darkenedrebel:

did Pele win champions league or 5 balon d'ors?
did he ever win 2 trebles throughout his career.
using the world cup as a yardstick isn't it. that's just wack Nigerian mentality. ✘

winning the world cup @17 is better than all those awards you listed. pele/maradona didn't win ballon d'or because only european players could win the award until 1995 when the rules were changed.

if underachievers like messi, george best, matthew stanley, etc could win ballon d'or, you think legends like pele/maradona wouldn't have won it about 12 times each? come on - messi is nowhere as good as pele.

darkenedrebel:



did Pele win the champions league or 5 balon d'ors?
did he ever win 2 trebles throughout his career?


using the world cup as a yardstick isn't it. that's just wack Nigerian mentality.
same way some people say Messi needs to move from Barcelona & excel in another club before he can be said to be great.✘

World Cup is the biggest trophy in football....

Winning the world cup is one of the prerequisites for sitting at the same table as Pele and Maradona, Zidane and Xavi, Cannavaro and Phillip Lahm.

elampiro:


ZICO IS BETTER THAN MESSI.

IN 20 years Messi would be forgotten.

Defenders of old were even better. Which defender today can match Baresi, Maldini, Stam, Adams, Carlos? DEFENSDERS ARE REGRESSING SEF.

You call a player who went past 5 defenders to score a world cup goal ordinary? A player who flicked the ball over a top defender in a world cup final ordinary?

The defenders were poor right? How players did all these things before Pele? Football had been played 100 years Pele, world cup 28 years before Pele. Why was he who came to do the extra ordinary? Wouldnt there have been people to create better records before Pele when the game had less evolved?



Think.

you are calling Maldini a defender of old? Maldini didn't play during Pele's time.
neither did Roberto Carlos or Baresi.

& no- I don't think Zico is better than Messi.
Messi has faced tougher oppositions & plays in an era of football where the stakes, physicality &, technicality are at its apex.

I strongly doubt Pele would have been as clinical as he was in front of goal if he played in this era.
if he played in the premiership, serie A or laliga

& there are Many defenders of today that can match & even beat the so-called defenders of old..
•Thiago Silva,Kompany amongst others. the defenders of today are of greater quality.

forgotten in 20 years? Messi played in the YouTube age. remember?..
Trust me Messi would be known 500 years from now. ✘

Messi is an underachiever but his trophy count dwarfs that of Diego.. watch the goalpost shift

Nihilist:


World Cup is the biggest trophy in football....

Winning the world cup is one of the prerequisites for sitting at the same table as Pele and Maradona, Zidane and Xavi, Cannavaro and Phillip Lahm.

zidane , cannavaro , xavi and lahm are greater players than messi? I hope I'm misconstruing your post

darkenedrebel:

you are calling Maldini a defender of old? Maldini didn't play during Pele's time.

& no- I don't think Zico is better than Messi.
Messi has faced tougher oppositions & plays in an era of football where the stakes, physicality &, technicality are at it's apex.

I strongly doubt Pele would have been as clinical in front of goal if he played in this era.
if he played in the premiership, serie A or laliga

playing football now would have been easy for pele. medical technology has greatly improved. doctors now see injuries far away before they even come. special diets & advanced work out plans are now parts & parcel of football to keep players in tip-top shape.

& there are Manx defenders of today that can't match & even beat the so-called defenders of old.. •Thiago Silva,Kompany amongst others ✘

pele would disgrace all these defenders without batting a lid. are you kidding me? thiago silva that many players made their whorë at the world cup?

leggo:
Messi is an underachiever but his trophy count dwarfs that of Diego.. watch the goalpost shift

trophy count is high because of the club he chose to play for. even guardiola is struggling to keep up with the achievements he had at barcelona.

messi is nothing without barcelona. at least xavi, iniesta won 2 european championships & a world cup without messi. what has messi won without iniesta?

coogar:


messi has to win the world cup to be mentioned in the same category as pele & maradona. it's becoming embarrassing for him that he cannot win a spoon if xavi or iniesta isn't in the team. maybe argentina should adopt xavi & iniesta or they should change their national team shirt to that of barcelona.

pele is greater than messi....
people talking about the level of footie in pele's time. it was more difficult then than now. there was no player substitution when pele played & a career-ending tackle from behind was perfectly legal.

would messi survive in the 60s/70s when pele played? i doubt it. today's footballers are too soft to cope with what footballers of yore faced. the only world cup pele failed to win was in 1966 & portugal came out all to injure him in the game. the tackles are on youtube....if such is attempted these days, the offender would go to prison!

I think you should show them video clips of Ron "Chopper" Harris and Norman "Bite yer legs" Hunter from the 60s.
While it is true that team defending has improved, individual defending has worsened especially over the last decade and almost all forms of tough tackling have been outlawed.
Messi would have had a career ending injury at age 21 if he had played in the 60s, football and footballers are so much softer now.
The Battles of Berne,Santiago e.t.c tell us that

coogar:


playing football now would have been easy for pele. medical technology has greatly improved. doctors now see injuries far away before they even come. special diets & advanced work out plans are now parts & parcel of football to keep players in tip-top shape.



pele would disgrace all these defenders without batting a lid. are you kidding me? thiago silva that muller made his whorë at the world cup?

hehe...

how come I don't get a cardiac murmur or quivering of the heart whenever I watch his clips.

he just seems plain to me save for his goalscoring ability.

I think he is seriously over-hyped.. like 2pac. ✘

afrodoc2:


I think you should show them video clips of Ron "Chopper" Harris and Norman "Bite yer legs" Hunter from the 60s.
While it is true that team defending has improved, individual defending has worsened especially over the last decade and almost all forms of tough tackling have been outlawed.
Messi would have had a career ending injury at age 21 if he had played in the 60s, football and footballers are so much softer now.
The Battles of Berne,Santiago e.t.c tell us that

all forms of tackling have been removed from the game. pulling an opponent's shirt is a yellow card these days while gentile tore maradona's shirt into pieces in 82 without getting carded.

van basten had to retire prematurely because of injuries. footballers these days are in paradise. messi wouldn't have survived in 50s/60s. the gh-therapy he had as a kid so that his bones could develop wasn't in exist de in the 60s. messi would have been a midget like aki & pawpaw had he been born in the 60s

coogar:


trophy count is high because of the club he chose to play for. even guardiola is struggling to keep up with the achievements he had at barcelona.

messi is nothing without barcelona. at least xavi, iniesta won 2 european championships & a world cup without messi. what has messi won without iniesta?

And maradona played with 10 other sticks eh? Napoli went on the equivalent of the spree City embarked upon a few years back , you think its a joke to fork out a world record fee ? in his first year in Napoli he wasn't even rated as the best player in the team

darkenedrebel:


you are calling Maldini a defender of old? Maldini didn't play during Pele's time.

& no- I don't think Zico is better than Messi.
Messi has faced tougher oppositions & plays in an era of football where the stakes, physicality &, technicality are at it's apex.

I strongly doubt Pele would have been as clinical in front of goal if he played in this era.
if he played in the premiership, serie A or laliga

& there are Manx defenders of today that can't match & even beat the so-called defenders of old..
•Thiago Silva,Kompany amongst others ✘

Lol this is a joke.

Looking at the Super Eagles alone....You can't see machines like Taribo West and Uche Okechukwu again...Instead it's milky boys likeOmeruo and Oboabona

The defenders in the 60's, 70's and 80's were brutal thugs. If they missed the ball, they would not miss your head. You had people like Andoni the Butcher that nearly killed Maradona with a tackle from behind(and saved the boot he used to do it in a glass case) and Graeme Souness running round kicking people in the balls.

Those were the days of man to man defending...unlike the Zonal marking today.

Nihilist:


World Cup is the biggest trophy in football....

Winning the world cup is one of the prerequisites for sitting at the same table as Pele and Maradona, Zidane and Xavi, Cannavaro and Phillip Lahm.

so what you are trying to say is that Messi isn't in the echelon & can't be mentioned in the same sentence with Philip Lahm & Cannavaro?


Jesus Navas has won the world cup.
Jerome Boateng is also a world cup winner..
read in between the lines.

world cup is not a determinant. ✘

leggo:

zidane , cannavaro , xavi and lahm are greater players than messi? I hope I'm misconstruing your post

You are misconstruing it.
When the greatest ever players are being assessed the World Cup is the "Ultimate Divider". Cannavaro,Lahm and Xavi are not on that list.
The World Cup is the main reason Cruyff and Di Stefano are rated below Pele and Maradona.
Alfredo ruled the 50s and won 5 STRAIGHT EUROPEAN CUPS (scoring in all 5 finals), Cruyff won 3 STRAIGHT EUROPEAN CUPS in the 70s.......neither won the World Cup.
If Messi does not win the world cup, in decades to come he will be placed at the level of those 2......below Pele and Maradona.

darkenedrebel:

so what you are trying to say is that Messi isn't in the echelon & can't be mentioned in the same sentence with Philip Lahm & Cannavaro?
Jesus Navas has won the world cup.
Jerome Boateng is also a world cup winner..
read in between the lines.
world cup is not a determinant. ✘

leggo:

zidane , cannavaro , xavi and lahm are greater players than messi? I hope I'm misconstruing your post

Nihilist:

World Cup is the biggest trophy in football....
Winning the world cup is one of the prerequisites for sitting at the same table as Pele and Maradona, Zidane and Xavi, Cannavaro and Phillip Lahm.

I split it into forwards, midfielders, and defenders for easier understanding.

Messi is a forward, and will be compared against Pele and Maradona....and yes he is not yet on their level.

leggo:

And maradona played with 10 other sticks eh? Napoli went on the equivalent of the spree City embarked upon a few years back , you think its a joke to fork out a world record fee ? in his first year in Napoli he wasn't even rated as the best player in the team

maradona actually played with sticks. maradona chose to play for napoli, not the other way round. big clubs begged for his signature but he chose a lower tier team & he proved his worth there. it's easy to win trophies when you play for a big team.

compare oshea's league titles to gerrard. in the near future, someone would opine o'shea is better than gerrard cos oshea won more league titles. abeg, what maradona did in 86 is unrivalled. he was the heartbeat of that argentine team - he provided 5 goals + 5 assists in the number 10 position.

coogar:


all forms of tackling have been removed from the game. pulling an opponent's shirt is a yellow card these days while gentile tore maradona's shirt into pieces in 82 without getting carded.

van basten had to retire prematurely because of injuries. footballers these days are in paradise. messi wouldn't have survived in 50s/60s. the gh-therapy he had as a kid so that his bones could develop wasn't in exist de in the 60s. messi would have been a midget like aki & pawpaw had he been born in the 60s

Ifs, buts..
Why would anyone bring up a scenario where messi is basically handicapped? we are comparing peak performances here and all you have said about rough defending is actually recent history, I have not seen any outrageous 'foul' on Pele go unpunished. please give me a link and let me be informed

well...I wasn't born in Pele's time.
I can only judge from video clips online & from what I've seen Maradonna was a better player.

I also strongly believe Messi plays better than both of them did.

Messi is also gonna win the world cup & that would be the end of the discourse.✘

Nihilist:







I split it into forwards, midfielders, and defenders for easier understanding.

Messi is a forward, and will be compared against Pele and Maradona....and yes he is not yet on their level.

Is Pele better than Christiano Ronaldo? ✘

darkenedrebel:


Is Pele better than Christiano Ronaldo? ✘

Is that in doubt?

Dinamo Zagreb completes signing of Henriquez...
so piss

Nihilist:


Is that in doubt?

let's be honest.. Ronaldo plays better than he did.
this is coming from a Barcelona supporter


people just tend to over-hype oldies✘

darkenedrebel:
well...I wasn't born in Pele's time.
I can only judge from video clips online & from what I've seen Maradonna was a better player.

I also strongly believe Messi plays than both of them.
Messi is also gonna the world cup & that would be the end of the discourse.✘

When Messi wins the world cup as a star ( and not like Abby Wambach) he will join the discussion........UNTIL then he should line up in GOAT Tier 2 with Don Alfredo, Cruyff et al. He is a great player no doubt and the flavor of the day/month/year but in years/decades to come not winning the world cup would count against him.

leggo:

Ifs, buts..
Why would anyone bring up a scenario where messi is basically handicapped? we are comparing peak performances here and all you have said about rough defending is actually recent history, I have not seen any outrageous 'foul' on Pele go unpunished. please give me a link and let me be informed

go and watch 1966 world cup against portugal. watch 70 world cup against uruguay. pele was nearly murdered in those games. back then, a player couldn't be substituted so you must carry on.

abeg, forget messi!
he's not in the same league as maradona & pele or even the fat ronaldo that won ballon d'or at the age of 20. these ones did it for club & country. it didn't matter who they have in their team.....they always delivered.

messi @ barcelona - 110% good
messi @ argentina - 20% good.

the difference is ridiculous!

coogar:


maradona actually played with sticks. maradona chose to play for napoli, not the other way round. big clubs begged for his signature but he chose a lower tier team & he proved his worth there. it's easy to win trophies when you play for a big team.

compare oshea's league titles to gerrard. in the near future, someone would opine o'shea is better than gerrard cos oshea won more league titles. abeg, what maradona did in 86 is unrivalled. he was the heartbeat of that argentine team - he provided 5 goals + 5 assists in the number 10 position.

really? he had a defence that conceded just 5 goals in the WC and he played with sticks? LOL..So valdano was an average player?
his Napoli team conceded the fewest goals in the league and he scored 14 goals if I'm right? if I were to dissect this record as we always do our United players you would call him poor.

darkenedrebel:


let's be honest.. Ronaldo plays better than he did.
this is coming from a Barcelona supporter


people just tend to over-hype oldies✘

I am a huge CR7 fan myself...but
***************************************
Pele: 7 x League Title, 2 x Continental Champion

Ronaldo: 4 x League Title, 2 x Continental Champion
**********************************************
Pele: World Cup wins 1958, 1962 & 1970

Ronaldo: None
***********************************************
Pele: 757 Goals(No friendlies)

Ronaldo: 468 Goals
**********************************************
It's not even debatable.

Nihilist:







I split it into forwards, midfielders, and defenders for easier understanding.

Messi is a forward, and will be compared against Pele and Maradona....and yes he is not yet on their level.

apart from the fact that it is ludicrous to consider lahm the GOAT of full backs, the rest is plain ridiculous.

leggo:

apart from the fact that it is ludicrous to consider lahm the GOAT of full backs, the rest is plain ridiculous.

You seem to have a problem with English comprehension.
What part of that post implies that Lahm is the greatest full back of all time?

Nihilist:


You seem to have a problem with English comprehension.
What part of that post implies that Lahm is the greatest full back of all time?

you have a problem with continuity ,out of all the names that have been floated today who has mentioned someone who is not regarded in some quarters as the greatest ever in a capacity( overall or in a specific position)

leggo:

you have a problem with continuity ,out of all the names that have been floated today who has mentioned someone who is not regarded in some quarters as the greatest ever in a capacity( overall or in a specific position)

Dude I'm only responsible for what I type, and not what you comprehend

I listed examples of some of the true greats of the game...who have won everything there is to win at club level...with the added distinction of winning the world cup.
I could have listed Thierry Henry instead of Pele/Maradona, Pirlo instead Xavi/Zidane, or Cafu instead of Lahm\Cannavaro.

The point is simple. You need to win the World Cup first before you can stake your claim as the greatest...until then, sit at the next table

Nihilist:

Dude I'm only responsible for what I type, and not what you comprehend

I listed examples of some of the true greats of the game...who have won everything there is to win at club level...with the added distinction of winning the world cup.
I could have listed Thierry Henry instead of Pele/Maradona, Pirlo instead Xavi/Zidane, or Cafu instead of Lahm\Cannavaro.

The point is simple. You need to win the World Cup first before you can stake your claim as the greatest...until then, sit at the next table

I'm telling you as a matter of fact that you are ridiculous to call lahm a true great of the game if messi is on table two

darkenedrebel:


you are calling Maldini a defender of old? Maldini didn't play during Pele's time.
neither did Roberto Carlos or Baresi.

& no- I don't think Zico is better than Messi.
Messi has faced tougher oppositions & plays in an era of football where the stakes, physicality &, technicality are at its apex.

I strongly doubt Pele would have been as clinical as he was in front of goal if he played in this era.
if he played in the premiership, serie A or laliga

& there are Many defenders of today that can match & even beat the so-called defenders of old..
•Thiago Silva,Kompany amongst others. the defenders of today are of greater quality.

forgotten in 20 years? Messi played in the YouTube age. remember?..
Trust me Messi would be known 500 years from now. ✘

I have pulled out the best defenders of all time. None played in Messi `s era.

Even Lucio that is not as good as the previous legends locked out Messi even when Inter fell to 10 men. I wonder what would have happened if he faced Beckenbauer, Baresi, Maldini. And the rest in top 10 from Pele's era.

leggo:

I'm telling you as a matter of fact that you are ridiculous to call lahm a true great of the game if messi is on table two

You are irredeemably dull.

Why stop at comparing Lahm to Messi...why not compare Messi to Oliver Kahn?