italo:


So baptism is not for the remission of sin?

It is just for outward show?

MuttleyLaff:
italo expects the Eskimo in Russia Siberia or Alaska Arctic to perform water baptism
He expects the Arab in Sahara Desert or Kalahari Desert to perform water baptism

John 4:23-24
²³But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth.
The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way.
²⁴For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.”

Ritual washings with physical or literal water is having old-fashioned values or sticking to old ways, Law
Baptism with the Holy Spirit and Fire is having stronger or powerful values, switching to new ways, Grace

Barnabaseloka:

Water baptism is for ONLY those-child or adult- who acknowledges that he is a sinner, repents from his sins and believes in Jesus Christ. it a PERSONAL decision that one takes for himself and not by parents or friends or relatives.
When I say 'child' I mean those that can discern good and evil. Children also believe and accept Jesus at their tender ages so long as they understand what 'repentance' and 'forsaking of sins' are all about.

The 'all people' you quoted in Joel talks about 'all believers' in Christ. Those who have not believed in Christ do not have God's Spirit in them, so they are exempted from the words 'all people.' Yet God's Spirit has come to the world and will live in anyone who believes in Jesus.

esere826:

still trying my best to conform within your line of argument
then my rough answer would be yes,
he was 'saved' twice or rather washed from sin twice
1st when he believed and 2nd when he was baptised
remember that this closely tallies with your explanation that after believe, if there is no oppurtunity for water baptism, then God accepts you until such a time water is available.
I would then extend it to mean that once water is available for baptism, your sins come back patiently waiting to be washed away a second time


however, if I am to approach it from my own belief system, I have two theories,
one which I'd explain like this:

Paul believed that Jesus was indeed Christ after his Saulish encounter .. no sin was washed here
Ananias then lead him to accept Christ as his master
this acceptance was baptism into Christ which Paul outwardly demonstrated or connected to by being baptised in water and calling on Christ to be his master
it was the acceptance of Christ's lordship that washed away his sins and made him whole
it so happened that the baptism by water happened almost same time as Paul's acceptance of Christ's lordship hence it appears to be that the water is what washed away his sins

I think this also confused Peter, because he had always thought that water baptism was the only sign of acceptance
so when he was preaching to the gentiles and they believed, accepted Christ and the Holy Spirit descended on them with them barely saying anything
he was awe struck and just went ahead to baptise them without other rituals which he might have requested they perform before baptism

esere826:


.
.

Fortunately for me, I am not a hell doctrine expert
at least not yet, so I cant answer this

I'm gonna deviate a little into a wider concept

I'll first say this, I have gently tried to encourage Olaadegbu and Frosbel who happen to be bible scholars to help research and bring to the fore discussion on what SAVE meant during bible times and the early days of the church .not what we presently understand it as which is being saved from hell.

By present beliefs on the concept of SAVE suggests that folks who never heard of Christ whether they did good or not might have been saved at one point or another. This is of course outside the concept of the doctrine of hell which I know little about.

I believe that when Adam would have used the word SAVE, he probably wasnt thinking of hell
I also believe that when many in the old testament times talked about save, they had something else in mind

Goshen360:


Acts 2:38 did not say such, you're the one saying it to mean WATER....there's no such as water there (if that's what you meant anyway). You are baptized IN or INTO Christ is what it is. Romans 6:3 & Galatians 3:27 explains that verse. There're no stand-alone scriptures my brother. Baptism occurred in various forms in scriptures but not sprinkling.

Goshen360:


Did Peter that said Acts 2:38 baptize (in water) BEFORE his sins were remitted\forgiven?

italo:


So the Baptism Peter talked about in Acts 2:38 was not for remission of sins?

The baptism in 1Pet3:21 doesn't save? Or it wasn't water baptism?

italo:

1. You are not God that knows what every believer does. Stop assuming.

2. The bible never said those people did not get baptized. You're assuming again.



3. Then why did Ananias have to wash away Paul's sins with baptism?

Note: Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

4. Mark16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

Salvation is a process, not a one off. If you believe, but refuse baptism (due to your own fault), you are cutting yourself off. Believing is only a first step which must be followed by baptism for a person to be initiated into the Christian life. Afterwards, the Christian must continue to live according to Jesus' commands to be saved.

5 I see. So whom is St. Paul talking about in the verses below? Those who came after Christ or before Christ?

Rom2:14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

MuttleyLaff:
What exactly did I write, that made you jump in both feet first.

italo:
The moral of the above story is: no answer to my question.

If you know so little then I think you should be learning not teaching.

italo:


So baptism is not for the remission of sin?

It is just for outward show?

Peter didn't say it the right way?

What about Mark 16:16? Mark also wrote it the wrong way?

What about Ananias asking Paul to be baptized and wash his sins away?

Did the author, Luke write it the wrong way too?

In short, all authors that prove you wrong must have written the verses the wrong way.

Ubenedictus, Muttleylaff, Esere826, Goshen360,

Do you also believe this rubbish above?

Barnabaseloka:

Yes baptism is not for the remission of sins. 'Repent' and 'believe' have taken care of the remission of sins. God has already forgiven one's sins and washed one with the blood of Jesus before one goes for baptism. At the point of believing In Jesus, God transforms one into a new creation. This happen inwardly, while baptism physically or visibly shows what took place inwardly in one's life.

Ananias did not say that it was baptism that would wash away Paul's sins. You quoted it halfway, thereby taking away its meaning.
Acts 22:16. And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord. This means that both the baptism and the washing of sins were done calling on the name of the Lord. It is not that baptism will wash away the sins of Paul.
This is the same as in Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass That whoever CALLS on the NAME of the Lord shall be SAVED.
Rom.10:13 For whoever CALLS on the NAME of the Lord shall be SAVED.

Peter said these words in no particular order, yet he understood what he meant. But I said that to me, his words were not correlative with what he said before and after. Peter's heartbeat was for men to believe in Christ and not necessarily how he put these words.

Did Peter say it the right way and were his words correlative with what he said before and after?
He said this before that in Acts 2:38:
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
And he said this afterwards:
Acts 3:19 REPENT therefore and be CONVERTED, that your sins may be BLOOTED OUT...

Finally, Acts 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized... This shows that they believed before they were baptized. And I said that believing entails one's sins being blotted out or washed away, before baptism which visibly shows what has happened inwardly .

esere826:


We never know it all my dear friend
we know a lot in somethings and little in others
I teach what I know (or believe I know), and learn what I know little about

esere826:

the challenge a number of folks have is that they think they know but actually know nothing
and with such haphazard knowledge being masqueraded as the full bouquet of knowledge
they end up thinking that arguments are a battle which they must win
and thus tend to speak authoritatively on issues they have sparsely meditated on

esere826:


If you being so knowledgeable on the things of hell as to be a teacher for all things
I decide to question you rigorously about hell, the way a typical atheist would
i doubt you'd give applaud-able answers

esere826:


In conclusion
.... I think you should be open to learning and not throwing yourself forth as a teacher who has gained infallible mastership

esere826:


** I thought to also add that someone 'not being an expert' in something doesn't neccesarily translate to the person 'knowing so little'
Interstingly, I do know all the teachings about hell within the concept of christianity (probably more than you do), however, it's not something that I have spent time meditating on, neither am I keen to discuss my meditations so far within such a maze as the present thread ****

brocab:
Can water baptism wash away ones sin?

The concept of Baptism washing away sin stems from Acts 22:16-Arise and be baptised, and wash away your sin, calling on His name. Does this mean you can wash away your sins through baptism?

Romans 6:2-7-We died to sin, How can we live into it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into His death.
Colossians 2:12-We were therefore buried with Him through baptism in order, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."
Mark 16:16-17-Whoever believes and is baptised shall be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Baptism represents a decision to believe in Jesus as our saviour, through baptism we publicly demonstrate that we believe in our salvation obtained through Jesus, who died for us and rose again in three days.
Similarly we symbolically indicate that by accepting Jesus in our lives, we are experiencing a rebirth, our old self had died, we are a new creation through Jesus Christ.
Jesus made this clear when discussing the importance of baptism with Nicodemus John 3:3-8- I tell you the truth, no-one can see the kingdom of God unless one is born again!
It is clear the the baptism doesn't wash away sin, but it is an outward declaration that we want to live with Jesus who is the only one who can forgive sins.
It cannot be intended that the external rite of baptism was sufficient to make you pure", but that it was a ordinance appointed by Jesus as a public expression of the washing of sin, or the purification of the heart.

Matthew 3:13-15-Jesus showing us a good example, the importance He Himself was baptised, receiving the Holy Spirit-that very same way we through baptism, also receive the Holy Spirit.

italo:


Learn then, that water Baptism is the door to Christian life. It is what the Church has taught for 2000 years.

Don't try to teach me that water baptism is useless. It is a teaching that is alien to Christianity.

Read what the early church fathers said about baptism.


That is the reason I ask a lot of questions when I meet someone who purports to know, as I have been doing. Let me ask, have you prayed about this issue of the relevance of Baptism? What did the Lord tell you?



I will give the answers that have been revealed to the Church. End of Story. All my knowledge is from the Catholic Church that has the spiritual authority to teach God's people. The same authority and with which they compiled the Bible in the fourth century.



I am open to learning christian doctrine from God's infallible Church. However, the early Church warned us to flee from false teachers bringing new doctrines like "water baptism is expired."



Anyway, you have a good point. No one knows it all...and it is better to say I don't know than to be contradicting the Bible like you guys are doing with Acts2:38. Just look at how Barnabaseloka is virtually trying to rewrite the Bible to fit in with this heresy.

My advice to you is to learn from God's Church. The early Christians didn't interpret scriptures privately, they didn't even have a Bible. They learnt from the Church. That Church is still existing today. It is the Catholic Church.

It is pride that makes you think you know more than the Church.

italo:
start by tearing away Acts 2:38 and John 3:5 from your Bible...or rewriting them like Barnabaseloka. he said they 'weren't written well.'

italo:


.......I will give the answers that have been revealed to the Church. End of Story. All my knowledge is from the Catholic Church that has the spiritual authority to teach God's people. The same authority and with which they compiled the Bible in the fourth century........

.......I am open to learning christian doctrine from God's infallible Church. However, the early Church warned us to flee from false teachers bringing new doctrines like "water baptism is expired."......

italo:


Learn then, that water Baptism is the door to Christian life. It is what the Church has taught for 2000 years.

Don't try to teach me that water baptism is useless. It is a teaching that is alien to Christianity.

Read what the early church fathers said about baptism.


That is the reason I ask a lot of questions when I meet someone who purports to know, as I have been doing. Let me ask, have you prayed about this issue of the relevance of Baptism? What did the Lord tell you?



I will give the answers that have been revealed to the Church. End of Story. All my knowledge is from the Catholic Church that has the spiritual authority to teach God's people. The same authority and with which they compiled the Bible in the fourth century.



I am open to learning christian doctrine from God's infallible Church. However, the early Church warned us to flee from false teachers bringing new doctrines like "water baptism is expired."



Anyway, you have a good point. No one knows it all...and it is better to say I don't know than to be contradicting the Bible like you guys are doing with Acts2:38. Just look at how Barnabaseloka is virtually trying to rewrite the Bible to fit in with this heresy.

My advice to you is to learn from God's Church. The early Christians didn't interpret scriptures privately, they didn't even have a Bible. They learnt from the Church. That Church is still existing today. It is the Catholic Church.

It is pride that makes you think you know more than the Church.

brocab:
As we all know many millions of Catholic's believe in baby baptism-many haven't reached the true baptism of Christ.

John 3:3-5- Jesus said to him "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mothers womb and be born?"
Jesus answered, Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Jesus had said clearly' one must make a choice.

But it seems you Catholic's have a different idea about baptism, none have made a choice, instead you have allowed your parents, to make that choice for you. You all seem to believe your parents made the right decision's, baptising you into the Catholic Church from birth.

So your baptism and the scriptures baptism are totally different.

John 3:3-5-John 3:16-Jesus said: one must believe? And be born again before he can enter the kingdom of heaven.

esere826:

aha

If you've decided that your only source of learning is your church. that's fine
Our arguments or discussions then feels almost like a woman dating a man who they both know will never be hers -fruitless

and its also like I would typically say to some MOG indoctrinated fellas here who strongly defend biblical positions their pastors have taken
I'd rather discuss with their knowledge sources -their MOGs

finally,
Yo know that Jeremiah the prophet once invited the children of Jonadab to drink in the house of God as instructed by God
they came, but refused to drink. They said that Jonadab their father had instructed them on how to live, and will keep to it.
Interestingly, God blessed them for such commitment and rebuked Judah for the recalcitrant behaviour.

...I consequently believe that you have blessings for being commited to your own christian tradition

brocab:
It wasn't the Church where the the early Christians received their knowledge about Christ, they received their knowledge from the Holy Spirit, after they became born again.
John 14:16-17-"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another helper, that he may be with you forever, that the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him, but you know Him because He dwells with you, and will be in you.

In the early days the Christians didn't need the Catholic Church to teach them anything-plus the early Church didn't know anything' to even teach the Christians about Christ.

The Lord said he will send His helper to teach you all things, He didn't say the Church will teach you all things.

Ubenedictus:
someone just implied that the new testament teaching on baptism was done with incomplete knowledge. the holyspirit has given us scripture with incomplete newtestament knowledge. italo did u see that.

MuttleyLaff:
cc OLAADEGBU, Scholar8200, Ubenedictus, Kei844, Esere826, Goshen360, italo, Barnabaseloka

How long is a water baptism piece of string?
Where or when is the water baptism line drawn?

italo:
You tried to tell me that the "water" in John 3:5 was not literal water, citing the original Greek word used. I showed you that the original Greek word "hydatos" was the same one used for literal water at Jesus' baptism Mark 1:10 And the literal water that was changed to wine (John 2:7).

That's how you abandoned the Bible-based discussion and resorted to cartoons drawn by heretics like you.

italo:

If a child dies at the age of two, will he go to heaven or hell?

Barnabaseloka:

Go back and read what I posted carefully to get the answer.

MuttleyLaff:
Cardinal, I didnt want to prolong a situation where someone is set in their thinking or ways, and have their heels dug in.

I have always maintained that:
#1 Baptisms is about immersion but it is not an exclusive use for water baptism alone (i.e. people get immersed in a countless of other things)
#2 We get baptised or immersed to make holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God’s word.
#3 Water is often used as an allegory or symbolism for God's word, which is through which all are saved

Dont know why you go down the heretic route, as I havent objected to water baptism
Have only and always maintained that it is not necessary and the ritual shouldnt be forced
We now live in the spirit and grace dispensation
but if anyone wants to live the hard and old way, they are free to,
only do not like the Pharisees lay burdens on others, do not keep bound others, who ought to be set free

Finally, a picture speaks a thousand words.
Cartoons are worth thousand words, they are capable of telling stories and making points just as well as large amount of posted text

italo:
You tried to tell me that the "water" in John 3:5 was not literal water, citing the original Greek word used.
I showed you that the original Greek word "hydatos" was the same one used for literal water at Jesus' baptism Mark 1:10 And the literal water that was changed to wine (John 2:7).

That's how you abandoned the Bible-based discussion and resorted to cartoons drawn by heretics like you.