 12.2-4, revelation 2.7,rev.22.2.this explains that the tree of life is in the new jerusalem. Rev.21.2-3. After the resurrection of the dead mentioned in rev.20. Only at that time will men dwell with jesus in paradise.

Now putting all these scripture together, we can see that the paradise mentioned here in which jesus will dwell with men is still at a future time.

Certainly the true meaning ofthe passage would be better understood if the comma had been placed after the word today.

We need to understand first that original text of the bible(GREEK for the new testament and hebrew and aramaic for old testament) contains no punctuations.

Part of jesus reply was " assurredly i say to you today", was a common hebrew idiom, which is constantly used for every solemn emphasis. an example of this hebrew phrase, worded similarly to christ statement is found in deuteronomy 30.18( i announce to you today that you shall surelly perish) and acts.20.26(therefore i declare to you today that i am innocent of the blood of all men).

Many centuries later when punctuation were inserted, jesus meaning was distorted by the wrong placement of the comma and the hebrew figure was obscured. Several other bible translations and reference works like the rotherdam translation the emphatic diaglott, the concordant literal new testament etc recognize the hebrew idiom and place the coma correctly after the word "today" for proper punctuation.

In conclution jesus never said nor implied that the dying man would be with him in heaven or paradise that very day, jesus was encouraging him by solemnly assuring him that a time will come in God's future kingdom on earth when he will be resurrected and be united with christ again.

EMILO2STAY:
the bible is of no personal interpretation. Why dont u allow the bible to explain itself before jumping into hasty conclutions.

This term paradise is not abrahams bossom or any other imaginary place we go when we die , but refers only to heaven. 2 corinthians 12.2-4, revelation 2.7,rev.22.2.this explains that the tree of life is in the new jerusalem. Rev.21.2-3. After the resurrection of the dead mentioned in rev.20. Only at that time will men dwell with jesus in paradise.

In conclution jesus never said nor implied that the dying man would be with him in heaven or paradise that very day, jesus was encouraging him by solemnly assuring him that a time will come in God's future kingdom on earth when he will be resurrected and be united with christ again.

Naital:


Very funny.

Your Holy Book obviously thinks the celestial bodies are tiny crayons that can be melted away.

I laff in Japanese

NumberOne2:


In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. - John 14:2-3

So where is this fathers house that Jesus is going to? Is it the house of Joseph in Nazareth his earthly father or the house of God his heavenly father?

EMILO2STAY:
whats your argument pls, i dont get you.

NumberOne2:


What is funny here, have you not seen mountains melt by volcanic activity? Have you not heard of Supernova the death of a star?

Naital:


I have seen mountains grow not melt away ... due to volcanic activities (besides I don't see what volcanoes have in common with melting stars).

Only super massive stars end in supernovae. Supernovae are not melting stars. In Physics (as well as English), melting refers to phase transformation from solid to liquid. Stars are gaint bodies of hot ionized gases called plasma. Gases (Plasma) don't melt.

Scholar8200:
Not 'all of' us. You dont expect a t-shirt to detail all the eschatological happenings do you?! It's their way of summarising what will happen should they die.
Everything will be restored as it was in the beginning. (before the fall)

Naital:


I have seen mountains grow not melt away ... due to volcanic activities (besides I don't see what volcanoes have in common with melting stars).

Only super massive stars end in supernovae. Supernovae are not melting stars. In Physics (as well as English), melting refers to phase transformation from solid to liquid. Stars are gaint bodies of hot ionized gases called plasma. Gases (Plasma) don't melt.