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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? (26559 Views)
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Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 11:05pm On Jun 24, 2015 |
Syncan: 1. Compare scripture with scripture and you'll see that Paul was actually saying that they received the Holy Spirit when they believed...bla bla 2. You lack the Spirit of knowledge and understanding. You don't have the Holy Spirit. That's why you interpreted the verse like that...bla bla 3. I have already answered this question. Go back to what I said bla bla... 4. There is a difference between "receiving the Holy Spirit" and "having the spirit". When a person believes he/she bla bla rubbish...! Choose one! |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Ubenedictus(m): 11:08pm On Jun 24, 2015 |
MuttleyLaff: since I saw my name i'll answer, I prefer ofcuz the baptism of Jesus. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Ubenedictus(m): 11:14pm On Jun 24, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka: If you agree that we die and rise with Christ in baptism then what have you been argueing about? If you agree with paul that in baptism we die with Christ and rise to a new life then why are you in the bandwagon that teaches that baptism is obsolate? And lastly what saves one realistically speaking is grace (granted to us by the merit of Jesus Christ), with faith as a precondition and actually usually given in baptism. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 11:18pm On Jun 24, 2015 |
MuttleyLaff: Jesus: 'baptize with water!' You and your "holy spirit": 'baptizing with water is useless/obsolete.' I don't want that your spirit. Thank you. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Syncan(m): 11:23pm On Jun 24, 2015 |
italo: My belle o. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Ubenedictus(m): 11:28pm On Jun 24, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka:read you bible well. Yes newness of Life IS FOUND IN Christ Jesus as that passage say, rm 6 rightly teach that when we were baptised we were baptised INTO CHRIST, it goes futher to say such a person dies with Christ and rises to NEWNESS OF LIFE. It is easy to quote 2 cor 5:17, and say whosoever is in Christ is a new creation but Rm 6 explain how and where we become new creation it says in baptism we are united to Christ and rise to newness of life. Again I submit that to be born again is to be "repent, believ and be baptised" and it is particularly in baptism that God works the glorious work of grace in us. To be baptised is to be born again, as 2cor 5 say, all in Christ are new creation, Rm 6 explains that it is in baptism that we are united to Christ die with him and are raised to newness of life. The bible has explained itself the stuff you ascribe to "born again" is actually accomplished in baptism. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Syncan(m): 11:31pm On Jun 24, 2015 |
MuttleyLaff: I prefer the baptism that the apostles practiced on ethiopian eunuch, Paul, Cornelius, Lydia, etc. Which one was that? |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Syncan(m): 11:37pm On Jun 24, 2015 |
sportsmaster: @ the bold, Oga, Any one that says Jesus was ever "a sinner" in any guise is not a Christian. I would have just ignored you, but I had to point this out. 2Cor.5:21 never had such a blasphemy. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Ubenedictus(m): 11:51pm On Jun 24, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka: hehehe, this one cracked me up, really? The question was simple, How did Paul receive the Holysprit when his sins hadn't yet been forgiven? This is what happen when on speaks where the scripture didn't speak, the bible never said Paul recieved the Spirit before baptism but you manage to claim you found such claim in your personally manufactured bible, now you were asked how come he recieved the Spirit before forgiveness of sins you are telling me stories. All this na akuko, just answer the question before you start telling stories of how you've gat the greatest spirit with the highest understanding. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Nobody: 12:05am On Jun 25, 2015 |
Syncan: 2Cor 5:21 For he hath made him sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Ubenedictus(m): 12:09am On Jun 25, 2015 |
MuttleyLaff: sorry dear, i was hinting to learning more English because you seem to be messing up a pretty clear passage. I already read 1 cor 10 and it describes the types on baptism in the old testament, it actually wasn't discussing new testament baptism like Rm 6 and 1 pt 3, and it doesn't excuss the fact that you fluffed when you tried to give a partial quote of 1 pt 3. Peter never said new testament baptism is a figure, he instead said the waters of noah Prefigured baptism. Obsolete is not a stigma. Thought I have already responded to this before nowno it just means Useless, and when rites of a covenant become obsolate then we can safely conclude that covenant is finished. Since you have proposed that the covenantal rite of the new covenants are obsolate I am waiting for you to establish your personal covenant. PS: If you havent yet, pick up Chess, you'll learn about vigilance, pick up preemptive, patience, alertness & watchfulness skills etc I actually enjoy Chess in my spare time, have done so since my secondary school days, If we ever meet I'll probably bring a chess board just so you can show your prowess. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Ubenedictus(m): 12:16am On Jun 25, 2015 |
Barnabaseloka:Ananias didn't say paul received the Holyspirit before he was baptised, you are making an assumption. Cornelius was a even totally different issue, they received the Holyspirit as Peter barely began to speak! They didn't even have the chance to believe before they receive the Spirit, peter had barely started speaking when they manifested spirit, even at that he still completed his sermon and baptised them, the cornelius case was special because God simply wanted to tell Peter that even the gentiles must receive salvation. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by MuttleyLaff: 4:28am On Jun 25, 2015 |
italo:Start with how exactly were those in 1 Peter 3:20-21 baptised? Were they water baptised, as in immersed in physical water? italo:You're so obsessed with water, you still dont get it Did you pause enough to think of the meaning & implication of "It is EFFECTIVE BECAUSE OF THE RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ"? I asked because you below shrugged off where I earlier had said, water baptism was allowed by Jesus because He has yet died and resurrected (i.e. He hasnt been glorified yet) with a post saying: "What does it matter whether Jesus had died or not died? Almost all Jesus' recorded teachings were done before he died" Yes almost all Jesus' recorded teachings were done before He died, BUT according to John 16:12-13, Jesus still had more things to say which He left for later John 16:12-13 12“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come italo:Thank you for your answer, waiting for Syncan and Ubenedictus' answers italo:I've replied and answered this above italo:I've replied and answered this above italo:SMH, brazenly you lie like a Persia rug again, Unsurprisingly, you not only conveniently change how things are said but you also enjoy leaving out important qualifying words and like concocting up your version in their place Ubenedictus:I see your answer. Thank you. Waiting for Syncan's answer now Syncan: ![]() You, my dear sire, I leave you with 1 Corinthians 10:2 to ruminate on Thank you all. All answers are in, so now, italo, Syncan and Ubenedictus, please throw light of the following, then compare and contrast them: Moses baptism, John baptism and Jesus baptism |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by MuttleyLaff: 4:28am On Jun 25, 2015 |
Ubenedictus:You started "Whatever Peter said" with "Peter says "baptism save you now" but you would rather teach against scripture that it is obsolate!" https://www.nairaland.com/2383797/saved-faith-water-baptism/7#35065244 Ubenedictus what saves you? Is it baptism of water or baptism of the Holy Ghost and Fire? Ubenedictus:Are you sure obsolete means "useless"? "Finished" doesnt mean it cant be used. As previously mentioned, even consumables get eaten, after going past the stamped on "Best Before" date Ubenedictus:There you go again, you'll wait for ever. Ubenedictus:Looking forward to that |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 6:56am On Jun 25, 2015 |
MuttleyLaff: You are dodging my question and asking yours. 1 Peter 3:20 those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood. 21And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. You earlier said baptism is the picture, while the passage says that "that water is the picture of Baptism. A contradiction! Which water is Peter referring to as "that water?" MuttleyLaff: I didn't see the "it's effective because..." part. what's effective? The same baptism you've been telling us is obsolete? What's the effect? And you're that "spirit of truth" that teaches us what is contrary to what Jesus and the apostles taught by the Holy Spirit. The same "spirit" that makes hundreds of thousands, millions of protestant groups teach contradictory doctrines. The same "spirit" that the Apostle told us would bring new teachings and we must flee from them. Some teach that abortion is good...and say the "Spirit of truth" has come. Some even engage in sexual immorality and say they are using it to anoint the women...with the "Spirit of truth." Some say baptism is now obsolete/useless...and claim to be taught by the Spirit of truth to contradict Jesus who is truth himself. may God have mercy on all of you. MuttleyLaff: Why should I throw light on those? You throw light on them and show us how it makes Jesus' baptism useless/obsolete. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 7:11am On Jun 25, 2015 |
MuttleyLaff: Above is what you said about baptism. Jesus commanded his apostles to baptize and they kept doing it...now you teach us that it is "sentimental" and "ignorant" and "expired" |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by MuttleyLaff: 7:33am On Jun 25, 2015 |
italo:No, am not. It is you, who is italo:On the contrary, no contradiction but so on point. Pity you deflected the Moses baptism, John baptism and Jesus baptism question italo:Very good question and that exactly ewhat am trying to get you find out by yourself italo:Obsolete is not a stigma and if you're truthful and fair, I did say "God has no problem using it" and neither do I italo:You havent learned, that all these steam you've let off, are off point, they wont and dont make a difference italo:because #1 you dont know, and your ego wouldnt allow you to admit it #2 you're intimidated of the truth and so playing hide and seek with the truth #3 you're so OK in your cocooned comfort zone, you dont want to make any effort to step out or away from it #4 you're afraid of heights, so climbing a mountain to see the views is a challenge you cant handle #5 you're having a round of crab mentality, that needs taken care of #6 the list goes on 1 Like |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by MuttleyLaff: 7:33am On Jun 25, 2015 |
italo:What I said there wasnt happenstance, you have chosen not to add the connection to the post I made that comment to. I gave that remark when you posted and asked: "Your point is that Baptism saves, but not water baptism. What then is the use of water baptism?" |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 7:57am On Jun 25, 2015 |
MuttleyLaff: ![]() I already know that the flood water is a picture of baptism which now saves. Scripture says "that water" is the picture of baptism. You contradict it saying baptism is the picture. You still can't tell what Peter meant by "that water?" MuttleyLaff: You said baptism is effective. What is its effect? MuttleyLaff: Yes, they don't. Just like your contradiction of Jesus and the apostles. Makes no difference to the truth. MuttleyLaff: Are these the reasons you can't throw light on all those baptisms? |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by italo: 8:02am On Jun 25, 2015 |
MuttleyLaff:So you're saying 'baptism is only used sentimentally/ignorantly. It is expired.' Same thing. Jesus commanded his apostles to do it. And they kept doing it. But then, you're the "spirit" that is to come and teach new things contrary to truth himself. ![]() |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Scholar8200(m): 8:25am On Jun 25, 2015 |
Syncan:Peter could not have continued preaching after the Holy Ghost came! Those words were recorded because he uttered them before the descent of The Spirit on the gathering, not after! Acts 15:8,9 specifically states that they believed! What did they believe?! And for what intent did the angel command Cornelius to send for Peter?! Is it not that the latter might preach the Gospel (as recorded) to them? Acts 10:44 shows that Peter was still on his message when the Divine interruption took place but it will be illogical to claim Peter did not say all that was recorded! Were those his thoughts? As per the highlighted, its interesting that you appear to be introducing a new (but needless) idea. Peter spoke all that was recorded, the people gathered believed, God saw the faith in their hearts and bestowed a double blessing! That simple! |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Scholar8200(m): 9:14am On Jun 25, 2015 |
italo:Saved and remain with sins is like saying healed and remained with the sickness. Acts 22:16 16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Ananias gave this exhortation to Paul but it did not mean Paul had not done them! He had been calling on the Name of the Lord with fasting (3 days)prior to this time and the Lord confirmed this! (and Romans 10:13 says For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.) Besides, your perspective subtly changes that verse to read thus: "arise, and be baptized 'to' wash away your sins!" This is not true! Each clause in that verse stands on its own and this view is confirmed by scripture. If you claim that wash away thy sins depends on baptism then I can logically say he cant call on the Lord except his sins are washed away , but the Lord Himself confirmed that Paul had been praying when Ananias was sent! Just like it happened to Isaiah, Paul's encounter with Jesus was a time of both cleansing and commissioning: Acts 26:14-18 confirms this. In fact, by the time Ananias was sent to Paul the Lord called him a chosen vessel (meaning he had been purged and was fit for the Master's use) Acts 9:15 15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Ubenedictus(m): 9:15am On Jun 25, 2015 |
MuttleyLaff:lol, it is effective because of the life death and resurrection on Jesus, nobody is argueing that. OUr point is that "IT IS EFFECTIVE" I asked because you below shrugged off where I earlier had said, water baptism was allowed by Jesus because He has yet died and resurrected even after resurrection Jesus still commanded baptism, what is your point? that is you job, you are d guy trying to disprove baptism. I'll not do your work for you. I'll simply say the baptism on Moses was a figure, that of John was in anticipation for repentance. That of Jesus make us partakers in him. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by brocab: 9:56am On Jun 25, 2015 |
Jesus said: Luke 18:16 let the little children come to me, for they are the kingdom of heaven-Why would Jesus say such a thing before he laid His hands on them, is it because He as a child came into the world sinless, just like every other child who is born sinless. Could you shed some light on the new born infants and children under the age, that you believe were baptised under the roof of Cornelius and the jailers household. To make this clear, Since we are both Christians, and to support your theory could you show me in scripture, without guessing' where have you retrieved this Idea, about infant baptism. So if you were baptised as a child who gave the authority for you to be saved-saved unto whom-you didn't make that decision to be baptised. And if you believe you belong to Christ, then why do you worship another? {Mother of God-Queen of heaven} And why do you kiss the feet of the statue of Mary when you enter into the Church? If you believe in Christ, Him you shall serve and Him only-so why do you call Mary your mediator, when Christ is our mediator. So you see-if you want people to believe you are saved in Christ, then at least follow, what Christ has written, in word and in truth. Syncan: |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Syncan(m): 10:10am On Jun 25, 2015 |
Scholar8200: Peter never said the Holy Ghost came after his talk, he said He had hadly started when the Holy Ghost came. I am not introducing anything new, don't dodge facts, Verse 35 tells you that they were accepted by God already But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. It is you who said Peter couldn't have continued after the Holy Ghost came, but You agree that Peter was interrupted, yet you say that all that was written was said before the interruption. This is Peter who possibly stayed more than one day with them, as seen in the last verse of acts 10. The angel told cornelius to send for peter that Peter may bear witness to the teachings of christ and baptize them for their salvation, a function he made sure to perform. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by MuttleyLaff: 10:10am On Jun 25, 2015 |
Ubenedictus:See yourself now, what about before He died and resurrected? Ubenedictus:This is interesting, care to reproduced verbatim, word for word, chapter by chapter, verse for verse, where Jesus commanded baptism, obviously you meant "water baptism" but you're being coy to write it out in full Ubenedictus:On the contrary, I am not brother. Dont know why you find that hard to know and get that I am not Ubenedictus: ![]() Upon all the "I'll not do your work for you" gra-gra, see yourself now |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Syncan(m): 10:16am On Jun 25, 2015 |
brocab: I take it you have no answer to my questions. Ok, a much simpler one, Rom.3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. Does the above scripture exclude infants? I still have quite a number of things to say but I need to see how truthful you are. Please stay in line with topic. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by brocab: 10:24am On Jun 25, 2015 |
So you are making up your own words, very religious. So babies are sinners now, when Jesus entered into the world was He a sinner too. And maybe you haven't got the answers to the above questions, how many babies was their in the jailers and Corniles household. Romans is more on the fact about those who have sin. Even those who believe have fallen short of the sinful nature. Syncan: |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Syncan(m): 10:31am On Jun 25, 2015 |
MuttleyLaff: Ubenedictus may continue expounding on allusions and prefigures used by the apostles to teach. For me, The apostles, obeying Jesus baptized with water and the Holy Spirit's presence was made manifest. In this baptism I die with Christ and rise with Him a new man. I am born again. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Syncan(m): 10:33am On Jun 25, 2015 |
brocab: You see how deceptive you are? So Rom.3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God is now my own words abi. Carry on. |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by Scholar8200(m): 10:42am On Jun 25, 2015 |
Syncan:I didnt say he said so either. Neither does Acts suggests Peter had ended all he had to say! Acts 10:44 shows that the event occurred while Peter was still speaking! he said He had hadly started when the Holy Ghost came.That qualifier is not in the Bible. Acts 11:14 shows that Peter's terms of reference was to preach which he indeed started doing. I am not introducing anything new, don't dodge facts, Verse 35 tells you that they were accepted by God already But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.First you said they were chosen to be saved, now you say they were already accepted! Pray, Peter did not go there to assure/flatter them! He went to ," tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved."(Acts 11:14) It is you who said Peter couldn't have continued after the Holy Ghost came, but You agree that Peter was interrupted, yet you say that all that was written was said before the interruption. This is Peter who possibly stayed more than one day with them, as seen in the last verse of acts 10.Hear Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words... Which? the one recorded from verse 34-43 Now you rephrase the Word to justify your church's tradition! They were soundly converted when they believed and God Who saw their hearts responded to their faith that came by hearing! For the records" Acts 11:13,14 13 and he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14 who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved |
Re: Are We Saved By Faith Or By Water Baptism? by brocab: 10:43am On Jun 25, 2015 |
Babies can't sin-and they can't be baptised for the remissions of sins, either. For all have sinned, those who believe have fallen short of sin. So when you were born-what was your sin, that your parents had to have you baptised as a child at birth.And who spoke for you, to claim you are saved, and answer the question unto whom are you saved? Syncan: |
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