| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Scholar8200(m): 2:42pm On Jul 01, 2015 |
Demmzy15:
That criteria is very important! But God never raised it!
It could be tampered at anytime just not to fit Ishmael. Have you heard of the "Reformation"?! The Bible came 900years after the death of Prophet Muhammad when the enmity between Muslims and Christians was great! The Jews before then might have tampered with it so as to prove Ishmael inferior because he's mother was a bond woman.
But the books concerned -the Torah- was already in existence!
A great deal of the Bible was tampered to make Ishmael an inferior and the Reformation also did tampered with the Bible. One can't explain why of over some 20,000 manuscripts only 73 was chosen!
This whole matter is mostly concerned with the Torah, which had been in use even before Jesus Christ came. I am at loss as to what intent any one will try to make Ishmael inferior while also recording all the many failures and unfaithfulness of Isaac's. Besides if they were going to tamper with the Torah to make Ishmael inferior, then surely they would have edited the parts that shows the world their unfaithfulness too!
You should know that most of Jesus's disciples were Jews. Some believed others disbelieved.
Sure. I was referring to those who rejected Him at His first coming not the ones that believed.
Nothing like that, as at when Abraham was talking to God frequently none was born and even when they were born Ishmael was with him. Islamically we believe Abraham constantly visited Ishmael and his mother.
On what basis is this belief? I mean is there any reference in either Bible or Quran? 1 Like |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Demmzy15(m): 2:56pm On Jul 01, 2015 |
Scholar8200:
But God never raised it! God doesn't need to raise it, it's a known fact. The birthrites of the firstborn is inclusive. Scholar8200:
But the books concerned -the Torah- was already in existence! Uhm mm! They could have been changed during the Reformation, the hatred of Prophet Muhammad was great then to the extend that Martin Luther King called Muhammad a 'Satan'. The changed his name to 'Baphomet' from 'Mahomet'. Scholar8200:
This whole matter is mostly concerned with the Torah, which had been in use even before Jesus Christ came. I am at loss as to what intent any one will try to make Ishmael inferior while also recording all the many failures and unfaithfulness of Isaac's. Besides if they were going to tamper with the Torah to make Ishmael inferior, then surely they would have edited the parts that shows the world their unfaithfulness too!
Jesus came who was the last from the Israelites, while Prophet Muhammad was the one and only from the Ishmaelites.
Sure. I was referring to those who rejected Him at His first coming not the ones that believed. You earlier stated that the Jews could deny anything, this happens even within ourselves when we try to make our tribe more superior than other tribes no matter the consequences! The Jews who don't like Ishmael tried to deviate everything good attributed to him to Isaac. I would have loved to present the story of Jacob and Esau which consists many inconsistencies, but that'll take a lot of time and energy. People could go to any length just to make themselves supreme! Scholar8200:
On what basis is this belief? I mean is there any reference in either Bible or Quran? It was during one of this visits that they both built the Kaaba. 1 Like |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Scholar8200(m): 3:46pm On Jul 01, 2015 |
Demmzy15:
I don't understand the point you're trying to drive out from this! They're in minority and you know it.
But they were not going, by that quote from Isaiah.
This is another contradiction because when you look at my analysis it doesn't apply to the descendants of Isaac who have always been minorities.
This is an opinion except you can prove it with facts.
I don't think so, the descendants of both were blessed but "numerous as the stars in sky" is fulfilled through the progeny of Ishmael!
This is your opinion though it contradicts what God said in Genesis 26:1,4,5
I don't know, we would have known if the Bible placed some emphasis on Ishmael, but that's not the case. Even the little blessings and offers given to Ishmael, they still turned it over.
prove this using this format: promise - turned over thus -
You've gotten it wrong, let's say the Arabs are the only known descendants of Ishmael and the Israelites are that of Isaac. Looking at their population from the beginning of time would ultimately tell you they are minority. When we look at the definition of an Arab, their population reaches 450-500 million. You should know that most of the Jews even found in Israel aren't from Isaac, many are from Europe. They're known as Khazars, European Jews(converts), with this not all Muslims are Arabs. The Jewish population doesn't reach 100 million and the Jews who indeed descended from Isaac are mostly found in Ethiopia!
I need to point out the fact that Abraham was not Noah hence the world was populated by the offsprings of the latter not the former. Meaning there was a growing multitude on ground already blessed by God to replenish the earth. You sound like the two (Abraham and Noah) were the same person!
It still contradicts history, in fact it contradicts itself!
kindly be specific as to how this is so.
No need to go through the back, Isaac was blessed so as Ishmael. But the scribes turned the tables around and we've caught them red-handed.
Yes no problem with the fact that they were both blessed; however God established His covenant with Isaac like He clearly said.
God is not an author of confusion but the scribes are. They deliberately change in order to suite themselves. The scribes did that from the sacrifice to the covenant, they even went further to change some words in Chronicles and Samuel! Specify! The way you are presenting this matter,one will think the Promised Seed- Jesus Christ- and Mohammed were contemporaries! |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Scholar8200(m): 4:04pm On Jul 01, 2015 |
Demmzy15:
God doesn't need to raise it, it's a known fact. The birthrites of the firstborn is inclusive. This is your opinion again. It's the real tampering with the scriptures to suite our purpose, when we make assumptions to fill in the perceived,but non-existent gaps! If it be so,why the silence! Besides Jacob was not Isaac's first born too neither was Judah Jacob's firstborn and the promise passed on to them!!!
Uhm mm! They could have been changed during the Reformation, the hatred of Prophet Muhammad was great then to the extend that Martin Luther King called Muhammad a 'Satan'. The changed his name to 'Baphomet' from 'Mahomet'.
Did you say the Reformation that took place under Luther born 1483, about 9.5 centuries after Mohammed and yet Luther managed to change the Torah before Mohammed came!!! I guess you had wanted to refer to somebody who came earlier!
You earlier stated that the Jews could deny anything, this happens even within ourselves when we try to make our tribe more superior than other tribes no matter the consequences! The Jews who don't like Ishmael tried to deviate everything good attributed to him to Isaac. I would have loved to present the story of Jacob and Esau which consists many inconsistencies, but that'll take a lot of time and energy. People could go to any length just to make themselves supreme!
I still wonder how the history of Israel in the Bible appears to be tampered with to make them supreme! If that was the goal, all their failures , unfaithfulness, relapsing to idolatry like the heathens, prophecies against them in their backslidings, judgement by captivity,humiliation in battle when they turned away from God etc would not be mentioned or would be summarised. Or is it the captivity in Egypt (prophesied in Genesis 15) that clarifies God's reference as to seed, but that also was one of the sore points of their history?
It was during one of this visits that they both built the Kaaba.
Well, I dont know your reference as to this. |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Demmzy15(m): 5:12pm On Jul 01, 2015 |
Scholar8200:
This is your opinion again. It's the real tampering with the scriptures to suite our purpose, when we make assumptions to fill in the perceived,but non-existent gaps! Not my opinion, but the Bible supports that. Scholar8200:
If it be so,why the silence! Besides Jacob was not Isaac's first born too neither was Judah Jacob's firstborn and the promise passed on to them!!! We can't use this as examples because the case of Ishmael and Isaac is exclusive. God placed emphasis on both of them, blessing them. From covenant to sacrifice, they were involved! Scholar8200:
Did you say the Reformation that took place under Luther born 1483, about 9.5 centuries after Mohammed and yet Luther managed to change the Torah before Mohammed came!!! I guess you had wanted to refer to somebody who came earlier! Of course they would have probably tampered with it, picking just 73 from over 20,000. Alterations would have probably been before them, because the Bible itself acknowledges that fact in Jeremiah8:8 Scholar8200:
I still wonder how the history of Israel in the Bible appears to be tampered with to make them supreme! If that was the goal, all their failures , unfaithfulness, relapsing to idolatry like the heathens, prophecies against them in their backslidings, judgement by captivity,humiliation in battle when they turned away from God etc would not be mentioned or would be summarised. Or is it the captivity in Egypt (prophesied in Genesis 15) that clarifies God's reference as to seed, but that also was one of the sore points of their history? When you try and change works you do it with limitation, do you honestly think they'll write a different book just to suite themselves?! Just to favour their progeny, they turned everything upside-down. No one is saying the Bible is totally false, but most of it is corrupted. Infact we don't know some authors, they unknown. Scholar8200:
Well, I dont know your reference as to this. "My Lord! Make safe this territory, and preserve me and my sons from worshipping idols. My Lord! Lo! They have led many of people astray. But whoever follows me, he verily is of me. And whoever disobeys me, still You are Forgiving, Merciful. Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near to Your Holy House, our Lord! That they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide You them, with fruits in order that they may be thankful. Our Lord! Lo! You know that which we hide and that which we proclaim. Nothing in the earth or in the heaven is hidden from God. Praise be to God Who has given me, in my old age, Ishmael and Isaac! Lo! My Lord is indeed the Hearer of prayer. My Lord! Make me establish regular prayer, and some of my posterity (also), our Lord! And accept my prayer. Our Lord! Forgive me and my parents and believers on the Day when the account is cast." (Quran 14:35-41) "And when we assigned to Abraham the place of the House: ‘Do not associate with Me anything, and purify My House for those who circumambulate it, who stand in prayer, and who bow, and prostrate themselves (all in prayer).’ And proclaim the Pilgrimage (Hajj) among people, and they shall come to you on foot, and on every lean camel. They shall come to you from every deep and distant mountain highways." (Quran 22:26) "And when We made the House (the Kaaba) a resort for mankind and sanctuary, (saying): Take as your place of worship the place where Abraham stood (to pray). And We took a covenant with Abraham and Ishmael that they should purify My House (the Kaaba) for those who compass it round, devote themselves (to worship) in it, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer)." (Quran 2:125) The station in which Abraham stood to build the Kaaba is know as 'Maqam Ibrahim' which is still visible in Saudi Arabia! 1 Like |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Demmzy15(m): 5:38pm On Jul 01, 2015 |
Scholar8200:
But they were not going, by that quote from Isaiah. When you read that verse from the beginning, it talks about a future occurrence which be done to the the Assyrians. God was angry with the Assyria King because of their inclination to idols and this was like an encouragement to them. Scholar8200:
This is an opinion except you can prove it with facts. Take a look at Jews today, their population. Scholar8200:
This is your opinion though it contradicts what God said in Genesis 26:1,4,5
prove this using this format:
promise -
turned over thus - This is an analysis to show whether the word of God was tampered and indeed it was changed! Scholar8200:
I need to point out the fact that Abraham was not Noah hence the world was populated by the offsprings of the latter not the former. Meaning there was a growing multitude on ground already blessed by God to replenish the earth. You sound like the two (Abraham and Noah) were the same person! I don't get your point here, but we're talking about Abraham here! Scholar8200:
kindly be specific as to how this is so. http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/cv/scb/scb03.htmScholar8200:
Yes no problem with the fact that they were both blessed; however God established His covenant with Isaac like He clearly said. Covenant was established with Ishmael and later with Isaac when he was born! Scholar8200:
Specify!
The way you are presenting this matter,one will think the Promised Seed- Jesus Christ- and Mohammed were contemporaries! Bro Rilwayne001 showed you one deliberate contradiction. That's what I was referring to. 1 Like |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Scholar8200(m): 5:56pm On Jul 01, 2015 |
Demmzy15:
Not my opinion, but the Bible supports that.
And it is clearly stated when it is to be applied. definitely not in this case!
We can't use this as examples because the case of Ishmael and Isaac is exclusive. God placed emphasis on both of them, blessing them. From covenant to sacrifice, they were involved!
This, for the umpteenth time, contradicts God's clear statement in Genesis 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. This was one of the rationale behind Abraham's insistence that Isaac's wife be sought for from among his relatives but that Isaac was not to go back himself.
Of course they would have probably tampered with it, picking just 73 from over 20,000. Alterations would have probably been before them, because the Bible itself acknowledges that fact in Jeremiah8:8
Against the backdrop of history, kindly specify those parts tampered with. Besides, the time of Jeremiah came many centuries before Mohammed then I wonder how people of that time will jealous the Arabs! Moreover after the judgements prophesied by Jeremiah came and went, the Torah was read and taught by faithful people like Ezra and Nehemiah (you may consider the books as an aid to discover those 'errors'). And the prophets, were they also tampered with? You mentioned some little blessings for Ishmael 'turned over' by Israel; why would those with greater blessings envy those with comparatively little ones?
When you try and change works you do it with limitation, do you honestly think they'll write a different book just to suite themselves?! Just to favour their progeny, they turned everything upside-down. No one is saying the Bible is totally false, but most of it is corrupted. Infact we don't know some authors, they unknown.
Kindly specify such parts. Besides, when you say the Bible is corrupted, I would like to ask, in what respect? Corrupted with a view to achieving what goal? How has that goal being achieved by the'corrupted Bible'? How come the 'corrupted' parts were fulfilled or are being fulfilled?
"My Lord! Make safe this territory, and preserve me and my sons from worshipping idols. My Lord! Lo! [b] They have led many of people astray. But whoever[b] follows me,[/b] he verily is of me. And whoever disobeys me, still You are Forgiving, Merciful. Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near to Your Holy House, our Lord! That they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide You them, with fruits in order that they may be thankful. Our Lord! Lo! You know that which we hide and that which we proclaim. Nothing in the earth or in the heaven is hidden from God. Praise be to God Who has given me, in my old age, Ishmael and Isaac! Lo! My Lord is indeed the Hearer of prayer. My Lord! Make me establish regular prayer, and some of my posterity (also), our Lord! And accept my prayer. Our Lord! Forgive me and my parents and believers on the Day when the account is cast."[/b] (Quran 14:35-41)
"And when we assigned to Abraham the place of the House: ‘Do not associate with Me anything, and purify My House for those who circumambulate it, who stand in prayer, and who bow, and prostrate themselves (all in prayer).’ And proclaim the Pilgrimage (Hajj) among people, and they shall come to you on foot, and on every lean camel. They shall come to you from every deep and distant mountain highways." (Quran 22:26)
"And when We made the House (the Kaaba) a resort for mankind and sanctuary, (saying): Take as your place of worship the place where Abraham stood (to pray). And We took a covenant with Abraham and Ishmael that they should purify My House (the Kaaba) for those who compass it round, devote themselves (to worship) in it, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer)." (Quran 2:125)
The station in which Abraham stood to build the Kaaba is know as 'Maqam Ibrahim' which is still visible in Saudi Arabia!
Who said the above statements? And who was he referring to when he said they(highlighted) |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Scholar8200(m): 6:18pm On Jul 01, 2015 |
Demmzy15:
When you read that verse from the beginning, it talks about a future occurrence which be done to the the Assyrians. God was angry with the Assyria King because of their inclination to idols and this was like an encouragement to them. Rather, it was a prophecy that was fulfilled in Isaiah's day. If you read the whole chapter, Assyria was to be used by God in executing judgement against a hypocritical nation ( Israel vs 6) but his own judgement was to follow too because he was also guilty of pride. In any case, future or immediate, the prophecy does not sound like Israel was an extreme minority like you posited.
Covenant was established with Ishmael and later with Isaac when he was born!
As long as Abraham was alive, God's covenant was with him. He was the one that God called in Genesis 12. The establishment God spoke of was to take force after Abraham's death not while he was alive! That is why it was said thus Genesis 17:7 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.And to avoid confusion,the seed was specified in vs 19-21
Bro Rilwayne001 showed you one deliberate contradiction. That's what I was referring to.
The matter has been resolved using normal principles that are still applicable today. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Rilwayne001: 6:33pm On Jul 01, 2015 |
Scholar8200:
The matter has been resolved using normal principles that are still applicable today. The matter hasn't been resolved; I'm not just ready for your games. 1 Like |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Scholar8200(m): 6:35pm On Jul 01, 2015 |
Rilwayne001:
The matter hasn't been resolved; I'm not just ready for your games. To you (of course I knew that while I typed). No problem though. |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by malvisguy212: 7:18pm On Jul 01, 2015 |
Demmzy15:
Yes! Covenant established and fulfilled!
Lie!! Now you Christians run to the Qur’an, I thought you said it was a fabricated book?! Smh. Read all my replies with Scholar8200, I've explained then we'll.
Of course the Bible wants us to believe it's all about Isaac when in fact it contradicts and shows otherwise. I'm not surprised!
The verse you quoted shows nothing as such. We Muslims believe in Isaac and in fact you're not a complete Muslim if you don't believe in Isaac. Most Prophets were from the progeny of Isaac with one from Ishmael. The covenant was fulfilled with the seed of Abraham which is Ishmael(FIRSTBORN).
Of course, if you use this criteria it applies to both of them!
Maybe God mentioned Ishmael no one knows because of how men have tampered with the Bible, Jews in Arabia said the truth about the covenant. An example is when God said "sacrifice thy only son Isaac" do you honestly think we're fools. Isaac was never the only son of Abraham, but Ishmael. This is another deliberate interpolation by the scribes and don't know where more still exist. Even this issue at ground, I can't completely win this argument because surely there are still more interpolation which would suite you all.
Muhammad(sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) never claimed to be a progeny of Isaac but Ishmael, so this is why I say it applies to Ishmael! which Covenant God established with ishmael? If christians omit ishmael name, what about the quran? Why does it omit ishmael name? By the time God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac his ONLY son, God himself has already sanctions the sending away of ishmael and hagger, God had no hand in ishmael (given birth) but Isaac was the ONLY son God promised Abraham, and it was this ONLY son God told him to sacrifice. ishmael Was the FIRSTBORN but the quran omit his name from the prophetic covenant,why?the covenant is everlasting covenant,THE PROPHETIC RACE, ishmael was not included, two brother(half brother s for that matter) cannot shere the same blessing, Isaac bless jecob but when esau pleaded for his blessing, esau was not bless, WHY? Because the both of them cannot have the same blessing. Can you provide proof that muhammed is from the descended of ishmael? (muhammed genealogy) 1 Like |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by malvisguy212: 7:28pm On Jul 01, 2015 |
Demmzy15:
"And when We made the House (the Kaaba) a resort for mankind and sanctuary, (saying): Take as your place of worship the place where Abraham stood (to pray). And We took a covenant with Abraham and Ishmael that they should purify My House (the Kaaba) for those who compass it round, devote themselves (to worship) in it, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer)." (Quran 2:125)
The station in which Abraham stood to build the Kaaba is know as 'Maqam Ibrahim' which is still visible in Saudi Arabia! according to the verse you quote "and when WE made the house a resort to mankind" the house is kabba and it was Allah who made it. Now, how did the “House of Allah” which was “made by Allah” become a pagan temple housing 360 pagan idols? How can a House of God become a pagan Temple of Idols? Why did Allah allow this to occur to his place of worship? If the Ka’ba was the original “House of Allah” as the Qur’an asserts, then there is absolutely no logical or theological reason as to why Muhammad directed the first Qiblah towards Jerusalem – unless he believed that it was holier than the Ka’ba. Muhammad destroyed the rest of the idols at the conquest of Mecca but left the preeminent idol of the Ka’ba – the Black Stone – untouched. Why? |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by malvisguy212: 8:08pm On Jul 01, 2015 |
Demmzy15:
No one is arguing based on that, my position is that Ishmael got his share because he was the FIRSTBORN and also a seed of Abraham.
No need to mention all this nations, we're talking about Ishmael and Isaac in which God placed emphasis on!
God promises to establish his covenant with all of Abraham's "seed" without exception:
"And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.."
Genesis 17:7-8.
God now informs Abraham that his covenant shall be given through circumcision, so Abraham immediately circumcises himself and Ishmael, the father of the Arabs (Genesis 17:23), thus establishing God's covenant with Ishmael. I gave you an example of someone who says: "I love my parents" and then a few days later says "I love my mother." Does this mean that he does not love his father? After Ishmael fulfilled the covenant when Isaac wasn't even born, God then told him to fulfill it also with Isaac since he's a seed too! yes ishmael got is shere because he was the first born and he was from Abraham seed; Genesis 22:17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. possession of the cities of their enemies, This blessing was NOT talking about the prophetic race, it was talking about how God will bless Abraham seed and MULTIPLY it. And because of this ishmael is made a GREAT NATION because he was from Abraham; Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I HAVE HEARD YOU: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. The first statement from this verse say "I have heard you" meaning Abraham had to intercede for ishmael for his blessing, and God heard Abraham and bless ishmael. But for Abraham, God gave him a special blessing. Here is it: Genesis 17:1 The Sign of the Covenant 17 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make MY COVENANT BEWEEN ME AND YOU , and will multiply you exceedingly.” And this same covenant was established in Isaac: And I will bless her, and give you a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. - Gen. 17:15-16 The covenant promises would come through Abraham's wife (who had not yet produced a child at age 90). Her name was to be changed to Sarah (noblewoman) to reflect this honour. Gen. 17:19, But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto you at this set time in the next year. God promised a son, to be called Isaac, exactly one year later, and through him would the promises go. God promises that he would bless Abraham's seed as the stars of heaven and as the sand on the sea shore. That in blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; This blessing was established in Isaac and not ishmael. |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Scholar8200(m): 11:59pm On Jul 01, 2015 |
malvisguy212:
yes ishmael got is shere because he was the first born and he was from Abraham seed;
Genesis 22:17
I will surely bless you and make your
descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. possession of the cities of their enemies,
This blessing was NOT talking about the prophetic race, it was talking about how God will bless Abraham seed and MULTIPLY it. And because of this ishmael is made a GREAT NATION because he was from Abraham;
Genesis 17:20
And as for Ishmael, I HAVE HEARD YOU: I will surely bless him; I will make him
fruitful and will greatly increase his
numbers. He will be the father of twelve
rulers, and I will make him into a great
nation.
The first statement from this verse say "I have heard you" meaning Abraham had to intercede for ishmael for his blessing, and God heard Abraham and bless ishmael.
But for Abraham, God gave him a special blessing. Here is it:
Genesis 17:1
The Sign of the Covenant
17 When Abram was ninety-nine years
old, the Lord appeared to Abram and
said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk
before Me and be blameless. 2 And I
will make MY COVENANT BEWEEN ME AND YOU , and will multiply you exceedingly.”
And this same covenant was established in Isaac:
And I will bless her, and give you a son
also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she
shall be a mother of nations; kings of
people shall be of her.
- Gen. 17:15-16
The covenant promises would come
through Abraham's wife (who had not yet produced a child at age 90).
Her name was to be changed to Sarah
(noblewoman) to reflect this honour.
Gen. 17:19,
But my covenant will I establish with
Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto you at this set time in the next year.
God promised a son, to be called Isaac,
exactly one year later, and through him
would the promises go. God promises that he would bless Abraham's seed as the stars of heaven and as the sand on the sea shore.
That in blessing I will bless you, and in
multiplying I will multiply your seed as
the stars of the heaven, and as the sand
which is upon the sea shore;
This blessing was established in Isaac and not ishmael. Exactly! Thanks a lot. 1 Like |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by plainbibletruth: 10:48am On Jul 02, 2015 |
Matters ArisingI believe the issue of FIRST BORN has been well dealt with: being born first does not necessarily CONFER any special privilege on that one. Examples have been given of other First Born who became second fiddle. Therefore using that to argue for Ishmael does not hold water. It is clear to anyone with a measure of fair-mindedness that Isaac is more emphasized even in the Quran than Ishmael. There is absolutely NOTHING in Genesis that even faintly suggests that: "God promises to establish his covenant with all of Abraham's "seed" without exception: " Blessings, yes, but covenant, no. In that very passage Abraham brought up the issue of Ishmael BUT God said 'No!' How clear can that get. That is why I had mentioned earlier that those who seek to use the Bible to justify their position shouldn't go there. They'll just simply fall down flat on their faces unless of course they want to use special 'logic' to do that - they'll pick whichever verse or part they choose to and discard or twist the rest. It is possible for God to "logically (and) practically (.............) command Abraham to sacrifice Isaac" because, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, it is a TEST of Abraham's faith in the first place! Even if Abraham had killed Isaac he was convinced that God would raise him back to life - Hebrews 11:"17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back." It was because it was supposed to be a test that it had to be the son of promise or the son of the covenant that was involved and not any other. Those who talk about "inconsistencies", "contradictions", "tampering" etc in the Bible account to justify this Ishmael issue do not appear to me to have specifically shown how. Instead what one finds is that rather than stick to the passage under consideration another unrelated passage is presented by those who want to appear 'knowledgeable' ending up distorting focus. Unless these so called changes can be clearly proven they remain purely a matter of conjecture. The "only son" simply means: the only son through whom God's covenant with Abraham was to be established. Anyone who seeks to rewrite the part of Genesis that specifies through whom God established his covenant will need to ALSO rewrite the entire documentation in the Bible about Israel. If more than Isaac is involved then these people should not just stop at Ishmael but SHOW us how each of the REST of Abraham's sons showcased the covenant. 2 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Demmzy15(m): 9:11am On Jul 03, 2015 |
Scholar8200:
And it is clearly stated when it is to be applied. definitely not in this case! We'll see. Scholar8200:
This, for the umpteenth time, contradicts God's clear statement in Genesis 17:21
But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
This was one of the rationale behind Abraham's insistence that Isaac's wife be sought for from among his relatives but that Isaac was not to go back himself. We need to understand this story together and I'll explain step by step! God speaks about his covenantThis is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee: Every man child among you shall be circumcised. Genesis 17:10 This shows the covenant is about 'circumcision'. Then when we go further, God explains moreBut my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. Genesis 17:21 Going FurtherAnd Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him. Genesis 17:23
COMMENT
I must direct your attention to verse 10 above, where God says "this is my covenant ... every man child among you shall be circumcised". In verse 23 we learn that Ishmael, who was 13 years old at that time (Yeeiii!!!) was immediately circumcised. Therefore, the Bible says -- in plain Hebrew -- that God has a covenant with Ishmael.
Isaac was not yet born!
But wait a minute. A complication enters into the picture in verse 21. Here, God says "But my covenant will I establish with Isaac".
We can't be sure if indeed this is what the Bible says except the source is revisited. Let's take a tour to the Hebrew world, a sister language to Arabic.
Genesis 17:21
V'et b'risee a-keem et YitzchakTranslating from b'risee you'll get "my covenant will I establish with Isaac". But the problem lies when we're to translate v'et , the translators translated it as 'But', which is not true. The Hebrew prefix "V-" (vav) is defined by Langenscheidt's Hebrew Dictionary as a conjunction, meaning "and, and therefore, also, then, yet".So we can see deliberate mistranslation on the part of the translators. Just with the changing of this words it has totally affected the context and meaning. "And my covenant will I establish with Isaac"...... which has a vastly different meaning than: "But my covenant will I establish with Isaac"...The former translation says that there is a covenant -- perhaps even of land! -- with Ishmael, AND there is also such a covenant with Isaac. The latter translation says that there is a covenant -- of some poorly-defined sort -- with Ishmael, BUT the "real" covenant -- especially that part involving the land -- is exclusively with Isaac! Even if the word of God is clear and unambiguous, we can't still trust the translators. Please I want you to research on this also! Scholar8200:
Against the backdrop of history, kindly specify those parts tampered with. Besides, the time of Jeremiah came many centuries before Mohammed then I wonder how people of that time will jealous the Arabs! Moreover after the judgements prophesied by Jeremiah came and went, the Torah was read and taught by faithful people like Ezra and Nehemiah (you may consider the books as an aid to discover those 'errors'). And the prophets, were they also tampered with? You mentioned some little blessings for Ishmael 'turned over' by Israel; why would those with greater blessings envy those with comparatively little ones? The Torah has you know has different versions which totally contradict each, they were written in totally different years with different authors. They include Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS), Septuagint (LXX), Masoretic Text (MT), Samaritan Torah(ST) all written in different eras with some earliest dating to be 9th century AD(approximately 200 years after Prophet Muhammad) Scholar8200:
Kindly specify such parts. Besides, when you say the Bible is corrupted, I would like to ask, in what respect? Corrupted with a view to
achieving what goal? How has that goal being achieved by the'corrupted Bible'? How come the 'corrupted' parts were fulfilled or are being fulfilled? If I start listing the contradictions, no one would gerrout from here. Dem too plenty wallahi! Scholar8200:
Who said the above statements?
And who was he referring to when he said they(highlighted) Ibrahim's Supplication to Allah when He brought Isma`il to MakkahAllah mentions here, while bringing forth more evidences against Arab polytheists, that the Sacred House in Makkah was established on the worship of Allah alone, without partners. He also states that Ibrahim, who established the city, has disowned those who worship others besides Allah, and that he begged Allah to make Makkah peaceful and secure, Tafsir Ibn Kathir 1 Like |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Demmzy15(m): 9:20am On Jul 03, 2015 |
Scholar8200:
Rather, it was a prophecy that was fulfilled in Isaiah's day. If you read the whole chapter, Assyria was to be used by God in executing judgement against a hypocritical nation ( Israel vs 6) but his own judgement was to follow too because he was also guilty of pride.
In any case, future or immediate, the prophecy does not sound like Israel was an extreme minority like you posited. Thank God you noted that yourself, I never claimed they were extreme minority but compared to the Arabs they're minority. Scholar8200:
As long as Abraham was alive, God's covenant was with him. He was the one that God called in Genesis 12. The establishment God spoke of was to take force after Abraham's death not while he was alive! That is why it was said thus Genesis 17:7
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
And to avoid confusion,the seed was specified in vs 19-21 Check my last reply for explanations, the covenant was fulfilled with Ishmael when Isaac was not born and when Isaac was born it was also fulfilled with him. But Isaac indeed had more favour which indeed showed that his descendants had more Prophets than Ishmael! Scholar8200:
The matter has been resolved using normal principles that are still applicable today. My bro said he'll reply you later, so sit tight! 1 Like |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Demmzy15(m): 9:37am On Jul 03, 2015 |
malvisguy212:
which Covenant God established with ishmael? If christians omit ishmael name, what about the quran? Why does it omit ishmael name? I have showed that they refer to Ishmael, so stop asking questions like one FBI agent! malvisguy212:
[s]
By the time God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac his ONLY son, God himself has already sanctions the sending away of ishmael and hagger, God had no hand in ishmael (given birth) but Isaac was the ONLY son God promised Abraham, and it was this ONLY son God told him to sacrifice. ishmael Was the FIRSTBORN but the quran omit his name from the prophetic covenant,why?the covenant is everlasting covenant,THE PROPHETIC RACE, ishmael was not included, two brother(half brother
s for that matter) cannot shere the same blessing, Isaac bless jecob but when esau pleaded for his blessing, esau was not bless, WHY? Because the both of them cannot have the same blessing.[/s] Before I expose your fallacy, give me reasons why Ishmael isn't a legitimate son of Abraham?! E go shock u like shoki!  malvisguy212:
Can you provide proof that muhammed is from the descended of ishmael? (muhammed genealogy) 1 Like 
|
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by malvisguy212: 9:39am On Jul 03, 2015 |
Demmzy15:
We'll see.
We need to understand this story together and I'll explain step by step!
God speaks about his covenant
This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee: Every man child among you shall be circumcised. Genesis 17:10
This shows the covenant is about 'circumcision'.
Then when we go further, God explains more
But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. Genesis 17:21
Going Further
And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him. Genesis 17:23
COMMENT
I must direct your attention to verse 10 above, where God says "this is my covenant ... every man child among you shall be circumcised". In verse 23 we learn that Ishmael, who was 13 years old at that time (Yeeiii!!!) was immediately circumcised. Therefore, the Bible says -- in plain Hebrew -- that God has a covenant with Ishmael.
Isaac was not yet born!
But wait a minute. A complication enters into the picture in verse 21. Here, God says "But my covenant will I establish with Isaac".
We can't be sure if indeed this is what the Bible says except the source is revisited. Let's take a tour to the Hebrew world, a sister language to Arabic.
Genesis 17:21
V'et b'risee a-keem et Yitzchak
Translating from b'risee you'll get "my covenant will I establish with Isaac". But the problem lies when we're to translate v'et , the translators translated it as 'But', which is not true.
The Hebrew prefix "V-" (vav) is defined by Langenscheidt's Hebrew Dictionary as a conjunction, meaning "and, and therefore, also, then, yet".
So we can see deliberate mistranslation on the part of the translators. Just with the changing of this words it has totally affected the context and meaning.
"And my covenant will I establish with Isaac"...
... which has a vastly different meaning than:
"But my covenant will I establish with Isaac"...
The former translation says that there is a covenant -- perhaps even of land! -- with Ishmael, AND there is also such a covenant with Isaac.
The latter translation says that there is a covenant -- of some poorly-defined sort -- with Ishmael, BUT the "real" covenant -- especially that part involving the land -- is exclusively with Isaac!
Even if the word of God is clear and unambiguous, we can't still trust the translators. Please I want you to research on this also!
The Torah has you know has different versions which totally contradict each, they were written in totally different years with different authors. They include Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS), Septuagint (LXX), Masoretic Text (MT), Samaritan Torah(ST) all written in different eras with some earliest dating to be 9th century AD(approximately 200 years after Prophet Muhammad)
If I start listing the contradictions, no one would gerrout from here. Dem too plenty wallahi!
Ibrahim's Supplication to Allah when He brought Isma`il to Makkah
Allah mentions here, while bringing forth more evidences against Arab polytheists, that the Sacred House in Makkah was established on the worship of Allah alone, without partners. He also states that Ibrahim, who established the city, has disowned those who worship others besides Allah, and that he begged Allah to make Makkah peaceful and secure, Tafsir Ibn Kathir wait!!!! circumcision is the covenant God made with Abraham?I will come back to this post but first answer my question first. |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Scholar8200(m): 9:50am On Jul 03, 2015 |
Demmzy15:
Check my last reply for explanations, the covenant was fulfilled with Ishmael when Isaac was not born and when Isaac was born it was also fulfilled with him. But Isaac indeed had more favour which indeed showed that his descendants had more Prophets than Ishmael!
Neither Ishmael nor Isaac could fulfil the covenant while Abraham is alive!!! That is why God said to Abraham in Genesis 17 that he will establish His covenant with Abraham and his seed AFTER him not with him. ANd GOD specified that seed with whom He will establish the covenant after Abraham( not with Abraham!.)
My bro said he'll reply you later, so sit tight!
No problem! |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Demmzy15(m): 9:58am On Jul 03, 2015 |
malvisguy212:
according to the verse you quote "and when WE made the house a resort to mankind" the house is kabba and it was Allah who made it.
Now, how did the “House of Allah” which was “made by Allah” become a pagan temple housing 360 pagan idols? How can a House of God become a pagan Temple of Idols? Why did Allah allow this to occur to his place of worship? Just like how the Jews made a golden calf and worshipped when Moses was away, God reprimanded them by sending Prophet Muhammad(sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) malvisguy212:
If the Ka’ba was the original “House of Allah” as the Qur’an asserts,
then there is absolutely no logical or
theological reason as to why Muhammad directed the first Qiblah towards Jerusalem – unless he believed that it was holier than the Ka’ba. And We did not appoint the Qiblah toward which you were [facing in your prayers] except to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels [as regards their Faith]. Indeed it was a grave test, except for those guided by God (Al-Baqarah 2: 143). And to Allah belongs the east and the west. So wherever you [might] turn, there is the Face of Allah . Indeed, Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing. Quran 2:115 malvisguy212:
Muhammad destroyed the rest of the
idols at the conquest of Mecca but left
the preeminent idol of the Ka’ba – the
Black Stone – untouched. Why? Who told you the black stone is an idol?! The black stone is a meteorite. It was narrated that ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) came to the Black Stone and kissed it, then he said: “I know that you are only a stone which can neither bring benefit nor cause harm. Were it not that I had seen the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kiss you, I would not have kissed you.” 1 Like |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Demmzy15(m): 10:00am On Jul 03, 2015 |
malvisguy212:
[s]wait!!!! circumcision is the covenant God made with Abraham?I will come back to this post but first answer my question first.[/s] That's my final reply, I gave proofs from the Bible so read and understand! |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Demmzy15(m): 10:03am On Jul 03, 2015 |
Scholar8200:
Neither Ishmael nor Isaac could fulfil the covenant while Abraham is alive!!! That is why God said to Abraham in Genesis 17 that he will establish His covenant with Abraham and his seed AFTER him not with him. ANd GOD specified that seed with whom He will establish the covenant after Abraham( not with Abraham!.) Ishmael was a seed after him, a son can't at the same level with his father so he's ultimately after his father, couple with Isaac! Scholar8200:
No problem! K |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Demmzy15(m): 10:05am On Jul 03, 2015 |
plainbibletruth:
[s]Matters Arising
I believe the issue of FIRST BORN has been well dealt with: being born first does not necessarily CONFER any special privilege on that one.
Examples have been given of other First Born who became second fiddle.
Therefore using that to argue for Ishmael does not hold water.
It is clear to anyone with a measure of fair-mindedness that Isaac is more emphasized even in the Quran than Ishmael.
There is absolutely NOTHING in Genesis that even faintly suggests that:
Blessings, yes, but covenant, no.
In that very passage Abraham brought up the issue of Ishmael BUT God said 'No!' How clear can that get. That is why I had mentioned earlier that those who seek to use the Bible to justify their position shouldn't go there. They'll just simply fall down flat on their faces unless of course they want to use special 'logic' to do that - they'll pick whichever verse or part they choose to and discard or twist the rest.
It is possible for God to "logically (and) practically (.............) command Abraham to sacrifice Isaac" because, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, it is a TEST of Abraham's faith in the first place! Even if Abraham had killed Isaac he was convinced that God would raise him back to life - Hebrews 11:"17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son,
18 of whom it was said, "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."
19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back."
It was because it was supposed to be a test that it had to be the son of promise or the son of the covenant that was involved and not any other.
Those who talk about "inconsistencies", "contradictions", "tampering" etc in the Bible account to justify this Ishmael issue do not appear to me to have specifically shown how. Instead what one finds is that rather than stick to the passage under consideration another unrelated passage is presented by those who want to appear 'knowledgeable' ending up distorting focus.
Unless these so called changes can be clearly proven they remain purely a matter of conjecture.
The "only son" simply means: the only son through whom God's covenant with Abraham was to be established.
Anyone who seeks to rewrite the part of Genesis that specifies through whom God established his covenant will need to ALSO rewrite the entire documentation in the Bible about Israel. If more than Isaac is involved then these people should not just stop at Ishmael but SHOW us how each of the REST of Abraham's sons showcased the covenant.[/s] Oremusacttus please offer this OP chilled camel piss and thick 'ogi' 1 Like |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Scholar8200(m): 10:14am On Jul 03, 2015 |
Demmzy15:
We need to understand this story together and I'll explain step by step!
God speaks about his covenant
This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee: Every man child among you shall be circumcised. Genesis 17:10
This shows the covenant is about 'circumcision'. No! A covenant is an agreement between two parties that require obligations from both! There was more to the covenant than the token:circumcision! Circumcision was to be a token of that covenant: Genesis 17:11 11 And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be a token or sign of the covenant (the promise or pledge) between [size=13pt] Me and you[/size]. God and Abraham were the Parties to the covenant; the covenant was to be established with his seed afterwards!!! Genesis 17:7-8 shows the body of the covenant which God said He will establish with Isaac (genesis 17:21) 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Then when we go further, God explains more
But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. Genesis 17:21
That was to take place after Abraham, not with Abraham. Hence God never spoke to Isaac as regards covenant till after Abraham's death!
Going Further
[i]And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him. Genesis 17:23
COMMENT
I must direct your attention to verse 10 above, where God says "this is my covenant ... every man child among you shall be circumcised". In verse 23 we learn that Ishmael, who was 13 years old at that time (Yeeiii!!!) was immediately circumcised. Therefore, the Bible says -- in plain Hebrew -- that God has a covenant with Ishmael.
Not when God said the covenant will take effect with the seed AFTER, and not WITH Abraham and He specified that seed. God is not a confusionist to say one thing and mean another!
Isaac was not yet born!
Isaac was the promised seed mentioned in Genesis 15:4 when neither of the two had been born!
But wait a minute. A complication enters into the picture in verse 21. Here, God says "But my covenant will I establish with Isaac".
We can't be sure if indeed this is what the Bible says except the source is revisited. Let's take a tour to the Hebrew world, a sister language to Arabic.
In times like this, we'd safely stay with Hebrew!
Genesis 17:21
The former translation says that there is a covenant -- perhaps even of land! -- with Ishmael, AND there is also such a covenant with Isaac.
The latter translation says that there is a covenant -- of some poorly-defined sort -- with Ishmael, BUT the "real" covenant -- especially that part involving the land -- is exclusively with Isaac!
Even if the word of God is clear and unambiguous, we can't still trust the translators. Please I want you to research on this also!
If the seed promised in Genesis 15 when neither Ishmael nor Isaac was born was to have descendants who will be in captivity and will afterwards be delivered; there is nothing to research! The truth stares us in the face!
If I start listing the contradictions, no one would gerrout from here. Dem too plenty wallahi!
Alright state just a few.
Ibrahim's Supplication to Allah when He brought Isma`il to Makkah
Allah mentions here, while bringing forth more evidences against Arab polytheists, that the Sacred House in Makkah was established on the worship of Allah alone, without partners. He also states that Ibrahim, who established the city, has disowned those who worship others besides Allah, and that he begged Allah to make Makkah peaceful and secure, Tafsir Ibn Kathir
Kindly clarify, were there Arabs at the time of Abraham? 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Scholar8200(m): 10:21am On Jul 03, 2015 |
Demmzy15:
Ishmael was a seed after him, a son can't at the same level with his father so he's ultimately after his father, couple with Isaac!
Interesting!!! Here you add words based on insinuations to what God had already spoken and clarified expressedly?! Why would Isaac transfer the blessing to Jacob only when he was about to die if they were both in it already? 'After' there means death and not in union one being greater than the other! |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Demmzy15(m): 10:25am On Jul 03, 2015 |
Scholar8200:
Interesting!!! Here you add words based on insinuations to what God had already spoken and clarified expressedly?! Why would Isaac transfer the blessing to Jacob only when he was about to die if they were both in it already? 'After' there means death and not in union one being greater than the other! That's not an insinuation but a fact, remember that Isaac was blind and therefore Jacob stole(permit me to use this word) the blessings meant for Esau. |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Scholar8200(m): 10:34am On Jul 03, 2015 |
Demmzy15:
That's not an insinuation but a fact, remember that Isaac was blind and therefore Jacob stole(permit me to use this word) the blessings meant for Esau. It was already prophesied before they were born. Although Jacob's action was not what God meant. (I know this because same thing played out with Joseph's two sons: the younger was chosen and blessed even when everything was arranged to favour the elder). Hence it will be wrong to remotely imply that God entered into covenant with Abraham with his seed when God clearly it was to be his seed after him (and the seed concerned was mentioned being the one God had in mind in Genesis 15) |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Demmzy15(m): 10:45am On Jul 03, 2015 |
Scholar8200:
No! A covenant is an agreement between two parties that require obligations from both! There was more to the covenant than the token:circumcision! Circumcision was to be a token of that covenant: Wrong!!! Your definition for 'covenant' is out:- "A pact or binding agreement between two or more parties." Wiki Dictionary I clearly explained that more was part apart from circumcision. Looks like you've not being reading my replies! Scholar8200:
Genesis 17:11
11 And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be a token or sign of the covenant (the promise or pledge) between [size=13pt]Me and you[/size].
God and Abraham were the Parties to the covenant; the covenant was to be established with his seed afterwards!!! That seed was present and therefore was fulfilled with him, then his half-brother was later born in which it was also fulfilled with him with salt and pepper added for him. Scholar8200:
Genesis 17:7-8 shows the body of the covenant which God said He will establish with Isaac (genesis 17:21)
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. This was the salt and pepper God added for Isaac, so both fulfilled the covenant with Isaac getting more on top! Scholar8200:
That was to take place after Abraham, not with Abraham. Hence God never spoke to Isaac as regards covenant till after Abraham's death! It's clear! Scholar8200:
Not when God said the covenant will take effect with the seed AFTER, and not WITH Abraham and He specified that seed. God is not a confusionist to say one thing and mean another! You're trying to make this complex, implying things the verse didn't imply. Scholar8200:
Isaac was the promised seed mentioned in Genesis 15:4 when neither of the two had been born! OK I'll agree with you on this, but my position is that Ishmael fulfilled this covenant first then Isaac. Then salt and pepper was added for Issac and his descendants! Shikena! Scholar8200:
In times like this, we'd safely stay with Hebrew! That's why I quickly ran to the Hebrew transliteration! Scholar8200:
Alright state just a few. Maybe next time, I'm already tired sef. This is probably my last reply, looks like no one wants to gree. So I'll just leave it here! Scholar8200:
Kindly clarify, were there Arabs at the time of Abraham? Not the Arabs per se, if you can remember a tribe came and settled with Ishmael in BeerSheba or Paran. He actually married from the tribe. |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Demmzy15(m): 10:47am On Jul 03, 2015 |
Scholar8200:
It was already prophesied before they were born. Although Jacob's action was not what God meant. (I know this because same thing played out with Joseph's two sons: the younger was chosen and blessed even when everything was arranged to favour the elder). Hence it will be wrong to remotely imply that God entered into covenant with Abraham with his seed when God clearly it was to be his seed after him (and the seed concerned was mentioned being the one God had in mind in Genesis 15) Like I said earlier I don't want to go into the story of Rebecca, Isaac and Jacob because it's another big issue on its part. When look critically into the revelation Rebecca got and the way she acted afterwards, you'll be convinced that she didn't receive any revelation! |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by plainbibletruth: 12:18pm On Jul 03, 2015 |
[size=5pt] Demmzy15:
We'll see.
We need to understand this story together and I'll explain step by step!
God speaks about his covenant
This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee: Every man child among you shall be circumcised. Genesis 17:10
This shows the covenant is about 'circumcision'.
Then when we go further, God explains more
But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. Genesis 17:21
Going Further
And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him. Genesis 17:23
COMMENT
I must direct your attention to verse 10 above, where God says "this is my covenant ... every man child among you shall be circumcised". In verse 23 we learn that Ishmael, who was 13 years old at that time (Yeeiii!!!) was immediately circumcised. Therefore, the Bible says -- in plain Hebrew -- that God has a covenant with Ishmael.
Isaac was not yet born!
But wait a minute. A complication enters into the picture in verse 21. Here, God says "But my covenant will I establish with Isaac".
We can't be sure if indeed this is what the Bible says except the source is revisited. Let's take a tour to the Hebrew world, a sister language to Arabic.
Genesis 17:21
V'et b'risee a-keem et Yitzchak
Translating from b'risee you'll get "my covenant will I establish with Isaac". But the problem lies when we're to translate v'et , the translators translated it as 'But', which is not true.
The Hebrew prefix "V-" (vav) is defined by Langenscheidt's Hebrew Dictionary as a conjunction, meaning "and, and therefore, also, then, yet".
So we can see deliberate mistranslation on the part of the translators. Just with the changing of this words it has totally affected the context and meaning.
"And my covenant will I establish with Isaac"...
... which has a vastly different meaning than:
"But my covenant will I establish with Isaac"...
The former translation says that there is a covenant -- perhaps even of land! -- with Ishmael, AND there is also such a covenant with Isaac.
The latter translation says that there is a covenant -- of some poorly-defined sort -- with Ishmael, BUT the "real" covenant -- especially that part involving the land -- is exclusively with Isaac!
Even if the word of God is clear and unambiguous, we can't still trust the translators. Please I want you to research on this also!
The Torah has you know has different versions which totally contradict each, they were written in totally different years with different authors. They include Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS), Septuagint (LXX), Masoretic Text (MT), Samaritan Torah(ST) all written in different eras with some earliest dating to be 9th century AD(approximately 200 years after Prophet Muhammad)
If I start listing the contradictions, no one would gerrout from here. Dem too plenty wallahi!
Ibrahim's Supplication to Allah when He brought Isma`il to Makkah
Allah mentions here, while bringing forth more evidences against Arab polytheists, that the Sacred House in Makkah was established on the worship of Allah alone, without partners. He also states that Ibrahim, who established the city, has disowned those who worship others besides Allah, and that he begged Allah to make Makkah peaceful and secure, Tafsir Ibn Kathir [/size] Even if you choose to put AND instead of BUT you cannot deny the fact that there is a SPECIFICITY to the covenant as regards Isaac. On your issue with conjunctions and your thoughts to revisit the "source"; do you think the emphasis by God that his covenant will be with Isaac requires ANY CONJUNCTION for anyone to notice the special consideration or mention? Look again, remove the conjunction(s) and ask yourself this question afresh. If you are honest enough you must admit that the Quran has more contradictions than the Bible. In addition to this, - it is not chronological - not arranged in any particular logic - has more incomplete stories; some starting from the middle and still not concluded at the end - has incomplete sentences which have to be "filled up" by commentators and translators - grammatical mistakes - etc The Bible on the other hand, has greater clarity in all these areas. The issue of Abraham taking Ishmael to Mecca is very disputable historically. At what age was Ishmael taken to Mecca by Abraham? Was it before or after Isaac was born? Was Abraham shuttling between the place where he was with Sarah and Mecca to see Hagar and Ishmael? Because a number of Muslim Arabs wanted to 'connect' with Abraham as their ancestor they chose to emphasize their link to Abraham - Ishmael. Please I want you to research on this!It is interesting how you pick and choose from the Bible! Even conjunctions! If (and that is a big supposition) like you claim This shows the covenant is about 'circumcision'. and, like you stated, because Ishmael was circumcised: Therefore, the Bible says --in plain Hebrew-- that God has a covenant with Ishmael. when "Isaac was not yet born!" it means straightaway that since the Bible also stated that: "...Abraham took ..... all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him." Genesis 17:23 then all these ones should by your 'logic' be INCLUDED in the covenant. Maybe you should tell us if you believe it is so or not. So, do you think that EVERY MALE in Abraham's house, simply by virtue of being circumcised AUTOMATICALLY became part of God's covenant with Abraham?Another thing you have DELIBERATELY AVOIDED is this: After Abraham, God referred to his covenant and the line God chose to do this through was always Isaac's not Ishmael. You seem to excite yourself with strikethroughs! That must be your way of running away from issues you cannot handle! 2 Likes |
| Re: Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice? by Demmzy15(m): 12:24pm On Jul 03, 2015 |
plainbibletruth:
[s][size=5pt][/size]
Even if you choose to put AND instead of BUT you cannot deny the fact that there is a SPECIFICITY to the covenant as regards Isaac.
On your issue with conjunctions and your thoughts to revisit the "source"; do you think the emphasis by God that his covenant will be with Isaac requires ANY CONJUNCTION for anyone to notice the special consideration or mention? Look again, remove the conjunction(s) and ask yourself this question afresh.
If you are honest enough you must admit that the Quran has more contradictions than the Bible. In addition to this,
- it is not chronological
- not arranged in any particular logic
- has more incomplete stories; some starting from the middle and still not concluded at the end
- has incomplete sentences which have to be "filled up" by commentators and translators
- grammatical mistakes
- etc
The Bible on the other hand, has greater clarity in all these areas.
The issue of Abraham taking Ishmael to Mecca is very disputable historically. At what age was Ishmael taken to Mecca by Abraham? Was it before or after Isaac was born? Was Abraham shuttling between the place where he was with Sarah and Mecca to see Hagar and Ishmael?
Because a number of Muslim Arabs wanted to 'connect' with Abraham as their ancestor they chose to emphasize their link to Abraham - Ishmael.
Please I want you to research on this!
It is interesting how you pick and choose from the Bible! Even conjunctions!
If (and that is a big supposition) like you claim
and, like you stated, because Ishmael was circumcised:
when
it means straightaway that since the Bible also stated that:
"...Abraham took ..... all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him." Genesis 17:23
then all these ones should by your 'logic' be INCLUDED in the covenant.
Maybe you should tell us if you believe it is so or not.
So, do you think that EVERY MALE in Abraham's house, simply by virtue of being circumcised AUTOMATICALLY became part of God's covenant with Abraham?
Another thing you have DELIBERATELY AVOIDED is this: After Abraham, God referred to his covenant and the line God chose to do this through was always Isaac's not Ishmael.
You seem to excite yourself with strikethroughs! That must be your way of running away from issues you cannot handle![/s] |
