The household of Cornelius is a striking illustration of all I have been saying; thankfully, Peter said these:

Acts 15:8,9
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 and put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Note that all these took place before they were baptised in water as a demonstration of the above:

Acts 10:44-48
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

They had already been saved and purified and filled with the Spirit before water baptism ever came up!

italo:


Peter said clearly that Baptism is "for remission of sin?"

Was he mistaken?

You want to trap me with a 'yes' or a 'no'. Let us take it gradually to arrive at the best answer. This is b/c other passages are there to explain what Peter meant. Know that my answer will either contradict the scriptures or uphold them.
The first word Peter used was REPENT, before 'BE BAPTIZED'. Do you agree that 'REPENT' here also includes 'turn away from your sins and believe on the Lord Jesus' before baptism?

Barnabaseloka:


If one has believed in Christ Jesus but has not been baptised is he saved? And what about the believers in Acts that believed but were not baptised, were they saved?

If one has believed, but has not been baptized due to no fault of his, he is saved.

If one has believed in Jesus but has willfully rejected baptism due to his own fault, he has rejected Jesus' word and is not saved.

Which particular believers in Acts?

Do you think that saying something is necessary for salvation means God will not look at your circumstances?

Do you know that some people who have not even believed in Jesus will go to heaven?

It depends on their conscience.

Barnabaseloka:




You want to trap me with a 'yes' or a 'no'. Let us take it gradually to arrive at the best answer. This is b/c other passages are there to explain what Peter meant. Know that my answer will either contradict the scriptures or uphold them.
The first word Peter used was REPENT, before 'BE BAPTIZED'. Do you agree that 'REPENT' here also includes 'turn away from your sins and believe on the Lord Jesus' before baptism?

Yes. Baptism entails repentance, accepting Jesus, washing of water and the action of the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is not just pouring water on your head as footballers do on the pitch.

When you ask me questions, I answer them. When I ask you, you dodge them with all sorts of excuses because answering them will reveal the flaws in your belief.

I'm not trapping you. It's just a simple question.

Was Peter mistaken in saying Baptism is for remission of sin?

Or was he correct?

Scholar8200:
As regards the highlighted, are you saying all who get baptised are automatic believers? And would you opine that all who partake of the Lord's supper partake of it worthily or are made worthy by partaking when scripture clearly talks of those who partake unworthily and lists some of the consequences.

Pls go through the Acts of the Apostles and show me one person who was baptised before his confession of faith in Christ. Remission of sins takes place at that point when, after repentance, we believe with our heart, in the Redemption in His Blood.
Romans 3:25
25 whom God hath set forth to be a[b] propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past[/b], through the forbearance of God;

If we will remain within the scripture (and not squeeze in our own beliefs) this is what I believe reconciles both. Else why did Peter respond to their cry with the command Repent?

Baptism was an act carried out as a figure/type/symbol of the resultant spiritual events that occurred to the convert, as a response to his confessing with his mouth that which he believed with his heart.

Again, I answered your question and you continue to dodge mine. You asked me to reconcile the verses and I did.

I asked a question:

What do you say about the verses? Acts 2:38 is an error? Is baptism not for remission of sin?

italo:


Again, I answered your question. You asked me to reconcile the verses and I did.

I asked a question:

What do you say about the verses? Acts 2:38 is an error? Is baptism not for remission of sin?

Oga, be careful how you read into scriptures.....read those passages of Acts again from different translations and follow punctuations sir. The question you should be answering by yourself is:

Can scripture says we receive remission\forgiveness of sin in the blood of Christ and at the same time through (water) baptism? More like saying, can one eat through the mouth and at the same time through the ear? If the scripture is saying, we're saved by (water) baptism, then what is the purpose of finished works of Christ and has Christ come and died in vain? If the scripture is saying, we're saved by Grace through faith (in the finished works of Christ), then (water) baptism plays no role in our salvation....which one of them?

italo:


For me, there is an indication/proof that the Holy Spirit spoke through those men. .....

fair enough. I'll work with your belief. Now back to your verses which were:

(1)Act22:16 And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.’

(2) "Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38)

Looking at both verses it seems to indicate a process
baptise>> sins washed away >> then Holy Spirit gift received

I guess we all agree with this process. the challenge we all have is agreeing to what constitutes baptism

the original tradition seemed to indicate that water baptism was done inside water. I'm sure you and I both agree with this
Baptists and those after them believe that water baptism involves being dipped into water, while Catholics and some others believe that sprinkling of water over the head will suffice.

Now, let's push this further but carefully
when in a desert, with a bottle of water
- The Catholic approach suggests that a person can be baptised
- the Baptist approach suggests that a person cannot be baptized

when in a desert, with no water
- The Catholic approach suggests that a person cannot be baptised
- the Baptist approach suggests that a person cannot be baptized

Now, if for any reason it is true that water baptism is the start of the process for the remission of sin
then, he who is stuck in the desert and wants Jesus is on his own.... abi, is saliva also accepted in place of water?


After you've spared some thought on this, and given your view, I might push it further to shed some light on water baptism

@italo

I just now read an earlier post you wrote which answers the question I raised above^^
I don't completely agree with you, but accept that you are have the rights to your beliefs

My belief is that at the point you accept Jesus, you are given a new life (baptised into Christ)
I believe that acceptance is primarily in the heart, but is commonly intertwined with various kinds of physical demonstrations such as

(1) water baptism (whether by immersion or sprinkling),
(2) confession with your mouth or
(3) other symbolisms (for example, if one is dumb, muttering or shedding tears might be that conscious acceptance link into the new birth)

Goshen360:


Oga, be careful how you read into scriptures.....read those passages of Acts again from different translations and follow punctuations sir. The question you should be answering by yourself is:

Can scripture says we receive remission\forgiveness of sin in the blood of Christ and at the same time through (water) baptism? More like saying, can one eat through the mouth and at the same time through the ear? If the scripture is saying, we're saved by (water) baptism, then what is the purpose of finished works of Christ and has Christ come and died in vain? If the scripture is saying, we're saved by Grace through faith (in the finished works of Christ), then (water) baptism plays no role in our salvation....which one of them?

No need for epistles.

Acts 2:38 clearly says baptism is for remission of sin. Do you agree with that? Yes or no?

esere826:

fair enough. I'll work with your belief. Now back to your verses which were:

(1)Act22:16 And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.’

(2) "Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38)

Looking at both verses it seems to indicate a process
baptise>> sins washed away >> then Holy Spirit gift received

I guess we all agree with this process. the challenge we all have is agreeing to what constitutes baptism

the original tradition seemed to indicate that water baptism was done inside water. I'm sure you and I both agree with this
Baptists and those after them believe that water baptism involves being dipped into water, while Catholics and some others believe that sprinkling of water over the head will suffice.

Now, let's push this further but carefully
when in a desert, with a bottle of water
- The Catholic approach suggests that a person can be baptised
- the Baptist approach suggests that a person cannot be baptized

when in a desert, with no water
- The Catholic approach suggests that a person cannot be baptised
- the Baptist approach suggests that a person cannot be baptized

Now, if for any reason it is true that water baptism is the start of the process for the remission of sin
then, he who is stuck in the desert and wants Jesus is on his own.... abi, is saliva also accepted in place of water?


After you've spared some thought on this, and given your view, I might push it further to shed some light on water baptism

Baptism is the ordinary way to enter the Christian life. However, if a person cannot be baptized, through no fault of theirs, God can still accept them into this life.

Similarly, I ask you who say that we are saved by faith and baptism of the spirit...

Are you saying all who never heard of Jesus before they died but did good according to the dictates of their conscience shall go to hell?

esere826:
@italo

I just now read an earlier post you wrote which answers the question I raised above^^
I don't completely agree with you, but accept that you are have the rights to your beliefs

My belief is that at the point you accept Jesus, you are given a new life (baptised into Christ)
I believe that acceptance is primarily in the heart, but is commonly intertwined with various kinds of physical demonstrations such as

(1) water baptism (whether by immersion or sprinkling),
(2) confession with your mouth or
(3) other symbolisms (for example, if one is dumb, muttering or shedding tears might be that conscious acceptance link into the new birth)

Paul already believed, yet he had to be baptized for his sins to be washed away.

It's in Acts 22:16.

Was he saved when his sins were not yet washed away?

italo:


If one has believed, but has not been baptized due to no fault of his, he is saved.

If one has believed in Jesus but has willfully rejected baptism due to his own fault, he has rejected Jesus' word and is not saved.

Which particular believers in Acts?

Do you think that saying something is necessary for salvation means God will not look at your circumstances?

Do you know that some people who have not even believed in Jesus will go to heaven?

It depends on their conscience.

There is no one who has believed that will not want to go through water baptism. Some of them might not have understood its significance. When they do, they will surely go for it.

Those that BELIEVED but were NOT BAPTIZED:
Acts 2:47 praising God and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were SAVED.
Acts 4:4 However, many of those who heard the word BELIEVED; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.
Acts 5:14 And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women.
Acts 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number BELIEVED and turned to the Lord.
Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life BELIEVED.
Acts 14:1 Now it happened in Iconium that they went together to the synagogue of the Jews, and so spoke that a great multitude both of the Jews and of the Greeks BELIEVED.
Acts 17:4 And some of them were persuaded, and a great multitude of the devout Greeks, and not a few of the leading women, JOINED Paul and Silas.
12. Therefore many of them BELIEVED, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as the men.
34. However, some men joined him and BELIEVED, among them Dionysius, the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them. And so on.

Those that believed and were baptised:
Acts 2:41 Then those who gladly RECEIVED the word were BAPTIZED..
Acts 8:12-13
12. But when they BELIEVED Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were BAPTIZED.
13. Then Simon himself also BELIEVED; and when he was BAPTIZED, continued with PHILIP..
37.... And he answered and said, I BELIEVE that Jesus Christ is the Son of God
38. ..... And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he BAPTIZED him.
Acts 9:18.... And he arose and was BAPTIZED.
Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be BAPTIZED in the name of Lord... And so on.
Not everyone that BELIEVED was BAPTIZED.

Note: Rom.10:9 that If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you SHALL BE SAVED.

Those that died before jesus paid the price for the sins of the world will be judged by their conscience. But after His death and resurrection, God puts anyone right with Himself through his/her faith in Christ Jesus ONLY.

italo:
@ Muttleylaff and scholar8200,

Can a child be baptized with the Holy Spirit and Fire?

God is not a respecter of persons
Anybody regardless of sex, age or gender can be baptized with the Holy Spirit and Fire

Acts 2:17
In the last days,' God says,
'I will pour out my Spirit upon all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy.
Your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams

italo:
So if someone has been baptized by the Holy Spirit, there is no need for water baptism?

There is no need for tithing but people still tithe dont they

italo:
Jesus mentions "water" and "spirit" yet you say kei444 is twisting.

Of course Jesus mentioned "water" and "spirit" but tell us was the "water" literal immersion water.
In that verse, was it physical baptism water? Of course not, it isnt

italo:
When "water" is not explicitly mentioned you say it is not water baptism. When water is explicitly mentioned, you still say it is not water baptism.

Because whenever baptism is mentioned you automatically jump to conclusion and presume it is water baptism, when it actually isnt.

italo:
Why?

Ah-ha, there you are.
kei444 knows what am on about that is why he is shy of addressing what he wrote concerning John 3:5 which I confronted him about

I presented the same verse to you, in one of those six itemised quetions so that all could see but you too baulked off John 3:5

Now you're asking why, if you really want to know why and if you have any appreciation for Greek you might look up the Greek word "huetos" used for water in John 3:5 and tell all, what kind of water (i.e. baptism water or not) did Jesus mention in John 3:5?

Whilst at it, also inform all interested, what that water in John 3:5 symbolises

italo:
@muttleylaff and scholar8200

1Pet3:20 who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21 And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Which baptism does the saving of the eight through water prefigure?

Water baptism or Holy Spirit baptism?

Are you really not familiar or conversant with allegories for the word of God and Spirit of God that refreshes and keeps one alive?
Was it a case of the eight immersed in water that saved them
Or was it a case of they immersed themselves in the the word of God and Spirit of God which saved them?

italo:


Yes. Baptism entails repentance, accepting Jesus, washing of water and the action of the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is not just pouring water on your head as footballers do on the pitch.

When you ask me questions, I answer them. When I ask you, you dodge them with all sorts of excuses because answering them will reveal the flaws in your belief.

I'm not trapping you. It's just a simple question.

Was Peter mistaken in saying Baptism is for remission of sin?

Or was he correct?

I am not averting your questions. I have to lay foundation first so that my answers will not be contradictory to the scriptures.
Baptism entails repentance in the sense that one must 'repent' before one is 'baptized'. At the point of repentance, the person becomes washed with the blood of Jesus and becomes a new person. This qualifies him to be called a child of God. Know that all these things happen inside the person (spiritually). The person now goes for water baptism to demostrate outwardly that which has happened inwardly. Remember that the 'spiritual' preceeds the 'physical'. So it is not at the point of baptism (physically) that one becoimes saved, but when one repents, and believes in Jesus Christ (spiritually).

Peter was right in what he said. To Peter, he understood what he had said, but to me, his words were not correlative. The word 'repent' has taken care of remission of sins and not baptism. He must have said a lot of words to PERSUADE them to believe (vs 40).

The same Peter before the incident quoted Joel in Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED. And after the incident Peter also said in Acts 3:19 REPENT therefore and be CONVERTED, that your sins may be BLOTTED OUT (taken away, wiped away), so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. Here Peter did not mention baptism before one's sins are wiped away or before one is saved.

So I will not say that Peter was wrong b/c only Peter understood the words he tried to use to persuade the people. . When we read it literally, it won't give us proper understanding and as such contradicts other scriptural passages. This is why we balance it with other passages in the Scriptures. No two scriptures contradict themselves. Rather all scriptures explain one another. Any misinterpretation is from the inability of humans to strike a balance b/w one passage and another.

esere826:
fair enough. I'll work with your belief. Now back to your verses which were:

(1)Act22:16 And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.’

(2) "Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38)

Looking at both verses it seems to indicate a process
baptise>> sins washed away >> then Holy Spirit gift received

I guess we all agree with this process. the challenge we all have is agreeing to what constitutes baptism

the original tradition seemed to indicate that water baptism was done inside water. I'm sure you and I both agree with this
Baptists and those after them believe that water baptism involves being dipped into water, while Catholics and some others believe that sprinkling of water over the head will suffice.

Now, let's push this further but carefully
when in a desert, with a bottle of water
- The Catholic approach suggests that a person can be baptised
- the Baptist approach suggests that a person cannot be baptized

when in a desert, with no water
- The Catholic approach suggests that a person cannot be baptised
- the Baptist approach suggests that a person cannot be baptized

Now, if for any reason it is true that water baptism is the start of the process for the remission of sin
then, he who is stuck in the desert and wants Jesus is on his own.... abi, is saliva also accepted in place of water?


After you've spared some thought on this, and given your view, I might push it further to shed some light on water baptism

italo expects the Eskimo in Russia Siberia or Alaska Arctic to perform water baptism
He expects the Arab in Sahara Desert or Kalahari Desert to perform water baptism

John 4:23-24
²³But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth.
The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way.
²⁴For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.”

Ritual washings with physical or literal water is having old-fashioned values or sticking to old ways, Law
Baptism with the Holy Spirit and Fire is having stronger or powerful values, switching to new ways, Grace

esere826:
@italo

I just now read an earlier post you wrote which answers the question I raised above^^
I don't completely agree with you, but accept that you are have the rights to your beliefs
My belief is that at the point you accept Jesus, you are given a new life (baptised into Christ)
I believe that acceptance is primarily in the heart, but is commonly intertwined with various kinds of physical demonstrations such as

(1) water baptism (whether by immersion or sprinkling),
(2) confession with your mouth or
(3) other symbolisms (for example, if one is dumb, muttering or shedding tears might be that conscious acceptance link into the new birth)

I earlier alluded to similar with the below repost

Water baptism is a shadow of the real deal,

It is less powerful than the real baptism of the Holy Ghost and Fire.

Like tithing, it is past its "best before" date but people still use tithing as well as water baptism for sentimental or ignorance reason.

God has no problem with both, as that's the level such presently are.

Am more concerned with people such as kei144 trying to twist John 3:5 has having to do with physical or literal water baptism, which obviously it doesn't.
https://www.nairaland.com/2383797/saved-faith-baptism/1#34854769

MuttleyLaff:
God is not a respecter of persons
Anybody regardless of sex, age or gender can be baptized with the Holy Spirit and Fire

Acts 2:17
In the last days,' God says,
'I will pour out my Spirit upon all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy.
Your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams

Water baptism is for ONLY those-child or adult- who acknowledges that he is a sinner, repents from his sins and believes in Jesus Christ. it a PERSONAL decision that one takes for himself and not by parents or friends or relatives.
When I say 'child' I mean those that can discern good and evil. Children also believe and accept Jesus at their tender ages so long as they understand what 'repentance' and 'forsaking of sins' are all about.

The 'all people' you quoted in Joel talks about 'all believers' in Christ. Those who have not believed in Christ do not have God's Spirit in them, so they are exempted from the words 'all people.' Yet God's Spirit has come to the world and will live in anyone who believes in Jesus.

Barnabaseloka:
Water baptism is for ONLY those-child or adult- who acknowledges that he is a sinner, repents from his sins and believes in Jesus Christ. it a PERSONAL decision that one takes for himself and not by parents or friends or relatives.
When I say 'child' I mean those that can discern good and evil.
Children also believe and accept Jesus at their tender ages so long as they understand what 'repentance' and 'forsaking of sins' are all about.

The 'all people' you quoted in Joel talks about 'all believers' in Christ.
Those who have not believed in Christ do not have God's Spirit in them, so they are exempted from the words 'all people.'

Why are you taking panasharp for another man's toothache?
This post which you replied to, wasnt for you but was for italo after he asked, saying:
@ Muttleylaff and scholar8200,
Can a child be baptized with the Holy Spirit and Fire?

Barnabaseloka, people get immersed (i.e. baptised) with different and all sort of things
People often get immersed in books at exam times
People immerse themselves in one pastime or the other like history of World War I etc
Likewise God can immerse (i.e. baptise) anyone, as in child, adult or old fogies with the Holy Spirit and Fire

Barnabaseloka, baptism is not an exclusive use only for water baptism, baptism (i.e. immersion) is used for other contexts.

You do know what the Holy Spirit and Fire does?
You do know what anointing is and the essense of anointing?

Jeremiah was consecrated and appointed to be a prophet to the nations before he was born
John the Baptist was filled (i.e. immersed) with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother's womb.
Mary was believed to be between 12-14 years when she was impregnated with Jesus
David was believed to be between 12-16 years when anointed for kingship

Joel's prophecy repeated in Acts 2:17 was deliberately provided to italo

italo:


Paul already believed, yet he had to be baptized for his sins to be washed away.

It's in Acts 22:16.

Was he saved when his sins were not yet washed away?

still trying my best to conform within your line of argument
then my rough answer would be yes,
he was 'saved' twice or rather washed from sin twice
1st when he believed and 2nd when he was baptised
remember that this closely tallies with your explanation that after believe, if there is no oppurtunity for water baptism, then God accepts you until such a time water is available.
I would then extend it to mean that once water is available for baptism, your sins come back patiently waiting to be washed away a second time


however, if I am to approach it from my own belief system, I have two theories,
one which I'd explain like this:

Paul believed that Jesus was indeed Christ after his Saulish encounter .. no sin was washed here
Ananias then lead him to accept Christ as his master
this acceptance was baptism into Christ which Paul outwardly demonstrated or connected to by being baptised in water and calling on Christ to be his master
it was the acceptance of Christ's lordship that washed away his sins and made him whole
it so happened that the baptism by water happened almost same time as Paul's acceptance of Christ's lordship hence it appears to be that the water is what washed away his sins

I think this also confused Peter, because he had always thought that water baptism was the only sign of acceptance
so when he was preaching to the gentiles and they believed, accepted Christ and the Holy Spirit descended on them with them barely saying anything
he was awe struck and just went ahead to baptise them without other rituals which he might have requested they perform before baptism

MuttleyLaff:
I earlier alluded to similar with the below repost

Water baptism is a shadow of the real deal,

It is less powerful than the real baptism of the Holy Ghost and Fire.

Like tithing, it is past its "best before" date but people still use tithing as well as water baptism for sentimental or ignorance reason.

God has no problem with both, as that's the level such presently are.
...

i think i agree with you in all of these

MuttleyLaff:
Why are you taking panasharp for another man's toothache?
This post which replied to, wasnt for you but was for italo after he asked, saying:
@ Muttleylaff and scholar8200,
Can a child be baptized with the Holy Spirit and Fire?

Barnabaseloka, people get immersed (i.e. baptised) with different and all sort of things
People often get immersed in books at exam times
People immerse themselves in one pastime or the other like history of World War I etc
Likewise God can immerse (i.e. baptise) anyone, as in child, adult or old fogies with the Holy Spirit and Fire

Barnabaseloka, baptism is not an exclusive use only for water baptism, baptism (i.e. immersion) is used for other contexts.

You do know what the Holy Spirit and Fire does?
You do know what anointing is and the essense of anointing?

Jeremiah was consecrated and appointed to be a prophet to the nations before he was born
John the Baptist was filled (i.e. immersed) with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother's womb.
Mary was believed to be between 12-14 years when she was impregnated with Jesus
David was believed to be between 12-16 years when anointed for kingship

Joel's prophecy repeated in Acts 2:17 was deliberately provided to italo

Forgive me for bro. I was only trying to explain what Joel meant in his prophecy b/c of what you wrote. I am deeply sorry for the offence committed.

italo:


Baptism is the ordinary way to enter the Christian life. However, if a person cannot be baptized, through no fault of theirs, God can still accept them into this life.

.
.

Are you saying all who never heard of Jesus before they died but did good according to the dictates of their conscience shall go to hell?

Fortunately for me, I am not a hell doctrine expert
at least not yet, so I cant answer this

Similarly, I ask you who say that we are saved by faith and baptism of the spirit...

I'm gonna deviate a little into a wider concept

I'll first say this, I have gently tried to encourage Olaadegbu and Frosbel who happen to be bible scholars to help research and bring to the fore discussion on what SAVE meant during bible times and the early days of the church .not what we presently understand it as which is being saved from hell.

By present beliefs on the concept of SAVE suggests that folks who never heard of Christ whether they did good or not might have been saved at one point or another. This is of course outside the concept of the doctrine of hell which I know little about.

I believe that when Adam would have used the word SAVE, he probably wasnt thinking of hell
I also believe that when many in the old testament times talked about save, they had something else in mind

Barnabaseloka:
Forgive me for bro.
I was only trying to explain what Joel meant in his prophecy b/c of what you wrote. I am deeply sorry for the offence committed.

What exactly did I write, that made you jump in both feet first.

esere826:
Fortunately for me, I am not a hell doctrine expert
at least not yet, so I cant answer this

I'm gonna deviate a little into a wider concept

I'll first say this, I have gently tried to encourage Olaadegbu and Frosbel who happen to be bible scholars to help research and bring to the fore discussion on what SAVE meant during bible times and the early days of the church .not what we presently understand it as which is being saved from hell.

By present beliefs on the concept of SAVE suggests that folks who never heard of Christ whether they did good or not might have been saved at one point or another. This is of course outside the concept of the doctrine of hell which I know little about.

I believe that when Adam would have used the word SAVE, he probably wasnt thinking of hell
I also believe that when many in the old testament times talked about save, they had something else in mind

Everyone whether they like it or not, ends up in Sheol
Note I deliberately sidestepped and didnt use hell
Inquiring minds would want to know which part of Sheol they'll end up at

Barnabaseloka:

There is no one who has believed that will not want to go through water baptism. Some of them might not have understood its significance. When they do, they will surely go for it.

You are not God that knows what every believer does. Stop assuming.

Barnabaseloka:

Those that BELIEVED but were NOT BAPTIZED:
Acts 2:47 praising God and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were SAVED.
Acts 4:4 However, many of those who heard the word BELIEVED; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.
Acts 5:14 And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women.
Acts 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number BELIEVED and turned to the Lord.
Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life BELIEVED.
Acts 14:1 Now it happened in Iconium that they went together to the synagogue of the Jews, and so spoke that a great multitude both of the Jews and of the Greeks BELIEVED.
Acts 17:4 And some of them were persuaded, and a great multitude of the devout Greeks, and not a few of the leading women, JOINED Paul and Silas.
12. Therefore many of them BELIEVED, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as the men.
34. However, some men joined him and BELIEVED, among them Dionysius, the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them. And so on.

The bible never said those people did not get baptized. You're assuming again.

Barnabaseloka:


Those that believed and were baptised:
Acts 2:41 Then those who gladly RECEIVED the word were BAPTIZED..
Acts 8:12-13
12. But when they BELIEVED Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were BAPTIZED.
13. Then Simon himself also BELIEVED; and when he was BAPTIZED, continued with PHILIP..
37.... And he answered and said, I BELIEVE that Jesus Christ is the Son of God
38. ..... And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he BAPTIZED him.
Acts 9:18.... And he arose and was BAPTIZED.
Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be BAPTIZED in the name of Lord... And so on.
Not everyone that BELIEVED was BAPTIZED.

Note: Rom.10:9 that If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you SHALL BE SAVED.

Then why did Ananias have to wash away Paul's sins with baptism?

Note: Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

Salvation is a process, not a one off. If you believe, but refuse baptism (due to your own fault), you are cutting yourself off. Believing is only a first step which must be followed by baptism for a person to be initiated into the Christian life. Afterwards, the Christian must continue to live according to Jesus' commands to be saved.

Barnabaseloka:


Those that died before jesus paid the price for the sins of the world will be judged by their conscience. But after His death and resurrection, God puts anyone right with Himself through his/her faith in Christ Jesus ONLY.

I see. So whom is St. Paul talking about in the verses below? Those who came after Christ or before Christ?

Rom2:14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

Nothing pains my heart more than when Christians try to spiritualise away the plain meaning of scripture. Scriptures say repent and be baptised for the remission of sins, right there in the new testament but somebody is saying baptism is an expired product. Comeone if you want to follow the bible follow it, if not just tell us you are repeated what your pastor told you so everybody can relax.

italo:


No need for epistles.

Acts 2:38 clearly says baptism is for remission of sin. Do you agree with that? Yes or no?

Acts 2:38 did not say such, you're the one saying it to mean WATER....there's no such as water there (if that's what you meant anyway). You are baptized IN or INTO Christ is what it is. Romans 6:3 & Galatians 3:27 explains that verse. There're no stand-alone scriptures my brother. Baptism occurred in various forms in scriptures but not sprinkling.

Ubenedictus:
Nothing pains my heart more than when Christians try to spiritualise away the plain meaning of scripture

Christians need to spiritualise because man is a spirit being
that is the destination we are heading to and end up at.

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth

Ubenedictus:
Scriptures say repent and be baptised for the remission of sins, right there in the new testament but somebody is saying baptism is an expired product. Comeone if you want to follow the bible follow it, if not just tell us you are repeated what your pastor told you so everybody can relax.

Man up and say specifically what the New Testament says what one is to be baptised with
Say what John the Baptist said He who is powerful and stronger than him will baptise us with

Also tell if its only water that immersion (i.e. baptism) is associated with

Also confirm if there is more than one Pastor than Jesus, our Pastor.
Show in the bible were there is pastor (i.e. pastor without a "s" extension as in not plural) is in the Bible

I am willing to be corrected but I am yet to know of any mainstream or local indigenious "pastor" who preaches or teaches against ritual water baptism, so you saying "repeated what your pastor told you so everybody can relax" is non sequitur.

MuttleyLaff:
God is not a respecter of persons
Anybody regardless of sex, age or gender can be baptized with the Holy Spirit and Fire

Acts 2:17
In the last days,' God says,
'I will pour out my Spirit upon all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy.
Your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams

If the Holy Spirit baptizes a two-year-old, for instance, is he saved?

MuttleyLaff:

There is no need for tithing but people still tithe dont they

They do. Are you confirming that there is no need for water baptism?

MuttleyLaff:


Of course Jesus mentioned "water" and "spirit" but tell us was the "water" literal immersion water.
In that verse, was it physical baptism water? Of course not, it isnt

It is.

MuttleyLaff:


Because whenever baptism is mentioned you automatically jump to conclusion and presume it is water baptism, when it actually isnt.

Ananias could not have administered baptism of the Holy Spirit. Neither could Peter and the other apostles. The only baptism they could administer was water baptism. Only God can determine when a person receives baptism of the Holy Spirit. So Acts 2:38 and 22:16 are talking about water baptism.

MuttleyLaff:


Ah-ha, there you are.
kei444 knows what am on about that is why he is shy of addressing what he wrote concerning John 3:5 which I confronted him about

I presented the same verse to you, in one of those six itemised quetions so that all could see but you too baulked off John 3:5

Now you're asking why, if you really want to know why and if you have any appreciation for Greek you might look up the Greek word "huetos" used for water in John 3:5 and tell all, what kind of water (i.e. baptism water or not) did Jesus mention in John 3:5?

Whilst at it, also inform all interested, what that water in John 3:5 symbolises

ὕδατος (hydatos), simply means water.

The same word is used in John 2:7.

The same word used in Mark 1:10 for the water Jesus was baptized in.

MuttleyLaff:
Are you really not familiar or conversant with allegories for the word of God and Spirit of God that refreshes and keeps one alive?
Was it a case of the eight immersed in water that saved them
Or was it a case of they immersed themselves in the the word of God and Spirit of God which saved them?

"Saved through water" is what 1Pet3:20 says...which prefigures baptism which now saves us (1Pet3:21) Both cases require belief in God.

Save through water obviously prefigured Water baptism.

Barnabaseloka:

I am not averting your questions. I have to lay foundation first so that my answers will not be contradictory to the scriptures.
Baptism entails repentance in the sense that one must 'repent' before one is 'baptized'. At the point of repentance, the person becomes washed with the blood of Jesus and becomes a new person. This qualifies him to be called a child of God. Know that all these things happen inside the person (spiritually). The person now goes for water baptism to demostrate outwardly that which has happened inwardly. Remember that the 'spiritual' preceeds the 'physical'. So it is not at the point of baptism (physically) that one becoimes saved, but when one repents, and believes in Jesus Christ (spiritually).

Peter was right in what he said. To Peter, he understood what he had said, but to me, his words were not correlative. The word 'repent' has taken care of remission of sins and not baptism. He must have said a lot of words to PERSUADE them to believe (vs 40).

The same Peter before the incident quoted Joel in Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED. And after the incident Peter also said in Acts 3:19 REPENT therefore and be CONVERTED, that your sins may be BLOTTED OUT (taken away, wiped away), so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. Here Peter did not mention baptism before one's sins are wiped away or before one is saved.

So I will not say that Peter was wrong b/c only Peter understood the words he tried to use to persuade the people. . When we read it literally, it won't give us proper understanding and as such contradicts other scriptural passages. This is why we balance it with other passages in the Scriptures. No two scriptures contradict themselves. Rather all scriptures explain one another. Any misinterpretation is from the inability of humans to strike a balance b/w one passage and another.

So baptism is not for the remission of sin?

It is just for outward show?

Peter didn't say it the right way?

What about Mark 16:16? Mark also wrote it the wrong way?

What about Ananias asking Paul to be baptized and wash his sins away?

Did the author, Luke write it the wrong way too?

In short, all authors that prove you wrong must have written the verses the wrong way.

Ubenedictus, Muttleylaff, Esere826, Goshen360,

Do you also believe this rubbish above?