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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? (26535 Views)
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Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Barnabaseloka(m): 9:14am On Jun 18, 2015 |
italo:Go and read all these posts you referred to and you will understand what I have written. You are the one that said that what the apostles wrote were wrongly written. I never said so. I learn from others and balance what I hear or say with other passages of the scriptures. Anyone who has read my posts will easily understand it. But you have taken it upon yourself not to undestand them, but to make quick conclusions that you know contradict other passages of the scriptures. You failed to write expressely what happens to a person when he repents and believes in Christ Jesus, before baptism. What about those who received the Holy Spirit before water baptism- were they not saved? Will the Holy Spirit live inside one whose sins have not been washed away or remitted? Learn from others but compare scripture with scripture to balance your understanding. People will keep living in error if they pick one or two passages that might not have correlated with other passages and interpret them as they are. This is why we need balancing them for proper understanding. 1 Like |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by MuttleyLaff: 9:28am On Jun 18, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka:You dey mind am, right now am now just looking and laughing It such that say you need to come to them for a direct physical ritual touch before you can get your healing Various symbols in the Bible are used to represent the word of God and/or the Holy Spirit Water (e.g. "hydatos", "huetos" etc) as a figure of the Holy Spiritand word of God both in terms of its cleansing properties and as a source of power is one example but italo et al wont have none of that so very soon expect italo to say the same "hydatos" in John 7:38 is physical or literal water John 7:38 Anyone who believes in me may come and drink! For the Scriptures declare, 'Rivers of living water will flow from his heart.'" 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Barnabaseloka(m): 9:33am On Jun 18, 2015 |
italo:Your problem on this issue is that you do not understand those who believe what you do not believe. You hold on to one or two passages and jump into conclusions with them. When someone brings other passages that speak on the same issue, you will not agree but hold on to yours. If a passage says a thing and another passage seem not to have been written in the same way, how do you resolve that? You resolve it by checking other scriptural passages on that issue for better understanding and not to teach or live in error. Go and read what I wrote on my conclusion in the thread about 'Mary being the mother of God' and you will understand me. Be open to learn from others but compare scripture with scripture to get a balanced understanding of a topic. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Barnabaseloka(m): 9:44am On Jun 18, 2015 |
italo:Not every of your questions is meant to be answered. You do not want to learn from or understand others who do not go with your reasoning on this issue. You ask quesions to find faults in answers given and not to understand the answers first. I said only a child who can discern good and evil and UNDERSTAND what repentance, forgiveness of sins and believing in Jesus are all about. Now ask yourself if a two-year old child is involved with the above post or not. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 10:22am On Jun 18, 2015 |
MuttleyLaff: "Hydatos" is always water. Show me one place that hydatos was translated as Holy Spirit or Word? You mean Jesus was saying "except a man is born of hydatos-spirit and spirit...?" That's another rubbish! |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 10:26am On Jun 18, 2015 |
U Barnabaseloka: Bros, leave me alone. You said the apostles wrote wrongly... How can we have a discussion on wrongly written scriptures? |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by hahn(m): 10:36am On Jun 18, 2015 |
italo: Lol I'm really enjoying this discussion I wonder why god decided to inspire a book that contrdicts itself such much that its readers are unable to agree. The incompetence of god becomes more and more glaring with each comment made on this thread 1 Like |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 10:40am On Jun 18, 2015 |
hahn:The day your child misunderstands or chooses to misconstrue you word, you'd be an incompetent father? Think! |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 10:42am On Jun 18, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka: Stop lying. I have said several times that I believe all the verses are true. You are the one who believes some verses were wrongly written. That Peter said 'baptism is for remission of sin,' but he really meant 'baptism is NOT for the remission of sin.' You said it was Jesus time in John 2, Jesus said his time hadn't come. You said Mary's motherhood ended when he started preaching, the Bible called Mary his mother at the foot of the cross. You said all who lived after Jesus would be judged by their faith in him, the Bible says the gentiles will be judged by their conscience. You have told too many lies against the scriptures. ...and without remorse. 3 Likes |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Kei144(m): 11:03am On Jun 18, 2015 |
The Making of a Covenant Ge. 15:5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the heavens and count the stars — if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” Ge. 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. Ge. 15:7 He also said to him, “I am the LORD, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to take possession of it.” Ge. 15:8 But Abram said, “O Sovereign LORD, how can I know that I shall gain possession of it?” Ge. 15:9 So the LORD said to him, “Bring me a heifer, a goat and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and a young pigeon.” Ge. 15:10 Abram brought all these to him, cut them in two and arranged the halves opposite each other; the birds, however, he did not cut in half. Ge. 15:11 Then birds of prey came down on the carcasses, but Abram drove them away. Ge. 15:12 As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. Ge. 15:13 Then the LORD said to him, “Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and ill-treated four hundred years. Ge. 15:14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterwards they will come out with great possessions. Ge. 15:15 You, however, will go to your fathers in peace and be buried at a good old age. Ge. 15:16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.” Ge. 15:17 When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, a smoking brazier with a blazing torch appeared and passed between the pieces. Ge. 15:18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the river [Or Wadi] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates — Ge. 15:19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Ge. 15:20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Ge. 15:21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.” Abraham believed the word of God and it was counted to him as righteousness. Because of this righteousness by faith, God entered into a covenant with Abraham. The making of this covenant between God and Abraham involved a physical ceremony. God participated in the ceremony when Abraham finished his own side of the ceremony. What if Abraham had decided that the physical ceremony was unnecessary, after all he already believed God and God counted it for him as righteousness? would there have been any covenant? Without the covenant, what would have been the fate of Abraham? Mk. 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Mk. 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. If any person believes the good news, God counts it to her/him as righteousness. The word of God carries the instruction that such a person should go through a physical ceremony of water baptism. Water baptism is a covenant ceremony between God and a person. Some people say that water baptism was a Jewish rite. Well, it is the rite for entering into covenant with the Jewish God. If you don't like it, the covenant between your ancestors and the gods of your place will remain binding on you. https://www.nairaland.com/2352063/enter-kingdom-god-now#34536725 |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Scholar8200(m): 11:45am On Jun 18, 2015 |
Romans 3:25 25 whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Revelations 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, He who believes and has been washed in the blood of the Lamb as indicated, can then, in obedience (like the Ethiopian Eunuch Acts 8,) be baptised in water. 1 Like |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Barnabaseloka(m): 11:57am On Jun 18, 2015 |
italo:Then post it here. You inferred that not me. I did not say that the apostles wrote anything wrongly! This was what you wanted me to say, but thank God I wisely did not. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by hahn(m): 12:03pm On Jun 18, 2015 |
italo: But I'm only a man. Why compare me to an all knowing, all seeing, creator of the universe? If I'm unable to explain my word to my son in a way that he would be able to totally understand what I mean then I'm also responsible for his mis understanding. If you have to use me, a mere creature, as an example to justify the creator's (in)actions then it only points out that the concept of the creator in the first place is a birthchild of the created(supposedly) |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Barnabaseloka(m): 12:11pm On Jun 18, 2015 |
hahn:Bro. this topic will best be discussed by those who believe in God and not in god. I can understand that you do not believe in God from your write-up. I stand to be corrected. Know it now that christians must not agree with one another on every issue. What makes us believers is our FAITH IN Christ Jesus. What are written in the Scriptures do not contradict, but explain one another. Only those who have believed in God and in Jesus Christ can farthom this. Understanding what is written in the scripture is by the Holy Spirit and not through human wisdom or philosophy. It is like a christian trying to argue with a moslem about the quaran. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Barnabaseloka(m): 12:15pm On Jun 18, 2015 |
italo:What about the other passages quoted that showed that repentance and believing on Jesus blot out the sins of man? |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by brocab: 12:40pm On Jun 18, 2015 |
And you think the Church is the Catholic Church, not the body which is the Church of Christ. Acts 15:22-24 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the hole Church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioh with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren. They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, and elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia Greetings. Vs 24-Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law' to whom we gave no commandment. The Pharisees were demanding the Gentiles to keep their law. But it was the Holy Spirit who gave the orders to the apostles, to free the Gentiles from that law. Vs 25- It seem good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Vs 28- For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay no greater burden than these necessary things; This shows it was the Holy Spirit who had the final say. Vs 29 That you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. This sounds to me the apostles were trying to keep these people away from the Roman Catholic Church. italo: 1 Like |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by hahn(m): 12:44pm On Jun 18, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka: I don't see how this is a justification of me not being able to contribute and learn. If you say the water in the kettle you're holding is hot and I say it isn't all you have to do is pour the "hot" water on my hands. If indeed the water is hot ill confirm it is but if it is not you don't expect me to agree with you just because you said it was hot in the beginning |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by brocab: 1:14pm On Jun 18, 2015 |
Yes when I was born, I was baptised by a priest, because my parents made a decision, as I grew, I started making choices' and later I made a choice to follow after Christ. And that choice I became a born again Christian, and baptised in the Holy Spirit.. Jesus as a baby was baptised into His Church, and later becoming a man after making that choice He was baptised by John the baptist. Receiving the Holy Spirit. When Jesus wrote: Matthew 19:14, let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them. These children were pretty much of that age to believe. Babies, haven't the slightest idea what's going on. And where in the bible talks about the baptism of infants-no-where. italo: 1 Like |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Barnabaseloka(m): 3:10pm On Jun 18, 2015 |
italo:Is this the extent at which you misunderstand and mix issues up? How does the issue discussed in another thread related to this topic. If you want us to discuss further on the issue of 'Mary being the mother of God' you know where to go. So do not try to circumvent the issue discussed here. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Barnabaseloka(m): 3:26pm On Jun 18, 2015 |
hahn:You are totally free to contribute and learn. I said that it would be BEST DISCUSSED by those who believe in God, unless you have believed in God and in Jesus. The reason for saying it is that this topic needs scriptural back-up as you have seen for yourself, not just only writing from human reasoning . If you do not lay hold on the scriptures to cement your point, how will you be understood here? Christians do not debate a topic based on human wisdom, philosophy and logic, but on the scriptures, through the help of the Holy Spirit. Yet, they can use what happens in the world to butress a point. Nevertheless, be free to contribute and learn! |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by hahn(m): 3:48pm On Jun 18, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka: Lol. I'm with y'all. However, what strikes me is the fact that christians are only concerned about being saved. The whole idea of "being saved" is the only foundation of the average christian's morality. And that's why you are all having this "debate". Faith or works? Will it be safe to say that a serial killer who believes in god(faith) will make heaven while a man who tries to treat everyone he encounters with love and fairness will go to hell just because he doesn't believe in god(works)? It would seem that being kind to your neighbour, showing love to strangers, desisting from looting of public funds(as in the case of our christian political leaders), respecting other people's views and opinions, being truthful, keeping to your word, having integrity and other good "works" would seem like a burden to people who feel more comfortable with just having "faith" just so they can "make heaven". Afterall, if all one has to have to make heaven is faith then why should one care about one's staff who is unable to add milk in his daughter's ogi? What's my business with my neighbour who hasn't eaten? Why should I care about what happens to the victims of boko haram who have lost their parents, siblings or loved ones, their homes, their investments? Doing that won't matter as long as all you need is to have "faith" Its pretty simple. I don't need to have "spiritual understanding" or cram the bible to be able to figure it out. Its common sense |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Barnabaseloka(m): 4:10pm On Jun 18, 2015 |
hahn:I indeed understand you. But know that christians need spiritual understanding to be able to explain the things written in the bible correctly. It is not all about craming what is written in it. Believing in Jesus Christ through 'faith' is a preliquisite for anyone to become a child of God (a believer). When one has now believed, then we talk of 'works' as you have written, but they are done through the help of the Holy Spirit. God sends the Holy Spirit into the life of anyone who believes in Christ Jesus to direct such a person. Faith and not 'works' brings one into Christ Jesus, while one needs 'works' to remain in Jesus if such a person wants to enter heaven at last. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Scholar8200(m): 4:52pm On Jun 18, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka:Indeed true faith reveals itself by Love. 1 Like |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Ubenedictus(m): 4:56pm On Jun 18, 2015 |
Scholar8200: you've gat it upside down, it is true that scriptures talk about the power of the blood of Christ, and you imagine that the said power is only applied when one believes. Scriptures actually says that d said power is applied when one repents, believe AND is baptised, even moreso at baptism. In that little ceremony and external rite scriptures teaches that God does an immense work of grace. My point is simple, in baptism there is actually a "figure" as someone pointed out already, but it is a figure of what God is accomplishing in the soul at baptism. Sorry it doesn't matter if we agree or not but scriptures rightly teach that in baptism God accoplishes in us the work of salvation, he unites us to his Son our source of grace, makes us partakers in his death, so our sins are washed away, the old man dies and the new man is inaugurated. You are free to disagree, but this is what my bible says Romans 5:3-14 Don't you know that in baptism which unites us to Christ we are all plunged and baptised into his death? 4by this baptism into his death we are buried with Christ and as Christ was raised from the dead to the glory of God the father so we begin walking in a new life i hope you continue to verse 14 and understand what paul teaches, because he clearly shows us how we have fellowship with the death of Christ he clearly teaches when tHe power of his death is applied to us and he says it is at baptism. It is there we are buried in Christ, it is there that we rise into the new life of the resurrection, it is there that was sinful self is crucified. His teachings are clear and shifting and dodging will not make those passages go away. You can continue highlighting how the blood of Jesus washes away sins, how his death is our peace and the sacrifice for our sins but I don't see how anyone can deny that scriptures say that it is in baptism that the full effect of the death of Jesus is applied to us. In baptism I die with Christ, in it i rise with him, in it my old self is crucified and I am brought back a new man, in it I am united to Christ. that is what the word of God says and for me that settles it. Have a faith fill day. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Ubenedictus(m): 5:12pm On Jun 18, 2015 |
Kei144: good parrallels. When scripture say the old testament foreshadowed the new, it spoke in truth. In the old we saw how God accepted people into the covenant, he simply gave them a rite, and on whosoever the said rite was performed was counted a member of the covenant, no wonder the apostle drew a parrallel betweem circumcision and baptism. Even now God still gave a rite by which his people are initiated into a new covenant and that is baptism, in it the scriptures teach that we are united to Christ, die with him, rise with him, e.t.c. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by MuttleyLaff: 8:15pm On Jun 18, 2015 |
italo:"Hydatos" is water and more italo:I am ahead of you. I have earlier provided and hinted you the place where hydatos was used as an allegory or figure for the word of God Look up https://www.nairaland.com/2383797/saved-faith-water-baptism/4#34885168 John 7:38 Anyone who believes in me may come and drink! For the Scriptures declare, 'Rivers of living water will flow from his heart.'" italo:You eventually are coming round to the truth Yes, Jesus said no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water (i.e. hydatos) and the Spirit. Hydatos is an allegro or symbol for the word of God Remember, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God? Without faith in the word of God, it's impossible to enter the kingdom of God italo:You post and print more genuine rubbish 1 Like |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Barnabaseloka(m): 9:05pm On Jun 18, 2015 |
MuttleyLaff:True bro. 1 Pet.1:23 Being BORN AGAIN not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, BY (through) the WORD of GOD which lives and abides forever. Anyone becomes BORN AGAIN by (through) the WORD of GOD he hears and believes, and by the Holy Spirit that comes into such life at the point of believing in Christ Jesus. So Jesus was not talking of physical water but of spiritual water (the word of God). 1 Like |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 9:28pm On Jun 18, 2015 |
brocab: Luke 18:15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Another lying protestant contradicting the Bible. ![]() |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 10:04pm On Jun 18, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka: Barnabaseloka: |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 10:09pm On Jun 18, 2015 |
hahn: What if you're able to explain in a way that he would totally understand but he chooses not to listen or understand? You'd be an incompetent father? |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by hahn(m): 10:29pm On Jun 18, 2015 |
italo: Yep. It would only mean that I have not been able to explain it properly. Still, why are you comparing me with an "almighty" god? |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Barnabaseloka(m): 10:49pm On Jun 18, 2015 |
italo:Thank you for showing the bolded but: 1. Did the bolded say that Peter was wrong in what he spoke as you claim that I wrote in my post? 2. Did you not read the words above it where I stated that Peter was right in what he said? 3. Did it bother you to read the remaining of the post to understand what I meant by Peter's words not being correlative? I was careful in what I wrote and did not fall into the trap you set for me. Up till now, you have not shown me where I wrote that Peter was wrong in what he said. I tell you again: Do not read someone's posts just to find errors and use them against the person, without carefully reading what he meant. Read and understand so that you can effectively correct any misconstruction or any error in one's posts. Again, have an open heart to learn from others and do not hold tenaciously to any passge/s that other passages can explain or balance. Know that some passages in the bible are: 1. Self-explanatory in that you understand them as you read directly from them, without contradicting any other passage. 2. Not self-explanatory in that it will require a background study, comparing one passage with another to get a balanced understanding of them. |
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