DravenCreighton:


No, but his biological father did, atleast according to christians.

Scholar8200:

The highlighted (1st) alone already shows that Hagar was Sarah's bondwoman hence there's nothing strange if she was sent away.

Yes, second marriages were indeed common but the highlighted superseded that privilege; meaning the mistress could end such union! Else why did every one including Hagar refer to herself as a maid even after Ishmael was born?

Genesis 16:6,9

6 But Abram said to Sarai, See here, your maid is in your hands and power; do as you please with her. And when Sarai dealt severely with her, humbling and afflicting her, she [Hagar] fled from her.
7 But [a]the Angel of the Lord found her by a spring of water in the wilderness on the road to Shur.
8 And He said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, where did you come from, and where are you intending to go? And she said, I am running away from my mistress Sarai.
9 The Angel of the Lord said to her, Go back to your mistress and [humbly] submit to her control.

Meanwhile, my reference to marital covenant was as it concerns the first and legal wife according to God's purpose from the beginning:

Malachi 2:14
14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.

Scholar8200:
Just like the biological father (Abraham) of Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah had to do when he was still alive. (find that in Genesis 25:1-4).

DravenCreighton:


Lol! Why would the bible refer to her as a mistress after that? Contradictions!mthats something thats common with the bible.

So because she was a bond woman, it was okay for Abraham to send her and the child gave to him through her away? I thought he even married this bond woman?


And the verse you quoted speaks of a first wife, a wife in someone's youth, not all wives. That's if I'm to accept everything in the bible.

DravenCreighton:


Had to do what? Please, if he abandoned them as well don't even dig a larger hole for yourself,

Demmzy15:

God's covenant was 'circumcision' and this was done to Ishmael and other men in the household of Abraham, many years before Isaac was even born!

"This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you."
Genesis 17:10-11

So Abraham immediately circumcises himself and Ishmael, the father of the Arabs (Genesis 17:23), thus establishing God's covenant with Ishmael.

You should know that this covenant was applied to Isaac but it was fulfilled through Ishmael!

DravenCreighton:
Jcross19


I have been banned from the islam for muslims section, I don't know what I did or who I offended, I will respond you as soon as the ban is lifted Gods willing if I remember.

Scholar8200:
If you appreciate God's stance towards the marital covenant, you will understand why Isaac remained the Child of Promise and Judah was the direct patriarch of the Seed - Jesus Christ - in Whom all the Nations of the World was to be blessed.

Scholar8200:

So also was Midian, Jokshan, Medan, Zimran etc all who were offsprings of Abraham. The reference through whom the covenant was to be perpetuated therefore had to be specified!

Scholar8200:

Still you appear to be denying the express declaration in Genesis 17:21
21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

Scholar8200:
But contradicting Genesis 17:21
But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

Else would you make a case for Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah? They were Abraham's seed too and they must have been circumcised! God is not the author of confusion!

Genesis 15:4 speaks of a heir- single

Genesis 15: 13 gives a prophecy of what will be experienced by the heir's descendants. No such happened to Ishmael's descendants!Why? he was not the reference!!!

Scholar8200:
Going by this premise you quoted:
It must not be forgotten that female slaves constituted a part of the private patrimony or possessions of a wife, and that she had a right, according to the usages of those times, to dispose of them as she pleased, the husband having no authority in the case.

I may obtain children by her.
The slave being the absolute property of the mistress, not only her person, but the fruits of her labour, with all her children, were her owner's property also.
(Then Sarah's decision to send them away after she had her own son is upheld thereby!.)
I believe the conclusion is perfectly logical!

malvisguy212:
which covenant God established with Isaac?
Genesis 17:23
On that very day Abraham took his son
Ishmael and all those born in his
household or bought with his money,
every male in his household, and
circumcised them, as God told him.

malvisguy212:

Abraham circumcised ishmael as God told him mean God established his covenant with him? Both the quran and bible say the covenant God established with Isaac is the PROPHETIC RACE,

malvisguy212:

Psalms 105:7-10: “He is Jehovah our
God. His judgement are in all the
earth. He has remembered his
covenant even forever, the word
which he commanded to a thousand
generations, the covenant which he
concluded with Abraham, And his
sworn statement to Isaac, And which
statement he kept standing as a
statue even to Jacob, As an
EVERLASTING COVENANT to Israel.”

malvisguy212:

Surah 29:27: And (as for Abraham),
We bestowed upon him Isaac and
(Isaac’s son) Jacob, and caused
prophethood and revelation to
continue among his offspring.

malvisguy212:

The covenant is everlasting one and it's a prophetic covenant, and this covenant continue in his OFFSPRING

malvisguy212:

If Allah intends to include Ishmael, his name would be placed before Isaac, as he was older than Isaac by fourteen years. Muhammed cannot be a descended of Isaac and at the same time ishmael.

plainbibletruth:
[s]I see that our friends have REFuSEd to answer questions they know clearly show the weakness of their position. 

The ONLY son that Abraham had with his CHOICE wife Sarah is Isaac. Even in the Quran Abraham's relationship with Sarah is the one projected; not any other least of all between him and Hagar. 

Why anyone would therefore downplay the child of promise, born through divine intervention, by these two and choose to go with one who was born normally by the maid, beats the imagination, except that these guys have a "logic" they work by. That 'logic' discard clear facts, supernatural hand of God and specific declarations by God. That 'logic' chooses tradition over all other. It's a 'logic' that runs on preconceived notions rather clear evidence. 

For example, "we gave him.......Isaac" and "we blessed him and Isaac" surely ought to indicate to any perceptive mind that there is more to this than the normal or ordinary. 

What many have chosen to do is to re-write history. But somehow history has included in the Quran evidence of the supernatural here and there that should make the discerning SEE the truth. And only the truth sets free. [/s]

Demmzy15:

God promises to establish his covenant with all of Abraham's "seed" without exception:

"And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.."
Genesis 17:7-8.

God now informs Abraham that his covenant shall be given through circumcision, so Abraham immediately circumcises himself and Ishmael, the father of the Arabs (Genesis 17:23), thus establishing God's covenant with Ishmael

. I gave you an example of someone who says: "I love my parents" and then a few days later says "I love my mother." Does this mean that he does not love his father? After Ishmael fulfilled the covenant when Isaac wasn't even born, God then told him to fulfill it also with Isaac since he's a seed too!

Demmzy15:

Yes! Covenant established and fulfilled!

The verse you quoted shows nothing as such. We Muslims believe in Isaac and in fact you're not a complete Muslim if you don't believe in Isaac. Most Prophets were from the progeny of Isaac with one from Ishmael. The covenant was fulfilled with the seed of Abraham which is Ishmael(FIRSTBORN).

Maybe God mentioned Ishmael no one knows because of how men have tampered with the Bible, Jews in Arabia said the truth about the covenant. An example is when God said "sacrifice thy only son Isaac" do you honestly think we're fools. Isaac was never the only son of Abraham, but Ishmael. This is another deliberate interpolation by the scribes and don't know where more still exist. Even this issue at ground, I can't completely win this argument because surely there are still more interpolation which would suite you all.

Demmzy15:

When we look critically into why Hagar was sent away, we find a lot of inconsistencies. In fact the Bible clearly shows that Hagar was sent away even before Isaac was born!

Scholar8200:
If you consider the context above, God was referring to descendant - Israelites that came from Isaac- they were the ones that God reiterated this promise to:

Exodus 6:7,8
and I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the Lord your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the Lord.

Scholar8200:

Abraham was asked to circumcise himself and all the males in his house but GOD specifically named who, of Abraham's sons, HE would continue/perpetuate the covenant with:
Genesis 17:10-12,19
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

As per the highlighted, the covenant was primarily between God and Abraham and after Abraham,Abraham's seed. Verse 19 specifies which seed it was. It will be wrong to say everybody circumcised became a party to the covenant. At that time, servants and their kids were viewed as the properties of their masters.

Scholar8200:

Abraham, the primary focus of the covenant, circumcised himself and all the males under him. You cant say Ishmael fulfilled the covenant since Abraham was alive! Did the other slaves also fulfil the covenant because they were circumcised? Abraham was the one to whom the command came and he fulfilled it by circumcising all the males according to the command.

Demmzy15:


Maybe God mentioned Ishmael no one knows because of how men have tampered with the Bible,

The false pen of the scribe was in the hand of the Jews who edited the Books of Moses, as the prophet Jeremiah bewails:

How do ye say, We are wise, and the law (the Torah) of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in VAIN made he it; the PEN OF THE SCRIBE IS IN VAIN." Jeremiah 8:8

When the Jews are found to convert an Israelite into an Ishmaelite when no motives are involved, then how much easier for them to change the word "you only son Ishmael" to : your only son Isaac!"

To confirm the Jewish sickness in the Bible:

"Amasa was a man's son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite . . . " 2 Samuel 17:25

Contadicted by

". . . and the father of Amasa was Jether (dame as Ithra) the Ishmaelite." 1 Chronicles 2:17

Rilwayne001:


The false pen of the scribe was in the hand of the Jews who edited the Books of Moses, as the prophet Jeremiah bewails:

How do ye say, We are wise, and the law (the Torah) of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in VAIN made he it; the PEN OF THE SCRIBE IS IN VAIN." Jeremiah 8:8

When the Jews are found to convert an Israelite into an Ishmaelite when no motives are involved, then how much easier for them to change the word "you only son Ishmael" to : your only son Isaac!"

To confirm the Jewish sickness in the Bible:

"Amasa was a man's son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite . . . " 2 Samuel 17:25

Contadicted by

". . . and the father of Amasa was Jether (dame as Ithra) the Ishmaelite." 1 Chronicles 2:17

Scholar8200:
Kindly Prove this allegation from the Bible

Demmzy15:

Bro you wan cause trouble ba?

The jews forgot to change Ishmaelite in 1 Chronicles 2:17 to Israelite as they have done in 2 Samuel 17:25 to suit their own desire. dayumm, I don catch them.

Scholar8200:
by Abraham to whom the command came!
Pls this firstborn criteria was never mentioned.Let's leave it out. Ishmael was blessed just because he was also from Abraham but God made it clear who he will establish his covenant with.

Scholar8200:

When did they tamper with the Bible? The Torah was in existence more than 10 centuries before Mohammed came then at what point was it tampered with? and to what purpose since the Torah was in existence and in use all along?

Scholar8200:

Other books of the Bible eg Hebrews written around 63 AD (more than 4 centuries before Mohammed came) clearly spells out who was to be sacrificed and the reason, how come and in what sense was it tampered with?

Some speak of jealousy but were they envisaging Mohammed's coming (5 centuries earlier!!!) and were jealous?!

Scholar8200:

They were expecting the Messiah and that was their hope what then?!

Scholar8200:

As to the Jews in Arabia, perhaps if you appreciate what was said about the Jews when they rejected the Messiah's first coming you will realise that their words should not be brought up here!

Scholar8200:

Consider this timeline:

Scholar8200:

Genesis 21: Isaac was born, Ishmael was 13+ years old. After Isaac was born Ishmael was sent away. Sarah was 90.

Genesis 22: Abraham is tested after the events in chapter 21.

Genesis 23: Sarah dies at 127 years

Meaning the events in the 3 chapters happened within (127-90) 37 years when Isaac being the only one with his father would have grown and year after year will be reckoned as Abraham's only son in the sense of the being only one left with him.

Rilwayne001:


The jews forgot to change Ishmaelite in 1 Chronicles 2:17 to Israelite as they have done in 2 Samuel 17:25 to suit their own desire. dayumm, I don catch them.

Rilwayne001:


The false pen of the scribe was in the hand of the Jews who edited the Books of Moses, as the prophet Jeremiah bewails:

How do ye say, We are wise, and the law (the Torah) of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in VAIN made he it; the PEN OF THE SCRIBE IS IN VAIN." Jeremiah 8:8

When the Jews are found to convert an Israelite into an Ishmaelite when no motives are involved, then how much easier for them to change the word "you only son Ishmael" to : your only son Isaac!"

To confirm the Jewish sickness in the Bible:

"Amasa was a man's son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite . . . " 2 Samuel 17:25

Contadicted by

". . . and the father of Amasa was Jether (dame as Ithra) the Ishmaelite." 1 Chronicles 2:17

Demmzy15:
Bro stop na! you open some people cage o!

Okay

DravenCreighton:

Lool! Saul Alvarez wins by way of K.O.

Lol. I don't even know Saul Alvarez.
Was he one of those scribe that tampered with the bible?

Rilwayne001:


Lol. I don't even know Saul Alvarez.

Was he one of those scribe that tampered with the bible?

Rilwayne001:


Lol. I don't even know [size=14pt]Saul Alvarez.

Was he one of those scribe that tampered with the bible? [/size]

Demmzy15:

@emboldened and underlined, this swearing God talked about can be found in Genesis 22:15-18, now we'll study and analyze that verse critically. Here:

15 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time
16 and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,
17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies,
18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

On a side note, it is interesting to know that the Jews, throughout all of history, had always been an extreme minority [/b]among all nations of the earth. [b]In fact, they are so few in numbers, that they've always had this paranoia and fear that they might just go extinct one day. So most certainly, the offsprings of Isaac, who are what are known as the People of Israel, are not as numerous as the stars in the sky and the sand in the seashore.

You might try to counter this by saying that Christianity and Judaism, combined, are the offspring of Jacob.

My response to this is:-

1-This is not true, because Christianity today is overwhelmingly and mostly made up of people who are not only not from Isaac's bloodline, but are also outside the Middle East altogether. The Isaacs and add on top of them the Ishmaelite Christians and Jews are close to nil in numbers when compared to the total Christian population world-wide.
2- Ishmaelite Christians (Arabs Christians) exist today.
3- Again, Christians from Isaac's bloodline are near nil in numbers when compared to the total Christian population world-wide.
4- The biblical verses clearly speak about descendents of Isaac. Christianity is not just limited to Isaac.
5- Only Judaism today and throughout history declares to be from Isaac and his bloodline.

The descendants will take possession of the cities of their armies:
Furthermore, let me shed some light upon the following quote from above:
"...Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies..." (Genesis 22:17)
The following points are important to know:
1- All of the Jews' wars were limited to Palestine and in Palestine.

3- The Muslims(Arabs) , however, did spread throughout the whole world, and stretched from the borders of France all the way to the borders of China, and they were deep in Asia, Europe and Africa. They are descendents of Abraham, but not from Isaac. They are Ishmaelite.

4- Could it be that because the Bible is corrupt, those who altered the original accounts forgot to alter this piece?

In light of the fables and historical errors above, can we really trust the account about Abraham and Isaac to be true?

This also applies to Ishmael, like I said earlier just because most Prophets were from Isaac's progeny doesn't mean he wasn't blessed!

The Bible has always been mentioning 'seed' even before Isaac was born, it mentioned singularity for only Isaac when in fact Isaac wasn't even born. Ishmael is his only seed as at the time Isaac wasn't born, so when other men were circumcised they weren't his seed!

Rilwayne001:


The false pen of the scribe was in the hand of the Jews who edited the Books of Moses, as the prophet Jeremiah bewails:

How do ye say, We are wise, and the law (the Torah) of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in VAIN made he it; the PEN OF THE SCRIBE IS IN VAIN." Jeremiah 8:8

When the Jews are found to convert an Israelite into an Ishmaelite when no motives are involved, then how much easier for them to change the word "you only son Ishmael" to : your only son Isaac!"

To confirm the Jewish sickness in the Bible:

"Amasa was a man's son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite . . . " 2 Samuel 17:25

Contadicted by

". . . and the father of Amasa was Jether (dame as Ithra) the Ishmaelite." 1 Chronicles 2:17

Scholar8200:
Can you give a proof of the allegation highlighted? And to what end and which nation was Isaiah 10:22 referring to?
22 For though your population, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of it will return [and survive]. The [fully completed] destruction is decreed (decided upon and brought to an issue); it overflows with justice and righteousness [the infliction of just punishment].

By the way,"be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth" was God's blessing on all creation so I'd rather focus on the peculiar specifics.

Scholar8200:

What if I had another point like I already raised?!
Well,you are being here pre-emptive though I wont have raised these points simply because God had already said to Abraham & Isaac respectively:

Scholar8200:

Genesis 22:18
18 and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Scholar8200:

Genesis 26:1,4,5a
1...And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.
4 and I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 because that Abraham obeyed my voice,

And Jacob (son of Isaac) when dying said of the tribe of Judah (whence came the Seed- Jesus Christ)
Genesis 49:10
10 The scepter or leadership shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until Shiloh [the Messiah, the Peaceful One] comes to Whom it belongs, and to Him shall be the obedience of the people.

Scholar8200:

This reply given above is a continuation to the penultimate one and also clears the misconception that the Q&A you gave above suggests.

Scholar8200:

You would do well to back your claims with proofs.Meanwhile,
before we proceed, at what time in history did this occur to Ishmael's descendants:

Scholar8200:

Genesis 15:13,14
13 And [God] said to Abram, Know positively that your descendants will be strangers dwelling as temporary residents in a land that is not theirs [Egypt], and they will be slaves there and will be afflicted and oppressed for 400 years.
14 But I will bring judgment on that nation whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with great possessions.


Are Arabs the only descendants of Ishmael? They spread but did they multiply? The French, Chinese,Asians,Europeans and Africans were and are different from Arabs! That you find a nigerian in every part of the world could be described as spread but that neither makes all those places Nigeria nor does it suggest that Nigeria is the World's most populous! In any case provide your proofs to the contrary!

Scholar8200:

Altered when and by whom in view of what to prove which point? Altered but they will include all the terrible sins and backslidings of their fathers and the captivity and judgement their sins attracted?! Altered but they will include the fact that they were many times unfaithful and were judged repeatedly by a Holy God?! Altered and yet history and archaeology attests to its contents!

Scholar8200:

On the contrary, since all the prophets and kings were from Isaac's descendant, and that all the prophecies concerning captivity and deliverance were fulfilled on same, I wonder what errors are referred to!

Scholar8200:

Then how do you explained God saying specifically to Isaac:
Genesis 26:4,5a

4 and I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 because that Abraham obeyed my voice,

Scholar8200:

But since He is not the author of confusion, God specified who it was that will be taking after Abraham! He did not leave it to specification!