Baptism and the Spirit.
Acts 19:2-6 "Paul said to them did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed "And they said to him we have not so much heard of such a Spirit, he then asked them' what then were you baptised? They said unto John the baptist
John the baptist indeed baptised you with a baptism of repentance, but they should believe on Him who came after John' when they heard this they were baptised in the name of Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied

But really what has this to do with you Catholic's anyway, you believe in infant baptism.

John 3:7 does not even mention about baptism-It only mentions how Jesus spoke to Nicodemus telling him one must be born again.
Another favourite device of the Devil is to have men look to their works for their salvation, instead of looking to Christ: Some depend upon lodge membership, some depend on their confessions to a priest; that's a fatal mistake.
The voice of all the scriptures is that people are saved by simple faith in Christ, without an act of righteousness and baptism is never mentioned as part of the plan of salvation.
Baptism is an act of righteousness.
Matthew 3:15 "For it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness.
Titus 3:5 "Say that such acts of righteousness does not save us:
Everyone knows one must believe {Saved} before baptism. [/color]

Syncan:



The thing is just so tiresome. Jesus said its water and spirit....they now say no, its word and spirit.

Philip taught the ethiopian eunuch that its water and went ahead to use water in acts 8....they say its because the ethiopian eunuch was a babe (as if any convert is an adult in the way already)


Peter knowing the importance of the water, insisted on it after the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10....They say he used his discretion.


Paul used water on lydia and the others in Acts 16...They have not said anything on it yet.

I don't know why they are afraid of water.

That's not all.

The same person said Jesus didn't tell his apostles to stop water baptism, because he hadn't died and resurrected yet. As if all of Jesus ministry on earth wasn't about telling people to stop wrong, do right; quit the old and come to the new. E.g Matt 5.

Peter said baptism is for remission of sin, the other one said Peter meant say 'Baptism is not for remission of sin.'

Who are these prophets that know more than Jesus, Peter, Philip, Paul etc?

Barnabaseloka:
1. And what do you have to say as regards Rom.6?
2. John 3:5 talks about being BORN AGAIN and not about WATER BAPTISM as you might have thought.
3. If one repents of his sins on hearing God's word and believes in Jesus, is he born again?
4. It is not everywhere the word 'water' is mentioned in the bible that it signifies 'physical' water. It can also signify the 'Holy Spirit' as well as the 'word of God'.
This is what we have been trying to make clear here.

God bless you.
This exactly is the genesis of this whole matter.
Before it spilled into this thread, it started between Kei144 and I, here https://www.nairaland.com/2352063/enter-kingdom-god-now#34519061

Ubenedictus:
you mean the "new" Christians need to spiritualise away the plain meaning of scripture and call obsolate that which scripture says unite us with Christ and make us partaker in his death and resurrection.

Clap for yourself, you just succeeded in making God's word look stupid because of your "church tradition".

God works in process.

Ubenedictus:
no dear, you didn't use those words, that must be due to the fact that italo is a crude guy!

God bless you, for exonerating me with "you didn't use those words"
and thank you noticing italo making up words from my post and putting words into my mouth.

Ubenedictus:
You instead called the command Jesus Christ in matt 28:19 and practice practice of his apostles ACT 2:41 and early Christians OBSOLATE!

That very thing which paul say we do "into Christ" and makes us sharers of his death and partakers in his resurrection, you have called obsolate.

No you didn't say they were "wrong things" you said they were old, passed and withered away, you compared the things of the new covenant and equated them with that of the old.

So? Obsolete is not a stigma or is it to you?

Ubenedictus:
Peter says "baptism save you now" but you would rather teach against scripture that it is obsolate!

Try and be objective instead of doing this the subjective way
This in the full and complete context, is what Peter said in that 1 Peter 3:21 you out of context referred to:
1 Peter 3:21
And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body,
but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Knowing what a picture is Ubenedictus, let's ask ourselves, is water baptism the "real deal"

You must have read from one of the earlier posts to italo, about the 100m race, the winner, and the Gold/Silver/Bronze prize award ceremony

Ubenedictus:
So I'll ask you, from whom have you recieved a different covenant that will make you teach that the rites of the new covenant is obsolate?

Because it seems clear to me you guys are certainly not operating in the covenant of Jesus Christ, you are not in d same covenant, paul, peter and the other apostles were! If you are in that same covenant you won't teach that it practices are obsolate.

Am 100% certain, you are unable to quote verbatim anyone or me particularly, on this thread "teaching" or stopping anyone from using things obsolete or things gone past/beyond the "Best Before" date

Ubenedictus:
this is why I enjoy the gospels, the evangelists always make sure to explain the figure of speech, d above passage is explained. Do you see any such explanation in jn 3:5?

What is actually written after that discourse is that Jesus went to the countryside of Judea and baptised.

There is nowhere that passage lends itself to figurative interpretation

Jesus DID NOT PERSONALLY water baptise anyone

Syncan:
Are you serious at the bold? What kind of baptism were the followers of John complaining about here :

John 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

Jesus DID NOT PERSONALLY water baptise anyone.
His disciples did the water baptism, not Jesus

Syncan:
The thing is just so tiresome. Jesus said its water and spirit....they now say no, its word and spirit.

Philip taught the ethiopian eunuch that its water and went ahead to use water in acts 8....they say its because the ethiopian eunuch was a babe (as if any convert is an adult in the way already)


Peter knowing the importance of the water, insisted on it after the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10....They say he used his discretion.


Paul used water on lydia and the others in Acts 16...They have not said anything on it yet.

Like your third-person narration, it cracked me up
It reminded me of Fashola & Ambode using same when referring to PDP or Jimi Agbaje

Syncan:
I don't know why they are afraid of water.

We are 98% water, so cant understand the "I don't know why they are afraid of water" bit
Thats an oxymoron, in a way, right there, considering we are 98% water

italo:
That's not all.

The same person said Jesus didn't tell his apostles to stop water baptism, because he hadn't died and resurrected yet. As if all of Jesus ministry on earth wasn't about telling people to stop wrong, do right; quit the old and come to the new. E.g Matt 5.

Peter said baptism is for remission of sin, the other one said Peter meant say 'Baptism is not for remission of sin.'

Who are these prophets that know more than Jesus, Peter, Philip, Paul etc?

Changing to the first-person narration here, just cracked me
Peter, Paul, Jesus, John the Baptist are refering to the real thing, not the symbol or picture water baptism
It is not the picture/symbol that washes or cleanses but the Fire or the Spirit through the word does
Salvation is a faith thing, and faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God
Dipping, immersion etc in physical water or doing water baptism doesnt necessarily save nor gives Salvation, it only typifies

1 Corinthians 12:13 explains the real event that occurs in our inner man by the Power of the Holy Spirit that makes us born again; water baptism then follows as an outward testimony:

12 For by [means of the personal agency of] one [Holy] Spirit we were all, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free, baptized [and]by baptism united together] into one body, and all made to drink of one [Holy] Spirit.

sportsmaster:
there is an article on the subject of BAPTISM on this site.
Www.livingwordmedia.org

click on menu,at the topmost right side of the page.
Locate "Saints community and You bulletins".
You will see a material on the subject of baptism.
its free

Thanks for sharing those 2 articles on the subject of BAPTISM on that site
Read both last night, they are very instructive and on point, though it hit the nail on the head, pity it wasnt that very explicit

MuttleyLaff:
God works in process.

God bless you, for exonerating me with "you didn't use those words"
and thank you noticing italo making up words from my post and putting words into my mouth.

So? Obsolete is not a stigma or is it to you?

Try and be objective instead of doing this the subjective way
This in the full and complete context, is what Peter said in that 1 Peter 3:21 you out of context referred to:
1 Peter 3:21
And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body,
but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

another thing that pains me is when a Christian decides to play ping pong with scriptures.

This is what my bible says.

From vs 20b

in the days of Noah during the building of the ark in which a few persons, eight in all were saved through water. This prefigured baptism which saves you now

that passage says the waters in noahs time prefigures, foreshadowed, is an antitype of baptism which now saves me.

It didn't say baptism is a mere picture or a figure, it instead said the waters of Noahs day is a figure of baptism which today saves us.

You should go back and study the passage and maybe learn a little english.

Am 100% certain, you are unable to quote verbatim anyone or me particularly, on this thread "teaching" or stopping anyone from using things obsolete or things gone past/beyond the "Best Before" date

no! You didn't shout "stop it". You just called a new testament practice obsolate. And you remember Paul says what is old and obsolate is to pass away? When you start calling new testament practices obsolate then you are alledging the new covenant has failed, is obsolate and passing away.

For you its no big deal right?

Jesus DID NOT PERSONALLY water baptise anyone
Jesus DID NOT PERSONALLY water baptise anyone.
His disciples did the water baptism, not Jesus

hahaha,

you should read your bible more often, unless ofcourse you believe the bible writters were mistaken.

Jn 3:22

After this, Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them baptising

Ubenedictus:

This is what my bible says.

From vs 20b

in the days of Noah during the building of the ark in which a few persons, eight in all were saved through water. This prefigured baptism which saves you now

that passage says the waters in noahs time prefigures, foreshadowed, is an antitype of baptism which now saves me.

It didn't say baptism is a mere picture or a figure, it instead said the waters of Noahs day is a figure of baptism which today saves us.

You should go back and study the passage and maybe learn a little english.



no! You didn't shout "stop it". You just called a new testament practice obsolate. And you remember Paul says what is old and obsolate is to pass away? When you start calling new testament practices obsolate then you are alledging the new covenant has failed, is obsolate and passing away.

For you its no big deal right?



hahaha,

you should read your bible more often, unless ofcourse you believe the bible writters were mistaken.

Jn 3:22

After this, Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them baptising

Kindly see John 4:2
2 Though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples—
Sorry for interfering

MuttleyLaff:

Try and be objective instead of doing this the subjective way
This in the full and complete context, is what Peter said in that 1 Peter 3:21 you out of context referred to:
1 Peter 3:21
And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body,
but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Knowing what a picture is Ubenedictus, let's ask ourselves, is water baptism the "real deal"

No. Here is a fuller context:

1Peter3:20 those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood. 21And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Which water is a picture? - The flood.

Picture of what, what is the real deal? - Baptism.

What does baptism do now? - It now saves v21 (as Noah was saved through water v20)

MuttleyLaff:

Jesus DID NOT PERSONALLY water baptise anyone.
His disciples did the water baptism, not Jesus

But Jesus commanded them to baptize with water in Matt 28:19 (or can a man baptize another man with the Holy Spirit?)and didn't anywhere correct that teaching...and they obeyed. You know better than Jesus and his apostles.

Scholar8200:
1 Corinthians 12:13 explains the real event that occurs in our inner man by the Power of the Holy Spirit that makes us born again; water baptism then follows as an outward testimony:

12 For by [means of the personal agency of] one [Holy] Spirit we were all, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free, baptized [and]by baptism united together] into one body, and all made to drink of one [Holy] Spirit.

This is why Paul's primary focus was to preach the gospel and bring people to the point of believing hence he said

1 Corinth 1:17

17 For Christ sent me out not to baptize but [to evangelize by] preaching the glad tidings (the Gospel),

If their being baptised in water was salvation, then he was wasting time and leaving out the real issue!

But he knew that:

Ephesians 2:8
8 For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved ([c]delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;

Ubenedictus:



i think rm 6 should free you from the constant jumping and dodging you have been doing.

Rm 6:4

So by our baptism into his death we were buried with him, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the father's glorious power, we too begin living a new life

this shows us that the new life we are talking about is giving to us in baptism as we are buried with Christ and rise to newness of life. This my dear is a very clear passage and it also makes it clear that the birth of water and spirit is truly of water and spirit. It is certain baptism.

Unless ofcuz you believe paul was talking about "the word"....

Rom.6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Paul showed the 'significance' of baptism here, which is 'walking in the newness of life'. As we are baptised, it shows that we have died with Christ. As we are raised from the water, it shows that we have risen with Christ unto 'living in newness of life'. Paul used this to demostrate what water baptism meant i.e its significance in our lives. It is not at the point of baptism that one is saved. One is saved before going for water baptism, which shows physically how one has died with Christ and risen with Him into living a new life.

Scholar8200:
1 Corinthians 12:13 explains the real event that occurs in our inner man by the Power of the Holy Spirit that makes us born again; water baptism then follows as an outward testimony:

12 For by [means of the personal agency of] one [Holy] Spirit we were all, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free, baptized [and]by baptism united together] into one body, and all made to drink of one [Holy] Spirit.

No it explains that we were baptized by the power of the Holy Spirit...did you think baptism was just done by pouring ordinary water without the Holy Spirit?

Nowhere does the verse say anything like "outward testimony."

Scholar8200:


Kindly see John 4:2
2 Though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples—
Sorry for interfering

Saul did not stone Stephen, but he supervised it, how does that exonerate Saul from the stoning of Stephen. Isn't it going to be off point for someone to be arguing that Saul did not kill Stephen?

Scholar8200:


This is why Paul's primary focus was to preach the gospel and bring people to the point of believing hence he said

1 Corinth 1:17

17 For Christ sent me out not to baptize but [to evangelize by] preaching the glad tidings (the Gospel),

If their being baptised in water was salvation, then he was wasting time and leaving out the real issue!

But he knew that:

Ephesians 2:8
8 For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved ([c]delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;

But Paul baptized people!

Yes or no?

Ubenedictus:

1. To answer your other questions
and i submit, that to be born again and to be baptised are exactly the same thing.


2. no sir,
to repent and accept Jesus is a good thing but that isn't what the bible means by born again, to be born again is to receive new life by water and the holyspirit, and the water is really water and this has been the consistent belief and understanding of all Christians for abt 1700yrs until calvin reformed the reformation, anyone who it defining it differently is making a new doctrine unknown to all older christians and playing with the word of God. It is of these "latter teaching" that scriptures rightly warn us about.



my dear water is used as a symbol for things in scripture apart from "physical water", nobody is argueing that, instead I am saying for the passage at hand the literal water is the exact meaning of the passage, the practice of all early Christian and the consistent belief of christian, the latter teaching been inventions of men!

1. Being BORN AGAIN and being BAPTISED with WATER are never the same thing. Being born again PRECEEDS (occurs first before) being baptised with water.

2. You mean that one has not been born again (saved) if as a sinner, hears the salvation message and accepts Christ into his life (believes in Jesus)? This your belief is erroneous.
Acts 16:30 ... Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31. So they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.

italo:


But Paul baptized people!

Yes or no?

Sure! After they had believed with the heart; not before.

italo:


No it explains that we were baptized by the power of the Holy Spirit...did you think baptism was just done by pouring ordinary water without the Holy Spirit?

Nowhere does the verse say anything like "outward testimony."

Explain the highlighted citing relevant scriptures vis a vis Ephesians 1:13

13 In Him you also who have heard the Word of Truth, the glad tidings (Gospel) of your salvation, and have believed ... on Him, were stamped with the seal of the long-promised Holy Spirit.

Scholar8200:
Sure! After they had believed with the heart; not before.

Believing is part of baptism.

The baptism we are talking about...is it the same one Peter said is for remission of sin in Acts2:38?

Do you also believe Barnabaseloka when he says Peter meant the opposite of what he wrote?

Or did Peter write the correct thing?

At what point was the ethiopian Eunuch saved, at what point was cornelius and his household saved, at what point was lydia and her household saved?

italo:


Believing is part of baptism.

The baptism we are talking about...is it the same one Peter said is for remission of sin in Acts2:38?

Do you also believe Barnabaseloka when he says Peter meant the opposite of what he wrote?

Or did Peter write the correct thing?

I thought I have told you to quote me exactly. I did not write that Peter meant the opposite of what he wrote. Do not try to trap people so that they will contradict the scriptures. It will not work out for you. Quote what I have written as it is.

Scholar8200:
Explain the highlighted citing relevant scriptures vis a vis Ephesians 1:13
13 In Him you also who have heard the Word of Truth, the glad tidings (Gospel) of your salvation, and have believed ... on Him, were stamped with the seal of the long-promised Holy Spirit.

Read Eph 1:13,14

Then Read Acts 2:38,39,41

The Ephesians were baptized.

Baptized is by the power of the Holy Spirit. Baptism is different from swimming, or bathing.

If believing is part of baptism, then how did you believe when you were baptised at birth' and how were you baptised for the remissions of sins, when Jesus said In Luke 18:15-16 "Let the infants and the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them, for of such is the kingdom of God.
Jesus had said: before He laid His hands upon them' He said: these infants and little children at a certain age are sinless.
So how is it' you say believing is part of baptism, when you were sinless to be baptised in the first place

You and the rest of your gang of religion isn't making sense. You have started an argument, about baptism when it's you who don't follow after the scriptures of baptism.
This argument is pointless.

italo:


Believing is part of baptism.

The baptism we are talking about...is it the same one Peter said is for remission of sin in Acts2:38?

Do you also believe Barnabaseloka when he says Peter meant the opposite of what he wrote?

Or did Peter write the correct thing?

italo:


Believing is part of baptism.

The baptism we are talking about...is it the same one Peter said is for remission of sin in Acts2:38?

Do you also believe Barnabaseloka when he says Peter meant the opposite of what he wrote?

Or did Peter write the correct thing?

Remission of sin is not without the Blood or faith therein: Hebrews 9:22
22 [In fact] under the Law almost everything is purified by means of blood, and without the shedding of blood there is neither release from sin and its guilt nor the remission of the due and merited punishment for sins.

Since it is so, your stance will be an accusation that Peter was contradicting a generally known Divine principle. But if we consider it from the perspective that Peter's sermon and other scriptures were inspired by the Holy Spirit, you will realise that they all clarify and complement each other.

Besides believing precedes baptism and is more important. Note the order:
Acts 16:30,31
Q: 30.... what is it necessary for me to do that I may be saved?

A:31 ... Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ [[d]give yourself up to Him, [e] take yourself out of your own keeping and entrust yourself into His keeping] and you will be saved,...



They that truly believe receive the Spirit by Whom they are born again

John 7:39

39 But He was speaking here of the Spirit, Whom those who believed (trusted, had faith) in Him were afterward to receive. For the [Holy] Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (raised to honor).


Another practise is the Lord's supper. Paul by inspiration wrote that there were some who took part unworthily and were judged (some even died!). Why? They lacked the faith (and expected effects of newness of life) that should have qualified them. Now if taking part in the Lord's supper did not qualify them, how would being baptised in water qualify them? Also were they not already baptised? Why were they still judged?

If one can take part in one unworthily then it means certain things must be in place before you can avail yourself for either sacraments

Ubenedictus:
To answer your other questions
and i submit, that to be born again and to be baptised are exactly the same thing.


no sir,
to repent and accept Jesus is a good thing but that isn't what the bible means by born again, to be born again is to receive new life by water and the holyspirit, and the water is really water and this has been the consistent belief and understanding of all Christians for abt 1700yrs until calvin reformed the reformation, anyone who it defining it differently is making a new doctrine unknown to all older christians and playing with the word of God. It is of these "latter teaching" that scriptures rightly warn us about.



my dear water is used as a symbol for things in scripture apart from "physical water", nobody is argueing that, instead I am saying for the passage at hand the literal water is the exact meaning of the passage, the practice of all early Christian and the consistent belief of christian, the latter teaching been inventions of men!

Note: One can be baptized with water before being filled with the Holy Spirit or vice versa. Nevertheless, one MUST be saved (born again) before any of the two above takes place.

In Acts 16:30-32, the jailer and his household heard the word of God and believed on the Lord Jesus. This showed that they were saved, i:e born again by the word of God they heard, before they were baptized with water in Vs.33.

Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word
47. Can anyone forbid water that these should not be baptised who have received the HolySpirit just as we have?
48. And he commanded them to be baptised in the name of the Lord...
Here we can see that they did not say a word with their mouths. They only believed in their hearts and they became filled with the Holy Spirit, even before water baptism. We know that the Holy Spirit is meant for believers in Christ. Why would one who had not been saved from his sin, as a result of not being baptized with water, be filled with the Holy Spirit?

All i want you to understand is that one becomes born again (saved), which takes place spiritually as a result of (through) the word of God one hears and believes and the Holy Spirit. This is what John 3:5 means.

Scholar8200:


Remission of sin is not without the Blood or faith therein: Hebrews 9:22
22 [In fact] under the Law almost everything is purified by means of blood, and without the shedding of blood there is neither release from sin and its guilt nor the remission of the due and merited punishment for sins.

Since it is so, your stance will be an accusation that Peter was contradicting a generally known Divine principle. But if we consider it from the perspective that Peter's sermon and other scriptures were inspired by the Holy Spirit, you will realise that they all clarify and complement each other.

Besides believing precedes baptism and is more important. Note the order:
Acts 16:30,31
Q: 30.... what is it necessary for me to do that I may be saved?

A:31 ... Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ [[d]give yourself up to Him, [e] take yourself out of your own keeping and entrust yourself into His keeping] and you will be saved,...



They that truly believe receive the Spirit by Whom they are born again

John 7:39

39 But He was speaking here of the Spirit, Whom those who believed (trusted, had faith) in Him were afterward to receive. For the [Holy] Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (raised to honor).

So you're say Peter was correct when he said 'baptism is for remission of sins?'

italo:


So you're say Peter was correct when he said 'baptism is for remission of sins?'

Here I stand:

Remission of sin is not without the Blood or faith therein: Hebrews 9:22
22 [In fact] under the Law almost everything is purified by means of blood, and without the shedding of blood there is neither release from sin and its guilt nor the remission of the due and merited punishment for sins.

Since it is so, your stance will be an accusation that Peter was contradicting a generally known Divine principle. But if we consider it from the perspective that Peter's sermon and other scriptures were inspired by the Holy Spirit, you will realise that they all clarify and complement each other.

Scholar8200:
Here I stand:

And here you disagree:

Acts3:38Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Barnabaseloka:

Note: One can be baptized with water before being filled with the Holy Spirit or vice versa. Nevertheless, one MUST be saved (born again) before any of the two above takes place.

In Acts 16:30-32, the jailer and his household heard the word of God and believed on the Lord Jesus. This showed that they were saved, i:e born again by the word of God they heard, before they were baptized with water in Vs.33.

Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word
47. Can anyone forbid water that these should not be baptised who have received the HolySpirit just as we have?
48. And he commanded them to be baptised in the name of the Lord...
Here we can see that they did not say a word with their mouths. They only believed in their hearts and they became filled with the Holy Spirit, even before water baptism. We know that the Holy Spirit is meant for believers in Christ. Why would one who had not been saved from his sin, as a result of not being baptized with water, be filled with the Holy Spirit?

All i want you to understand is that one becomes born again (saved), which takes place spiritually as a result of (through) the word of God one hears and believes and the Holy Spirit. This is what John 3:5 means.

At what point was Paul saved?

At what point were his sins washed away?

Cc scholar8200

Barnabaseloka:

Note: One can be baptized with water before being filled with the Holy Spirit or vice versa. Nevertheless, one MUST be saved (born again) before any of the two above takes place.

In Acts 16:30-32, the jailer and his household heard the word of God and believed on the Lord Jesus. This showed that they were saved, i:e born again by the word of God they heard, before they were baptized with water in Vs.33.

Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word
47. Can anyone forbid water that these should not be baptised who have received the HolySpirit just as we have?
48. And he commanded them to be baptised in the name of the Lord...
Here we can see that they did not say a word with their mouths. They only believed in their hearts and they became filled with the Holy Spirit, even before water baptism. We know that the Holy Spirit is meant for believers in Christ. Why would one who had not been saved from his sin, as a result of not being baptized with water, be filled with the Holy Spirit?

All i want you to understand is that one becomes born again (saved), which takes place spiritually as a result of (through) the word of God one hears and believes and the Holy Spirit. This is what John 3:5 means.

Note that by the bold, you successfully eliminated both water and the Holy Spirit from Jn 3:5. Well done.

Meanwhile, as a follow up see the below:

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
19:7 And all the men were about twelve.


The people Paul met in this passage, at what point were they born again?

italo:


And here you disagree:

Acts3:38Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And why did he forget that element in his second sermon?
Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Peter also said conversion or being born again is by the Word (the hearing of which brings saving faith)

1 Peter 1:23
being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.(reminds me of John3:5)

I am not against water baptism after genuine salvation.

italo:


At what point was Paul saved?

At what point were his sins washed away?

Cc scholar8200

At the point he met/encountered the Lord and surrendered to His Lordship! Note that unlike Cornelius,he was not asked to call for one to preach the Gospel to him. Why? He encountered He Who is the Gospel!

Why would Ananias call him brother Saul? (Knowing the terrorist he had been days ago)

Syncan:


Note that by the bold, you successfully eliminated both water and the Holy Spirit from Jn 3:5. Well done.

Meanwhile, as a follow up see the below:

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
19:7 And all the men were about twelve.


The people Paul met in this passage, at what point were they born again?

See what Acts 19:2 says: he said to them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you BELIEVED? This showed that they were born again b/c they have believed in Jesus. You misunderstand me. I said that water baptism can take place before one is filled with the Holy Spirit, or one can be filled with the Holy Spirit before water baptism. But one MUST be born again (repent and believe in Jesus) before the two above will take place.

I did not eliminate water and the Holy Spirit. The word of God, which symbolizes 'water' is the gospel one hears as a sinner, repents and believes in Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the one who convicts the sinner of his sins as he hears the word of God. These two work in the life of the sinner to bring him to the point of being born again, before water baptism takes place.