italo:


You didn't answer the question. You dubiously avoided it as usual.

Do you believe Acts2:38 22:16 when they say Baptism remits sins?

Since Peter spoke the first reference, let's consider what he(by Inspiration) wrote in 1 Peter 3:20,21

20 which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Here Peter points out that baptism is a figure/semblance of a deep spiritual occurrence-our salvation as a result of faith in the death and resurrection of Christ(after repentance).
Consider the amplified rendition of verse 21

21 And baptism, which is a figure [of their deliverance], does now also save you [from inward questionings and fears], not by the removing of outward body filth [bathing], but by [providing you with] the answer of a good and clear conscience (inward cleanness and peace) before God [because you are demonstrating what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The same word figure is used here:
Hebrews 11:19
18 of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Isaac was not literally killed but the faith of Abraham that underlied the whole process was the focus of the writer here.

Baptism therefore is a figure, an outward demonstration of that which we believe is ours by faith.

Acts 22:16 was spoken to brother (one who had believed in and surrendered to the Lord Jesus and had already become a member of the family). He was here called to make a public demonstration of that which had already took place when he believed.

italo:


I will show you where you contradicted the Holy Spirit again. Not my words, but the Holy Spirit's words vs your personal words.



The Holy Spirit:
Act22:16 And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.’

"Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38)

Do you believe these verses are true?

Consider the quote i referred you to in Revelations 1:5
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Compare this with:

Here Peter points out that baptism is a figure/semblance of a deep spiritual occurrence-our salvation as a result of faith in the death and resurrection of Christ(after repentance).
Consider the amplified rendition of verse 21

21 And baptism, which is a figure [of their deliverance], does now also save you [from inward questionings and fears], not by the removing of outward body filth [bathing], but by [providing you with] the answer of a good and clear conscience (inward cleanness and peace) before God [because you are demonstrating what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

btoks:
[b][/b]
Some of the verses you quoted will apply to adults who can definitely make that profession of faith.
You have however missed out a number of other verses:

Paul in Col. 2:11–12 in effect states that baptism has replaced circumcision. We know that circumcision was done for babies in the OT in anticipation of being raised in a Jewish famly. Would he have used the word ‘circumcision’ that was mainly linked to babies if he thought baptism wasn’t for babies? ( I do know some adults were circumcised). Baptism also then applies to babies in anticipation of being raised in a christian family. See Lydia in Acts 16:15 who was baptised with her household, read further to v33 where the jailer and his family were baptised.
Also note that Jesus comments about children in Matt 19:13-14

Baptism did not replace circumcision! This was an Epistle to gentiles!The households you are referring to can not be assumed since details are not given.
Colossians 2:11
11 in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
This simply means that our old man was cut-off/crucified when Christ was cut-off/crucified, just like Romans 6:6 puts it:
knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

The best way to understand early christiantiny is by looking at how it was practised in the first few centuries. See these writings from some early church fathers:

Rather the best way to appreciate the Faith of Christ is by looking unto Jesus and His Word and depending on the Holy Spirit.

Irenaeus in AD 189 -"He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age" (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus in AD 215
"Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

Augustine in AD 400 - "What the universal Church holds, not as instituted by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. Since others respond for children, so that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete for them, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24:31 [A.D. 400]).

This is what subverted Israel such that they did not recognise the Messiah- tradition being exalted over the Word!
I respect these church fathers but their teachings must be compared with the Bible; if there is any contradiction, the Bible supersedes.

Even the partaking of the Lord's supper was to be preceded by the command:
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.

esere826:


Acts 22:16
I thought this was Paul narrating what Ananias said to him? I read the verse again, and could not find anyone saying that the "the Holy Spirit said..."

Acts 2: 38
that was peter speaking, not the Holy Spirit
............................................................

Don't get me wrong
I'm not at this point of interjection into you train of thoughts arguing whether baptism remits sin or not
I'm just setting the record straight about who was speaking in those verses you quoted

we probably can take it on from there

So you believe Peter and Ananias were teaching error when they said baptism remits sin?

MuttleyLaff:
italo, I know why, where, when and how I got entangled in this matter with Kei144
but for you I'll leave you with this strongly instructive verse by the one who originally practised water baptism

Matthew 3:11
"I baptize you with water for repentance.
But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry.
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Matthew 3:11
"I baptize with water those who repent of their sins and turn to God.
But someone is coming soon who is greater than I am--so much greater that I'm not worthy even to be his slave and carry his sandals.
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Amen! I believe Matt 3:11 that Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Do you believe Acts 2:38 and 22:16 when they say Water Baptism remits sin?

italo:
So you believe Peter and Ananias were teaching error when they said baptism remits sin?

Do you agree that there is no record of Paul ever being water baptised?

italo:
Amen! I believe Matt 3:11 that Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Do you believe Acts 2:38 and 22:16 when they say Water Baptism remits sin?

Look at you trying to give the bible a helping hand
Where is water baptism in Acts 2:38?
What I read is be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
this is in accordance with what John the Baptist brought attention to in Matthew 3:11,
The real deal, the more powerful stuff, which you took delight in and agreed with

Scholar8200:
Since Peter spoke the first reference, let's consider what he(by Inspiration) wrote in 1 Peter 3:20,21

20 which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Here Peter points out that baptism is a figure/semblance of a deep spiritual occurrence-our salvation as a result of faith in the death and resurrection of Christ(after repentance).
Consider the amplified rendition of verse 21

21 And baptism, which is a figure [of their deliverance], does now also save you [from inward questionings and fears], not by the removing of outward body filth [bathing], but by [providing you with] the answer of a good and clear conscience (inward cleanness and peace) before God [because you are demonstrating what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The same word figure is used here:
Hebrews 11:19
18 of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Isaac was not literally killed but the faith of Abraham that underlied the whole process was the focus of the writer here.

Baptism therefore is a figure, an outward demonstration of that which we believe is ours by faith.

Acts 22:16 was spoken to brother (one who had believed in and surrendered to the Lord Jesus and had already become a member of the family). He was here called to make a public demonstration of that which had already took place when he believed.

The question was not whether baptism is a figure or an alphabet sir.

The question was:

Do you believe Acts 2:38 and 22:16 when they say Water Baptism remits sin?

Now Ananias gave his terms of engagement in Acts 9 thus:
Acts 9:17,18

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
MutleyLaff's statement suggests to me (I didnt notice that till he/she pointed it out) that the baptism spoken of in vs 18 is the one referred to in vs 17.

Acts 22:16 was a reference to the above. The Ethiopian Eunuch was baptized in water; hence Paul must have been so baptised but it seems, by the foregoing, that was not recorded.

Paul himself would later say:

1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Scholar8200:
Consider the quote i referred you to in Revelations 1:5
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Compare this with:

Your stories are too much.

Does Baptism remit sin. Yes or no?

MuttleyLaff:
Do you agree that there is no record of Paul ever being water baptised?


Look at you trying to give the bible a helping hand
Where is water baptism in Acts 2:38?
What I read is be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
this is in accordance with what John the Baptist brought attention to in Matthew 3:11,
The real deal, the more powerful stuff, which you took delight in and agreed with

Your point is that Baptism saves, but not water baptism.

What then is the use of water baptism?

italo:
Your point is that Baptism saves, but not water baptism.

What then is the use of water baptism?

Affirmative.
Water baptism is a shadow of the real deal,

It is less powerful than the real baptism of the Holy Ghost and Fire.

Like tithing it is past its "best before" date but people still use tithing as well as water baptism for sentimental or ignorance reason.

God has no problem with both, as that's the level such presently are.

Am more concerned with people such as kei144 trying to twist John 3:5 has having to do with physical or literal water baptism, which obviously it doesn't.

@ Muttleylaff and scholar8200,

Can a child be baptized with the Holy Spirit and Fire?

MuttleyLaff:
Affirmative.
Water baptism is a shadow of the real deal,

It is less powerful than the real baptism of the Holy Ghost and Fire.

Like tithing it is past its "best before" date but people still use tithing as well as water baptism for sentimental or ignorance reason.

God has no problem with both, as that's the level such presently are.

Am more concerned with people such as kei144 trying to twist John 3:5 has having to do with physical or literal water baptism, which obviously it doesn't.

So if someone has been baptized by the Holy Spirit, there is no need for water baptism?

Jesus mentions "water" and "spirit" yet you say kei444 is twisting.

When "water" is not explicitly mentioned you say it is not water baptism. When water is explicitly mentioned, you still say it is not water baptism.

Why?

italo:
@ Muttleylaff and scholar8200,

Can a child be baptized with the Holy Spirit and Fire?

A child who , having reached the age of accountability, repents and surrenders to Christ is a worthy candidate! See:

Acts 2:38,39
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Note that the condition above in vs 38 stands for both they and their children.

italo:


Your stories are too much.

Does Baptism remit sin. Yes or no?

That was a Bible verse sire! Now because it contradicts your view, it is no longer Holy Spirit inspired, but story?!

italo:


The question was not whether baptism is a figure or an alphabet sir.

The question was:

Do you believe Acts 2:38 and 22:16 when they say Water Baptism remits sin?

The use of the word in the Holy Spirit inspired scripture, makes it worthy of our attention.

Scholar8200:
That was a Bible verse sire! Now because it contradicts your view, it is no longer Holy Spirit inspired, but story?!

Scholar8200:
The use of the word in the Holy Spirit inspired scripture, makes it worthy of our attention.

Does Baptism remit sin. Yes or no?

@muttleylaff and scholar8200

1Pet3:20 who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Which baptism does the saving of the eight through water prefigure?

Water baptism or Holy Spirit baptism?

italo:
@muttleylaff and scholar8200

1Pet3:20 who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Which baptism does the saving of the eight through water prefigure?

Water baptism or Holy Spirit baptism?

First are we agreed on the essence of the word,'figure' as used in the above passage and the meaning as attested by Hebrews 11:19 as a symbol or type of the real?

italo:


Does Baptism remit sin. Yes or no?

What remits sin? Let Jesus answer:
Matthew 26:28
28 for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

and that is because

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Hebrews 9:22

Scholar8200:
What remits sin? Let Jesus answer:
Matthew 26:28
28 for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

and that is because

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Hebrews 9:22

So Acts 2:38 is not scripture?

italo:


So Acts 2:38 is not scripture?

Says? Kindly reconcile Acts 2:38 and Matthew 26:28. Feel free to use other scriptures to back up your position.

italo:


The question was not whether baptism is a figure or an alphabet sir.

The question was:

Do you believe Acts 2:38 and 22:16 when they say Water Baptism remits sin?

Water baptism does not remit sin but only the blood of Jesus.

In Acts 2:38. Then Peter said to them, Repent, and let every one of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
41. Then those who gladly received his word were baptised..

Ordinarily here, one can understand it as water baptism being for the remission of sin, but it is not so. Before we make a conclusion on a passage, we ought to verify it from other passages, if not, we believe error.
Only the blood of Jesus remits (frees one from) sin by 'repenting from sin' and 'believing on Jesus'
Mt.26:28 For this is My blood of the new Covenant, which is shed for many for the REMISSION of sins

Acts 22:16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptised, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (KJV)
16. And now, why wait any longer? Get up and be baptised and have your sins washed away by praying to Him. (GB).
It is only by calling upon the name of the Lord, Jesus that makes a man free from sin and not water baptism.
Remember that Paul was reporting what happened to him. For better understanding, let us see the original story.
Acts 9:18. Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptised. Here, Paul had repented and had become a believer prior to his baptism. It was never his baptism that washed his sins away.

If water baptism remits sin, where these believers saved without it?
Acts 4:4 However, many of those who heard the word BELIEVED; and the number of the men came to the about five thousand.
Acts 13:12 Then the proconsul (governor) BELIEVED, when he saw what had been done, being astonished at the teaching of the Lord.
Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed for eternal life BELIEVED.
Acts 16:31 BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be SAVED, you and your household. They believed and got saved from their sins, before their water baptism.
Acts 17:4 And some of them were persuaded: and a great multitude of the devout Greeks; and not a few of the leading women, joined Paul and Silas.
12. Therefore many of them BELIEVED, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men.
34. However some men joined him and BELIEVED.....
Acts 18:8 Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, BELIEVED on the Lord with his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, BELIEVED, and were BAPTIZED. and so on.

What I want to show here is that not everyone that believed was baptized by the apostles. This is b/c the only things needed for one to be free from sin are 'repenting from sin' and 'believing on the Lord Jesus'. Water baptism is an OUTWARD show of what has happened to one's life INWARDLY.

Scholar8200:
First are we agreed on the essence of the word,'figure' as used in the above passage and the meaning as attested by Hebrews 11:19 as a symbol or type of the real?

Yes

Barnabaseloka:

Water baptism does not remit sin but only the blood of Jesus.

In Acts 2:38. Then Peter said to them, Repent, and let every one of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
41. Then those who gladly received his word were baptised..

Ordinarily here, one can understand it as water baptism being for the remission of sin, but it is not so. Before we make a conclusion on a passage, we ought to verify it from other passages, if not, we believe error.
Only the blood of Jesus remits (frees one from) sin by 'repenting from sin' and 'believing on Jesus'
Mt.26:28 For this is My blood of the new Covenant, which is shed for many for the REMISSION of sins

Acts 22:16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptised, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (KJV)
16. And now, why wait any longer? Get up and be baptised and have your sins washed away by praying to Him. (GB).
It is only by calling upon the name of the Lord, Jesus that makes a man free from sin and not water baptism.
Remember that Paul was reporting what happened to him. For better understanding, let us see the original story.
Acts 9:18. Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptised. Here, Paul had repented and had become a believer prior to his baptism. It was never his baptism that washed his sins away.

If water baptism remits sin, where these believers saved without it?
Acts 4:4 However, many of those who heard the word BELIEVED; and the number of the men came to the about five thousand.
Acts 13:12 Then the proconsul (governor) BELIEVED, when he saw what had been done, being astonished at the teaching of the Lord.
Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed for eternal life BELIEVED.
Acts 16:31 BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be SAVED, you and your household. They believed and got saved from their sins, before their water baptism.
Acts 17:4 And some of them were persuaded: and a great multitude of the devout Greeks; and not a few of the leading women, joined Paul and Silas.
12. Therefore many of them BELIEVED, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men.
34. However some men joined him and BELIEVED.....
Acts 18:8 Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, BELIEVED on the Lord with his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, BELIEVED, and were BAPTIZED. and so on.

What I want to show here is that not everyone that believed was baptized by the apostles. This is b/c the only things needed for one to be free from sin are 'repenting from sin' and 'believing on the Lord Jesus'. Water baptism is an OUTWARD show of what has happened to one's life INWARDLY.

You mean Peter must have been mistaken in Acts 2:38.

italo:


So you believe Peter and Ananias were teaching error when they said baptism remits sin?

Before we go on to answering this question, please kindly confirm if you agree with me that there is no indication or proof that it was the Holy Spirit that said the statements that you ascribed to him.

This would be helpful in laying some solid foundation for our next line of assertions.
Remember that I have not yet attempted to make sense of what those scriptures say

Thanks

Scholar8200:
Says? Kindly reconcile Acts 2:38 and Matthew 26:28. Feel free to use other scriptures to back up your position.

Very easy to reconcile.

Matt26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent, and let every one of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Both statements are true. One who is baptized has accepted Jesus (if he's up to the age of reason) and his blood.

One who rejects baptism has rejected Jesus (and his blood) who commanded us to be baptized.

What do you say?

That Acts2:38 is an error? Baptism is not for remission of sin?

esere826:


Before we go on to answering this question, please kindly confirm if you agree with me that there is no indication or proof that it was the Holy Spirit that said the statements that you ascribed to him.

This would be helpful in laying some solid foundation for our next line of assertions.
Remember that I have not yet attempted to make sense of what those scriptures say

Thanks

For me, there is an indication/proof that the Holy Spirit spoke through those men. The Catholic Church told me that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit to teach all truth.

italo:


You mean Peter must have been mistaken in Acts 2:38.

Mistaken as in what? Make your post clearer. And I hope you read my post carefully before commenting?

Barnabaseloka:

Mistaken as in what? Make your post clearer. And I hope you read my post carefully before commenting?

Peter said clearly that Baptism is "for remission of sin?"

Was he mistaken?

[quote author=italo post=34859520]

Very easy to reconcile.

Matt26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.

One who rejects baptism has rejected Jesus (and his blood) who commanded us to be baptized./quote]
If one has believed in Christ Jesus but has not been baptised is he saved? And what about the believers in Acts that believed but were not baptised, were they saved?

italo:


Very easy to reconcile.

Matt26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent, and let every one of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Both statements are true. One who is baptized has accepted Jesus (if he's up to the age of reason) and his blood.

One who rejects baptism has rejected Jesus (and his blood) who commanded us to be baptized.

What do you say?

That Acts2:38 is an error? Baptism is not for remission of sin?

As regards the highlighted, are you saying all who get baptised are automatic believers? And would you opine that all who partake of the Lord's supper partake of it worthily or are made worthy by partaking when scripture clearly talks of those who partake unworthily and lists some of the consequences.

Pls go through the Acts of the Apostles and show me one person who was baptised before his confession of faith in Christ. Remission of sins takes place at that point when, after repentance, we believe with our heart, in the Redemption in His Blood.
Romans 3:25
25 whom God hath set forth to be a[b] propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past[/b], through the forbearance of God;

If we will remain within the scripture (and not squeeze in our own beliefs) this is what I believe reconciles both. Else why did Peter respond to their cry with the command Repent?

Baptism was an act carried out as a figure/type/symbol of the resultant spiritual events that occurred to the convert, as a response to his confessing with his mouth that which he believed with his heart.