Lets read this together.
Luke 18:15- And they brought unto Him also infants, that He would touch them: But when His disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
Vs 16 Jesus called them to him and said: Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.

Of such is the kingdom of God.
You can see the children were brought to Jesus as an example, they either were to respond to the gospel as they grew older.
Or they believed as you believe in baptism at birth-like when Jesus laid his hands on them, you believe you are Automatically saved.

Vs 17 "Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it."
This verse say's it all, Jesus had showing us another example-we as adults need to humble ourselves as little children to be teachable, by our Father in Heaven.

Matthew 18:2-4, And Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them.
Vs 3, and said: "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of God.
Another example, converted to become as little children.
Vs 4, "Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

As you can see whoever humbles himself as a little child. And those who enter the kingdom of heaven have to believe, repent, be baptised and live a new life.
Peter at pentecost makes it clear that the promise was for that generation and their children, on the basis of repentance and baptism which could not be applied to their children until they were old enough to even understand.

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and let everyone of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remissions of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Babes haven't the slightest idea what sin is.
Vs 39-"For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are a far off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
So Peter said: all those who the Lord chooses, and so far it seems the Lord has chosen men, to become his disciples, men who have humbled themselves as children to believe in the gospel.

How about this scripture.
1 Corinthians 14:20-Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
Don't be angry, no-one is lying, we understand you haven't received to word of God clearly, but we are only here to help someone in need.

So you see, you believe as a child you were brought before the lord, baptised as a babe, which shows this does not save you, you need to make that final decision, a mature person would consider making a choice, turning him or herself over to the Lord in humbleness as a child, and becoming a born again Christian, only to follow after Christ, and learn about the scriptures.

We love ya brother..

italo:


Luke 18:15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.

16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Another lying protestant contradicting the Bible.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and
of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the
kingdom of God. Jn.3:5

I have read someone saying Jesus did not mean water, this is a strange teaching even to the understanding of the apostles. Or how else will someone explain the waters of the following baptism passages?

1. Water found on the way, in Acts 8: 36. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

2. Water still called for by peter even after their receiving the Holy Spirit, in Acts 10:47. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

3. Water associated with river, in Acts 16:13-15. And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted .... And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira...And when she was baptized, and her household....

4. Water used for washing, in Acts 16:46 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

And to think "Christians" did not rebuke him, but everyone was busy attacking Italo, who alone pointed this out is alarming. Or do you all agree it wasn't water in those passages too

Syncan:
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and
of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the
kingdom of God. Jn.3:5

I have read someone saying Jesus did not mean water, this is a strange teaching even to the understanding of the apostles. Or how else will someone explain the waters of the following baptism passages?

1. Water found on the way, in Acts 8: 36. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

2. Water still called for by peter even after their receiving the Holy Spirit, in Acts 10:47. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

3. Water associated with river, in Acts 16:13-15. And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted .... And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira...And when she was baptized, and her household....

4. Water used for washing, in Acts 16:46 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

And to think "Christians" did not rebuke him, but everyone was busy attacking Italo, who alone pointed this out is alarming. Or do you all agree it wasn't water in those passages too

Still baffles me how others just jump both feet in to this thread.
This has been a civil and mature back and forth so far, but someone thinks "everyone has been busy attacking Italo"

If pushed and continually shoved like this, I can blow wide open this water baptism thing
How were all those baptisms carried?
Were they full baptism as in full immersion in water or not?
How were each or individual water baptisms carried out by the Apostles done?
On the day of pentecost that 3000 were baptised, where, which place and how was this done?
Considering the time of day, how long did it take to baptise those 3000?

Jesus did not mean physical or literal water in John 3:5, just He did not mean the same "hydatos" in John 7:38 is not physical or literal water

John 7:38
Anyone who believes in me may come and drink!
For the Scriptures declare, 'Rivers of living water will flow from his heart.'"

MuttleyLaff:
Still baffles me how others just jump both feet in to this thread.
This has been a civil and mature back and forth so far, but someone thinks "everyone has been busy attacking Italo"

If pushed and continually shoved like this, I can blow wide open this water baptism thing
How were all those baptisms carried?
Were they full baptism as in full immersion in water?
Are were each or individual water baptisms carried out by the Apostles done?
On the day of pentecost that 300 were baptised, where, which place and how was this done?
Considering the time of day, how long did it take to baptise those 300?

Jesus did not mean physical or literal water in John 3:5, just He did not mean the same "hydatos" in John 7:38 is not physical or literal water

John 7:38
Anyone who believes in me may come and drink!
For the Scriptures declare, 'Rivers of living water will flow from his heart.'"

bla bla bla bla, Your rants does not solve any of you heresy. Before you blow yourself open, Pls what type of water are in those passages of baptism as posted by me?

Syncan:
bla bla bla bla, Your rants does not solve any of you heresy.
Before you blow yourself open, Pls what type of water are in those passages of baptism as posted by me?

Excuse my language
but you've probably guessed that I dont give a Foxtrot-Uniform-Charlie-Kilo about what type of water are in those passages,
as my stance on water baptism is no secret.
Do it, if you're compelled or feel the need to
but if you dont, please do not lose sleep over it. It isnt a do-or-die fanaticism

I just love it when people pull out the heresy card and play it
Something must have rattled and got them fidgety to do that

Nota bene, I am very particular and more concerned about John 3:5 and John 7:8
Do you agree both verses havev nothing whatsoever to dfo with physical or literal water

MuttleyLaff:
Excuse my language
but you've probably guessed that I dont give a Foxtrot-Uniform-Charlie-Kilo about what type of water are in those passages,
as my stance on water baptism is no secret.
Do it, if you're compelled or feel the need to
but if you dont, please do not lose sleep over it. It isnt a do-or-die fanaticism

I just love it when people pull out the heresy card and play it
Something must have rattled and got them fidgety to do that

Nota bene, I am very particular and more concerned about John 3:5 and John 7:8
Do you agree both verses havev nothing whatsoever to dfo with physical or literal water

Another set of Unchristian rants saying nothing. Is it that you were programmed with those two passages or what? If you read my first post you should be in sober reflection not ranting here. I post it again below for you.

Syncan:
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and
of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the
kingdom of God. Jn.3:5
I have read someone saying Jesus did not mean water, this is a strange teaching even to the understanding of the apostles. Or how else will someone explain the waters of the following baptism passages?
1. Water found on the way, in Acts 8: 36. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
2. Water still called for by peter even after their receiving the Holy Spirit, in Acts 10:47. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
3. Water associated with river, in Acts 16:13-15. And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted .... And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira...And when she was baptized, and her household....
4. Water used for washing, in Acts 16:46 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
And to think "Christians" did not rebuke him, but everyone was busy attacking Italo, who alone pointed this out is alarming. Or do you all agree it wasn't water in those passages too

.

Syncan:
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and
of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the
kingdom of God. Jn.3:5

I have read someone saying Jesus did not mean water, this is a strange teaching even to the understanding of the apostles. Or how else will someone explain the waters of the following baptism passages?

1. Water found on the way, in Acts 8: 36. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

2. Water still called for by peter even after their receiving the Holy Spirit, in Acts 10:47. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

3. Water associated with river, in Acts 16:13-15. And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted .... And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira...And when she was baptized, and her household....

4. Water used for washing, in Acts 16:46 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

And to think "Christians" did not rebuke him, but everyone was busy attacking Italo, who alone pointed this out is alarming. Or do you all agree it wasn't water in those passages too

It amazes me how you have concluded that anywhere one sees water in the bible, it means physical water. The passages you quoted are undoubtedly talking of 'physical' water.

Muttleylaff was trying to make you understand that it was not everywhere water was written in the bible that it meant physical water. That was why he quoted John 7:38.

Bur, let us take a look at John 4:13-14 before John 7:37-39.
13. Jesus answered and said to her, Whoever drinks of this water (physical water from the well) will thirst again.
14. But whoever drinks of the water (spiritual water) that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. To you, was Jesus talking about giving people physical water? Let us see the meaning of the 'water' that Jesus talked about.
John 7:37-39
37. ....... If anyone thirsts, let him come and drink.
38. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
39. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT, whom those believing in Him would receive, for the Holy Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified.
We can see clearly here that 'water' spoken of signified the Holy Spirit and not physical water.

John 3:5 Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jesus was explaining the 'means or instruments' by which one will be born again.
1 Pet.1:23 Being BORN AGAIN not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, BY (through) the WORD of GOD which lives and abides forever.

It is only through water (the WORD of GOD) and the Holy Spirit that one becomes BORN AGAIN. No one becomes born again through physical water b/c to be born again is a spiritual affair, leading to eternal life. It happens spiritually through the WORD of GOD (water) that one hears and believes and through the Holy Spirit. Both the WORD of GOD (water) and the Holy Spirit are involved in the cleansing and in the regenerating work in one's life.

If the Spirit signified 'water' as we see in John 7:38-39, how come 'water' and 'the Spirit' who signified 'water' were written together in John 3:5? Learn to strike a balance to your understanding of the Scripture. Do not make a general conclusion with or hold onto some passages that will otherwise contradict other passages.

A bit of abuse from the Catholic's happens to me all the time, it seems they only know very little about the word of God.
They have their own bible-that I don't understand, example the baptism of infants.

And when one fronts up with the truth about the Lord, they seem to back paddle, calling for each other a like, while they run the other way-leaving behind written abuse and cursing, and from a distance they had cast the first stone.
Can anyone imagine how the Lord must of felt' when He spoke to the Pharisees.
Don't ya love them.

Barnabaseloka:

Thank you for showing the bolded but:
1. Did the bolded say that Peter was wrong in what he spoke as you claim that I wrote in my post?
2. Did you not read the words above it where I stated that Peter was right in what he said?
3. Did it bother you to read the remaining of the post to understand what I meant by Peter's words not being correlative?
I was careful in what I wrote and did not fall into the trap you set for me.
Up till now, you have not shown me where I wrote that Peter was wrong in what he said.

I tell you again:
Do not read someone's posts just to find errors and use them against the person, without carefully reading what he meant.
Read and understand so that you can effectively correct any misconstruction or any error in one's posts.
Again, have an open heart to learn from others and do not hold tenaciously to any passge/s that other passages can explain or balance.

Know that some passages in the bible are:
1. Self-explanatory in that you understand them as you read directly from them, without contradicting any other passage.
2. Not self-explanatory in that it will require a background study, comparing one passage with another to get a balanced understanding of them.

Following.

Barnabaseloka:

It amazes me how you have concluded that anywhere one sees water in the bible, it means physical water. The passages you quoted are undoubtedly talking of 'physical' water.

Muttleylaff was trying to make you understand that it was not everywhere water was written in the bible that it meant physical water. That was why he quoted John 7:38.

Bur, let us take a look at John 4:13-14 before John 7:37-39.
13. Jesus answered and said to her, Whoever drinks of this water (physical water from the well) will thirst again.
14. But whoever drinks of the water (spiritual water) that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. To you, was Jesus talking about giving people physical water? Let us see the meaning of the 'water' that Jesus talked about.
John 7:37-39
37. ....... If anyone thirsts, let him come and drink.
38. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
39. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT, whom those believing in Him would receive, for the Holy Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified.
We can see clearly here that 'water' spoken of signified the Holy Spirit and not physical water.

John 3:5 Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jesus was explaining the 'means or instruments' by which one will be born again.
1 Pet.1:23 Being BORN AGAIN not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, BY (through) the WORD of GOD which lives and abides forever.

It is only through water (the WORD of GOD) and the Holy Spirit that one becomes BORN AGAIN. No one becomes born again through physical water b/c to be born again is a spiritual affair, leading to eternal life. It happens spiritually through the WORD of GOD (water) that one hears and believes and through the Holy Spirit. Both the WORD of GOD (water) and the Holy Spirit are involved in the cleansing and in the regenerating work in one's life.

If the Spirit signified 'water' as we see in John 7:38-39, how come 'water' and 'the Spirit' who signified 'water' were written together in John 3:5? Learn to strike a balance to your understanding of the Scripture. Do not make a general conclusion with or hold onto some passages that will otherwise contradict other passages.

You particularly are an interesting fellow...you know what peter should have said but didnt say, you whose mother ceases to be your mother when you stop calling her mom... you say a lot at a time, too much talking drives you off point. The bold is what is important to the subject. Since the apostles understood Jn3:5 water as physical water as shown in those passages, when did the meaning change in the context of baptism. Imagine what philip must have told the ethiopian eunuch along the way about Jn3:5, that made him exclaim on citing water in acts 8. Imagine how important water event was; that made peter insist on it after the manifestation of the Holy Spirit on the people in acts 10. They held it as a very important requirement for those who are to be saved. Nothing suggests that physical water was ever removed. Maybe you need to re-evangelize peter, paul, philip and the rest.

Syncan:



You particularly are an interesting fellow...you know what peter should have said but didnt say, you whose mother ceases to be your mother when you stop calling her mom... you say a lot at a time, too much talking drives you off point. The bold is what is important to the subject. Since the apostles understood Jn3:5 water as physical water as shown in those passages, when did the meaning change in the context of baptism. Imagine what philip must have told the ethiopian eunuch along the way about Jn3:5, that made him exclaim on citing water in acts 8. Imagine how important water event was; that made peter insist on it after the manifestation of the Holy Spirit on the people in acts 10. They held it as a very important requirement for those who are to be saved. Nothing suggests that physical water was ever removed. Maybe you need to re-evangelize peter, paul, philip and the rest.

that is what I call spiritualising away the plain meaning of scripture.

They are alledging to see metaphor where there is non.

It is a beautiful tactic used in manipulating people and render discussions useless. Jesus says be born of water and the spirit, the apostles were baptising with water, but the new Christians are happy to spiritualise away the plain meaning and tell us it is "baptism by word".

brocab:
Lets read this together.
Luke 18:15- And they brought unto Him also infants, that He would touch them: But when His disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
Vs 16 Jesus called them to him and said: Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.

Of such is the kingdom of God.
You can see the children were brought to Jesus as an example, they either were to respond to the gospel as they grew older.
Or they believed as you believe in baptism at birth-like when Jesus laid his hands on them, you believe you are Automatically saved.

Vs 17 "Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it."
This verse say's it all, Jesus had showing us another example-we as adults need to humble ourselves as little children to be teachable, by our Father in Heaven.

Matthew 18:2-4, And Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them.
Vs 3, and said: "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of God.
Another example, converted to become as little children.
Vs 4, "Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

As you can see whoever humbles himself as a little child. And those who enter the kingdom of heaven have to believe, repent, be baptised and live a new life.
Peter at pentecost makes it clear that the promise was for that generation and their children, on the basis of repentance and baptism which could not be applied to their children until they were old enough to even understand.

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and let everyone of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remissions of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Babes haven't the slightest idea what sin is.
Vs 39-"For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are a far off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
So Peter said: all those who the Lord chooses, and so far it seems the Lord has chosen men, to become his disciples, men who have humbled themselves as children to believe in the gospel.

How about this scripture.
1 Corinthians 14:20-Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
Don't be angry, no-one is lying, we understand you haven't received to word of God clearly, but we are only here to help someone in need.

So you see, you believe as a child you were brought before the lord, baptised as a babe, which shows this does not save you, you need to make that final decision, a mature person would consider making a choice, turning him or herself over to the Lord in humbleness as a child, and becoming a born again Christian, only to follow after Christ, and learn about the scriptures.

We love ya brother..

Call me when you succeed in changing the word in Luke 18:15 from infants to children.

You're still a learner. Ask Barnabaseloka how he changes scripture to suit his heresies.

Syncan:



You particularly are an interesting fellow...you know what peter should have said but didnt say, you whose mother ceases to be your mother when you stop calling her mom... you say a lot at a time, too much talking drives you off point. The bold is what is important to the subject. Since the apostles understood Jn3:5 water as physical water as shown in those passages, when did the meaning change in the context of baptism. Imagine what philip must have told the ethiopian eunuch along the way about Jn3:5, that made him exclaim on citing water in acts 8. Imagine how important water event was; that made peter insist on it after the manifestation of the Holy Spirit on the people in acts 10. They held it as a very important requirement for those who are to be saved. Nothing suggests that physical water was ever removed. Maybe you need to re-evangelize peter, paul, philip and the rest.

Bro. Did you read my post carefully? You might have read it in a haste to pick out errors just as you have done. No one has denied the fact that baptism after one has believed in Christ is done with physical water, or did you not read the beginning part of my write-up? If you continue like this you will only get a biased or contradictory knowledge of the scriptures.

I made you know that it was not anywhere you see the word 'water' in the Scripture that it meant 'physical' water as in the case of baptism. Water can also be used to symbolize the 'Holy Spirit' as in John 7:37-39 and the 'WORD of God' as in 1 Pet.1:23, which are the two 'instruments' or 'means' by which one is born again in John 3:5. I made you understand that Jesus did not talk of giving people 'physical' water to drink but 'spiritual' water in John 4:13-14. What you succeeded in doing was not to understand what I have written but to talk pointless. It takes one to do a background study of some passages of the Scripture, under the power of the Holy Spirit to understand them.

I can see that you brood over what I wrote in the thread about 'Mary being the mother of God' but that is the truth. You don't need bringing up the issue here for it is irrelevant to the topic discussed. You surely know where to go if you want us to further discuss the issue. Know that everyone does not have the same understanding of the Scripture- some have got higher understanding than the others about a particular topic. One can increase his understanding of the scriptures by STUDYING them by the help of the Holy Spirit, and not by reading the bible like novels or newspapers or journals which will give one superficial meaning of them. When the truth stares you in the face, take away pride and accept it.

italo:
Call me when you succeed in changing the word in Luke 18:15 from infants to children.

You're still a learner. Ask Barnabaseloka how he changes scripture to suit his heresies.

Why have you mentioned my name again? Is it b/c I refuted what you wrote by not contradicting the scriptures which you wanted me to? You hold on to a particular passage/s which otherwise contradict/s other passages that some people quoted. Do you call that balanced understanding? Bro. do not read any passage and go with the meaning in it when there are other passages that will help you understand them clearly. This is what is called STUDYING the scriptures which you see as CHANGING the word.

Luke 18:15 talks about little children or infants or babies as you said coming to Jesus for Him to touch them. But it did not talk of infant baptism.

Barnabaseloka:

It amazes me how you have concluded that anywhere one sees water in the bible, it means physical water. The passages you quoted are undoubtedly talking of 'physical' water.

Muttleylaff was trying to make you understand that it was not everywhere water was written in the bible that it meant physical water. That was why he quoted John 7:38.

Bur, let us take a look at John 4:13-14 before John 7:37-39.
13. Jesus answered and said to her, Whoever drinks of this water (physical water from the well) will thirst again.
14. But whoever drinks of the water (spiritual water) that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. To you, was Jesus talking about giving people physical water? Let us see the meaning of the 'water' that Jesus talked about.
John 7:37-39
37. ....... If anyone thirsts, let him come and drink.
38. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
39. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT, whom those believing in Him would receive, for the Holy Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified.
We can see clearly here that 'water' spoken of signified the Holy Spirit and not physical water.

John 3:5 Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jesus was explaining the 'means or instruments' by which one will be born again.
1 Pet.1:23 Being BORN AGAIN not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, BY (through) the WORD of GOD which lives and abides forever.

It is only through water (the WORD of GOD) and the Holy Spirit that one becomes BORN AGAIN. No one becomes born again through physical water b/c to be born again is a spiritual affair, leading to eternal life. It happens spiritually through the WORD of GOD (water) that one hears and believes and through the Holy Spirit. Both the WORD of GOD (water) and the Holy Spirit are involved in the cleansing and in the regenerating work in one's life.

Word up brother and enough said.
The italo and Ubenedictus-Syncan backup gang are hard in hearing,
they are so set in their ways and thinking, that if the truth breathes down their neck they wont smell it, talkless see it

I have noticed that God usually allows things to happen (e.g. the literal water baptism, tithing etc) until when the real deal turns up.
The new renders the old obsolete, but understandably die-hards will stick to the old and God doesnt mind that.
What God has blessed no man can curse, and neither am I.
I have nowhere cursed water baptism but have only pointed out that there is a powerful and stronger baptism than physical or literal water

Left to such as these ones, we wont be flying in planes
because they'll be bawling against the law of aeromodynamics, pushing for the law of gravity

I have always maintained that:
#1 Baptisms is about immersion but it is not an exclusive use for water baptism alone (i.e. people get immersed in a countless of other things)
#2 We get baptised or immersed to make holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God’s word.
#3 Water is often used as an allegory or symbolism for God's word, which is through which all are saved

Like the Far-to-see aka Pharisee they dont realise that the truth will set them free, but first it will piss them off
Though it isnt, the truth can seem scary sometimes,
which is why, likes of Syncan particularly go on hissy fits, and become unnecessarily exasperated

Ubenedictus:
that is what I call spiritualising away the plain meaning of scripture.

They are alledging to see metaphor where there is non.

It is a beautiful tactic used in manipulating people and render discussions useless. Jesus says be born of water and the spirit, the apostles were baptising with water, but the new Christians are happy to spiritualise away the plain meaning and tell us it is "baptism by word".

Christians need to spiritualise because man is a spirit being
that is the destination we are heading to and end up at.

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth

Ubenedictus:
that is what I call spiritualising away the plain meaning of scripture.

They are alledging to see metaphor where there is non.

It is a beautiful tactic used in manipulating people and render discussions useless. Jesus says be born of water and the spirit, the apostles were baptising with water, but the new Christians are happy to spiritualise away the plain meaning and tell us it is "baptism by word".

Its indeed the height of insincerity, Jesus said water and spirit, the apostles understood it as water and spirit, the early Christians understood it to be water and spirit, but end time "evangelist" Barnabaseloka and muttleyLaff acting out 2pet.3:15 now sees "Word of God" where others had seen water. "Baptism by word" indeed.

Syncan:
Its indeed the height of insincerity, Jesus said water and spirit, the apostles understood it as water and spirit, the early Christians understood it to be water and spirit, but end time "evangelist" Barnabaseloka and muttleyLaff acting out 2pet.3:15 now sees "Word of God" where others had seen water. Baptism by word indeed.

Syncan steady on!
What have I to gain with lying, be insincere or dishonest?

Let's do this the bite-size way
What is another word for baptise and baptism?
Are baptise and baptism exclusively used in relation to water and for water only?
Can one be baptised with anything else than water?
Can one have a baptism of anything else than water?
What kind of water is Jesus referring to in John 7:38?
Syncan are you familiar with John 7:37-39 (i.e. particularly the instructive and revealing bit in verse 39)

I have reproduced two translations below of John 7:37-39, for you

Jesus Promises Living Water
³⁷On the last day, the climax of the festival, Jesus stood and shouted to the crowds, “Anyone who is thirsty may come to me!
³⁸Anyone who believes in me may come and drink! For the Scriptures declare, ‘Rivers of living water will flow from his heart.’”
³⁹(When he said “living water,” he was speaking of the Spirit, who would be given to everyone believing in him. But the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus had not yet entered into his glory.)

Living Water
³⁷Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.
³⁸"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"
³⁹But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Barnabaseloka:

Bro. Did you read my post carefully? You might have read it in a haste to pick out errors just as you have done. No one has denied the fact that baptism after one has believed in Christ is done with physical water, or did you not read the beginning part of my write-up? If you continue like this you will only get a biased or contradictory knowledge of the scriptures.

I made you know that it was not anywhere you see the word 'water' in the Scripture that it meant 'physical' water as in the case of baptism. Water can also be used to symbolize the 'Holy Spirit' as in John 7:37-39 and the 'WORD of God' as in 1 Pet.1:23, which are the two 'instruments' or 'means' by which one is born again in John 3:5. I made you understand that Jesus did not talk of giving people 'physical' water to drink but 'spiritual' water in John 4:13-14. What you succeeded in doing was not to understand what I have written but to talk pointless. It takes one to do a background study of some passages of the Scripture, under the power of the Holy Spirit to understand them.

I can see that you brood over what I wrote in the thread about 'Mary being the mother of God' but that is the truth. You don't need bringing up the issue here for it is irrelevant to the topic discussed. You surely know where to go if you want us to further discuss the issue. Know that everyone does not have the same understanding of the Scripture- some have got higher understanding than the others about a particular topic. One can increase his understanding of the scriptures by STUDYING them by the help of the Holy Spirit, and not by reading the bible like novels or newspapers or journals which will give one superficial meaning of them. When the truth stares you in the face, take away pride and accept it.

I read not only this post but all your posts here, that's how I knew you already brought in the "mother of God" thread here before made allusion to it . There is no need bringing in the use of water as allegories when talking about baptism in the first place, for the apostles showed that it was literal by their actions.

MuttleyLaff:
Syncan steady on!
What have I to gain with lying, be insincere or dishonest?

Let's do this the bite-size way
What is another word for baptise and baptism?
Are baptise and baptism exclusively used in relation to water and for water only?
Can one be baptised with anything else than water?
Can one have a baptism of anything else than water?
What kind of water is Jesus referring to in John 7:38?
Syncan are you familiar with John 7:37-39 (i.e. particularly the instructive and revealing bit in verse 39)

I have reproduced two translations below of John 7:37-39, for you

Jesus Promises Living Water
³⁷On the last day, the climax of the festival, Jesus stood and shouted to the crowds, “Anyone who is thirsty may come to me!
³⁸Anyone who believes in me may come and drink! For the Scriptures declare, ‘Rivers of living water will flow from his heart.’”
³⁹(When he said “living water,” he was speaking of the Spirit, who would be given to everyone believing in him. But the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus had not yet entered into his glory.)

Living Water
³⁷Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.
³⁸"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"
³⁹But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Oga, the fact that Jesus took bread at the last supper and say "this is my body" does not mean any time you see bread you call it Jesus body. Most times bread is simply bread. Those passages I posted are showing what the apostles understood and practiced as Jn3:15. They took water to be water. Meanwhile this is what you said below:

I have noticed that God usually allows things to happen (e.g. the literal water baptism, tithing etc) until when the real deal turns up.The new renders the old obsolete, but understandably die-hards will stick to the old and God doesnt mind that.

Now do you mind telling me when or what year/era water baptism became obsolete, since the apostles knew and practised only water baptism as recorded in scripture.

Syncan:
Oga, the fact that Jesus took bread at the last supper and say "this is my body" does not mean any time you see bread you call it Jesus body. Most times bread is simply bread.

I dont have any gripes where water is physical water
I have continually made known my concern is only and only is about verses like John 3:5 and John 7:38 where water there is not literal or physical water
Just for the record, are you saying John 3:5 and John 7:38 is physical and literal water?

Syncan:
Those passages I posted are showing what the apostles understood and practiced as Jn3:15.
They took water to be water. Meanwhile this is what you said below:

So? Have you got a problem with what I wrote?
Did something or all parts of it rattled your theology?
If any, what worried you in what I wrote?
What would you have the apostles say or do here:
https://www.nairaland.com/2383797/saved-faith-water-baptism/3#34882532

Syncan:
Now do you mind telling me when or what year/era water baptism became obsolete, since the apostles knew and practised only water baptism as recorded in scripture.

Syncan we are grown ups.
I have very crucial and deciding questions posed to you go unanswered
I asked if you're familiar with John 7:37-39 (i.e. particularly the instructive & revealing bit in verse 39) & also left you two translations, still nada
and here you are asking "do you mind telling me when or what year/era water baptism became obsolete"

Syncan:



I read not only this post but all your posts here, that's how I knew you already brought in the "mother of God" thread here before made allusion to it . There is no need bringing in the use of water as allegories when talking about baptism in the first place, for the apostles showed that it was literal by their actions.

Do you know that John 3:5 you have been arguing unnecessary about does not talk about 'baptism' but one being 'born again'?

Peter has told us one of the 'means' through which one is born again, which is the WORD of God in 1 Pet.1:23 that I have quoted. Then the other 'means' is through the Holy Spirit. These are the two that are stated in John 3:5 as 'water' and the Spirit. One becomes BORN AGAIN (repenting and believing in Jesus) before WATER BAPTISM. At the point of being born again, one can be filled with the Holy Spirit before one is baptized. Being 'born again' preceeds 'baptism'.

When one has been born again through the WORD of GOD one hears and believes and through the Holy Spirit, then baptism takes place. Know that baptism does not make one to be born again but the word of God and the Holy Spirit. It is not everywhere we see the word 'bread' that it signifies the 'body' of Jesus. So also, it is not everywhere we see 'water' that it signifies 'physical' water or talks about water baptism. People who are baptized are those who have been born again and not those who will be born again.

If 'physical' water, the Spirit and the word of God signify 'water', how will you conclude that the water in John 3:5 talks about 'physical' water and baptism?

So does this mean you haven't the slightest clue, about what the infant story is about, or maybe you are just to dumb to figure out what Luke 18:15-16 had said..
Again I say-Jesus gave us an example showing us in scriptures, when He asked in Vs 15-for the infants and Vs 16-children to come to Him, He has used this as a tool so we all could learn this parable, that none will enter into the kingdom of heaven if they don't humble themselves as one of these..
Luke 16, Jesus said: Let the little children come to Me, for of such is the kingdom of God.

These verses does not mean these children were baptised and saved at that time flame. When Jesus called for them, He had blessed them, He didn't save them, nor did He baptise them.
As most of us know' infants as well as Children at a curtain age are classed as babes without sin, and baptism is about the remission of sins

So the Catholic Church is practising, none other' then the word of God, and those who continual to follow after these so called pagan practises, and still prefer to join forces with this so called religion, like the Pharisees-Jesus said:
Matthew 23:13-"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Now answer my question where in the bible does it teach on the baptism of babies.
Don't you even recognise, your very own nesting's, your Church, who refuses to follow after the scriptures written by Jesus. Don't you know It is forbidding to change any words written in the bible.


And show me where its written that Barnabaseloka had changed the word of God, Or maybe you have chosen to lie about him too.

italo:
Call me when you succeed in changing the word in Luke 18:15 from infants to children.

You're still a learner. Ask Barnabaseloka how he changes scripture to suit his heresies.

Are you crying?
You say you believe in the verses written in the bible are true, in what way?
The Catholic Church prefer to re-write scriptures, other then the word of God, so the truth of the matter is your new bible, the baptism of infants is written by man himself-rather then obeying the truth as God had written it..

Your bible calls Mary your mediator, a pray warrior between god and man, followed by Mary holding Jesus, another pagan belief, Isis Queen of heaven-Mary Queen of heaven-Isis Mother of God-Mary Mother of God.
So are you mistaken when you say you believe in all the verses written in "what bible".

italo:


Stop lying. I have said several times that I believe all the verses are true.

You are the one who believes some verses were wrongly written.

That Peter said 'baptism is for remission of sin,' but he really meant 'baptism is NOT for the remission of sin.'

You said it was Jesus time in John 2, Jesus said his time hadn't come.

You said Mary's motherhood ended when he started preaching, the Bible called Mary his mother at the foot of the cross.

You said all who lived after Jesus would be judged by their faith in him, the Bible says the gentiles will be judged by their conscience.

You have told too many lies against the scriptures.

...and without remorse.

Barnabaseloka:

Do you know that John 3:5 you have been arguing unnecessary about does not talk about 'baptism' but one being 'born again'?

Peter has told us one of the 'means' through which one is born again, which is the WORD of God in 1 Pet.1:23 that I have quoted. Then the other 'means' is through the Holy Spirit. These are the two that are stated in John 3:5 as 'water' and the Spirit. One becomes BORN AGAIN (repenting and believing in Jesus) before WATER BAPTISM. At the point of being born again, one can be filled with the Holy Spirit before one is baptized. Being 'born again' preceeds 'baptism'.

When one has been born again through the WORD of GOD one hears and believes and through the Holy Spirit, then baptism takes place. Know that baptism does not make one to be born again but the word of God and the Holy Spirit. It is not everywhere we see the word 'bread' that it signifies the 'body' of Jesus. So also, it is not everywhere we see 'water' that it signifies 'physical' water or talks about water baptism. People who are baptized are those who have been born again and not those who will be born again.

If 'physical' water, the Spirit and the word of God signify 'water', how will you conclude that the water in John 3:5 talks about 'physical' water and baptism?

You should try re-evangelizing all the apostles...they went and baptized with water after John3:5 teaching...and continued to baptized with water after Pentecost.

You understand Jesus more than them.

Barnabaseloka:

Why have you mentioned my name again? Is it b/c I refuted what you wrote by not contradicting the scriptures which you wanted me to? You hold on to a particular passage/s which otherwise contradict/s other passages that some people quoted. Do you call that balanced understanding? Bro. do not read any passage and go with the meaning in it when there are other passages that will help you understand them clearly. This is what is called STUDYING the scriptures which you see as CHANGING the word.

Luke 18:15 talks about little children or infants or babies as you said coming to Jesus for Him to touch them. But it did not talk of infant baptism.

What is infant Baptism, if not bringing infants for Jesus to touch?

2. You still haven't said anything about Gentiles being judged with their conscience or not. Have you not found a way to change Romans 2? You need more time?

MuttleyLaff:
I dont have any gripes where water is physical water
I have continually made known my concern is only and only is about verses like John 3:5 and John 7:38 where water there is not literal or physical water
Just for the record, are you saying John 3:5 and John 7:38 is physical and literal water?
So? Have you got a problem with what I wrote?
Did something or all parts of it rattled your theology?
If any, what worried you in what I wrote?
What would you have the apostles say or do here:
https://www.nairaland.com/2383797/saved-faith-water-baptism/3#34882532
Syncan we are grown ups.
I have very crucial and deciding questions posed to you go unanswered
I asked if you're familiar with John 7:37-39 (i.e. particularly the instructive & revealing bit in verse 39) & also left you two translations, still nada
and here you are asking "do you mind telling me when or what year/era water baptism became obsolete"

John 7:38 is not necessarily physical water.

John 3:5 is physical water, otherwise where did Philip get the teaching that he had to baptize the Eunuch with physical water?

Secondly, where was hydatos ever translated as "word" or "spirit?"

OLAADEGBU:


Romans 5:1; Ephesians 2:8-9 and Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21

Saved by faith:

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:1)

"For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Saved by baptism:

"Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

"And now why do you tarry? Arise, and be baptised, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).

"The like figure whereunto even baptism does also now saves us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21).

Are we saved by faith or water baptism? (Suggested answer):

There is much debate within Christianity as to whether or not baptism is necessary for salvation. I cannot here exhaustively examine this issue, but I can affirm that baptism is not necessary for salvation. The scriptures teach that justification is by faith (Rom. 5:1). It also teaches that baptism is a necessary result of becoming a disciple of Christ (Matt. 28:18-19). Even 1 Peter 3:21 above says that the baptism mentioned is not one dealing with water, but an appeal to God.

God works covenantally. A covenant is a pact or agreement between two or more parties. The New Testament and Old Testaments are New and Old Covenants. The word "testament" comes from the Latin testamentum which means covenant. So, the Bible is a covenant document. If you don't understand covenant you cannot understand, in totality, the issue of baptism because baptism is a covenant sign. Covenant signs do not save. The things they represent are what save.

Regeneration occurs by faith (Rom. 5:1). Afterwards, baptism is administered as an outward representation of an inward reality. For example, it represents the reality of the inward washing of Christ's blood upon the soul. That is why it is used in different ways. It is said to represent the death of the person (Rom. 6:3-5), the union of that person with Christ (Gal. 3:27), the cleansing of that person's sins (Acts 22:16), the identification with the one "baptized into" as when the Israelites were baptized into Moses (1 Cor. 10:2), and being united in one church (1 Cor. 12:13). Also, baptism is one of the signs and seals of the Covenant of Grace that was instituted by Jesus.

Baptism is not a requirement of salvation, but it is so closely tied to it that some people erringly think it is the actual thing that saves. It isn't. Faith in Christ is what saves.

https://carm.org/bible-difficulties/luke-john-acts/are-we-saved-faith-or-baptism

italo:
John 7:38 is not necessarily physical water.

Thank you! That will do me

italo:
John 3:5 is physical water,

Hmm, here we go again

italo:
otherwise where did Philip get the teaching that he had to baptize the Eunuch with physical water?

OK, I'll have a bit of, another go, at this, because Philip, a Jew, was proselytising a Gentile, the Eunuch.

italo:
Secondly, where was hydatos ever translated as "word" or "spirit?"

Countless places, case in point is that John 7:38, you admitted up there, to not necessarily being physical water

OLAADEGBU:
[size=18pt]Are we saved by faith or water baptism? (Suggested answer):[/size]

There is much debate within Christianity as to whether or not baptism is necessary for salvation.
I cannot here exhaustively examine this issue, but I can affirm that baptism is not necessary for salvation.

The scriptures teach that justification is by faith (Rom. 5:1).
It also teaches that baptism is a necessary result of becoming a disciple of Christ (Matt. 28:18-19).

Even 1 Peter 3:21 above says that the baptism mentioned is not one dealing with water, but an appeal to God.

If you don't understand covenant you cannot understand, in totality, the issue of baptism because baptism is a covenant sign.
Covenant signs do not save. The things they represent are what save.

Baptism is not a requirement of salvation, but it is so closely tied to it that some people erringly think it is the actual thing that saves.
It isn't. Faith in Christ is what saves.

https://carm.org/bible-difficulties/luke-john-acts/are-we-saved-faith-or-baptism

I feel like giving you a bear hug

My position has always being that, since "God is a Spirit", He seeks worshippers "in Spirit and in Truth",
and where the heart is given to God in such way,
any sort of external rites or Pharisaic superstition, whether physical circumcision, physical water baptism etc can never be important

Though some of these things make up the costumes of an ancient dispensation and present church, it shouldnt really bother a glorious person living in an enlightened and spiritual Christian dispensation

italo:


You should try re-evangelizing all the apostles...they went and baptized with water after John3:5 teaching...and continued to baptized with water after Pentecost.

You understand Jesus more than them.

Bro. get rid of your pride and accept the truth when you come across one. Only those who are BORN AGAIN are required to go through WATER BAPTISM. It is not meant for those who WILL be born again after WATER BAPTISM. Learn to study rather than holding tenaciously to what you cannot explain and balance with other passages of the scriptures.

MuttleyLaff:
Thank you! That will do me

Hmm, here we go again

OK, I'll have a bit of, another go, at this, because Philip, a Jew, was proselytising a Gentile, the Eunuch.

Countless places, case in point is that John 7:38, you admitted up there, to not necessarily being physical water

Where did Philip get the teaching that he had to baptize the Eunuch with water, if not John 3:5?