Faith comes first before baptism. Faith is believing. U cant be baptize if you dnt believe in baptism. Nevertheless we are saved by grace. Many may have faith but may not be save if the grace is not there for them to please God.

Barnabaseloka:

1. Being BORN AGAIN and being BAPTISED with WATER are never the same thing. Being born again PRECEEDS (occurs first before) being baptised with water.

that is what YOU are saying, that was certainly not what Christians before calvin were saying all the way back to the apostles. Born again was alway water and spirit, it didn't preceed water nor spirit.

I hear what you say, but I submit that it is a latter day manipulation not a Christian truth.

2. You mean that one has not been born again (saved) if as a sinner, hears the salvation message and accepts Christ into his life (believes in Jesus)? This your belief is erroneous.
Acts 16:30 ... Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31. So they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.

all you need to do is continue reading.

32 Late as it was, he took them to wash their wounds, and was baptised there and then with all his household.


The apostles didn't separate faith from baptism, it is yoy who do so hence the reason why paul will say in Rm 6 "baptism which unite us to Christ".

italo:

At what point was Paul saved?
At what point were his sins washed away?
Cc scholar8200

Go back and read what I have written on Paul and his conversion.

Barnabaseloka:

See what Acts 19:2 says: he said to them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you BELIEVED? This showed that they were born again b/c they have believed in Jesus. You misunderstand me. I said that water baptism can take place before one is filled with the Holy Spirit, or one can be filled with the Holy Spirit before water baptism. But one MUST be born again (repent and believe in Jesus) before the two above will take place.

I did not eliminate water and the Holy Spirit. The word of God, which symbolizes 'water' is the gospel one hears as a sinner, repents and believes in Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the one who convicts the sinner of his sins as he hears the word of God. These two work in the life of the sinner to bring him to the point of being born again, before water baptism takes place.

Interesting @ bold. We know that, when a person is born again,the Holy Spirit takes up residence in that person’s life ( 1 Corinthians 6:19 ). If a person does not have the Holy Spirit, then he does not belong to Christ ( Romans 8:9 ). So why is it that these men in Ephesus did not have the Holy Spirit,
when you say they are born again already?

Scholar8200:


At the point he met/encountered the Lord and surrendered to His Lordship! Note that unlike Cornelius,he was not asked to call for one to preach the Gospel to him. Why? He encountered He Who is the Gospel!

Why would Ananias call him brother Saul? (Knowing the terrorist he had been days ago)

Seeing that Paul only received the Holy Spirit, was baptized and had his sins washed away, when Ananias got to him, are you saying a person can be saved, yet not receive the Holy Spirit, and remain with his previous sins?

Cc Barnabaseloka

preetyb:
Faith comes first before baptism. Faith is believing. U cant be baptize if you dnt believe in baptism. Nevertheless we are saved by grace. Many may have faith but may not be save if the grace is not there for them to please God.

I cannot fault you at all. What it means is that at the point of your baptism, the required faith is present, such that when you get baptised all is fulfilled. However a faith that does not lead you to baptism is dead, it is not the faith of the apostles, that faith cannot help you.

Barnabaseloka:

Go back and read what I have written on Paul and his conversion.

It is up to you to answer these simple questios...or be scared of them.

See how simply scholar8820 answered. If it's you, you'll write a meaningless essay and still not attempt the question.

this topic shd not attract much controversy,it a simple issue.
Jesus did not baptize anyone with water.the Apostles did.
The physical water does not cleanse the heart,Notice the cases in the book of acts where the Apostles baptised people.
firstly ,they preached Christ to the People and then went ahead to baptise them with water.


study the follow scriptures,
acts8:
philip preached christ to them,the Apostles(Peter and John),laid hands on them that they might receieve the Holy Ghost,i think later in that chapter,it was recorded that they were baptised,I am not too sure.
somebody help check acts8 to verify.

when Jesus was baptized by John,its a only a symbol of what was to come.which is that Jesus was going to be identified with Man as a sinner(2cor5:21).
As we all know,John the baptist baptised the Sinners and Jesus was NOT a sinner.
Jesus' baptism was only a symbol that he was going to become a sinner so that we maybe made righteous(see 2cor5:21)

Ezekiel 26:24-26:-
the water spoken about here is "figurative",it is not talking about Physical water.
1cor6:11:- notice the word "washed" then relate this scripture to Acts 22:16.

Then finally compare everything to John15:3.
You will see that, it is his Word that cleanses us.

Then all the dots will connect.
what really matters is to be washed and sanctified by the Blood of Jesus which occurs at the new birth(salvation).

I could have expantiated a lot futher but i dont have my bible here,My laptop is at home,and i use a Nokia E5 to type here.No bible for my phone.Make una no vex.

Ubenedictus:
that is what YOU are saying, that was certainly not what Christians before calvin were saying all the way back to the apostles. Born again was alway water and spirit, it didn't preceed water nor spirit.

I hear what you say, but I submit that it is a latter day manipulation not a Christian truth.

all you need to do is continue reading.

32 Late as it was, he took them to wash their wounds, and was baptised there and then with all his household.


The apostles didn't separate faith from baptism, it is yoy who do so hence the reason why paul will say in Rm 6 "baptism which unite us to Christ".

I don't know who Calvin was and I do not wish to know. Everyone with an open heart will easily understand what I have written concerning being 'born again'. All Christians believe that being born again preceeds water baptism, except you and few others who are yet to come to terms with this truth.

Water baptism does not save a sinner, but only the word of God and the Holy Spiriit. Water baptism is a 'physical' replica of what has 'spiritually' happened to anyone who is born again. It conotes how one has died with Christ (dipping in water) and the way one has risen with Christ (raised from the water) unto newness of life. Water baptism uses physical illustration to explain to one who is born again what really happened to such life spiritually. The 'spiritual' (being born again) MUST take palce before the 'physical' (water baptism).

Syncan:



Interesting @ bold. We know that, when a person is born again,the Holy Spirit takes up residence in that person’s life ( 1 Corinthians 6:19 ). If a person does not have the Holy Spirit, then he does not belong to Christ ( Romans 8:9 ). So why is it that these men in Ephesus did not have the Holy Spirit,
when you say they are born again already?

Prepare for the eight wonder of the world.

He may come and tell you how St. Paul didn't mean what he wrote in those verses...

Or how St. Paul later changed the teaching...

MuttleyLaff:
Thanks for sharing those 2 articles on the subject of BAPTISM on that site
Read both last night, they are very instructive and on point, though it hit the nail on the head, pity it wasnt that very explicit

You're welcome bro.
Those are just bulletins,there is not enough space to fully capture all the words,
A bulletin must not be too voluminous,People will not read.

You can search the websites for teachings.
You can also visit the E-books section.
There are short e-books on subjects like

1Tongues
2Concerning tithes,offerings and giving
3Righteousness
4what every believer Must know
And many other materials.
Audio teachings are available too.
Locate any subject of you wish to study
And i Assure you that You will be blessed by those teachings.
God bless you.

Syncan:



Interesting @ bold. We know that, when a person is born again,the Holy Spirit takes up residence in that person’s life ( 1 Corinthians 6:19 ). If a person does not have the Holy Spirit, then he does not belong to Christ ( Romans 8:9 ). So why is it that these men in Ephesus did not have the Holy Spirit,
when you say they are born again already?

The incident at Acts 19:1-7 was referring to the Baptism with the Spirit quite distinct from being born of the Spirit (John 3:3-5). No one experiences the events in verse 6 at the point of being born again except those who seek for and receive that Baptism.

Acts 19:6
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

italo:


Seeing that Paul only received the Holy Spirit, was baptized and had his sins washed away, when Ananias got to him, are you saying a person can be saved, yet not receive the Holy Spirit, and remain with his previous sins?

Cc Barnabaseloka

Up till now, you are still hardened in your heart.
Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house, and laying his hands on him said 'Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and, be FILLED with the Holy Spirit.
18. Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was BAPTIZED.

Ananias did not need preaching to Paul again about salvation b/c Jesus had already met him on his way to Damascus. In Vs. 11, Paul was already praying, which I believe was that of repentance and believing in Jesus. This was manifest when Ananias called him 'Brother Saul'. It clearly showed that Paul had repented and believed. The only work Ananias did there was to pray for Paul to see again and to baptize him. Note also that Paul received his sight, was first filled with the Holy Spirit before he became baptized (Vs.17).

In summary, Paul repented, believed in Jesus, was filled with the Holy Spirit and was baptized. Only those who have been saved will be filled with the Holy Spirit and be baptized with water or vice versa.

italo:


Seeing that Paul only received the Holy Spirit, was baptized and had his sins washed away, when Ananias got to him, are you saying a person can be saved, yet not receive the Holy Spirit, and remain with his previous sins?

Cc Barnabaseloka

You appear to be confusing being born of the Spirit with being Baptised with the Spirit. They are not the same thing. Paul was saved and his sins washed away at the point he did the following:

Romans 10:9

that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

At this point of believing, a person (who genuinely repents) is saved by the Power of the Holy Spirit but He is not yet Baptised with the Spirit for service'
Acts 1:5,8
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Barnabaseloka:

Rom.6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Paul showed the 'significance' of baptism here, which is 'walking in the newness of life'. As we are baptised, it shows that we have died with Christ. As we are raised from the water, it shows that we have risen with Christ unto 'living in newness of life'. Paul used this to demostrate what water baptism meant i.e its significance in our lives. It is not at the point of baptism that one is saved. One is saved before going for water baptism, which shows physically how one has died with Christ and risen with Him into living a new life.

sorry paul didn't say one was saved before baptism certainly not what Rm 6 is saying. It isn't saying "baptism symbolised what you have already received", it actual says "in baptism you were buried with him" and you were raised with him, put simply, in baptism you received savation.

Syncan:



Interesting @ bold. We know that, when a person is born again,the Holy Spirit takes up residence in that person’s life ( 1 Corinthians 6:19 ). If a person does not have the Holy Spirit, then he does not belong to Christ ( Romans 8:9 ). So why is it that these men in Ephesus did not have the Holy Spirit,
when you say they are born again already?

Acts 19:4 Then Paul said, John indeed baptized with a baptism of REPENTANCE, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is on Christ Jesus.
5. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
I say again that they were believers b/c they believed the gospel of Jesus (vs. 1). Here we see two baptisms-John's baptism and the baptism commanded by Jesus.

1. Being that they were believers, they had been saved, not by John's baptism but b/c they believed in Jesus.
2. Having believed and been saved, they had to go through baptism in the way Jesus commanded it.
3. Paul then baptized them in the name of the Lord Jesus before they became filled with the Holy Spirit.

Ubenedictus:


sorry paul didn't say one was saved before baptism certainly not what Rm 6 is saying. It isn't saying "baptism symbolised what you have already received", it actual says "in baptism you were buried with him" and you were raised with him, put simply, in baptism you received savation.

Sorry, he did not put it or inferred it that in baptism anyone will receive salvation. Baptism is a 'symbol' of one dying and being raised with Christ. The actual event of salvation occurs spiritually before one is baptized physically. When one goes to the water to be baptized, he is not going there to be saved, but to demostrate symbolically or physically his fellowship in the death and raising of Christ.

italo:


It is up to you to answer these simple questios...or be scared of them.

See how simply scholar8820 answered. If it's you, you'll write a meaningless essay and still not attempt the question.

I know my essays are meaningless to you and your group, but meanningful to those with open hearts. Go back and read what I have said about it. Henceforth, I will not answer any of your questions that I have clearly attempted before. I have told you that you read people's posts in a hurry to find errors, without understanding them.

One must ask>You have used the verse, about Peter saying-repent and be baptised. Did you "all did the other religious believers repent when you were all baptised as infants?

italo:


And here you disagree:

Acts3:38Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Scholar8200:

The incident at Acts 19:1-7 was referring to the Baptism with the Spirit quite distinct from being born of the Spirit (John 3:3-5). No one experiences the events in verse 6 at the point of being born again except those who seek for and receive that Baptism.

Acts 19:6
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Considering the bold, remind me at what point did cornelius household experience their own event.

I like it the way you all preach, on believing first then baptism, but you don't practice it.

Syncan:



I cannot fault you at all. What it means is that at the point of your baptism, the required faith is present, such that when you get baptised all is fulfilled. However a faith that does not lead you to baptism is dead, it is not the faith of the apostles, that faith cannot help you.

Pchinak:



Keep running round and round. Considering the bold, remind me at what point did cornelius household experience their own event.

Exactly where I would have gone next.

brocab:
I like it the way you all preach, on believing first then baptism, but you don't practice it.

Do you mind telling me where we don't practice it?

You don't practice it when one is baptised at Child birth, baptised is for the remission of sins. And Children at a certain age as Jesus had said, are sinless. So if you were baptised at birth tell me, how and when did you believe' and what were you baptised into, since you were sinless?

Syncan:



Do you mind telling me where we don't practice it?

Barnabaseloka:

Acts 19:4 Then Paul said, John indeed baptized with a baptism of REPENTANCE, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is on Christ Jesus.
5. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
I say again that they were believers b/c they believed the gospel of Jesus (vs. 1). Here we see two baptisms-John's baptism and the baptism commanded by Jesus.

1. Being that they were believers, they had been saved, not by John's baptism but b/c they believed in Jesus.
2. Having believed and been saved, they had to go through baptism in the way Jesus commanded it.
3. Paul then baptized them in the name of the Lord Jesus before they became filled with the Holy Spirit.

My question was if they were born again, why were they not with the Holy Spirit? See what you said below:

This showed that they were born
again b/c they have believed in Jesus .

Pchinak:



Considering the bold, remind me at what point did cornelius household experience their own event.

While Peter was preaching the Gospel to Cornelius, the Spirit of God came upon Cornelius and those gathered. This happened not because they were baptised before they started but because God saw that they had believed with the heart (as Romans 10:9 shows). Theirs happened because God from Whom all blessings come knew their heart. Here is what Peter had to say:

Acts 15:8,9

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 and put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.


It was after all these that water baptism followed; their hearts had already been purified. Why? they Believed!

Scholar8200:


While Peter was preaching the Gospel to Cornelius, the Spirit of God came upon Cornelius and those gathered. This happened not because they were baptised before they started but because God saw that they had believed with the heart (as Romans 10:9 shows). Theirs happened because God from Whom all blessings come knew their heart. Here is what Peter had to say:

Acts 15:8,9

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 and put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.


It was after all these that water baptism followed; their hearts had already been purified. Why? they Believed!

The Holy Spirit that came upon them, is it the one of born of the spirit or the one of baptism of the spirit?

brocab:
You don't practice it when one is baptised at Child birth, baptised is for the remission of sins. And Children at a certain age as Jesus had said, are sinless. So if you were baptised at birth tell me, how and when did you believe' and what were you baptised into, since you were sinless?

Jesus never said little children are "sinless". He came to die for them too. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".

Anyway, Without beating about the bush, do you mind giving me the number of people in Cornelius household, the jailer's household and lydia's household. Please include their various ages and the scripture passage showing that the minors there were excluded.

Syncan:



The Holy Spirit that came upon them, is it the one of born of the spirit or the one of baptism of the spirit?

Kindly read the reference quoted again:

Acts 15:8,9

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 [size=14pt]and [/size]put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

They were not only regenerated (saved) they were also Baptised with the Spirit:

Acts 10:46
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

Note that before this time, an angel had told Cornelius to seek for Peter who will tell him what to do to be saved meaning Cornelius was not saved before that time but as they heard the Gospel and believed with their hearts, God saw it fit to grant them a double blessing;( purifying their heart and Baptising them with the Spirit) note the word 'and' in Acts 15:8

Scholar8200:
Kindly read the reference quoted again:

Acts 15:8,9

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 [size=14pt]and [/size]put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

They were not only regenerated (saved) they were also Baptised with the Spirit:

Acts 10:46
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

Note that before this time, an angel had told Cornelius to seek for Peter who will tell him what to do to be saved meaning Cornelius was not saved before that time but as they heard the Gospel and believed with their hearts, God saw it fit to grant them a double blessing; note the word and in Acts 15:8

Hahahaha you are indeed trying. Listen to Peter's account on Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
As he began to speak....he had barely started speaking when this took place, They were just even starting to hear the word not to talk of believing in it, as a matter of fact Peter made the clear differentiation in vs 17.
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

So was it that Peter could not withstand God about? Have acts 10:47 in mind.

preetyb:
Faith comes first before baptism. Faith is believing. U cant be baptize if you dnt believe in baptism. Nevertheless we are saved by grace. Many may have faith but may not be save if the grace is not there for them to please God.

it is true we are saved by grace and faith does preced baptism.

Barnabaseloka:

Up till now, you are still hardened in your heart.
Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house, and laying his hands on him said 'Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and, be FILLED with the Holy Spirit.
18. Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was BAPTIZED.

Ananias did not need preaching to Paul again about salvation b/c Jesus had already met him on his way to Damascus. In Vs. 11, Paul was already praying, which I believe was that of repentance and believing in Jesus. This was manifest when Ananias called him 'Brother Saul'. It clearly showed that Paul had repented and believed. The only work Ananias did there was to pray for Paul to see again and to baptize him. Note also that Paul received his sight, was first filled with the Holy Spirit before he became baptized (Vs.17).

In summary, Paul repented, believed in Jesus, was filled with the Holy Spirit and was baptized. Only those who have been saved will be filled with the Holy Spirit and be baptized with water or vice versa.

sorry you are again reading into that passage insead of read out of it.

Annanias said he came to for the restoration of Paul sight and so he may be filled with the spirit, no where does that passage say he was filled with the holyspirit before he was baptised.

Instead the teaching the bible gives is "believe and be baptised...so you may receive the holyspirit the promised of God".